A Different Angle on the Bill Nye & Ken Ham Debate

A Different Angle on the Bill Nye & Ken Ham Debate

darwin-quoteMatt Stopera of Buzzfeed wrote an interesting photo-blog, Messages from Creationists to People Who Believe in Evolution.  Creationists who attended the recent debate between Bill Nye, the Science Guy (television show) and Ken Ham, head of the Creation Museum (in Kentucky) were photographed with messages they wrote on a notepad.

In Ken Ham’s opening statement, he said, “The word ‘science’ has been hijacked by secularists in teaching evolution to force the religion of naturalism on generations of kids… Public school textbooks are using the same word ‘science’ for observational science and historical science.  They arbitrarily define ‘science’ as naturalism and outlaw the supernatural.”

In Bill Nye’s opening statement, he said, “Natural laws that applied in the past apply now… Billions of people [creationists] do not embrace Ken Ham’s model.”

As tempting as it is to dive into the meat and potatoes of this debate, the purpose of this blog is not to analyze or provide commentary on the debate.  Perhaps one day I will write that blog.  For today, I’d like to analyze some of the messages that the creationists who attended the event wrote.  In particular, my comments are directed toward those creationists who believe in the doctrine of eternal torment, creationists, like Stuart Burgess, a scientist cited in Ken Ham’s opening statement, who tell children they will go to hell if they believe the theory of evolution (Burgess admitted to doing just that during an interviewed on BBC regional TV).

Bill Nye, are you influencing the minds of children in a positive way?

Are you influencing children in a positive way when you tell them many of their family and friends will spend eternity in torment in hell?

Are you scared of a Divine Creator?

Are you scared of a divine creator who created a place of eternal torment for the majority of humanity?

Is it completely illogical that the earth was created mature? i.e. trees with rings… Adam created as an adult…

Why would God create a world that seems to be extremely old but isn’t?  If the eternal destiny of the human race depends on believing in a literal young earth creation, why would God confuse people with conflicting evidence about the age of the earth?

Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove evolution?

Does not the second law of thermodynamics disprove the concept of a literal eternal burning hell?  Suppose you answer no.  Then doesn’t this mean that God subverts the laws of nature in order to ensure hell keeps burning?  What does this tell you about God?

If God did not create everything, how did the first single-celled organism originate?  By chance?

If God did create everything, why did he create the first single-celled organism, or anything at all for that matter?  Wouldn’t it have been better to create nothing at all than to create the potential for billions upon billions of people to experience an eternity of torment?

How can you look at the world and not believe someone created/thought of it? It’s Amazing!!!

How can you look at the amazing world and believe someone created/thought of it with the premeditated purpose of destroying it and subjecting the majority of its sentient life forms to eternal torment in hell?  In addition, how can you look at the doctrine of eternal torment in hell and believe that a loving, righteous God created/thought of it?  Amazing, indeed.

(You can view the debate here.)

Related blog posts:

Why I Am Not a Creationist, Even Though I Believe in the God Who Created Everything – Guest Blogger, Mary Vanderplas

The Truth of the Tree

Hawking and MacArthur Explain the Universe

Church 2.0

Dream Machines

Ten Observations from Athiests (Part One)

Ten More Observations from Atheists (Part Two)

Five Final Observations from Atheists (Part Three)

Audio/Visual Revelation

First or Last

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas February 6, 2014 at 6:12 am

    I agree with your critique of those who embrace a creationist stance while at the same time subscribing to the doctrine of eternal torment. I think you’re right on in what you say and imply about the inconsistencies of asserting belief in a good and loving God who created all things (which, in my view, is not incompatible with acceptance of the scientific theory of evolution) and asserting belief in a God who torments the unrighteous eternally (punishing beyond measure). And I agree that the picture of God suggested by the views of young-Earth creationists in particular – i.e., acting to deceive by creating a world that appears vastly older than it is – is inconsistent with the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

    • Mary Vanderplas February 7, 2014 at 5:17 am

      The argument, made by some creationists, that evolution is disproved by the second law of thermodynamics is invalid. This law of science applies only to closed systems, which Earth is not because it receives energy from the sun. There is nothing to preclude the possibility of life and the development of increasingly complex life forms on Earth.

      Nonetheless, I think you make a good point in challenging creationists who embrace eternal torment about the second law of thermodynamics disproving an eternal burning hell (because the universe is a closed system and the second law of thermodynamics applies to the universe). And I like what you say about it being hard to reconcile the loving God (revealed in scripture and in Jesus Christ) with a God who acts to subvert natural laws for the purpose of making possible the eternal torment of his creatures.

  • Stephen Helbig February 6, 2014 at 11:24 am

    I too was able to watch this debate and found it “interesting”, so to speak, and my thoughts at the end were ~ “ we’ve come a long way baby” ~ LOL

    What I continue to see as a result is this, ~ a WONDERFUL PROGRESSION thru the ages in our quest for truth, ~ And as I was able to see truth on both sides, however more was found on Nyes platform than Hams concerning this progression; ~ Frankly, I’d rather my Christian kids learn about the theory of evolution than being cajoled by a young-earth Christian teacher into having a slanted understanding of God’s Earth. In that, I agree with Bill Nye, it would be scary.

    p.s. ~ True science and true religion are always in alignment for both issue from the same source of TRUTH. ~ Conflict, folly and debate occur when proponents deviate and misunderstand Truth, or confuse human thinking with Divine Truth. ~ Real truth, if pursued, always reveals our God, our Source irrespective of where inquiry begins,
    for God is Truth. ~ Truth reflects (our God). ~ If it does not eventually do this reflecting, it is not truth. ~ Hence ~ In Whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge (Col. 2:3).

    p.s. ~ I am the TRUTH. No man cometh unto the Father but by me (John 14:6). ~ Truth is part of Sovereign Infinity. Thus the attributes of absolute Truth, absolute Knowledge, absolute Principle, and absolute Capability are God’s, (His, hers, …?), to disperse as (He, she,…?) pleases and thus dictates ~ “All SHALL KNOW ME.” ~ Aren’t you glad!

    p.s.s. ~ Mary Vanderplas Guest Blog ~ Why I Am Not a Creationist, Even Though I Believe in the God Who Created Everything ~ IS WORTH A RE-READ ~ 🙂

    p.s.s.t. ~ The greatest is LOVE ~ SEE ~ 1 Corinthians Chapter 13
    “The Love for ALL Living Creatures is the most noble attribute of man” ~ Charles

    • admin February 6, 2014 at 10:58 pm

      Yes, Mary did write an awesome guest blog. I’ve read it several times over.

    • Lanny A. Eichert February 9, 2014 at 12:20 am

      Stephen, Mary, Alice, have you forgotten we, humans, made in the image of God exercise our creativity by manufacturing things and in doing so produce waste which we discard into the air, streams, and garbage dumps; because we follow our Example, Jesus Christ, our God. It is no accident that in the process of making saints fit for living with Him, God uses unbelievers to mold His saints contrary to the world. All those tools, particular unbelievers, are useless once His saints are complete, so just as we discard garbage, so does God; and there’s no love lost for garbage. It is eternally burned under His scrutiny; they are worthy of eternal fire and they are non-recyclables.

      “The Love for ALL Living Creatures is the most noble attribute of man” ~ Charles

      Charles is not God by any stretch of the imagination. God’s gone on record saying otherwise than Charles.

      The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. {Psalm 11: 5, 6}

      • Lanny A. Eichert February 9, 2014 at 12:35 am

        And see, there is no qualifier before portion such as temporary, just a declarative statement that this shall be the portion of their cup. That future is undeniably their future, their future, their future.

      • Mary Vanderplas February 15, 2014 at 5:35 am

        What stands to be trashed are not image-bearers of the living God, but only your perverse doctrine and the attitude of loathing toward and diminishment of fellow human beings that such thinking spawns. Wake up and smell the coffee: God is love.

        • Lanny A. Eichert February 18, 2014 at 7:34 pm

          Mary, the majority of image-bearers die and burn forever in the Lake of Fire is a fact to be faced because they are of no further value, in other word, they are useless trash. Face reality without the coffee drug.

  • Lanny A. Eichert February 6, 2014 at 1:21 pm

    Alice, you just will not leave well enough alone, but have to promote your heresy that God reconciles every moral creature including Satan himself and his evil angels. Yet your favorite translation makes that impossible translating the same word used of God’s power, eternal, as it does of the bonds of evil angels, everlasting. See YLT at Romans 1: 20 and Jude 6.

    to a judgment of a great day, in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept

    They are kept in ignorance (darkness), “chained” forever, never to be free and never to be further enlightened. That doesn’t sound like God has any intention of reconciling them to a state of bliss, does it to you? The Greek word is ἀϊδίοις used in both Romans and Jude.

    Again I tell you your heresy has the big problem of Jesus not paying the full penalty of the sins of those who physically die in unbelief. I recently heard a preacher say, “I do know that Jesus said that after paying the utmost farthing they would get out, that’s what He says, after paying the uttermost farthing they would get out; and that’s the picture that we have.” Well, Alice, this is what I wrote to him: So do you really believe the SINNER must PAY the uttermost farthing to get out of the Lake of Fire and he will get out because he, the SINNER, will pay it? Is that the picture Jesus painted in Matthew 5: 25 & 26? Reconciled by WHAT? Alice, I further wrote to him: In your picture, even if your sinner were able, at some point after suffering for ages upon ages, to claim the blood of Jesus, then that sinner will have paid PART of the penalty of his sins, and perhaps most of it, leaving Jesus to pay the last little bit of it. Does your Jesus make up the difference even in the after-life? Sounds Mormonish to me; does it to you? The uttermost farthing is the very last penny, which maybe you have Jesus paying once the ages-long-suffering sinner finally claims His blood. So since the vast majority of humanity physically die in unbelief, your Jesus died for only the last pennies of their guilt. Is that the way it works?

    So, Alice, did Jesus die for pennies?

  • Stephen Helbig February 9, 2014 at 1:36 am

    It is a great reproach, though unjust to religion, when those who profess it are opposed to it in heart and life. The Lord will remedy this in his time and way, and just as raging waves seem a terror to sailing passengers one must realize this , ~ When one gets to port, the noise and terror are ended.

    In this book of Jude we are exhorted ~ not speak evil of those things which “we know not”. ~ ”or blinded to ” ~ These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage. (vs 16)

    p.s. ~ continue ~ But you, dear friends, as you build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in THE LOVE OF GOD ~ EXPECTING the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life. Have mercy on those who doubt; save others by snatching them from the fire; have mercy on others but with fear, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh. (vs. 20-23)

    p.s.s. ~ Note; “ bonds of evil angels (a messenger, generally a (supernatural) messenger from God, an angel, conveying news or behests from God to men.” ~
    Bound with everlasting chains FOR judgment on the great Day. ~ He has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness UNTIL the judgment of the great day ~ He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness UNTO the judgment of the great day. ~ He reserves in everlasting bonds, in darkness, IN PREPERATION for the judgement of the great day. ~ in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept, ~

    SEE ~ * admin says:
    January 27, 2014 at 12:39 am
    http://biblehub.com/greek/1519.htm

    p.s.s.t ~ See also this ~

    John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming …
    … That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world … true Light was that which illumines every man by its … He was the true Light, which doth enlighten …

    1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you:
    God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. …

    John 8:15 You judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

    John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but but to save the world through him.

    • Lanny A. Eichert February 14, 2014 at 2:12 pm

      Stephen, I quote you: “everlasting bonds, in darkness” and remind you there’s NO release from their bonds or darkness even during and after Judgment Day. Can’t you concede the meaning of everlasting just as in Romans 1: 20 it is eternal. You folks press the meaning of words, but not this one; isn’t that right?

      Jude 6 δεσμοῖς ἀϊδίοις

      What’s all this about light, Stephen, when the text clearly says “under gloomy darkness” in everlasting chains He has kept them? There’s absolutely no indication God would ever reconcile them, but every indication God would intend to prevent their repentance. What does ἀϊδίοις mean, Stephen?

      • Lanny A. Eichert February 14, 2014 at 2:20 pm

        God never says to the wicked, “Be my Valentine” but says “cry forever in my eternal fire.”

        The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. {Psalm 11: 5, 6}

        There’s absolutely no indication that God attempts to reconcile the wicked. From the depths of God’s soul comes His hatred for the wicked.

      • Stephen Helbig February 16, 2014 at 12:16 pm

        What does ἀϊδίοις mean, Stephen?

        Lanny, I must attend to something right now, but will attempt to answer you at a later time, thank you for inquisition.

        • Stephen Helbig February 16, 2014 at 6:56 pm

          Matthew 12:35 The good man out of the good treasure brings forth good things; and the wicked man out of the wicked treasure brings forth wicked things.

          What does ἀϊδίοις mean, Stephen?

          Lanny concerning your February 14, 2014 at 2:12 pm comment, you make an outrageous claim stating NO RELEASE and I‘ll reference now ~ “Stephen, I quote you: “everlasting bonds, in darkness” and remind you there’s NO release from their bonds or darkness even during and after Judgment Day. ~ Can’t you concede the meaning of everlasting just as in Romans 1: 20 it is eternal. You folks press the meaning of words, but not this one; isn’t that right?” end quote

          In responding to the above, I scuffle like just like a farmers hoe being pushed back and forth across the surface of the ground of scripture and wonder just where to begin. So let’s start with the GOOD NEWS. ~ Yes all 66? Books :0

          Lets condense ~ Condensed we Have ~ THE OLD TESTAMENT ~ and then we have THE NEW TESTAMENT. ( old ~ NEW ~ 🙂 )
          Both of these covenants are referred to in ~ 2 Corinthians 3:9

          2 Corinthians 3:9 (KJV) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

          NOTICE ~ If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, (and the ministry of the Law was always on, 24/7, around the clock condemnation, in all of its forms, for all who tried to abide by it) how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! (24/7, around the clock righteousness, in all of its forms, for all alive in Christ.)

          ~ See 2 Corinthians 3:6-11 and please do mindfully note (vs.7) ~That one was done away with and replaced with the other ~ that one which remaineth ~ (vs 11)

          Many state that the 1st covenant is Law and the ministration of death ~ The more glorious one is the 2nd covenant which “remaineth” and is GRACE ~ So I can say with Paul ~ “GRACE AND PEACE BE MULTIPLIED UNTO YOU”

          Now the dispensation of these covenants ~ which are described as marriages with God ~ see Romans 7 ~ Describe the death of the testator ~ Jesus Christ

          Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.(Rm. 7:4)
          ~ (Fruit unto God ~ His fruit ~ The fruit of the Spirit ~ love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (See Gal. 5)

          So I say ~ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free ~ the perfect law of liberty ~ to set at liberty them that are bruised ~ deliverance to the captives ~ creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God ~

          This “LIBERTY” brings us to Freedom from imprisonment, bonds, and restraint ~ (“everlasting bonds, in darkness”) In reference to (Jude 6)

          ~And the angels (or messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

          There is an very important preposition in the Greek ~ eis ~ http://biblehub.com/greek/1519.htm
          Word Origin ~ a prim. Preposition (and note Lanny, The above link was brought to your attention back when you first posed these questions with Alice back on January 27, 2014 at 12:39 am ~ In the blog titled “Brave or Stupid”)
          Definition of Greek eis ~ to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)
          Translated in the NASB as ~about (1), against (18), among (10), become* (5), before (2), before* (1), benefit (1), bestowed (1), beyond (1), beyond* (2), bring about (1), bring* (1), continually* (1), eliminated* (2), end (2), even (1), ever* (2), forever* (1), forward* (3), leading (2), leads (1), mine* (1), never* (1), next* (1), onto (2), over (1), perpetually* (1), reference (2), regard (3), relation (1), respect (2), result (3), resulted (2), resulting (10), sake (1), so (34), throughout (3), toward (23), until (4), view (3), why* (4).

          This preposition ( εἰς) indicates a point reached ~ A place and time ~ A purpose and a final resting place or result in purpose ~ and in our King James version is translated “UNTO”

          So we have “everlasting bonds” ~ Jude 6 δεσμοῖς ἀϊδίοις ~ describing (as an “adjective”) God’s chains and I agree these are as eternal as God is, as stated in Rm. 1:20. ~ BUT ~ These eternal chains of God have been opened by God in his plan just as TRUTH reigns over lies and deceit ~ This was done by The eternal God thru in the life and death of our Lord Jesus Christ ~ Death no longer rules ~ death is swallowed up in His victory ~
          LIFE overcomes death and are made one, ~ LIFE REIGNING
          LOVE overcomes hate and are made one ~ LOVE REIGNING
          LIGHT overcomes darkness and mage one ~ HIS LIGHT REIGNING
          Joy overcomes sorrow and made one ~ JOY UNSPEAKABLE and FULL OF HIS GLORY

          One ~ swallowed up by the greater and more glorious ONE

          p.s. ~ note, I do not believe these eternal chains are LITERAL CHAINS ~ but a metaphor and a great allegory to describe the lies and the message of darkness as ~ ALWAYS BEING BOUND ~ THROUGHOUT ETERINITY ~ and May we all grow in THE GLORIOUS LIGHT HE HAS PLACED WTHIN EACH ONE OF US

          p.s.s. ~ what’s all this about light, Stephen…?
          John 1:9 ~ Jesus the true light ~ That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

          p.s.s.t ~ The Gospel of Jesus Christ ~ GOOD NEWS

          • admin February 17, 2014 at 8:46 pm

            Regarding eis, you took the words right out of my mouth 🙂

            • Lanny A. Eichert February 18, 2014 at 7:17 pm

              Stephen and Alice, you both fail to realize that though the provision was made it avails nothing unless it is received and believed. Faith comes by hearing the word of God preached. There is no hearing without receiving and believing it.

              For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {Hebrews 4: 2}

              They remain in darkness eternally. To quote you, “ALWAYS BEING BOUND ~ THROUGHOUT ETERNITY”. They haven’t a chance of being reconciled, dear boy and girl, not a shred of light. Acknowledge it instead of worming your way from it.

          • Lanny A. Eichert February 18, 2014 at 7:52 pm

            Stephen says I agree these are as eternal as God is, as stated in Rm. 1:20. ~ BUT ~ These eternal chains of God have been opened by God in his plan; so you make a difference between opened chains and unopened chains? So they are kept dragging chains that are opened, but never able to shake off their chains? No, Stephen, as long as they are in chains, they are never free; it doesn’t matter if they drag opened chains forever, they can never be freed from them, because they are eternal chains.

            Can’t you folks see how you endeavor to invert the meaning of God’s holy words to promote your filthy lies?

            • admin February 21, 2014 at 8:51 pm

              Filthy lies implies Stephen is willfully misleading you. Can you say with absolute assurance that Stephen doesn’t actually believe what he is saying (and this has nothing to do with whether what he is saying is true or false – whether he believes it is the point in contention here)? You can’t know that, because you are not God. When you judge a person’s intentions, you are trying to sit on the throne of God. Get over your high and mighty self, Lanny, and have some respect. Tell Stephen you disagree with him. Tell him what he says is not true, but don’t call him a liar.

              • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2014 at 4:56 pm

                Look, Alice, they are filthy lies because they are not Biblical truths, period. They are not coming from just Stephen, as I wrote “you folks” to include all your friends of this persuasion.

                Stop turning lies into supposed personal attacks and accept the nature of your falsehoods for what they are: Satanic filthy lies ignorantly repeated by you folks.

                • admin February 26, 2014 at 12:22 am

                  The operative word in your comment is “ignorantly.”

                  1.lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned
                  2.lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact
                  3.uninformed; unaware
                  4.due to or showing lack of knowledge or training

                  Ignorance is not deceit.

                  We either lack knowledge that you have, or you lack knowledge that we have (maybe a bit of both). But we all believe we are telling the truth regardless.

              • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2014 at 7:56 pm

                Alice lovely deflects the point from eternally bound in darkness, from which they cannot possibly repent and believe, to personal attacks. The real issue is how can they possibly be considered by God for reconciliation when He eternally bound them in darkness? There is nothing at any time available to them for any change whatsoever. Their plight is eternally unchangable in their bonds.

                What don’t you all understand about eternal?

            • Lanny A. Eichert February 27, 2014 at 12:20 am

              Alice & Stephen, Those {Jude 6} chains/bonds are eternal and as such they remain eternal after judgment as well as before judgment, and there’s not even a hint of them being loosened in this case. Please stop making fantasies and face the reality of eternal torment. This one case proves all others since you can’t minimize ἀϊδίοις

              Face it, God never intended their reconciliation.

    • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2014 at 6:20 pm

      Stephen & Alice, He reserves in everlasting bonds, in darkness, IN PREPERATION for the judgement of the great day. ~ in bonds everlasting, under darkness He hath kept

      You still cannot escape the intent of God keeping them eternally bound in darkness meaning NEVER any release and NEVER any further knowledge. Therefore they have no reconciliation ever. The PREPERATION is eternal doom.

  • Stephen Helbig February 16, 2014 at 12:07 pm

    Valentine’s Day ~ “BE” ~ GOD SAYS ~ “I AM THAT I AM”

    _________██████__________________________██████_____
    _____█████_________________██._________________████_____
    ___███___________________██████__________________███___
    __███__________For God so Lo V ed the world______________███__
    __███____________That He ga A ve _____________________███__
    ___███_______________His On L y _____________________███__
    ____███______________Begott E n ___________________███____
    ______███_______________So N ___________________███_____
    ________███____________Tha T whosoever__________███______
    __________███______Believeth I n Him ___________███_________
    _____________██______Should N ot perish ________██__________
    _______________██__ But have E verlasting life___██___________
    __________________██____________________██______________
    _____________________██__John (3:16)___██

    p.s. ~ Lanny states above that ~ ” There’s absolutely no indication that God attempts to reconcile the wicked.” “From the depths of God’s soul comes His hatred for the wicked.”
    – end quote

    HOWEVER ~ we can find that in scripture, the word of God states to all, that while we were yet sinners…

    … Romans 5:8 ~ But God commends his own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

    … Colossians 1:20 ~ … and through Him to reconcile to himself ALL Things …

    … 1 Timothy 2:5 ~ … For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile
    God and humanity–the man Christ Jesus. …

    … Colossians 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies …
    … And you — once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works,
    yet NOW DID HE RECONCILE…

    p.s.s. ~ Moreover all things [are] of God the [One] having reconciled us to himself, by Christ, and having given to us the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor.5:18)

    p.s.s.t. ~ Lanny, “the portion of their cup” ~
    Mark 14:23 ~ Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it. … And he took a cup of wine and gave thanks to God for it. …”This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” ~ Jesus

    Note ~ “poured out for MANY,” ~ HELPS Word-studies on “MANY:

    4183 polýs – many (high in number); multitudinous, plenteous, “much”; “great” in amount (extent).

    4183 /polýs (“much in number”) emphasizes the quantity involved. 4183 (polýs) “signifies ‘many, numerous’; . . . with the article it is said of a multitude as being numerous” (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 113,114) – i.e. great in amount.

    • Lanny A. Eichert February 18, 2014 at 7:27 pm

      Again Stephen, God only intends to save those He elects to faith.

      For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {Hebrews 4: 2}

      Without receiving it they burn in the Lake of Fire forever. The majority don’t receive it and they therefore burn forever for their stubbornness.

      Stop trying to confuse the issue by quoting words that don’t apply.

  • Stephen Helbig February 22, 2014 at 12:35 pm

    Aren’t you Glad ~ “He will perfect that which concerns us”

    God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

    Savoir of the world

    Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it.

    • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2014 at 5:22 pm

      Stephen, you can bet He makes very good eternal chains that no matter how long they drag them around, they’ll never wear out or fall off.

      he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. {Jude 6}

      They will wear those eternal chains in judgment and beyond because they are eternal chains. They will NEVER be free. Eternal is eternal. The wording is clear from one simple word that God never ever intended to reconcile them since He bound them with bonds that are eternal. Or is your god a liar?

      God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? {Numbers 23: 19}

      Doesn’t the real God mean eternal when He says eternal; as eternal as His power is eternal? {Romans 1: 20}

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