What People Say about Aronofsky’s Noah

What People Say about Aronofsky’s Noah

What People Say about Aronofsky’s Noah

One thing I find very interesting and surprising about the movie, Noah is the outrageous loathing people feel over the main character, Noah:

Albert Mohler “sociopathic monster… a madman… a murderous sociopath”

A.O. Scott “gone crazy… terrified, humorless… a genocidal lunatic… monster… righteousness pushed to the point of murderous, monomaniacal rage”

Christopher Orr “a knowing accomplice in an act of global genocide… whose zealous conviction is here taken to the brink of madness”

Paul Asay “a bit of a madman for a while… a fearsome figure of death, glowering with his unsheathed blade”

John Anderson “on the edge of mental collapse… passionate, obsessed, even homicidal…”

Robert Denerstein “goes off the deep end, turning into a zealot who goes too far…”

Alynda Wheat “obsessive bordering on psychotic with a willingness to inflict cruelty… monomaniacal… the picture of ruthlessness… God’s bouncer…”

Ken Ham “psychopath… bloodstained…”

Barbara Nicolosi “a completely unsympathetic character… intractable and insane in his conviction…”

If you’ve seen the movie, then you’ll understand why people say what they say about Noah, expertly portrayed by Russell Crowe.

noah-russell-crowe-

But that’s not what surprises me.

Stop and think about it.

The Creator is a distant and silent character, nevertheless a constant presence in the film. The Creator drowns all of humanity, minus the people in the ark.

Noah is a conflicted character who wants to do the will of the Creator. Noah kills in self-defense, and then later, in defense of the ark. He considers killing his granddaughters, because he believes that the Creator’s will is that humanity, including Noah’s family, should be wiped off the face of the earth. Ultimately, Noah can’t bring himself to do it.

There’s plenty of violence in this film.

Who does the most violence? The Creator or Noah?

Why are people not referring to the Creator as a sociopathic, murderous, humorless, passionate, obsessed, homicidal, psychotic, bloodstained, completely unsympathetic monster? How is it that the Creator can drown almost everyone, yet Noah is the one people focus on as the genocidal lunatic, the fearsome figure of death with a willingness to inflict cruelty, the picture of ruthlessness who is intractible and insane in his conviction? Whose righteousness is pushed to the point of murderous, monomaniacal rage?

Please don’t read into what I’ve written here. Remember, I’m referring to the Creator as a character in a Hollywood flick.

Who is God? What does God do? I believe this film has plenty to say in response to these two questions. I’ll expound more on this in another blog.

In both the movie and the biblical story, humanity has become altogether wicked and violent. The Creator, or God, reacts with an exceedingly wicked and violent response. Is it wicked to drown someone? Is it violent? How about everyone? Is it wicked and violent to drown everyone? Your comments are most welcome.

noah movie

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas April 30, 2014 at 6:09 am

    That’s interesting about the strong negative reaction to the character of Noah in the movie. I think you’re right to ask why the audience doesn’t also indict and censure God, given that God is the One who is responsible for inflicting the destruction.

    I think you’re right to point out that the destruction of the creation needs to be seen against the backdrop of the world’s refusal to fulfill the purpose for which it was created, namely, trust and obedience to the Creator. It is because the world has turned away from God and has ceased to honor God as God that God resolves to destroy what he has made. It needs to be noted, too, that God’s judgment is not the judgment inflicted by an angry, vengeful tyrant, but by a parent who grieves deeply the brokenness and alienation of the world. According to the biblical narrative, the grief of God in response to his wayward creation is central to God’s dealings with creation. God acts not as a distant deity to destroy the world, but as One who is fully engaged with and distraught over the sorry human condition. And in the end the decision to destroy is tempered. Newness is brought about. God’s resolve to destroy is his just judgment against human rebellion; hence, it is not wicked. But this resolve is overridden and mitigated by the grief in the heart of God for the creation God never stops loving.

    • admin May 4, 2014 at 8:37 pm

      You’ve beautifully encapsulated what I’ve always been taught about the flood story. For me, it’s on the table for reexamination.

      • Mary Vanderplas May 5, 2014 at 5:25 am

        I don’t think the point of the story is the flood – God reacting “with an exceedingly wicked and violent response.” I think the point of this narrative is the tension in the heart of God evoked by the world’s waywardness – and the resolution of this tension in God’s decision not to deal with the creation in terms of retribution but in terms of grace and compassion. It communicates also the truth that the destiny of creation is in the hands of the One who created all things – and hence is beyond our control.

        The text is not, in my view, historical narrative, strictly speaking. The text is a proclamation of Israel’s faith concerning how God has dealt with the creation that is turned away from God and his purposes. Interpretation of the text should focus not on questions about the story details – “is it wicked to drown someone?” – but on what is disclosed about God and the effects of this disclosure on the creation.

        • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2014 at 1:38 am

          Mary, the tension is ever your excuse for not having an answer. Creation’s destiny includes eternal torment as per Romans 9: 22.

          God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

          Jesus said there are MANY vessels of wrath fitted to destruction {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} and only few vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.

          • Mary Vanderplas May 10, 2014 at 6:26 am

            Take off your “God-the-uncaring-heavenly-tyrant-who-punishes-beyond-measure-the-majority-of-humanity” glasses and your “God-the-disinterested-judge-who-sits-back-and-watches-as-destruction-is-visited-upon-the-creation-(in-an-arbitrary-way)”; and read the text for what it actually says about who God is and what God does. What it says is that a grieved God changes, determining to relate to the creation in a new way, a way defined not by anger and destruction but by grace and compassion.

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 15, 2014 at 1:02 am

            Mary is always saying “I think” and “in my view” like she never surely knows anything so she calls it “tension.”

            The Romans 9: 22 text actually says: God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

            Mary don’t you know what “fitted to destruction” means? Or what “vessels of wrath” means? Don’t you know Who did the “fitting?” Don’t you know Who the Potter is?

            • Mary Vanderplas May 16, 2014 at 5:36 am

              Lanny “resolves” the tension in scripture by distorting the meaning of the text to fit his preconceived doctrine. Lanny also substitutes arrogant claims of doctrinal certitude for awe and trust in a transcendent reality that cannot be contained.

              The Romans 9 text actually says that the ultimate purpose of God is mercy – not that the God revealed in Jesus Christ has in fact (arbitrarily) chosen some and rejected others. Moreover, the divine freedom is not disconnected from who God is. A God who creates in order to condemn is hardly compatible with the God revealed in scripture and in Jesus Christ – the God who is love in himself.

              So, what does the Noah story say about who God is? It says, for one thing, that God changes, resolving to relate to the creation in new ways, ways defined by grace and mercy not by anger and retribution.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 18, 2014 at 7:26 pm

                Mary, how you get all that out of:

                God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction {Romans 9: 22}

                is beyond me. The text says God displays His wrath, not mercy.

                God never changes, but He sometimes appears to change His methods. Yet the results remain the same: eternal torment for the majority that reject Him and eternal bliss for those few who trust Him. They are ALL hand picked by God for their eternal destinies.

                • Mary Vanderplas May 19, 2014 at 5:23 am

                  What I “get” from the text in Romans 9 is that God is a God who shows mercy (v. 16). He is a God who “endures with much patience” for the purpose of revealing his glory for the objects of mercy, not a God who has arbitrarily chosen some and rejected others. God’s sovereignty is always a gracious sovereignty. The God who is revealed in Jesus Christ is always for us; his purpose is the reconciliation of all things. He is not a God who is gracious only some of the time and with some people, as you falsely suppose.

                  How you can assert that God never changes but only appears to change his methods is beyond me. The story of Noah plainly reveals a God who is deeply affected by the human situation and who changes, deciding not to abandon the creation but to relate to it in new ways, ways that guarantee its future.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 11:21 pm

                    Mary, God drowned the entire world’s population, except eight persons because He did NOT want a relationship with them and He made sure they drowned sustaining the flood well beyond human endurance to tread water.

                    You do not account for them in your idea of mercy, nor that they were vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. Destruction, Mary, destruction. The same said Jesus of the multitude of humanity in Matthew 7: 13 & 14. Who’s right: Mary or Jesus?

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 21, 2014 at 5:28 am

                      Is that what is pictured here – God standing apart from the creation, outside of the hurt, a disinterested judge making a detached decision to destroy utterly people whom he hates and wants nothing to do with? The picture of God presented here is that of One who agonizes over the decision to judge, who tempers the judgment by deciding to save some creatures, including every animal and bird, and who in the end resolves to stay with the creation, to relate to it in new ways, sustaining and preserving that which God made and loves. The God here pictured is no angry, revenge-seeking tyrant or disinterested judge, but a grieved parent whose will is the good of those who rebel against him – and who is committed to change. Take off your eternal torment glasses, and read the text for what it says.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 21, 2014 at 11:27 pm

                      Mary, the whole world, except the eight He saved, died and are this day in prison according to God’s doing and decree. God acted deliberately and you cannot deny that, so face what it means. What He did thereafter doesn’t change their eternal torment.

                      God is not committed to change since His plan was known to Himself before the creation. Surely you know that. God always had in mind to justify believers and damn unbelievers to eternal torment and He knew the gross majority would be unbelievers.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 23, 2014 at 5:04 am

                      Nothing is said here about the eternal destiny of those who perished in the flood. And in fact, the focus of the narrative is not on the plight of the victims, but on a tension within the heart of God, a tension that is finally resolved in God’s decision to stay with the creation. God judged the rebellious creation but did not annihilate it. God chose to temper his judgment, saving some and making possible a new beginning for the creation he loves.

                      There is nothing here of a static deity impervious to the suffering and alienation of his creation and captive of some rigid plan or of a prior resolve. On the contrary, the picture of God given here is of One who is deeply affected by the state of the rebellious world and who changes, committing to a new relationship with the creation.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2014 at 9:38 pm

                      Mary, perished means perished. When will you learn?

                      Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: {2 Peter 3: 6}

                      ALSO
                      by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. {1 Peter 3: 19 & 20}
                      Mary, they are STILL in prison, right? They always will be, just like the fallen angels in Jude 6 will never loose their chains even while they stand in judgment and afterward.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 26, 2014 at 6:01 am

                      Perished means died. The point of the 2 Peter text is that the final judgment will happen in God’s time and God’s way and that what seems like a long delay in the Lord’s return should be seen as an expression of God’s patience and grace. “The Lord…is patient with you, not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” There is good reason to believe that what the Lord wants, he gets.

                      The “spirits in prison” likely refers to rebellious transcendent beings, not to human beings who died in the flood.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2014 at 3:55 pm

                      Mary, not likely rebellious transcendent beings, rather than human beings who died in the flood. Those are already in everlasting chains under darkness {Jude 6} not in prison {1 Peter 3: 19 & 20}

                      2 Peter 3 verse six stands in contrast to verse seven as two civilizations upon this same earth, the first destroyed by water and the second to be destroyed by fire. That’s the reason we have rainbows in the sky as God’s promise that He will not destroy the kosmos by water again; instead He will use fire. FYI since there IS a final destruction of civilization, those destroyed are eternally tormented not saved; and they are the majority of human history. That is totally antithetical to universal salvation, Mary and Alice.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2014 at 4:01 pm

                      Mary, perished in 2 Peter 3: 6 is the same Greek word as in John 3: 16 meaning far more than physical death just like in John 17: 12 of Judas Iscariot. Eternally perished.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 28, 2014 at 5:08 am

                      Why are you running to John’s Gospel to determine what “perished” means in 2 Peter? In context, the word in 2 Peter 3 means died. If the word means “far more than physical death,” it is only because you import “far more than physical death” into it and then – presto! – extract “far more than physical death” from it.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 28, 2014 at 1:43 pm

                      Mary, true, context determines meaning but so do texts that expound each other enrichen the meaning. The 1 Peter 3: 19 & 20 expound on the Genesis account placing those spirits in prison awaiting judgment and sentencing to everlasting torment.

                      Why would you make these fallen angels instead of spirits of men; or is it you don’t believe those men had everlasting spirits? You could save yourself a lot of grief if you’d reckon salvation was only wrought for mankind meaning that only mankind during Noah’s day received the preaching mentioned in this text. Jesus’ blood saves only human creatures that have blood flowing in their veins.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 30, 2014 at 5:40 am

                      The 1 Peter text does not expound on the Genesis account. It makes passing reference to the flood in talking about baptism (not divine judgment). The spirits in prison are not specifically identified as those who were judged in the flood. Nor is the content of the proclamation spelled out. Once again, you read into the text what you need it to say in order to support your majority-of-humanity-damned doctrine.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 1:58 am

                      Come on, Mary, you know you have used the 1 Peter 3: 19 & 20 text to try to justify post death salvation by supposing the gospel was preached in their prison to other than the eight that escaped death in the ark so that they might have the opportunity to believe and escape their prison. The eight are humans, therefore all in prison are also human spirits. Human are baptized, not transcendent spirits.

                      The correct understanding of the passage is the Christ’s Spirit, the Holy Spirit, was in Noah when he preached while he built the ark and since they didn’t listen and believe their spirits are now in prison. Jesus did not go to their prison between His death and resurrection, but rather in Noah’s day He was preaching to them via His Spirit in Noah.

                      The text IS expounding their current fate and condition and the reason why. It expounds the results of the Flood with the contrast of the eight saved by the figure of the ark being the reality of Christ, the Savour. As the eight were inside the ark, so must a person be immersed {baptized} in Christ to be saved from judgment. In the ark judgment could not touch them.

                      See, you all have another misunderstanding thinking everybody must be judged, yet Noah’s ark pictures God’s saints above judgment because they are “in Christ” in the ark. They are dry as can be inside the Ark and the “waters of judgment” don’t get them even the slightest bit damp. Christ was judged for my sins and He bore my sentence of death, therefore I will never be judged and never can be condemned.

                      And Mary thinks the passage doesn’t expound the Flood. How wrong she is !!!

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 1, 2014 at 6:36 am

                      I haven’t “used” the 1 Peter text for anything. I’ve only responded to your comments in which you (mis)use it in an effort to support your doctrine. The fact is that this text is difficult; its meaning is not clear. That scholars and lay people alike have debated its meaning extensively over the past two millennia should be enough to discourage anyone from stating “The correct understanding of the passage is…” One thing is clear, though: the text celebrates and envisions the final victory of Christ – which may include even the hostile powers liberated and transformed.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 1, 2014 at 7:16 pm

                      Mary, “may include” yet you advance nothing in the text. You speak out of your ignorance.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 6, 2014 at 5:41 am

                      1 Peter 3:22 pictures the powers in submission to Christ.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 7, 2014 at 4:08 am

                      Mary, in submission means His enemies in the everlasting Lake of Fire in everlasting torment.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 8, 2014 at 7:06 am

                      Nothing is said about everlasting torment/Lake of Fire in this text. Once again, you read your doctrine into the biblical text. The picture presented here may well point to the final redemption and transformation of the powers.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 1:36 am

                      Mary, why is He henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool? {Hebrews 10:13}

                      In case you haven’t noticed the picture is what is happening RIGHT NOW in 1 Peter 3: 22, not a future expectation. It is an Aorist Participle emphasizing completed action as a whole as viewed in a single point of time.

                      You tried to make it future and final so I gave you the final estate of the wicked in subjection, because it is NOT liberated and transformed, but rather fire and brimstone everlasting torment. Your “liberated and transformed” is according to you only a maybe, but in reality it is just your false dream.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 10, 2014 at 5:42 am

                      The final verses of 1 Peter 3 picture Christ the Lord – whose reign is both now – already – and not yet, awaiting future fulfillment. What is present reality only partially now – all creation subject to him – will one day be manifested fully. This may well include the redemption of the powers.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2014 at 11:52 pm

                      Mary, that may well NOT include the redemption of the powers, since God gave no such permission, but only everlasting condemnation unto them.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 13, 2014 at 5:12 am

                      Not a word is said here about everlasting condemnation, only about being subject to Christ – which does not preclude and may well include the redemption of the hostile powers.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 11:43 pm

                    Mary, in new ways, ways that guarantee its future that guarantees their future is to burn forever in the Lake of Fire for sure: I’ll agree with that. 1 Peter 3: 19 & 20
                    by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. Mary, they are STILL in prison, right? They always will be, just like the fallen angels in Jude 6 will never loose their chains even while they stand in judgment and afterward.

                • Stephen Helbig May 19, 2014 at 9:52 am

                  endured with much
                  Longsuffering … … … … … … …

  • Stephen Helbig April 30, 2014 at 6:11 am

    The following is an excerpt of “What is the Bible” by ROB BELL ~ Author and Teacher.

    “Let’s talk about floods. Because the ancients did. The Sumerians told flood stories, the Mesopotamians told flood stories, the Babylonians told flood stories-stories about water and its destructive power to wipe out towns, cities, civilizations, and people were not unusual in the ancient world.
    There were even stories about people building boats to survive these floods.
    In these flood stories, all that water coming to destroy humanity was understood to be divine judgment for all of the ways people had made a mess of things. The gods are angry, it was believed, and a flood was their way of clearing the deck to start over.
    For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth…[Genesis 7]
    So when we come to a story about a flood in the book of Genesis, it’s not that unusual. This flood story is like the other flood stories because this god is like the other gods-fed up with the depravity of humanity, unleashing divine wrath in the form of a flood.
    But then this story does something strange. It ends with the divine insistence that’s never going to happen again.
    And then this God brings a rainbow and a promise and a covenant.
    A what?
    A covenant. A covenant is an agreement, an oath, a relational bond between two beings who belong to each other.
    This was not how the other flood stories ended. In those stories, the gods are angry and everybody dies and the gods are satisfied. End of story.
    But this god is different. This god commits to living with people in a new way, a way in which life is preserved and respected.
    So why was this particular story told?
    Why did this story matter?
    Why did it endure?
    Several reasons.
    First, imagine if you had no pictures of earth from outer space, no weather reports, no Google images, no airplanes-imagine if you’d never been more than a few miles from where you were born. And then imagine water-massive, undulating, swirling, terrifying water-coming at you out of nowhere and wiping your entire life away.
    Imagine what that would do to your psyche.
    You would do what we do whenever we suffer-you’d look for causes. And in the ancient world, it was generally agreed upon that the forces that caused these kind of things were the gods who had had it up to here with humans and all their backstabbing, depraved ways and had decided to unleash their wrath.
    That’s how people saw the world.
    But then there’s a twist: this story starts in a familiar way, a way that people would have heard before, but then it heads in a different direction. A very different direction, a direction involving rainbows and oaths and covenants.
    This was not how people talked about the gods.
    The gods are pissed off-that’s how people understood the gods.
    But this story, this story is about a God who wants to relate-
    A God who wants to save-
    A God who wants to live in covenant…
    This story is about a new view of God.
    Not a God who wants to wipe people out,
    but a God who wants to live in relationship.
    So yes, it’s a primitive story.
    Of course it is.
    It’s a really, really old story.
    It reflects how people saw the word and explained what was happening around them.
    But to dismiss this story as ancient and primitive is to miss that at the time this story was first told it was a mind blowing new conception of a better, kinder, more peaceful God who’s greatest intention for humanity is not violence but love.
    It’s primitive, but it’s also really, really progressive.
    One more thought, this one about unicorns.
    (How great was that sentence?)
    You’ll often hear people talk about stories from the Bible such as this one with a certain rolling of the eyes, as in can you believe people still believe this stuff?
    Much of this cynicism is due to the way stories like these have been told-often by well meaning religious people trying to prove that there actually were two animals at a time that went in to an ark and
    Yes, the boat really was big enough
    and
    Of course God had a plan for where to put the elephant poo.
    That sort of thing. What this stilted literalism does, in its efforts to take the story seriously, is often miss the point of the story. This story was a major leap forward in human consciousness, a breakthrough in how people conceived of the divine, another step toward a less violent, more relational understanding of the divine.
    It starts like the other flood stories started,
    but then it goes somewhere different.
    Somewhere new.
    Somewhere better…”

    ___________________________________________________________

    p.s. ~ “… referring to the Creator as a character in a Hollywood flick.
    Who is God? What does God do?” ~ I can relate 🙂

    p.s.s. ~ The Bible Promise Book (KJV) ~ I can relate 🙂

    p.s.s.t. ~ “God will meet you where you are” ~ I can relate 🙂
    “Know ye not you are the temple of God” ~ (1Cor. 3:16) ~ 🙂

    • admin May 4, 2014 at 8:34 pm

      Thanks for sharing this.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 9:36 pm

      Stephen/Alice, Rob Bell is foolish. The entire earth’s population, except eight souls, drowned. God did NOT want to live in relationship with them. That’s why they drowned and God made sure they drowned. They were vessels of God’s wrath fitted for the destruction of eternal torment. Romans 9: 22

      God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction

  • Dennis Goodman April 30, 2014 at 7:29 pm

    Perhaps the focus on the Noah character’s flaws is a function of his being human. As fellow humans maybe it’s easier to understand the emotional responses of other humans, even if that understanding is incomplete or wrong headed. We feel qualified to drop ourselves into that character’s place and reject, if not the feelings themselves, then at least the actions that resulted from those feelings.

    A god like creator character, on the other hand, is ultimately unjudgeable. Why would a Creator become a Destroyer? I don’t know. Would I have acted differently? It’s a question that hardly even makes sense to me.

    • admin May 4, 2014 at 8:24 pm

      Thanks for your input. If I understand you correctly, you are saying we would have to be “creators” ourselves in order to drop ourselves into Aronofsky’s Creator’s place.

      • Dennis Goodman May 6, 2014 at 10:01 pm

        I think that’s right. Or else the character would need to be developed fully enough for us to feel competent evaluating and judging his motivations and actions.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 5, 2014 at 1:08 am

      Dennis, you don’t know Why a Creator would become a Destroyer? Haven’t you read Romans 9: 22?
      God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction
      Any manufacturer knows there are discardables in manufacturing. That’s the nice way to put it, but the Biblical text tells us straight forward that God made many men and angels for the purpose of displaying His wrath in their eternal torment. It seems you refuse to accept reality, you poor man. Haven’t you heard some people say, you can’t have a heaven without a hell; or even more simply, you can’t have good without evil? So you can’t have eternal bliss without eternal torment.

      • Dennis Goodman May 7, 2014 at 8:08 pm

        Lanny, I believe the original question pertained to people’s reaction to a movie. To the degree that Paul’s letter to the church in Rome helps to answer that question at all, I would say that it largely supports what I answered initially. The creator–even a fictional creator used as a plot device in a big budget special effects movie–can do whatever he or she wants. We are in no position to judge. Do you find something different in Romans chapter 9?

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2014 at 1:19 am

        Dennis, When you used upper case C & D you moved into reality and now you want to confuse YOUR question and answer. Romans 9: 22 is the real answer as I explained and you refuse to believe that answer proving your eternal destiny is the same as Alice and her typical friends, as well as the typical member of the movie’s audience. FYI Romans 9: 22 is God’s every word to the church in Rome, not merely Paul’s letter. When you suggest otherwise, you clearly present yourself as an unregenerate hell-bound sinner. Enjoy the fire: it is eternal torment.

        • Dennis Goodman May 9, 2014 at 9:29 pm

          Thanks! I will. You have a good time too.

          • Stephen Helbig May 10, 2014 at 1:53 pm

            Lanny, I wish to interject something by us taking a closer look at Romans 9:22 (in its context and framework of the whole of Chapter 9).

            Dennis had a great question for you when he stated ~ “Do you find something different in Romans Chapter Nine ?” ~ (And by the way Dennis I love your statement ~ “The character would need to be developed fully enough for us to feel competent evaluating and judging his motivations and actions.”) ~ So lets develope a little bit, my true hearts desire, to grow in His grace! 🙂

            The following is taken from The Mirror Bible ~ Toit, Francois Du (2014-01-08). Mirror Bible: A selection of key New Testament texts paraphrased from the Greek ~ So lets look @ Romans Chapter 9.

            Romans 9:1 “What I am about to say is my honest persuasion, I am convinced beyond doubt of our inseparable union in Christ, my own conscience bears witness to this in the Holy Spirit.”

            9:2 “In the light of mankind’s inclusion and redeemed innocence, I feel such sorrow and painful longing for my fellow Jews.”
            (They are all equally included but they just do not see it!)

            9:3 “If it could in any way profit them I would prefer myself to rather be excluded from the blessing of Christ. If my exclusion could possibly help them understand their inclusion, I would gladly offer my body as a sacrifice.”

            9:4 “Sonship is the natural heritage of Israel; they historically witnessed the glory and covenants and the dramatic endorsement of the law; the prophetic rituals of worship and the Messianic promises belong to them.”

            9:5 “They are the physical family of the Messiah. Yet he supersedes all our definitions; he is God, the (1)source of blessing and the ultimate announcement of everything good, for all ages. Amen!”
            (The word, (1)eulogetos, means blessed, from eulogeo, good word, good news, or “well done” announcement; normally translated, blessing. The Word of God reaches far beyond the boundaries of Israel, it includes every nation.)

            9:6 “It is not as though their unbelief neutralized the Word of God in its effect; Israel is no longer restricted to a physical family and geographic location.”

            9:7 “It is not the natural seed of Abraham that gives them their (1)identity, but Isaac, the faith-child. God said, “Your children’s (1)identity is revealed in Isaac.”
            ([Gen 21:12]; (1)kaleo, to surname, or to identify by name. Man’s original identity was not preserved in the flesh, but in the Promise.)

            9:8 By this God clearly indicates that man’s true spirit identity is revealed in faith and not in flesh. The Promise is the fuel of faith.
            (The promise ignites faith. Faith gives substance to what hope sees.)

            9:9 “Remember God’s pledge, “In nine months time, Sarah shall have a son.”
            (Genesis 18:10, “according to the time of life, thus nine months; Galatians 4:4, Jesus is the fullness of time; the promise is a Person!)

            9:10 “Rebecca and Isaac also conceived, consistent with the promise, to further prove the point of faith versus performance.”

            9:11 “God spoke to Rebecca while the twins were still in the womb. Nothing distinguished them in terms of good looks or performance. It was recorded to emphasize the principle of (1)faith-identity as the ultimate value above any preference according to the flesh.”
            (except the fact that the one would be born minutes before the other, which would give him preference according to human tradition). (The word often translated as “election” is the word (1)ekloge, from ek, origin, source and lego from logos, the word, see John 1:1,14. Faith nullifies any ground the flesh has to boast in. Rom 3:27)

            9:12 “She was told, “the elder shall serve the younger.”

            9:13 “We would say that Esau had the raw deal; he was disliked while Jacob was favored.”
            (And the Lord said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples, born of you, shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other; the elder shall serve the younger.” [Gen 25:23]. The two come out of the same mold; yet they represent two types of people: one who understands his true identity by faith and one who seeks to identify himself after the flesh. Again, the law of performance versus the law of faith is emphasized in order to prepare the ground for the promise-principle. Mankind’s salvation would be by promise and not by performance; i.e. it would not be a reward for good behavior. No man will be justified by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; ponero, “evil,” full of hardships, annoyances and labor!)

            9:14 “To say that God is unfair, is to miss the point.”

            9:15 “Moses saw the glory of God’s goodness; he saw God’s mercy and the kindness of his compassion.”
            (Even when Israel deserved his absence he promised them his presence. Moses saw the glory and goodness of God, while he hid in the cleft of the rock. [Exodus 33:18, 19]. Throughout scripture the Rock represents the blueprint of man’s original identity [Isa 51:1, Deut 32:18, Mt 16:15-18].)

            9:16 “God’s mercy is not a reward for good behavior; it is not a wreath given to the fastest athlete.”

            9:17 “God employed Pharaoh as a prophetic figure to demonstrate the drama of mankind’s salvation from their slavery to an inferior identity. Scripture records God’s conversation with Pharaoh,” (Ex9:16) “But to show you my power working in you, I raised you up so that my Name”
            (revealing man’s authentic and original identity) might be declared throughout all the earth.” (Man’s identity is not in Pharaoh’s claim or some political leader’s influence, but in their Maker.)

            9:18 “The same act of mercy that he willingly bestows on everyone, may bless the one and harden the heart of the other.”

            9:19 “This just doesn’t sound reasonable at all! What gives God the right then to still blame anyone? Who can resist his will?”

            9:20 “How can any man dispute with God? The mold dictates the shape.”
            (There is only one true mold of man’s design: the image and likeness of God.)

            9:21 “The Potter sets the pace; same Potter, same clay; onevessel understands its value and another not; one realizes that it is priceless, the other seems worthless to itself.”

            9:22 “Their sense of worthlessness has labeled them for destruction, yet God’s power and passion prevail in patient endurance.”
            (God is not schizophrenic, having to balance out a seemingly unstable character by creating a nice guy and a bad guy: one for blessing and one for wrath! He cannot be both the Author of light and darkness; there is in him no shadow of compromise or change; no inconsistency or distortion whatsoever! [Jas 1:17, 18]. Man deceives himself when his knowledge of his true identity becomes blurred by the flesh. “He goes away and immediately forgets what manner of man he is.” Paul’s noble birth carried no further significance when he discovered his spirit identity revealed in Christ. The recorded history of Israel prepares the prophetic stage of God’s dealing with the entire human race. Faith and not flesh would be the medium of God’s dealing with man. Flesh reduces man to the senses and the soul realm, while faith’s substance reveals man’s true spirit identity. Truth ignites faith. God’s patience is shown in advising Pharaoh: “So get your livestock under roof, everything exposed in the open fields, people and animals, will die when the hail comes down.” All of Pharaoh’s servants who had respect for God’s word got their workers and animals under cover as fast as they could, but those who didn’t take God’s word seriously left their workers andanimals out in the field [Ex 9:19-21]. “For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not benefit them, because it did not meet with faith in the hearers.” [Heb 4:2 RSV])

            9:23 “He has set the stage to exhibit the wealth of his mercy upon the vessels of value. He desires to confirm in them his original intent.”
            (His glory, doxa, opinion, intent.)

            9:24 “Being Jewish or Gentile no longer defines us; God’s faith defines us.”
            (He “called” us; kaleo, to identify by name, to surname.)

            9:25 “Hosea voiced the heart of God when he said, “I will call a people without identity, my people, and her who was unloved, my Darling.”
            (Even Esau whom you said that I hated. [See v 13]. It was common among the Hebrews to use the terms “love” and “hatred” in this comparative sense, where the former implied strong positive attachment, and the latter, not positive hatred, but merely a less love, or the withholding of the expressions of affection [compare Gen 29:30-31; Lk 14:26].)

            9:26 “He prophesies that the very same people who were told that they are not God’s people, will be told that they are indeed the children of the living God.”

            9:27 “Isaiah weeps for Israel: “You might feel lost in the crowd, because your numbers equal the grains of the sand of the sea, but God does not abandon the individual.” Numbers do not distract God’s attention from the value of the one.”
            (“Isaiah maintained this same emphasis: If each grain of sand on the seashore were numbered and the sum labelled ‘chosen of God,’ They’d be numbers still, not names; salvation comes by individual realization. God doesn’t just count us; he calls us by name. Arithmetic is not his focus.” — The Message)

            9:28 “For his word will perfect his righteousness without delay; his word is poetry upon the earth.” (Jn 1:1, 14, Rom 1:16, 17.)

            9:29 “The Lord of the (1)multitudes preserved for us a Seed, to rescue us from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.”
            (From Hebrew, (1)tzaba, (tsabaoth), a mass of people. [See note on Rom 3:10] In Genesis 18, Abraham intercedes for Sodom and Gomorrah, “If there perhaps are 50 righteous people, will you save the city on their behalf?” He continues to negotiate with God, until he’s down to “perhaps ten?” ” … there was none righteous, no not one … .” The remnant represents the one Seed that would rescue the mass of humanity! In Romans 5:17, “one man’s obedience and act of righteousness, surpasses the effect of a multitude of sins!” If (spiritual) death saw the gap in one sin, and grabbed the opportunity to dominate mankind in Adam, how much more may we now seize the advantage to reign in righteousness in this life through that one act of Christ, who declared us innocent by his grace. Grace is superior in authority to the transgression! The single grain of wheat did not abide alone! [See John 12:24] Romans 5:18-19. states, “The conclusion is clear: it took just one offense to condemn mankind; one act of righteousness declares the same mankind innocent! The disobedience of the one man exhibits humanity as sinners; the obedience of another man exhibits humanity as righteous!”)

            • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 5:22 pm

              Stephen That is a great post covering Romans 9

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 10, 2014 at 3:38 pm

            Kid, you won’t be thanking me: you’ll be cursing me.

            I’ll be laughing at you proud that my Father has avenged me upon your rebellous head.

    • Mary Vanderplas May 7, 2014 at 6:20 am

      I agree that it’s difficult to conceive of the Creator becoming the Destroyer. However, I think that it needs to be emphasized that the picture presented in the biblical narrative is not of a distant deity making a detached decision to abandon what he has made. The picture is rather of the Creator grieving deeply the sorry state of the world and agonizing over the decision to judge. And this grief, this pain in the heart of the Creator, leads to his decision to save some – and to his decision to stay with the creation.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2014 at 1:45 am

        Mary, thank you for saying SOME {in the heart of the Creator, leads to his decision to save some – and to his decision to stay with the creation} rather than all. Now please say FEW and reserve the many for eternal torment.

        • Mary Vanderplas May 10, 2014 at 6:30 am

          God resolves to stay with the creation, to relate to the whole creation on the basis of grace, not retribution. And exactly how does this fit with reserving the many for eternal torment??

        • Lanny A. Eichert May 15, 2014 at 1:11 am

          Mary, you’re totally wrong to say “not retribution.” He is always the Judge of all creation and retribution is a neccessary part of His Judgeship. So it is grace AND retribution. There you go again denying your Reformation background. Keep the theology.

          • Mary Vanderplas May 16, 2014 at 5:37 am

            If the wrath of God against sin has been decisively manifested in the cross, then divine justice need not – and indeed, ought not – to be construed in terms of retribution but in terms of restoration – an expression of God’s saving purpose.

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 18, 2014 at 11:43 pm

            Mary, must I remind you that you had just written: And this grief, this pain in the heart of the Creator, leads to his decision to save some – and to his decision to stay with the creation.

            You wrote He saves SOME, so where does that leave THE REST? Under retribution, dear girl, by your very own words, they burn in eternal torment.

            The cross work of Christ must be RECEIVED personally and freely by the individual to be effective in this life and the next. The SOME He decided to save do NOT refuse the calling, so therefore they DO get saved. All others perish in the Lake of Fire eternally in accordance with the retribution of God. They don’t end up in limbo somewhere. Come on, you know better than that, Mary.

            Divine justice has two sides, a positive side and a negative side based on human choice. Those who choose right are blessed and those who choose wrong are damned.

            But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth {Romans 2: 2}

            • Mary Vanderplas May 21, 2014 at 5:30 am

              “Those who choose right are blessed and those who choose wrong are damned.” So, then, you believe that salvation is ultimately self-salvation – depending on the human decision, not on God’s gracious decision and act. What does Ephesians 2:8 say: “For by self you have been saved, and this is your own doing; it is not the gift of God…..”??

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 22, 2014 at 12:10 am

              Mary, doesn’t anything I write resound with Reformed Theology? I know it does by your insistence upon “self-salvation” and I know you know Romans 8: 28 – 30 that all God’s elect do get saved.

              For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. {2 Corinthians 4: 6}

              Without that shining in our hearts nobody gets saved. I tried to get saved listening to Billy Graham on TV when my parents weren’t home and responding to the invitation, but God would not have me until years later when I was in the military. That’s when He shined the light in my heart and I was able to believe and receive Jesus Christ as my Lord {my Commanding Officer} and Savour. All because of John 3: 16 & Revelation 3: 20 and a picture hanging in church showing Jesus standing at the door of a cottage. The fellow showing all this to me asked me, Where is Jesus. I said, He’s in my heart. He asked again, How do you know? I answered, We read right there in Revelation 3: 20 He was standing at my heart knocking, waiting for my invitation, and I asked Him to come in; He is God Who cannot lie; He came in. I had immediate assurance of Lordship Salvation in an instant and I felt relieved of my sins: I was free ! I had learned to take God’s Holy Book at face value and have been trusting it ever since. Jesus said, ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. {John 8: 32}

              Funny, just minutes before, that fellow asked me what I believed and I told him God was energy and He let some of His energy become matter and that’s how we got the creation. What an instant change the moment God’s light shined in my heart and I knew surely God is a real Person and His name is Jesus Who loved insignificant me 2,000 years ago and died on the cross because of my sins. Fifty years later He is still my Commanding Officer and Savour. He keeps those He saves.

              No Mary, it is not self-salvation: it is God’s grace that illuminates some chosen persons by which they might believe and be justified by Him.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 22, 2014 at 12:19 am

                Mary, and all others, the “our” of hearts in 2 Corinthians 4: 6 is not everybody who ever lived or will live, but only refers to those who have believed and received the Savour. Few they are according to Jesus’ words in Matthew 7: 13 & 14.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2014 at 10:33 pm

                  Mary, you begin saying you can’t argue, BUT you do argue against “God would not have” me earlier. 2 Corinthians 6: 2
                  For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. God has appointed a specific day to save the individual; a unique day for each individual He has elected to save. Therefore I know the unique day and hour I was born again, just like my mother knows the unique day and hour she gave birth to her baby son as appointed by God. Neither my physical birth nor my spiritual birth could be rushed or delayed since both are in the hands of God. My spiritual birth was dependant upon my understanding of doctrine so that I might decide to believe the truth instead of continuing in Satan’s lies. That’s repentance. God doesn’t do the repenting, I do. God can’t believe for me, I must believe to be saved. It is all of God because of 2 Corinthians 4: 6’s God shining His gospel into my heart. When God did that I was made able to believe and receive Christ into my heart. That light was overwhelming grace which was irrational to reject. I was driven by a sound mind, also given to me by the grace of God, to believe and that’s 2 Timothy 1: 7
                  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

                  All the related Scriptures require the sinner to believe in this mortality to be saved, in order to be saved. None of the Scriptures offer salvation by grace through faith to the unbeliever after physical death, but many Scriptures tell us the majority of mankind physically die in unbelief. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to conclude the majority of humanity with burn forever in eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. Are you in the majority is the question everyone should answer.

                  Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved {Acts 16: 31} Then you’ll be in the minority and a pilgrim on this earth, because your citizenship will instantly be in heaven, and you will know the whole world lies in darkness and is going to hell, so you will live a life separated from the world, just like Moses in Hebrews 11: 24 – 27 and 1 John 2: 15 & 16 will be your spontaneous life. If you love the world, you are NOT a believer.

                  • Mary Vanderplas May 26, 2014 at 6:04 am

                    To say that something doesn’t make sense to me – that I don’t understand it – isn’t to argue with it. It doesn’t make sense to me that God would turn away a seeker until a later time.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2014 at 4:23 pm

                      Mary, it also doesn’t make sense to you that God wants all to be saved and yet fewer that 10% of the world’s population has ever confessed Christ as Lord and Savour. Yet you argue insanely for the possibility of universal salvation.Over 90% of the world’s population are right now burning in hell-fire condemnation even before the final judgment which is yet future. Is your universal salvation going to erase their past? How can the “no condemnation” of Romans 8: 1 fit into their after physical death salvation which is still yet to come for them since even Alice thinks it will be innumerable ages after they are thrown into the Lake of Fire.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 28, 2014 at 5:23 am

                      So, who is it who chooses who will finally be in with God? Is it you – based on your observations of who believes and who does not believe – or is it God? Your arrogant presumption in placing your own observations on a par with God’s decision is beyond belief.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 28, 2014 at 2:10 pm

                      Mary, back to Reformed theology, dear girl, God’s Elect are the only ones who will finally be in with God? I was not yet numbered among when watching Billy Graham, but I was added when God shined His light of the gospel in my heart and I believed it leaving my old beliefs as I have recounted for you my repentance.

                      How ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God {1 Thessalonians 1: 8}

                      Christian Universalism is an idol displayed on this site. Turn from it to God or you’ll never serve God.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 30, 2014 at 5:31 am

                      God – not Lanny Eichert – decides who is included among God’s elect. There is good reason to believe – based on God’s coming to us in Christ, his assuming our humanity and binding himself to us in love – that every human being is among God’s elect, destined for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 1:00 am

                      Mary, God’s Elect are separate from the rest of the world’s humanity, therefore every human being is NOT among God’s elect. Election means nothing is everybody is elect. Election means chosen. To chose is to select FROM a group. That means there are those NOT chosen. Another word, remnant, holds the same meaning but also enhances the idea of FEW. That fits nicely Matthew 7: 13 & 14 that God saves the minority and destroys the majority of humanity.

                      Regarding knowledge of election, after a person is born again he learns Scripturally he was elected by God before the foundation of the world unto salvation as the gift of God, that’s grace, to him. Before his conversion he was spiritually blind to such knowledge. Such was my case and I know undoubtably I am one of God’s Elect. God decided my election, I certainly did not, but I did learn of my election, dear Mary, and who are the ones whom God has elected, because they are detailed in the Scriptures as born of God. Those born of God have a confession and you know >90% of the world’s population have no Christian confession, so they are not among God’s elect since they physically die without Christian salvation without hope.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 1, 2014 at 6:41 am

                      God’s elect doesn’t need to mean that some will be finally excluded. There is no logical reason why it cannot be true that God chooses and destines everyone for salvation. And there is every reason to believe, based on God’s radical act of joining himself to our humanity, that all are chosen in Christ.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 1, 2014 at 10:34 pm

                      Mary, when you go to the store to make a purchase, you choose the item you want to purchase and leave all the remaining store items on the shelf. You don’t buy the entire store inventory: you leave the inventory in place. You choose, elected, your item and left the remainder unchosen, non-elected. You only elected to purchase a few chosen items.

                      For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. {Deuteronomy 7: 6}

                      Do you see “above all people that are upon the face of the earth”? Do you see “holy people” and know it means distinct, unique? That means everybody else are not Elect.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 6, 2014 at 7:04 am

                      This is about deciding the eternal destiny of human beings made in God’s image – not deciding what’s for dinner. God’s sovereignty is a gracious sovereignty – not a sovereignty that arbitrarily chooses some and rejects others.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 7, 2014 at 3:50 am

                      Mary, God tells us in this text He made an arbitrarily gracious choice of Israel and left everybody else unelected. God deliberately chose a minority and left the majority to damnation.

                      For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. {Deuteronomy 7: 6}

                      Do you see “above all people that are upon the face of the earth”? Do you see “holy people” and know it means distinct, unique? That means everybody else are not Elect. The text continues:

                      The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers

                      That’s arbitrary gracious choice on God’s part and He is under no obligation to treat the majority of humanity the same way. They are sinners and worthy of damnation, so God allows His justice to prevail upon them righteously consuming them in everlasting torment.

                      You can’t make God be equal to all people. You’re just a woman, yet you attempt to tell God how He must treat people. You argue against God Who didn’t make you one of His Elect surely is fact contrary to Romans 9:20. You are not wise to disallow God’s sovereignity in Election by enforcing equality. You need to face the reality that Election results in the majority’s exclusion.

                      When we hold an election, we exclude all the nominees, but one for the office. God chose a number finite to Himself to save and all the rest He excluded from His salvation. That’s why within Calvinism there exists the doctrine of Limited Atonement or rather as it is called today Particular Atonement. The >90% of humanity throughout history who have died without confessing Christ evidence Jesus didn’t die particularly for them because God didn’t save them.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 8, 2014 at 7:07 am

                      God’s election of Israel was for the purpose that all the nations of the world be blessed through these chosen ones. From the beginning, God’s intent was to bring all peoples into one redeemed people, not to choose some and reject others. God’s saving mercy is not the exclusive possession of one people, but a gift that is given to all (Romans 11:32).

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 2:09 am

                      Mary, Election means the exclusion of what is not elected. The non-elect are excluded from salvation. That is plain and simple.

                      Do you want to deny the doctrine of Election, or will you believe it?

                      But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth {2 Thessalonians 2: 13} This is exclusive to that church in Thessalonica identifying them as Elect chosen by God. All the rest outside the church there were not chosen Elect and therefore perished in everlasting torment.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 10, 2014 at 5:40 am

                      God’s sovereignty is a gracious sovereignty; it is not a sovereignty that is gracious to some and not gracious to others. And those who know themselves to be chosen know – or should know – that they are chosen not to be God’s privileged elite but his servants, called to be instruments of his grace so that others who do not yet recognize their status as God’s chosen may receive and enjoy the benefits of his grace.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2014 at 11:39 pm

                      Mary, Election STILL means the exclusion of what is not elected. That does mean God’s Elect are an elete group made elete only by election.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 13, 2014 at 5:13 am

                      God acts graciously toward all. No one is excluded from his electing, saving love.

              • Mary Vanderplas May 23, 2014 at 5:05 am

                What you said in your last post about those who choose right being blessed and those who choose wrong being damned is semi-Pelagianism, not Reformed theology. Reformed theology says that salvation depends entirely on God’s gracious decision and act, not on anything we do. If human choosing is the decisive factor in whether one is saved or damned, as your words imply, then salvation is really self-salvation; it is not a gift of God’s grace, as the Bible attests.

                What you write about God choosing some and rejecting the rest echoes the doctrine of double predestination. While Calvin espoused this viewpoint, certainly not all who call themselves Reformed do so, myself included. That there are major problems with the doctrine is clear – perhaps most especially that it is based on a view of God as being inconsistently (and arbitrarily) loving and just with some and only just with others – a view not supported by scripture. My own view is that all human beings, by virtue of God’s coming to us in Christ, are among those whom God has chosen and destined for good as his adopted children.

                I can’t argue with your experience of coming to faith and discovering the freedom that trusting God’s saving love brings. However, it makes no sense to me that “God would not have” you when you were seeking him at an earlier time in your life. I do rejoice with you in your having received the gift of faith through the illumination of the Spirit and in your ongoing experience of trusting and following Christ.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2014 at 10:35 pm

                  Ops, Mary, my answer to you is above May 23, 2014 at 10:33 pm

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2014 at 10:54 pm

                  Mary, Scripture teaches election of the minority and whether or not we can put it all together doesn’t matter, only that we believe what God has said. This site is a perfect example of what happens when people try to do what they cannot: false doctrine by wrestling Scripture from its meaning.

                  You have a problem justifying a loving God eternally tormenting rebels who refuse the good news. They made their choice naturally.

                  • Mary Vanderplas May 26, 2014 at 6:05 am

                    Scripture teaches that God acted in Christ to reconcile all things to himself. Scripture teaches that the sovereign God is always for us, that he is a gracious God, not a God who arbitrarily saves some and damns others.

                    A God who is love in himself cannot be reconciled with a God who created some people in order to condemn them – or with a God who punishes beyond measure those who rebel against him.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2014 at 4:50 pm

                      Oh now Mary judges God punishes beyond measure?

                      Who are you to judge God?

                      By your pride you manufacture your god to be what you’d like him to be, instead of accepting what the real God has written in His perfect literal Holy Bible.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 28, 2014 at 5:11 am

                      Punishing eternally for finite sins is punishing beyond measure. The “real God” revealed in scripture and supremely in Jesus is a God who is gracious and merciful toward all and whose will is the salvation of all.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 28, 2014 at 1:52 pm

                      Mary, you are still judging God and imposing your standard of justice upon God.

                      O man, who art thou that repliest against God? {Romans 9: 20}

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 30, 2014 at 5:31 am

                      God “has endured with much patience….in order to make known the riches of his glory for the objects of mercy,” Paul says in Romans 9. The ultimate purpose of God is the revelation of his great mercy – not the doing of justice defined as retribution.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 1:06 am

                      Mary, you can’t have one without the other and Romans 9 clearly includes BOTH: mercy and wrath. There is no mercy if there isn’t retribution.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 2, 2014 at 5:24 am

                      If the wrath of God has been decisively worked out on the cross, then there is no retribution, only restorative punishment. The emphasis in Romans 9 is on God’s ultimate purpose of showing mercy.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 1:41 am

                  Mary to me writes: it makes no sense to me that “God would not have” you when you were seeking him at an earlier time in your life. The reason for that, dear Mary, is that you fail to understand the requirements of salvation. God waits until that human heart is contrite before He springs His salvation upon that individual. The sinner must know he is a sinner beyond his own self control, meaning he must desire Jesus not just as Savour, but as a much needed Lord to take him by the hand and lead him along the way. That’s Psalm 23 the Lord is my Shepherd. Such a popular Psalm, but it is so frivolously misunderstood. As my Shepherd He tells me I can trust every single word in His Holy Bible, unlike how you and Alice perceive the Book. See, that’s why I know it all makes no sense to you two and that’s why I can conclude neither one of you are saved. A sinner must make a choice between truth and falsehood, which requires knowledge, if he is to be saved. God doesn’t save out of thin air. Just look at what Jesus had to do to make His disciples fit for their salvation which didn’t occur until the Acts chapter two Day of Pentecost when they received God’s Holy Spirit. When Peter stood before the Apostles and brethren in Jerusalem after Cornelius was saved in chapter ten of Acts he uses the pouring out of the Holy Spirit as the assurance of Cornelius’ and his household’s salvation {11: 17; see also 18}. At the beginning of chapter ten Cornelius is not yet saved and the chapter tells how God brought to him the information he needed to believe unto salvation. Cornelius was a whole lot further along toward being saved than I was watching Billy Graham on TV before I was saved, yet God would not have him before He sent Peter to him. Only afterwards would God have Cornelius and his household too.

                  Why doesn’t it make sense to you? Because you are ignorant of Scriptural salvation since you haven’t experienced it yourselves mainly because of your poor view of Biblical inspiration, in other words, you don’t trust each and every word in the Holy Bible, but instead the skeptical view of scholars. You must be willing to take God at His every word to be saved, dear Alice and Mary. You’re not believers until you do.

                  • Mary Vanderplas May 28, 2014 at 5:30 am

                    So, salvation depends on having your “high” view of biblical inspiration (not including the times you explain away the plain meaning of the text because it doesn’t fit your doctrine) and believing that every word of the Bible is true? Why does this not sound like “for by grace you have been saved through faith”??

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 28, 2014 at 2:29 pm

                      Mary, grace still requires faith {the last word in your quote} and faith requires knowledge. Knowledge must be accurate. Accuracy requires the perfect literal Holy Bible.

                      Now that “high” view of biblical inspiration should sound exactly like “for by grace you have been saved through faith”

                      Mary, get with the high view and be saved. Repent your skepticism.

                    • Mary Vanderplas May 30, 2014 at 5:32 am

                      Faith is not a requirement by which you or anyone else is saved. And faith is not believing in a book, but trusting in a Person. Get with salvation as a gift of grace, not a reward for having a particular view of biblical inspiration.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 1:20 am

                      Again Mary, faith is believing what God said about Himself and what God said is WRITTEN in His perfect literal Holy Bible, so you can’t get away from believeing God’s Book: that’s required faith. The only way to be trusting in a Person, namely God, is to learn about Him in the Bible. That requires knowledge, right knowledge only, and that means trusting and believing each and every word of the Holy Bible as spelt. That right knowledge only comes by illumination from God per 2 Corinthians 4: 6 into the elect person’s heart by which he then is made capable to choose to accept it and reject all the former lies of Satan that he had believed.

                      how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God {1 Thessalonians 1: 9}

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 1, 2014 at 6:50 am

                      Believing the truth of scripture is not faith. Faith is trusting in the Person revealed in the book and supremely in Jesus Christ. And faith, while being the means by which we receive God’s gift, is not a requirement that we must fulfill in order to be made right with God. “Right knowledge” is not the basis of salvation any more than living rightly is.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 1, 2014 at 10:19 pm

                      Mary, how can you know “the Person revealed in the book” to trust Him without believing the Book that reveals Him? After all it is His Book that He wrote. If you can’t trust His Book, you certainly can’t trust Him. {His Book is the Holy Bible.}

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 6, 2014 at 6:13 am

                      The Bible is a means by which I come to know God. It is not the object of my trust, love, and devotion.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 7, 2014 at 12:25 pm

                      Mary, it is His Book that He wrote. If you can’t trust His Book, you certainly can’t trust Him. It is an either or situation. Either you trust God and ALL He does or you don’t trust Him at all. The moment you trust God all the way is the moment of true conversion and that’s why I can write you are not saved. God will not have half-hearted belief. He wants your whole heart or none of it.

                      So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: {Revelation 3: 16 & 17}

                      The point of children coming to Christ is that their faith holds nothing back. Why do we coax them to jump into mother’s arms, but to both teach them absolute trust and to enjoy that demonstration of absolute trust ourselves. That’s what God is all about doing and He accepts nothing less and enjoys nothing less. Salvation is when you make that leap. That’s the demonstration of genuine faith.

                      So, what will it be, Mary, do you want to be spit out of God’s mouth, or will make the leap because of what God really does? Don’t be fooled by Alice’s ironically heretical twists.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 8, 2014 at 7:09 am

                      Nowhere is it said that we are to trust in the Bible, only that we are to trust in God and take him at his word. The Word is Jesus Christ – the supreme revelation of who God is and what God does. It is in this God revealed in Jesus Christ – whom I come to know through the Bible and the Holy Spirit and the church – that I place my trust.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 2:17 am

                      Mary, since you distrust God’s Book, you distrust God. It is as simple as that. If you really trust God, then you equally as much trust the Book that reveals Him.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 10, 2014 at 5:41 am

                      If I really trust in God, I will not need to trust in a book but only in the One revealed in the book.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2014 at 11:46 pm

                      Mary, the One, revealed in the book, is revealed as having written the Book which necessitates you trust His Book. You are told to trust every word He spelt out in His book per Matthew 4: 4.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 13, 2014 at 5:14 am

                      I’m told to trust in God and to be nourished by his word – not to believe in a book that is the product of both divine and human action.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 11:51 am

                      Mary, WHERE are you going to learn what to trust? WHAT is your source? Where is His Word to be found, dear girl, except in His perfect literal Holy Bible? To have something to trust about God, where are you going to get it? You can’t trust in God without knowing something about God: you can’t just trust in G-o-d that has no meaning, no description. What is your authorative source of information that describes the God you trust? Where does this Source get its absolute authority? If you can’t trust your Bible, then what do you trust for your information about your God? What is your Authority for absolute truth?

                      Since God is transcendant, God must reveal Himself for us to trust Him. His revealing of Himself must be absolute truth for us to trust Him. God must obligate Himself to provide for us a source of absolute truth since He requires us to trust Him. That source of absolute truth must be obvious and undisputable.

                      Obviously the Holy Bible is indisputable to Fundamentalist Christians who have learned to trust God Who wrote His Bible using 40 different men over a span of 1,500 years without any disagreements or differences, with perfectly fulfilled literal prophecies concerning the First Advent to prove its infallibility and method of interpretation. In our life time, the comparison of all found Scripture fragments has established the spelling of nearly every word in the Bible, so that we have the most reliable Bible of all the centuries before us. We are indeed a blessed people and will be held to a very high standard of accountability for our disbelief, which God will see as only willful wthout excuse as we exalt our human wisdom above His divine wisdom.

                      It is foolish to claim to trust God, but not the Holy Bible.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 1, 2014 at 2:51 pm

    Alice writes, Please don’t read into what I’ve written here. Remember, I’m referring to the Creator as a character in a Hollywood flick.

    Yet she opposes God nevertheless and will not participate in any of His churches.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 1, 2014 at 8:14 pm

    Alice asks, Is it wicked? Is it violent?

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven; And he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. {Genesis 19: 24 & 25}

    Now that’s much more violent, but neither is wicked because God is righteous and there’s no darkness at all in Him. Alice raises the question to make you all doubt God’s holiness. It is all in her wordings that her wicked heart of unbelief is expressed and that she enlists your sympathies. This Alice is a sly devil to be sure.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 3, 2014 at 6:32 am

    Alice, out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. {Hebrews 7: 14} What do you suppose that means? You see you often claim that just because it doesn’t say “it” that doesn’t mean that “it” isn’t true. In particular, in John 17: 12 Jesus states Judas Iscariot is lost, perished; yet you claim since Jesus didn’t say he’s permanently lost, Jesus statement does not mean Judas will be eternally lost. God chose the tribe of Levi for His ministers and from the tribe of Levi He chose the sons of Aaron for His priests (referred to as the Levitical priesthood in Hebrews 7:11). Do you know what happened when some men who were NOT sons of Aaron tried to officiate as priests? Read Numbers 16. An earthquake swallowed up three whole families and fire from God consumed their 250 companions. Don’t be silly, Alice, it is correct to claim ONLY Aaron’s sons are priests. Jesus Christ never was a son of Aaron of the tribe of Levi. Jesus was the son of David born in the tribe of Judah, not Levi. Therefore Jesus Christ could NOT be a Levitical priest. No one from the tribe of Judah could be a priest nor any one from the other ten tribes of which Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. Therefore God had to make a new priesthood and He did it in anticipation of this problem way back in Abraham’s time, more than 430 years before Moses and the Law that established the Levitical Priesthood. God did it by bringing Melchisedec into Abraham’s path and making Him a priest. Melchisedec and His Priesthood were a One of a Kind until Jesus showed up. Only two Persons ever held the Melchisedec Priesthood, and that was Melchisedec and Christ. Since Mormons don’t understand Hebrews 7 and in fact change the wording, they don’t understand this and have two false priesthoods. Nevertheless, my point is that when God doesn’t say something, what He has already said is set in stone. He never said He’d save Judas Iscariot, so therefore Judas is permanently lost and perished; and your Christian Universalism is a fraud developed by this poor girl who will not accept God’s righteous judgment upon persons she loved who died without confessing Christ, namely eternal torment.

    When God doesn’t say something, what He has already said is set in stone.

    • Stephen Helbig May 5, 2014 at 12:58 am

      “The priesthood after the order of Melchizedek, is the priesthood of grace, mercy, love, reconciliation, and salvation” as seen in our LORD JESUS CHRIST ~ This priesthood is that to which we are called ~just as the pattern son ~ Jesus ~ the first born amoung many bretheren. God is raising up in the earth a Kingdom of Priests after this order of Melchizedek ~ and as SAVIOURS shall they come up on mount Zion to be the JOY of the whole earth! When men come to mount Zion they turn their weapons of destruction into instruments of blessing ~ “They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks” ~ SO Let us all go unto the mountain of the Lord and He Will TEACH US HIS WAYS! ~ The characteristic of the holy mountain of Zion is the Lamb ~ sacrificial, redeeming love! ~ Where Mercy and judgment kiss each other.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2014 at 1:31 am

        Stephen, join the Mormon club at take away the uniqueness of the Son of God.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2014 at 6:51 pm

        Stephen, “a Kingdom of Priests after this order of Melchizedek” is NOT Biblical, but a Stephen manufacture showing to what extent you wrestle Scripture and prove your eternal destiny.

        “After this order of Melchizedek” is ONLY used of the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one else, poor mormonized Stephen.

        Nevertheless, my point with “out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood” {Hebrews 7: 14} is that when God doesn’t say something, what He has already said is set in stone. He never said He’d save Judas Iscariot, so therefore Judas is permanently lost and perished; and your Christian Universalism is a fraud developed by this poor girl who will not accept God’s righteous judgment upon persons she loved who died without confessing Christ, namely eternal torment.

        When God doesn’t say something, what He has already said is set in stone.

        • Patrick Strickland May 12, 2014 at 2:22 pm

          Lanny has said:
          Stephen, ‘a kingdom of Priests after the order of Melchizedec” is NOT Biblical but a Stephen manufacture showing to what extent you wrestle Scripture and prove your eternal destiny.
          “After the order of Melchizedec” is ONLY used of the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one else, poor mormonized Stephen.
          Hi Lanny
          Melchizedec literally means king of righteousness and king of peace. This is what Jesus ministers because he rules as a king over righteousness and peace and ministers both to us. In 2 Corinthians 3 there is a very interesting comparison between the ministry of the law officiated by Moses and the tribe of Levi and the ministry of Christ. The law is called the ministry of death and condemnation, the letter that kills it had a glory but it was only a passing glory. The ministry of Christ on the other hand which we know is the ministry after the order of Melchizedec is described as a ministry of the Spirit that brings life and a ministry of righteousness with an unlimited glory that will not pass away. Furthermore scripture declares we are going to be changed into the very same image he has when we behold his Glory…

          But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
          (2Co 3:18 KJV)

          But I want you to pay particular attention to the very next verse:

          Therefore SEEING WE HAVE THIS MINISTRY, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
          (2Co 4:1 KJV)

          What ministry do we have why simple the SAME ministry that Christ has; a ministry of the spirit that gives life and ministers reconciliation, righteousness and unlimited glory. Which ministry just happens to be the same one He has after the order of Melchizedec.

          Who also hath MADE US able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
          (2Co 3:6-9 KJV)

          There are only two ministries listed in scripture the levitical and the Melchizedec One is the law and the other is grace. The ministry of the law will blind you to what scriptures actually mean and this blindness will continue till each of us comes to Christ and see his unlimited glory. 2 Cor 3:12:16 We have been given the very same limitless glory he has received from his Father and that glory we have received will make us one with them both even as they are one!! John 17:20-24 We have the same power of an endless life that Christ has, WE HAVE THE SAME MINISTRY, and we operate from THE VERY SAME PRIESTHOOD. AND WE HAVE the same mind he has, He is the head and we are members in particular of His body. We are one with him even as they are one. We are a kingdom of priests but we do not minister the law we do not minister death or condemnation we are not after the order of Levi, We are able ministers of the spirit and we minister righteousness and life therefore we must have the same ministry that the head has since we are members in particular of his body we are after the order of Melchizedec otherwise we would not be one with them even as they are one.

          The head Jesus is not of one order; and his body the church of another different order. That would be like saying that your head is a Baptist minister but your body is a Roman Catholic minister. Nothing but pure confusion. The head and the body must be of the same order. If your head is a baptist then your body is a baptist. If your head is a roman catholic then your body is a roman catholic. If the head is after the order of Melchizedec then the body is after the very same order of Melchizedec. Lanny If they are different then they are not one. And when we see his glory then we shall be changed into the very same image we are beholding from glory into glory, and it is his glory that makes us one even AS THEY ARE!!!
          In Hebrews 7 the Levitical priesthood is compared to the Melchizedec priesthood and a few interesting facts show up the Law could make nothing perfect but the bringing in of a better hope did by the which we draw nigh to God Heb 7:19 and second “such a high priest became US…” Hebrew 7:26 God wants us to be perfect in him and only the Melchizedec priesthood that christ has can minister that to us WHEREBY WE THEN CAN MINISTER THE SAME TO OTHERS.
          Additionally John testified in his epistle that …AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD .
          And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. Herein is OUR LOVE MADE PERFECT, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
          (1Jn 4:16-18 KJV)

          How can you be AS HE IS IF YOU ARE OF A DIFFERENT PRIESTHOOD? You can’t be. God wants US to be perfect in him and in his love AND YOU CAN’T BE THAT IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN BE AS HE IS NOW IN THIS WORLD. Jesus also said this concerning being perfect:
          The disciple is not above his master: but every one that IS PERFECT SHALL BE AS HIS MASTER.
          (Luk 6:40 KJV)

          Now I want to point out one more item concerning being perfect and that is the glory that makes us one with him even as they are one also makes us perfect in him.

          Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That THEY ALL MAY BE ONE, as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE: I in them, and thou in me, THAT THEY MAY BE MADE PERFECT IN ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

          (Joh 17:20-22 KJV)

          In Gal 4 Paul even makes an allegorical comparison between the law and the spirit especially for those who want to be just under the law.

          Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.
          (Gal 4:21-31 KJV)

          The law is for those who think that they are nothing but flesh; and genders to bondage and is literal Jerusalem which you can literally see and visit now…and is in bondage with her children. This makes Literal Jerusalem which now is the allegorical equivalent of Ishmael who is not the child of promise. So a strictly literal view of the scriptures comes from the ministry of the law and makes the one who lives by it minister death and condemnation to all who do not agree with their view.

          On the other hand whoever is born of the spirit is as Issac the child of promise and is free and answereth to new Jerusalem which is above who is mother of us all. The child of promise is Christ the son of God, and he ministers reconciliation, righteousness, grace, glory, forgiveness, and love to all he contacts.

          The reason we seem to never agree with each other Lanny is simple: You present a literal view of scripture and allegorically you are Ishmael the flesh man who is unknowingly under bondage after the order of Levi ministering the law which only ministers death and condemnation upon all who do not agree with their view of a literal bible. And I am presenting a spiritual view of scriptures and allegorically I am spirit man who is Issac the child of promise who ministers grace life reconciliation, righteousness, glory and love to all. The flesh always persecutes those who are after the spirit. The children of the flesh are more then the children of the spirit, and so it is today There are more who take a literal approach to the bible then there are who take a spiritual. But according to scripture only one is the actually the child of promise and that is the child who is free and knows that they are spirit.

          It is easy to tell the difference between the two if all you do is condemn the person who disagrees with you then you are living under the law, but if you love and forgive even those that disagree with you eventually by the glory of God you will bring them all into the very same glory that you have received from the Father.

          Seriously Lanny I am not trying to condemn you but to open your eyes to what you are actually ministering and to bring you up into a spiritual understanding of his word. I love you in the Lord and always have. I don’t have to agree with all you believe in order to love you.

          Grace and peace Patrick

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 15, 2014 at 1:35 am

            Patrick (& Stephen), in our place Jesus bore our sins in His own body on the cross as our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec. Nobody else does that anywhere in Scripture. Case closed: nobody else is a Priest after the order of Melchisedec. Nobody else is a lesser Priest after the order of Melchisedec. God swore and will not repent {Hebrews 7: 21b}. God never swore anybody else by an oath to that priesthood.

            Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. {Hebrews 6: 17 – 20}

            • Stephen Helbig May 16, 2014 at 2:36 am

              The only possible priesthood activity we can now engage in is to continually bring a SACRIFICE of the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to his Name; ~ “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!” ~ Note this; The feet are a part of the body and indeed Christ is our head. ~ And thus we present ~ IN LIKE MANNER ~ our bodies as a LIVING SACRIFICE unto God which is our rational “worship” ~ (Strongs 2999 /latreía(“technical, priestly-service”) http://biblehub.com/greek/2999.htm ~ (NOTE SEE Romans 12:1) ~ Also Yeilding our members as instruments of RIGHTEOUSNESS(right standing) and please note WE ARE the righteousness OF God IN CHRIST JESUS ~ co-heirs ~ We are His body ~ The body of Christ ~ NOT BY ANYTHING WE HAVE DONE BUT BY HIS MERCY ~ PROPITEATION ! ~ Seated UPON HIS THRONE ( THRONE / The Mercy-Seat)

              p.s. ~ ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. ‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to SIT DOWN WITH ME on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'” (Rev 3:20-22)

              p.s.s. ~ “But YE are a chosen generation, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD, AN HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” (I Pet. 2:9).

              p.s.s.t. ~ “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; and hast made us unto our God KINGS AND PRIESTS: AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH” (Rev. 5:9-10).

            • Patrick Strickland May 17, 2014 at 5:48 pm

              Lanny Jesus was a priest after the order of Melchizedec not because he died for our sins and bore them and was the lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, No he dear sir was a priest because of an oath sworn by God.

              Under the law every high priest was of levi, just like the rest of the priests were. Levi is nothing but a type and shadow of of a spiritual reality found in Christ, Jesus being the high priest after the order of Melchizedec and We are made a kingdom of priests after the very same order that our high priest has.

              Heb 7:26-28 KJV FOR SUCH AN HIGH PRIEST BECAME US, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens; (27) Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (28) For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

              The greek does not have the definite article before son in verse 28 so a more literal translation like Rotherham will have a closer translation to the original Greek.

              Heb 7:28 Rotherham For, the law, constituteth, men, high-priests, having, weakness; but,THE WORD OF THE OATH-TAKING, which cometh after the law, A SON, AGE-ABIDING, MADE PERFECT.

              The oath makes a son perfect. we are bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh and the church makes up the body of Christ. Jesus will always be the head but we as sons of God will always make up his body. There is only one Son of God but that son is made up of many members. We are in him and he is in us and the glory we have received from Jesus as I have already stated using many scriptures makes us perfect AND ONE WITH THEM EVEN AS THEY ARE ONE.

              It seems that we will have to just agree to disagree dear sir If you see that you are not after the order of Melchizedec then I will not judge you and condemn you.

              But I will always thank God for the oath to a Son which makes us perfect and complete in Him.

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 12:32 am

              Stephen/Patrick, tis true we cannot shed our blood for anybody’s sins and sprinkle it in the heavenly tabernacle, but that’s exactly why Jesus was made a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec, since He could not qualify as a priest because He was of the wrong lineage. He is BOTH the Sacrifice and the Priest offering it.

              How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? {Hebrews 9: 14 & 24} For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

              Stephen, God’s saints offer the sacrifice of thanksgiving, never our blood for an atonement, therefore their priesthood is not after Melchisedec.

              Patrick, why the oath of God, dear man, if it weren’t for atonement? Do you have an High Priest without a purpose? Certainly Jesus was made by God a High Priest by God’s oath and covenant {Hebrew 6: 17 & 18} but that’s not WHY He is an High Priest. God had a purpose: atonement. God had no other way to make Jesus an High Priest except by changing His Law, verses 12 & 16 of Hebrews 7, and now God’s saints are not under the Law that made certain men high priests, but are under the Law of the Holy Spirit {Romans 8: 1 & 2}

              Hey guys, God never swore you to the Melchisedec Priesthood, did He?

              • Patrick Strickland May 26, 2014 at 6:05 pm

                Hi Lanny

                When you said that God never swore “you” to the Melchisedec Priesthood, did He?

                My question to you is rather simple What “you” are you talking about? The “you” you think “you” are from birth, the old man the ego, the antichrist, flesh, carnal mind of man, which is a tare, and considered a goat, which is a combination of memories hopes dreams: or are you speaking about the real “you” created in Christ before the world began which is spirit, one with them even as they are one, the spiritual mind of man which has peace and life in him, the sheep, the wheat, the Son of God who is elohim.

                God never promised the you you think you are from birth anything but destruction at the cross and at the brightness of his appearing in the real you. But he did promise the Son of God. When we know we are in Christ then what he did we did; what he is we are.

                Consider for a moment that scripture declares that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek and he was not even there but was in Abraham. But because Abraham paid tithes Levi paid tithes. The same principle applies to us IN Christ when he died we died when He rose again from the grave we rose again, when He was RAISED UP AND MADE TO SIT IN HEAVENLY PLACES WE WERE RAISED UP AND MADE TO SIT IN HEAVENLY PLACES IN CHRIST JESUS. What he did God considered all humanity in him when he offered up his blood we were there offering up blood to God. When God swore that he was a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek then all of us in him WHO ARE SONS OF GOD were sworn to the very same ministry he has. The flesh old man is NOT a SON OF GOD.

                Here is a comparison between the old man and the new man. Both men are to be found in each of us who have ever walked upon the face of this planet: one is the man you think you are from birth and the other one the hidden man of the heart the real you. In every man on the face of this earth we can find two men. You can only live by the life of one at any given time.

                https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1427029117563957&set=a.1427029247563944.1073741828.100007706471703&type=1&theater

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 11:48 am

                  Nevertheless, Patrick, God never swore to you nor anybody else “you are a priest forever after the order of Melchisedec.” The only One to receive that oath was Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Look at your answer and see the wickedness of trying to press your false ideas.

                  • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 6:03 pm

                    If you are separate from him then no he never swore to that old man. But if you were in him the moment God swore to the head then he swore to the whole body of Christ both head and every other member that make up that one who is Christ.

                    Sorry Lanny we will have to disagree again.

                    I still love you even if we disagree.

                    Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 12:16 pm

                      Patrick, God swore to His Son not Christ’s body, the church. You over-extend much of everything disaproving yourself as an honest student of the Word of God.

                      For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: {1 Corinthians 5: 7} By your extention the church is the passover lamb. That’s foolish thinking, poor boy. Christ is unique from His people, so keep them so.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 29, 2014 at 6:38 pm

                      If the bible says as he is so are you in this world and then says we were crucified with him when he was crucified and we were ressurected and raised with him when he was…how is that over extending when even Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek and he was not even born? To say our new man is after the same priesthood as the head of the body is not overextending it is realizing who you really are. Created in the likeness of God.

                      Sorry but on this matter I have scriptures and I am not looking for you approval of what I believe. Neither am I insisting that you must believe the exact same thing I do. We are just on different levels of growth in God

                      When he died we all died that is scripture weather you like it or not read romans 6 and Gal 2:20

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 30, 2014 at 12:35 am

                      Patrick, you know you are going far beyond what the Scripture says by your LOGIC. God doesn’t go where you have gone. Jesus has the preeminence in His Priesthood.

                      And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {Colossians 1: 18}

                      Now are you going to let “all things” mean all including His Priesthood?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 30, 2014 at 12:11 pm

                      Patrick, How is it an over-extention if everything Jesus has is His saints’ because they are in Christ? Take for example

                      And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. {Colossians 1: 18}

                      His saints then are also the head of the same body. Then there are no members. There is no body, just heads.

                      Christ is the firstborn from the dead meaning His resurrection, so you would make His saints also firstborn because of their union with Him in His resurrection even though they haven’t yet been resurrected?

                      There’s only one Head, and there’s only one Firstborn, and there’s only one Priest after the order of Melchisedec that in all things he might have the preeminence.

                      Your foolishness logic disqualifies your doctrine from being taken seriously.

                    • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 6:35 pm

                      2Co 3:18 KJV But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the SAME IMAGE from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

                      What you see of HIS Glory is what you become.

                    • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 7:50 pm

                      Jesus never losses preeminence to those who have the same mind and come into equality with God because they always deeply know that without Jesus they would not have the ability or opportunity to be like he is.

    • Patrick Strickland May 8, 2014 at 11:42 am

      “When God doesn’t say something, what He has already said is set in stone.” Lanny declares.

      That is a very interesting statement you have made Lanny concerning Judas, but strangely there is some truth in it. But not in the way you are suggesting. Scripture is totally silent on one aspect you are bringing up but clearly it is not silent on another aspect. but regardless it is too bad that God did say something that totally contradicts what you are trying to claim concerning Judas . Now before we go into what he has said let us look at scripture for any place that God says that anyone is eternally lost or lost forever. After doing a search for both phrases in esword and any other combination I could think of including lost and never found … do you know what the results were that absolutely no where is anyone described as lost forever or lost eternally, lost permanently, or even lost and never found. Now we know from scripture that in order to establish truth you need two or three witnesses 2 Cor 13:1. And if your proposition were true then you should clearly see it in at the very least two scriptures yet scriptures are strangely completely silent on this point. So therefore it cannot be an established biblical truth that Judas is eternally permanently lost and never found.

      Now scripture does state that Jesus came to seek and save that which is “Lost”. Matt 18:11 Luke 19:10 And in a parable he declared that the shepherd would leave the 99 sheep and would seek the one that is lost TILL HE FIND IT! Luke 15:4 Judas now being “lost” is in the perfect condition to be sought after till he be found by Jesus who is called the good shepherd John 10:11-14. But scripturally that is not the only verses in the bible that contradict what you claim. From scripture we know what God’s will is: God will have ALL men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:1-6 We know that God has commanded all the ends of the earth to look and be saved, and he has sworn by his name that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in him they have righteousness and strength or as the new testament literally says in the Greek Jesus Christ is Lord into the glory. Isa 45:20-25 Phil 2:10-11 this word has gone forth in righteousness and will not return to him without accomplishing what HE sent it to do. That includes Judas eventually bowing his knee and covenant swearing that in him he has righteousness and strength. AND EVERYONE WHO CONFESSES AND BOWS THEIR KNEE WILL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. Which traditionally is where we appear for our judgment for rewards. Rom 14:7-12 Paul further describes this judgment of works in Corinthians where he states all of our works are going to be tried by fire, Many shall suffer loss but all shall be saved as by fire. If you build with wood hay or stubble you will suffer loss and not receive a reward, but you shall still be saved. I cor 3:8-15. This is going to happen whether you want to believe it or not. The simple fact is that God swore by his name that this is going to happen and according to scripture when God swears by his name that makes it immutable unchangeable and it must come to pass just like when he swore by an oath to make Jesus a priest after the order of Melchisedec. Heb 6:13-20 When God swears by his name this confirmation is to bring an end to all strife concerning what he swore to do. See Lanny we serve a living god who I personally implicitly trust to keep his sworn word to save ALL MEN especially those who believe. I Tim 4:9-11.

      Is Judas a man? Does he have a tongue? Does he have a knee? Then he must be saved and bow his knee and confess with his tongue that in him he has righteousness and strength and that Jesus Christ is Lord and this confession will bring him into the glory of God. If he does not save Judas then his sworn immutable word makes God nothing but a liar. And the Lord I serve is not a liar it is impossible for him to lie. Is the God you serve a Liar? See that is why the bible never describes anyone as being eternally permanently lost because God never intended to permanently lose anyone he created since he swore by his name to save all men.

      Lanny has said “Only two Persons ever held the Melchisedec Priesthood, and that was Melchisedec and Christ.”
      I would have to agree with you that only two persons have ever held the Melchisedec Priesthood but Christ is not a term used to just describe Jesus. Christ is a term that scripture uses for both the head Jesus and the church his body. Christ is one but has many members as I cor 12 describes. We who make up the body of christ are as much priests after the order of melchisedec as the head is. As He is so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17 And because of the glory that Christ received from His Father which Glory he then turned around and gave to us, We are now one with Jesus and the Father even as they are one with each other and can operate from the same ministry he has. John 17:20-22 The Levitical priesthood is a ministry that can only minister the law. The Melchisedec Priesthood is a ministry of grace and truth that ministers bread and wine of communion with the Father. The ministry of Christ is a ministry of reconciliation spirit, life, and righteousness and unlimited glory!! Not condemnation, death, the letter and a limited glory which passes away which falls under the prevue of Levi’s ministry. 2 Cor 3:1-4:6; 5:16-21

      Grace and peace Patrick

      • Stephen Helbig May 10, 2014 at 11:29 am

        Lanny A. Eichert says: May 8, 2014 at 6:51 pm ~ “Stephen, ‘a Kingdom of Priests after this order of Melchizedek’ is NOT Biblical, but a Stephen manufacture showing to what extent you wrestle Scripture and prove your eternal destiny. ‘After this order of Melchizedek’ is ONLY used of the Lord Jesus Christ, and no one else, poor mormonized Stephen.”

        Yet I see the following ~
        1Peter 2:9 ~ But you are a chosen generation, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light ~ This priesthood of which you have been called is after the order of Melchizedek and not the Levitical order of Aaron which was done away in Christ to establish the NEW ORDER ~ The first being the OLD and and the latter being the NEW

        Hebrews 5: (1)For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins; (2) he can deal gently with the ignorant and misguided, since he himself also is beset with weakness; (3)and because of it he is obligated to offer sacrifices for sins, as for the people, so also for himself. (4)And no one takes the honor to himself, but receives it when he is called by God, even as Aaron was.( 5)So also Christ did not glorify Himself so as to become a high priest, but He who said to Him,
        “YOU ARE MY SON,
        TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”;
        (6) just as He says also in another passage,
        “YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
        ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK.”

        Notice this; ~ Zechariah 6:13 ~ “Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule on his throne; and he shall be a priest on his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”

        Notice ~ “And he shall be a PRIEST upon his throne” ~ (With the majesty and power of a “KING”) ~ “KING of Kings and LORD of Lords” ~ And the consul of peace shall be between them both. The Perfect High Priest and KING OF KINGS

        In all the acts of His government as a KING, He Now Prosecutes His intentions as a PRIEST. Let all of mankind now look unto God, that believe in God, and are subject to Him, look on His throne, as a throne of glory and of righteous judgment, ~ No longer with terror but amazement and admiration. For there is a rainbow round about the throne, which speaks of promise, and there is a priest upon the throne, which makes reconciliation, and His office as a priest is no diminution to His dignity as a KING for they are THE SAME, ~ “and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.” ( BOTH OFFICES)
        His dignity as a king (righteousness) has efficacy (the power to produce a desired result or effect) for his intercessions and services as our high priest. “ THE COUNSEL OF PEACE SHALL BE BETWEEN THEM BOTH” (both offices) (KING ~ PRIEST).

        Notice this; ~ Psalms 85:10 ~ “Mercy and truth meet together. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other.”

        Again ~ “He should build the temple of the Lord,” as none beside ever built it; He should bear glory, as none beside ever bare it, ~ NOTICE; ~ “The glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, FULL of GRACE and TRUTH” John 1:14.

        Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, …

        Notice this; ~ “The counsel of peace shall be between them both”; ~ By His priestly operation He shall make amends for our sin, by the power of His Kingly office He shall remove our sin; ~ As Priest He makes Peace, ~ As King He maintains, peace; ~ Purchased by our Priest, Redeemed by the Blood ~ Protected by our King. ~ The NEW covenant ~ The NEW heavens and earth ~ “You are a chosen generation, a ROYAL PRIESTHOOD a holy nation, a people for his own; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light”

        ___________________________________________________________

        Isaiah 9:2 ~ The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of deep darkness a light has dawned.

        Isaiah 42:16 ~ I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.

        Revelation 1:6 ~ And has made us kings and priests to God and his Father; to him be …

        Revelation 5:10 ~ And have made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 10, 2014 at 4:04 pm

        Patrick, in your use the 99 would have to be the saved majority of the world for Judas Iscariot to be the one lost sheep of the minority of the world. Biblical history does NOT cast the world’s population as 99% believers and 1% unbelievers, poor fellow. You INVERT God’s description of the world to your own destruction as Satan also did. Whose doctrinal methods are you following?

        Jesus proved you wrong in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 telling you FEW be saved and MANY be lost. You invert Jesus’ words.

        If you can’t get the meaning of the ninety and nine, who’d expect you to get Melchisedec correct?

        • Patrick Strickland May 14, 2014 at 4:39 pm

          Hi Lanny I have a few a few questions for you.

          Since you read what Jesus said literally does that mean that he only has 100 sheep? That only 100 people are saved? And anybody above that number really does not belong to him? What happens that while he seeks the one sheep that is lost the 99 wander off and become lost will he refuse to seek them? What would have happened if Jesus would have said that the 99 were lost and the one was found and that he would leave the one and seek the 99 till he found them would that change the true meaning of what he had to say? It does not matter how many he said he owned the point is that if he lost a sheep that he owned he would seek it till he found it! That is the point of the parable. Now how many sheep does he own? How many people did he die for at the cross?

          Moffat translation of scripture says:
          Rom_6:10 the death he died was for sin, ONCE FOR ALL, but the life he lives is for God.
          2Co_5:14 for I am controlled by the love of Christ, convinced that as ONE HAS DIED FOR ALL, THEN ALL HAVE DIED,
          2Co_5:15 and that HE DIED FOR ALL in order to have the living live no longer for themselves but for him who died and rose for them.
          1Pe_3:18 Christ himself died for sins, ONCE FOR ALL, a just man for unjust men, that he might bring us near to God; in the flesh he was put to death but he came to life in the Spirit.
          Tit 2:11-14 For the grace of God HAS APPEARED TO SAVE ALL MEN, (12) and it schools us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions and to live a life of self-mastery, of integrity, and of piety in this present world, (13) awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, (14) WHO GAVE HIMSELF UP FOR US TO REDEEM US FROM ALL INIQUITY and secure himself a clean people with a zest for good works.

          Gal 3:11-14 KJV But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

          JESUS DID NOT DIE JUST FOR A FEW WHO MAY BELIEVE: BUT HE DIED FOR ALL MEN.
          Now let us go back an actually look at the context of Matthew 7 Jesus was not speaking to those he died for since he had not died yet, but to those who were living under the law who were judging others and walking the broad way of destruction not realizing that as they judged others they must be judged with the very same measure they used to judge someone else with.

          Mat 7:1-2 Moffatt NT Judge not, that you may not be judged yourselves; (2) for as you judge so you will be judged, and the measure you deal out to others will be dealt out to yourselves.

          Jesus was trying to teach them that you reap what you sow if you judge others guilty of something then how you treat them is how others will treat you. But if you want people to treat you with respect or love you must treat them with respect and love.

          Mat 7:12 Moffatt NT Well then, whatever you would like men to do to you, do just the same to them; that is the meaning of the Law and the prophets.

          The law can cause someone to become self righteous, judgmental of those who don’t believe thee same way they do and religious and will make them think they are actually walking the path of life when all they are doing is walking the broad way of destruction. There is a way that seems right to man but the end thereof is death Pro 14:12;16:25. That way was never the way of sin. The way of sin has never seemed right to those caught up in it. No the way that seems right to men is the way of living by the law a religious way. Where men think they are actually doing the will of God but they are absolutely not. Living by the law does not require that you actually know God. That is why when those who are living by the law appear before God seeking to be justified they are told by God himself depart from me ye workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU. God is clearly saying that a person is not justified by what they do after the flesh no matter if they prophecy, cast out demons or any other good work that they may do, but that they must know Him and do his will. And scripture clearly declares that his will is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and Jesus taught us that we must pray for his will to be done in earth as it is in heaven. Knowing God and actually doing his will is the only way we shall be justified by God and get to enter his kingdom that is why he guarenteed an answer to prayer when you pray his will.

          1Jn 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

          There are two men in each of us: and we are the temple of the Holy ghost, the old man who we think we are from birth which is a lie called the flesh the son of perdition, the antichrist, the wicked: and the new man who was created in him from before the foundation of the world, the truth called spirit, Christ, righteous. And God is not saving the old man, because that is the tree that satan planted in the garden the tare. God is only saving what he planted in each of us, that which is created in his likeness and image. When God comes to be glorified in us, the new man will shine in the brightness of his glory 2 cor 3:18 and the wicked will be destroyed by the very same brightness of his appearing. 2 th 1:8-2:14

          I can only share with you what I see, I can’t make you believe it. Only God can give you the revelation of his truth. But I do know one thing I will not condemn you, judge you, nor hate you if don’t agree with me. But I will continue to follow the will of God and I will love you forgive you for any thing you try to insult me with or even do to me and I will continue to pray the will of the father for all men to be saved and come into the truth. And in his time I know he will bring all including Judas into his saving grace and truth. It cannot be any other way he guarenteed it by his word that if I pray anything according to his will he hears me and I have whatsoever I am praying for. My confidence relies solely upon Actually knowing Him and believing what he has promised to do.

          Grace and peace Patrick

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 16, 2014 at 12:26 am

            Patrick, Romans 6:10 is preceded by verse 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. Your ONCE FOR ALL does not mean for all people, but once for all time and eternity, or in other words, it is FINISHED, a one time transaction. All the work that needed to be done was accomplished and nothing more needs to be done.

            You disqualify yourself when you make one Greek word, an adverb at that, mean more than just how many times He died.

            ἐφάπαξ ephapax From ἐπί (G1909) and ἅπαξ (G530)

            How many texts use this word, dear boy? How many times do you use the Word of God deceitfully? 1 Peter 3: 18 ἐφάπαξ also. TWICE are you found deceitfully using wrong texts because you used the wrong translation incorrectly making it say what you deceitfully want it to say.

            Alice and you, her friends, have done the same thing when they insist age-during has an end when speaking of torment. You all make texts say what they don’t because you choose not to believe eternal torment and you rebel against God just like Satan.

            • Patrick Strickland May 18, 2014 at 3:19 pm

              You are absolutely right I missed it by adding those two verses from Moffat because I did not take the time to look fully at the verse in the greek I will be more careful and will take the time top look at the greek before I add a verse. I fully agree with those verses that you brought up that Jesus only died one time. We do agree completely on that fact. Those two verses do support that Jesus only died once and never is going to die again. But that does not change the fact that the rest of the verses in that section you pulled those two verse from completely support that when he died once he DIED FOR ALL and ALL are dead in God’s eyes. 2 Cor 5:14,15 Which is the point that I was making. So I was not being intentionally deceitful as you suppose. But only doing a search in a translation and quoting verses that met the search parameter, without looking at the original Greek.

              Thanks for pointing out the error that I made. I truly appreciate you taking the time to point that out to me.

              So one more point to address. As to the last paragraph of your post No I don’t rebel against God I just rebel against the traditions and beliefs of men that make The Word of God – Christ in me of none effect in my life.

              Do you really want to know what everlasting punishment is? It is living in fear. As long as anyone lives in fear they are going to live in torment. The message of eternal torment is nothing but a message of fear that brings nothing but torment to the one who is living by fear. But since eternal and everlasting are translated from the word aionios which does not mean either but is the adjective of the noun aion which means age, therefore the adjective means referring or pertaining to an age and that age ends for all mankind when each of us individually comes to perfect love- comes to know that Christ in in them and they are in Him and are one with the Father and thee Son even as they are one with each other, then they recognize that they are in love and perfect love casts out all fear and the torment that it brings.

              Did you know that the word punishment in Matthew 25:46 and the word torment in I John 4:18 are the same word?

              1Jn 4:16-18 KJV And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

              We are all going through the torment of fear till we come to perfect love and If your message is one of fear then it is not of perfect love which is God.

              it is God’s will that at the fulness of time He is going to gather together in one ALL THINGS INTO CHRIST.

              Eph 1:9-10 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

              Grace and peace Patrick

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 12:50 am

              Patrick, a long time ago now Alice admitted there are ages that do not end, so your definition is not appropriate to the context. There is an age of torment that does NOT end. It is called eternal torment. AKA the Lake of Fire where all unbelievers land and never leave.

              You are deceitfully trying to deny this Biblical truth. All such denial is deceitful. You lie against the truth of God, just like Satan, when he told Adam and Eve they will not die, yet you blame tradition as the lie. You do exactly what the Mormons out here do when they proclaim all the creeds abominal and doctrines of men.

              • Patrick Strickland May 22, 2014 at 5:27 pm

                There are so many issues that need to be dealt with these two posts that deal with eternal I almost do not know where to begin.
                We have discuseed this many times before. We know from scriptures that aions then noun meaning age and the adjective aionios meaning pertaining to an age have beginnings and they do have endings. For something to truly be eternal as we understand it it must have no beginning and no ending and must be endless. Only one item in all of scripture qualifies and that is God. As I have stated before the length of a man’s lifetime can be described as aionios or the lifetime of a may fly can be described as aionios. Any creatures lifetime can be considered aionios. Even objects such as mountains, stars galaxy’s metaphorically can be considered to have a lifetime they are born they grow and they die therefore they can be described as aions or even aionias. God’s life is described as aionios life in scripture and since we know that his life never begins and never ends and He does not change; Then we can easily conclude that aionos in this case is clearly endless therefore it is eternal as are any and all of His characteristics. So I have never denied that aionios can mean eternal, it is limited to that meaning when only describing God, because only God is truly eternal.
                However eternal torment, punishment, chastisement, has a beginning. Therefore it truly cannot be considered eternal. Searching scriptures you can find scriptures that describe the life of God as having no end, and endless; sadly when talking about torment chastisement or punishment there are no verses I have found yet that say that it is without end, or even endless. Now for a quick English lesson a adjective modifies the noun it is associated with but does not carry the exact same meaning when used more than two times in a sentence Each adjective modifies the noun it is associated with and do not have the same exact meaning if the nouns are different. For example a BIG atom used in the same sentence with a Big Galaxy does not by any stretch of the imagination mean they they are both the same size. Neither does a sentence describing eternal life and eternal punishment mean they are the same length of time since scripture is clear that aions are ages which have beginnings and endings and for the reasons described in many pages I have written to you I cannot see that torment punishment or chastisement is eternal as you suppose but only last for a period of time until the purpose of God correcting us and burning out the old man lies is complete then all men will know that what God has sworn by His name is their reality and they will know that they are in Him and He is their righteousness and strength.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 24, 2014 at 1:46 am

                  Patrick, you allow age to mean eternal in reference to God. That means the definition depends on context. So when attributes of God are modified by age they are eternal. What is man? Since he has a beginning he can’t be eternal, but does he have an end? No. He has an everlasting soul that has a beginning but no ending. Therefore the torment of his soul has a beginning but no ending. Why haven’t you thought that way? Jude 6 in KJV says everlasting chains while Romans 1: 20 says eternal since it is of God. Since the SAME words are translated by both words, yes, it is more technically correct to speak of everlasting torment than eternal torment, but the catch phrase on this website is eternal torment. I have been using it to mean the more correct everlasting torment. Either way it is ET as is also often mentioned here. ET can be either eternal torment or everlasting torment. I am absolutely sure on this site nobody has been thinking I have been promoting torment of a human soul before it was ever created. I am sure everybody has been understanding eternal torment to mean it begins at physical death and never ends. Let’s take a vote. Please sign up if you want me to change my useage from eternal torment to everlasting torment. If you do then I will understand anybody writing eternal torment means w/o beginning as well as w/o ending: a pure impossibility and illogical meaning since such could only apply to God Who would be tormenting Himself. Did I get your meaning correctly and will you get mine?

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 24, 2014 at 1:59 am

                    Anybody, do you see how deceitful it is to argue against eternal torment simply because it doesn’t have a beginning? The same thing is true about the eternal soul of man. Yes, technically it is everlasting, but common useage of eternal in both cases is acceptably meaning everlasting.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 6:31 pm

                      Funny scripture never mentions an eternal soul, but the traditions of men do… Scripture also never says that torment or correction has no end, or is endless.So your case to make aionios eternal is not as strong as you are promoting.

                      So if you can present any that say that I would appreciate it.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 12:32 pm

                      Patrick, what’s the use of all your arguing against eternal torment if man will cease to exist any way? Nothing matters according to you since everything merges into God without distinction. Your excess is evident and disqualifies you.

                      The “with” of “and so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1 Thessalonians 4: 17} means God’s saints are as everlastingly distinct as God is eternal.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 30, 2014 at 3:42 pm

                      Is an eye the same as a hand? or is a tongue the same as a stomach? Is the heart the same as the brain? No of course not they are all distinct and fulfill vital roles, but yet they all are parts of one body. We do not lose our distinctness just because we are members in particular in his body. One body many members dear sir. We do lose the lie of who we think we are after the flesh but that is not the real you. You are spirit.

                      Scriptures declare the soul that sins dies. EZE 18:4,20 It does not say the soul that sins dies then gets tortured for all eternity.
                      Scripture says that the body and the soul can be destroyed in gehenna; Matt 10:28 but it does not say that God is going to torture the soul of the old man forever.
                      Scripture declares that if we seek to save our soul we shall lose it; and if we lose our soul then we shall find it.Matt 16:25

                      The old man who we think we are can sin but the new man who we really are cannot sin. Christ is that new man and we read that God will not leave his soul in sheol. Psa 16:10 Acts 2:27,31.

                      The soul of the old man is not eternal it can be lost destroyed and die. but the soul of Christ is eternal. Christ is a many membered man in one. I cor 12 12-27.

                      Jas 1:21 KJV Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

                      The en-grafted word is not memorizing scripture the pharisees did that and Jesus said that they did not have His word living in them. No the en-grafted word is the living word as a seed in us germinating and growing in us as a living vine. John 15 The living word is Christ in us and us in him. His life becomes our life his soul becomes our soul his mind becomes our mind his spirit becomes our spirit. Ans as we abide in him where we have been placed then we shall bear much fruit of the spirit.

                      Gal 5:22-25 KJV But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (24) And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (25) If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 2:19 am

                      Patrick, you appear totally disconnected.

                  • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 6:24 pm

                    And because it has a beginning that is the very reason that it cannot be everlasting or eternal.and must default to the real meaning of age or pertaining to an age. Kolasis is correction and all God’s corrections have a purpose. Corrections end when the corrected learns from their mistakes. God’s corrections are to teach us righteousness. God is a parent who is correcting His children in love. If we were to attempt to treat our children like Your god does we would be thrown into prison and our kids would be removed from our care.

                    Adam was called a son of God And God is not going to allow any son of his to remain without correction. That would mske them bastards and God has no bastards.

                    In Adam all die in Christ all shall be made alive.

                    If all you see is a god that judges good and evil and gives eternal life as a reward to the good and eternal correction to those who are evil then you are only judging by appearance and not judging a righteous judgment.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 12:21 pm

                      Patrick, not “eternal correction” but eternal everlasting torment, punitive torment, not remedial. They are beyond correction as I fear for you.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 30, 2014 at 4:16 pm

                      Lanny kolasis does mean correction. Look it up you have a Strong’s and a Thayer’s don’t you?

                      No man is beyond God’s correction.

                      Gods love and his judging the world and all it ‘s inhabitance in righteousness is restorative not punitive.

                      God does not judge by the appearance of good and evil. He judges in righteousness truth which is the Hebrew word emunah and means truth, faith, faithfulness and He judges in equity.

                      As I have proven from scriptures God judges ALL guilty of sin in Adam. and they all die and he judges them all in Christ and they are all righteous. Rom 5:18,19 Scripture also declares as we have all borne the image of the earthly we All shall also bear the image of the heavenly. I Cor 15:47-49. That is a judgment in equity.

                      God is no respecter of man what he has done for one he does for all. Rom 2:11 He rains on the just and the unjust alike.Matt 5:45

                      And when God’s (righteous) judgments are in the earth the inhabitance shall learn righteousness. Isa 26:9

                      Judging some righteous and some wicked is not a judgment in equity and is only a judgment by sight and not by faith and equity and righteousness.

                      All men’s works shall be judged if they have built with their old man nature using wood hay and stubble their works will be burned to ashes and leave nothing. But if they have built with the Christ nature gold silver and precious stones then what they have done in Christ will remain and they will get a reward. Those who suffer loss will still be saved. That is what scriptures declare.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 2:10 am

                      Patrick, you sure know how to butcher Scripture. You are disqualified.

              • Patrick Strickland May 22, 2014 at 6:45 pm

                Lanny has said:

                “You are deceitfully trying to deny this Biblical truth. All such denial is deceitful. You lie against the truth of God, just like Satan, when he told Adam and Eve they will not die, yet you blame tradition as the lie. You do exactly what the Mormons out here do when they proclaim all the creeds abominal and doctrines of men.”

                LOL I only deny what men call biblical truth which happens to actually be nothing more than the traditions of men which make the word of God of none effect.

                Isa 45:19-24 KJV I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

                Tradition which you agree with says we serve a god who cannot Armenism or will not save all men Calvinism. But wants to torture most forever.

                God says you serve an idol that cannot save.

                (21)Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look ( this is a command not a request) unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

                Tradition says did God say he wants to save ALL the ends of the earth by looking unto him. no he only wants to save someone who will accept him and believe in him during their lifetime.
                God says you serve an idol that cannot save. (God never put a time limit on looking) I commanded all to look and all the ends of the world will look and be saved.

                (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

                Tradition says that this word that has gone out of God’s mouth in righteousness will return to God without being fulfilled not all are going to be saved. Did God actually sware by his name to save all men nah we know he does not want all men saved.

                God has sworn by His name making it immutable and has spoken in righteousness he has judged righteously and his word sent will not return to him without accomplishing what he sent it to do that he will have all the ends of the earth saved and every knee will bow and EVERY TONGUE will confess that IN HIM they have righteousness and strength or that Jesus Christ is Lord.
                Rom 10:9-10 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth into righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made into salvation.

                Php 2:11 And that EVERY TONGUE should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, into the glory of God the Father.
                Rom 14:10-12 KJV But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

                Tradition says oh those in hell will confess that jesus is Lord but they won’t be saved. The judgment seat of Christ is only for believers rewards not for the wicked who will never be saved but will burn forever.

                God says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confesses Jesus Christ is Lord is saved and will appear before the judgment seat of Christ. And their confession will bring them into the glory of God the Father. This is an immutable fact that tradition ignores to their shame.

                1Ti 2:3-6 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

                Tradition says God only wishes to save all he really does not want to save all men. God really wants to burn most men because they deserve it.

                God says He will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Tradition serves an idol they think is me but that god is a god of their imagination who cannot save.

                1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

                Tradition says that we trust in a living god who is NOT the saviour of ALL Men except those that believe.

                God says go back and read what I said. I am the Saviour of ALL men, especially those that believe.

                Tradition always asks did God actually say that? Did He really mean that? TRADITION IS NOTHING BUT A LIE.

                No Lanny I have always told you that you need to ask God in you what He meant by what he had written. That is why he has given to each of us an anointing to teach us and lead us into all truth. I have never said did God say and then try to put forth a tradition that contradicts what he had written in His word. As I said before I can find word for word what I believe but unfortunately when I have tried to nail down certain beliefs you claim are absolute scriptural… In most cases you have not been able to point out clear concise scriptures that say exactly what you claim they do without reading into them what you claim. For instances I am still looking for the verse that says that after death there is no repentance. Yet I have provided you with at least four instances from scripture of after death repentance. You want me to accept what you read into scripture as if it actually is there.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 24, 2014 at 11:36 am

                  Patrick: Yet I have provided you with at least four instances from scripture of after death repentance. Yet he didn’t list them again here as such because they are not detailed in their context as immediately RESULTING in salvation.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 24, 2014 at 11:48 am

                    What four texts, Patrick, speak of after physical death repentance resulting in salvation? That salvation must only be PARTIAL salvation seeing as you claim they have already experienced some period of partial condemnation. That is contrary to Romans 8: 1 and you can’t seem to see that. Would you have a god that only partially saves the majority of humanity. You still then end up with a god that loves to torment men.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 24, 2014 at 11:52 am

                      Patrick, your god torments most men before he saves them. He’s a sadist.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 26, 2014 at 6:40 pm

                      Well let us compare for just one moment and see who is a greater sadist.

                      You god torments men before they die then torments them eternally without end without any mercy after they die if they do not accept or even hear about Jesus. Who is a bigger sadist? Now be honest Lanny who is the bigger sadist the one who allows a short time of suffering then destroys what is causing us to be separate from his life in us and then saves us all or the one that cause an unending torment for most.

                      My God says that:

                      Lam 3:31-34 KJV For the Lord will not cast off for ever: (32) But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies. (33) For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. (34) To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,

                      If my God does wrong then he obligates himself because he is Love to fix it. Does your God do that? No Lanny we both know he does not.

                      Which view is actually glad tidings of great Joy to ALL Men that the angels sang about?

                    • Patrick Strickland May 26, 2014 at 7:40 pm

                      Go back and read dear sir I have given them to you many times but I will give you a hint they include Samara Sodom Jerusalem Moab, restored after destruction; and Israel being grafted back in to the tree. since all Israel will be saved.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 11:58 am

                      Patrick asks: “If my God does wrong then he obligates himself because he is Love to fix it. Does your God do that?”

                      His question admits his god does wrong and is obligated to fix it. His has a pitifully imperfect god.

                      Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. {Matthew 5: 48} Jesus said God is perfect, but Patrick doesn’t seem to hear Jesus’ words and neither do others on this site.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 1:29 pm

                      Patrick will not state the four texts of Samara Sodom Jerusalem Moab, restored after destruction because they require his lengthy false interpretation to mean salvation after physical death. That you even think the literal cities of Sodom and Gomorrah which God destroyed by fire and brimstone would ever be rebuilt tells me how foolish your interpretations are and how incapable you are at understanding God’s salvation.

                      Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

                      Your text says that they’d return to their FORMER glory as described above in Jude, the glory of their wickedness before they were destroyed by f & b from God. Fat chance. That’s the point of the text you so foul up. You have to this point been unable to so understand the text’s obvious meaning because you are wearing rose colored glasses bent on seeing it your way instead of God’s: eternal torment (everlasting torment).

                    • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 10:00 pm

                      LOL!!LOL!!LOL!!

                      Have you ever read I john 4:12-18 dear sir God is love. And in order for us to be perfect we must be perfected in love. As he is so are we in this world. So if you really want to quote that scripture then you should read it as be ye therefore perfect in love even as your Father in heaven is perfect in love.

                      It really is all about LOVE! And the responsibility that love has to their children.

                      Love always takes responsibility for any and all wrongs that it appears to make, and love will always restore and fix what needs restoration.

                      That is why I can’t believe in the god you present: he does not take any responsibility for his children. He is not real love.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 12:40 pm

                      Patrick says, “I can’t believe in the god you present” and for that he will reap his reward for refusing the truth of everlasting torment by his twisting of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 29, 2014 at 2:26 pm

                      Dear Lanny concerning the four examples it is not that I refuse to answer you I am trying to be succient as you have asked. Since I have already extensively covered this issue. But since you do not desire to search out what I have already written on the subject which is on this site, let us do a semi quick review.
                      Sodom is an example of everlasting fire. Jude 1:7
                      LITERAL:
                      Historically there was a city called Sodom which was because of it’s sins destroyed by literal fire. Unfortunately today you can go to where the city existed and cannot find a literal fire still burning. If truly everlasting fire as you suggest then you should find it still burning. Fire went out when no more fuel existed. While fire was burning no man could put it out till it accomplished it’s purpose. Literally Aionios fire is not everlasting, but only pertains to an age!!!
                      METAPHORICALLY:
                      Sodom is in Hell burning with a metaphoric everlasting fire and you and most traditional religion contend that fire will not end. But scriptures do not support that view. Scriptures declare something different. Because of how great Jerusalem’s sins God declares that he is going to turn back Sodom and Samaria’s captivity because their sins were less then Jerusalem’s, and will restore them before he has mercy upon Jerusalem and restores them.
                      Eze 16:50-63 CLV And they are haughty and do abomination before Me, And I turn them aside when I have seen.” (51) As to Samaria, as the half of your sins–she has not sinned, And you do multiply your abominations more than they, And do justify your sisters by all your abominations that you have done.” (52) You also–bear your shame, That you have adjudged to your sisters, Because of your sins that you have done more abominably than they, They are more righteous than you, And you, also, be ashamed and bear your shame, In your justifying your sisters.” (53) And I HAVE TURNED BACK THEIR CAPTIVITY, THE CAPTIVITY OF SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS, AND THE CAPTIVITY OF SAMARIL AND HER DAUGHTERS, AND THE CAPTIVITY OF YOUR CAPTIVES IN THEIR MIDST, (54) So that you do bear your shame, And have been ashamed of all that you have done, In your comforting them.” (55) And your sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS DO TURN BACK TO THEIR FORMER STATE.AND YOU AND YOU DAUGHTERS DO TURN BACK TO YOUR FORMER STATE. (56) And your sister Sodom has not been for a report in your mouth, In the day of your arrogancy, (57) Before your wickedness is revealed, As [at] the time of the reproach of the daughters of Aram, And of all her neighbors, the daughters of the Philistines, Who are despising you round about.” (58) Your devices and your abominations, You have borne them, an affirmation of Yahweh.” (59) For thus said the Lord Yahweh:I have dealt with you as you have done, In that you have despised an oath–to break covenant.” (60) And I–I have remembered My covenant with you, In the days of your youth, And I have established for you a covenant eonian.” (61) And you have remembered your ways, And you have And I–I have established My covenant with you, And you have known that I been ashamed, In your receiving your sisters–Your elder with your younger, And I have given them to you for daughters, And not by your covenant.” (62) [am] Yahweh.” (63) So that you do remember, And you have been ashamed, And there is not to you any more an opening of the mouth because of your shame, In My receiving atonement for you, For all that you have done, An affirmation of the Lord Yahweh!'”

                      THIS IS NOT SARCASM THIS IS A PROMISE OF GOD TO TURN BACK AND RESTORE THEM TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE SODOM AND SAMARIA AND JERUSALEM ARE ALL INCLUDED IN THAT PROMISE! When Sodom gets restored then you will have proof that metaphorical everlasting fire is not eternal but only pertains to age of captivity that has a beginning and has an end and gets turned back and the prisoners released. I don’t have to see it in order to believe it I simply take God at his word and believe that it will happen. God never said that Sodom will ‘NOT’ turn back and that they will ‘NOT’ return to their former estate. To insist otherwise is to not believe the literal perfect bible you believe in.

                      CONCLUSION:
                      Both literal and metaphorical everlasting fire in reference to Sodom DO NOT last eternally but both end. So therefore both views literal and metaphorical are not eternal or everlasting. Therefore aionios means pertaining to an age. Remember Lanny this is God”s example of everlasting fire and it does completely contradict what tradition has taught you. So do you think it is time to let go the lies you believe that contradict scriptures?

                      In the love of Christ Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 30, 2014 at 1:04 am

                      Patrick, when an unbeliever physically dies, does he stop sinning? Does he stop thinking? Remember what Jesus said about lustfully looking at a woman or having hateful thoughts about a person: the sin is entertaining the thought. There is conscious existence after death in hell’s fire which includes torment requiring conscious thought processes. They continue in conscious unbelief which is rebellion against God, which is sinful thoughts after physical death. They cannot ever stop sinning. Since they cannot stop sinning their punitive torment can never stop. The fire never runs out of fuel because they never stop sinning. They forever blaspheme God. They are God’s garbage: every person whom Alice loved who died without confessing Christ is God’s garbage destined to burn everlastingly in God’s garbage can called the Lake of Fire.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 8:06 am

                      Patrick, Sodom in her former state {Ezekiel 16: 55} is her homosexuality that caused God to destroy her with fire and brimstone.

                      Patrick, when an unbeliever physically dies, does he stop sinning? Does he stop thinking? Remember what Jesus said about lustfully looking at a woman or having hateful thoughts about a person: the sin is entertaining the thought. There is conscious existence after death in hell’s fire which includes torment requiring conscious thought processes. They continue in conscious unbelief which is rebellion against God, which is sinful thoughts after physical death. They cannot ever stop sinning. Since they cannot stop sinning their punitive torment can never stop. The fire never runs out of fuel because they never stop sinning. They forever blaspheme God. They are God’s garbage: every person whom Alice loved who died without confessing Christ is God’s garbage destined to burn everlastingly in God’s garbage can called the Lake of Fire.

                      Sodom will never be restored to her homosexuality: God will not reverse His judgment upon her wickedness. The everlasting fire never goes out because the dead never stop sinning in their hearts.

                    • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 5:02 pm

                      Lanny has said: Patrick says, “I can’t believe in the god you present” and for that he will reap his reward for refusing the truth of everlasting torment by his twisting of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible.

                      I am willing to lay down my old man so he can burn it up in his fire. I am not scared of the fire I know it is there to purify me from all things that will not allow me to be in His express image. and the fire will only burn what is not like it. And when all is burned up then like Sodom I will be fully restored to my first estate. The first estate is not to the flesh man fallen into sin but is to the man that existed in God before the fall. God is a consuming fire and when we behold his glory then we shall be changed into the very same image from glory to glory. That new man hidden deep inside of this clay pot will be revealed ..to be fire. So fire cannot burn fire.

                      We are exactly like what Gideon held in his hand when he and his three hundred fought the Midianites We are all clay pots with candles on the inside the pots are going to be destroyed at the sounding of the message of God so that the lamp in us can be revealed.

                      Don’t worry Lanny God is not restoring the sin man but he is restoring Sodom to it’s first estate in Adam before the fall. God created all men in his image and he is not about to allow a false image we all as mankind have held unto to stop him from delivering us all back into the image he created us in. That is what the fire is for dear sir to burn up and refine us into his image. I am glad for the fire and I ask him to send his fire to me every day so he can burn all that is not like him out of me.

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 4:06 pm

              Patrick, you are wrong to limit: eternal and everlasting are translated from the word aionios. Some time ago I gave you all Romans 1: 20 and Jude 6 where it is inescapably ἀΐδιος aïdios eternal & everlasting G126. The first referring to God’s power and Godhead and the second to fallen angels’ bonds. Both never cease, yet you insist those angels are loosed in judgment. Get consistent, will you, instead of deceitfully twisting meanings according to your own preference? As I told you their chains don’t come off when they are judged. Violent criminals appear in our courts in shackles and you would think God’s court is different? Where’s your sanity?

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2014 at 4:52 pm

              Patrick, you deceitfully use: to gather together in one ALL THINGS INTO CHRIST. The preposition is ἐν en g1722, not εἰς eis g1519, whose object is Christ. As I wrote previously, the verb is to gather together into one company. What is gathered is everything that ALREADY is “in Christ” meaning united to Christ already. There is no placing of anything “into” Christ in the meaning of these words. When you cannot get the meaning of this text correctly, you are disqualified in your understanding of Scripture. The preposition ἐν en g1722, means IN, but the preposition εἰς eis g1519, INTO. Do you know the difference? God’s saints are already IN Christ, but a sinner who repents is brought INTO Christ. The first is a state of BEING, while the second is a state of BECOMING. There is in Ephesians 1: 10 no state of becoming, only being as emphasized by the last two words ἐν αὐτῷ, in Him.

              That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: {KJV}

              “Even in Him” should make the point to you that everything existing at that point of time which is in Christ is what is gathered into one company.

              Please let IN be in and INTO be into, making a distinction. IN means already there, but INTO means to make to become “in.” You are using the wrong preposition, Patrick.

              • Patrick Strickland May 20, 2014 at 5:21 pm

                I will respond to each of your posts later this week when I have a day off from work I am not trying to ignore you and blow you off because you raise some very important issues. I can only show you what I believe but I do not expect you to agree with what I say. You are free to believe what you want what ever it is I will not judge you as anything less than what Jesus judges you and every other human on this earth as. Which is call not those I have cleansed unclean.

                Grace and peace Patrick

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 22, 2014 at 12:30 am

                  Patrick, don’t be tedious and long, old chap, because this is all old hat and we’ve been over this several times previously.

                  • Patrick Strickland May 22, 2014 at 7:07 pm

                    I just noticed this post after I have posted several of my notorious long and tedious posts. Sorry about that.

                    The next post I will be as succinct as I can and I will endeavor to do that from now on.

              • Patrick Strickland May 22, 2014 at 1:44 pm

                Hi Lanny

                If I said into Christ when quoting that verse from memory then I must apologize to you that I was not as exact as you desire. However that does not in any way equate to deceitfulness on my part as you have accused me of. We in our fallen state think we are totally separate from Him and that is why just about every verse with few exceptions; talks about believing ‘in’ Him or even ‘on’ Him, and actually do not use the word ‘en meaning in’ or ‘epi meaning upon’ but uses ‘eis meaning into’ including John 3:16. We really are told to believe INTO Him. That is the only sin the Holy Spirit will convict us of. John 16:9 But from God’s perspective we are in ‘en’ Him. I Cor 1:30 The simple fact is that in this particular case What I may have said does not change the fact that in the fullness of time ALL will be gathered IN Christ just like scripture declares even us who believe we are separate from Him and must believe ‘into’ him; which is exactly what I have claimed the scriptures have declared from the beginning of posting to you on this blog.

                I absolutely believe that blessed truth found in Eph 1:10, and unfortunately most of traditional Christianity does not. This one verse alone should at the very least make everyone question what has been taught by men, and it should put an end to the lies of men since it CANNOT be fulfilled if most are suffering torment in a eternal hell from which they cannot be redeemed from as you advocate. And since they are in eternal torment never to come out then how can ALL be gathered in him? They can’t!

                Psa 49:15 KJV But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

                Psa 49:15 YLT Only, God doth ransom my soul from the hand of Sheol, For He doth receive me. Selah.

                Hos 13:9-14 EWB-CB O Israel, the destruction which thou art suffering is all thine own; for I am thy true help. (10) Where now is thy king? where is any other to save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, “Give me a king and princes?” (11) I gave thee a king in Mine anger, and took him away in My wrath. (12) The perversity of Ephraim is tied up; his sin is reserved. (13) The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is a most foolish son; for he should not linger in the place of the breaking forth of sons. (14) I will redeem with power them out of the hand of Sheol; I will redeem them from death: O death, where are thy pestilence; O grave, where are thy destruction: compassion on them shall be hid from Mine eyes.

                grace and peace Patrick

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2014 at 2:01 am

                  Patrick, you are hopeless misreading the text. The verb means to gather into one company. What is already in Christ is what is gathered. Haven’t you heard or read the expanded explanation for the word “in” as “in the sphere of”? All that is in the sphere of Christ, all that is in the realm of Christ is what is gathered. Nothing is being placed into the sphere of Christ by the gathering. It is akin to saying all that is in the coal hopper cars is dumped or gathered into one huge pile. He might gather together in one pile all things in the coal hopper cars. That doesn’t mean the pile is gathered into the coal hopper cars. That’s the opposite meaning and that’s what you are doing with this text. I just quoted he might gather together in one all things in Christ and substituted in Christ with in the coal hopper cars and added pile to all. See what that makes the sense to be and how it equates to what you try to absurdly make it to mean?

                  • Patrick Strickland May 26, 2014 at 7:31 pm

                    Lanny what will you do with the passage that says that christ is all and in you all col 3:11 Jesus is not only the pile but he is the coal hopper.

                    Scripture declares

                    Joh 7:24 KJV Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

                    Jesus tells us that Joh 5:22 KJV For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

                    Jesus when faced with the the adulterous woman after all her accusers left he said Joh 8:10-11 KJV … Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? (11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

                    Since the fall we judge by appearance. We judge if something is Good or evil. If it is good it gets gets a reward and if evil it gets a curse and punishment. And when we look in scriptures all we see is a god just like us who judges good and evil who gives us great rewards for doing what he said to do and gives us great evil if we do not do what he wants us to do. But all we have done is create a god whose ways are exactly like our ways. God said my ways are not your ways my ways are higher then yours.

                    God nor Jesus judges no man by sight or appearance of good or evil but he judges the world and all it inhabitants in righteousness.

                    Psa 9:8 KJV And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.
                    Psa 96:13 CLV Before Yahweh, for He comes; For He comes to judge the earth; He shall judge the habitance in righteousness, And the peoples in His truth(EMUNAH FAITH AND TRUTH).”
                    Psa 98:9 CLV The mountains, let them be jubilant together before Yahweh. For He comes to judge the earth; He shall judge the habitance in righteousness, And the peoples with equity.”

                    God judges in equity that means when he judges he judges all equally guilty of unbelief and then he has mercy equally upon all Romans 11:32 In adam all die and in Christ all shall be made alive.

                    God has equally judged us all in adam and his disobedience and he then did not stop there but has equally judged us all in Christ and his righteousness.

                    Rom 5:18-19 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made RIGHTEOUS.

                    GOD HAS SPOKEN IN RIGHTEOUSNESS AND SWORN THE EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT IN HIM THEY HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH.

                    This is because God has judged all the inhabitants of the earth as being in righteousness or in christ and he has judged this in faith and truth.

                    1Co 1:30 KJV But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

                    God did not judge that which is between your ears that convinces you that you are only human and wicked as righteous. No he tells to to quit judging ourselves and others that we see as wicked but to start judging them as sons of God elohim. And as long as you continue to accept the persona of the wicked as your own and judge others as wicked then you will remain in darkness and not come to the light.

                    Many of us judge by appearance and say i am of Christ but refuse to think someone else is. if we are in Christ then we must judge that they are in Christ.

                    2Co 10:7 KJV Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ’s, even so are we Christ’s.

                    Act 17:31 CLV forasmuch as He assigns a day in which He is about to be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising Him from among the dead – ”

                    All things gathered in Christ is actually all men ever born.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 12:14 pm

                      Patrick, if all men “ever born” are”in Christ” then why is it necessary to gather them again in Christ. What’s gathered in Christ according to your useage was not in Christ before it was gathered. Only after the gathering is it in Christ. Can’t you see your concepts makes nonsense of your interpretation? What were they gathered out from? Whatever they were gathered from was not in Christ. That leaves a whole world without Christ from which what is in Christ is gathered. The ungathered must of necessity be the majority of humanity that perish forever in eternal torment (everlasting torment).

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 4:27 pm

                      Patrick, if “Jesus is not only the pile but he is the coal hopper” you still make nonsense because now you gather in Christ everything that is in Christ.

                      You haven’t a clue of what you are saying and you also don’t know how to be brief.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 27, 2014 at 7:47 pm

                      Because when Adam fell we were all included in him and after the flesh as we judge between good and evil we became separate in our mind from the life of the spirit. As long as we continue to judge what is good and what is evil we will remain separate in our minds living from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But the truth is God created mankind in his image. In Adam we all die but in Christ we all live and are righteous.

                      We are asleep to who we really are in him if we only live by the flesh. Scripture says awake to righteousness…I Cor.15:34. We were never separated from him but in our fallen minds.

                      Lanny there are none who are going to be ungathered. ALL are going to be gathered into one. When Christ dird for all all died.

                    • Stephen Helbig May 27, 2014 at 11:17 pm

                      What Patrick Strickland says in his comment on May 26, 2014 @ 7:31 pm is a sweet song to the ear. Actually while this comment was being submitted @ 7:31 pm ~ I was with family and friends celebrating and just finishing up a wonderful day (my 61st birthday celebration) and partaking in a superb evening meal, and this comment of Patrick’s ~ is truly a great desert to that fine day. ~ Thanks Patrick

                      p.s. ~ We must judge as Jesus has judged ~ IN RIGHTEOUSNESS ~ We are (I AM) the righteousness of God, IN CHRIST JESUS

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2014 at 11:44 pm

                      Stephen, I pity you and Patrick because you both can’t get Ephesians 1: 10 correctly because of the verb and its object.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 4:57 pm

                      Lanny dear sir you are entitled to believe what ever you want.

                      For me I will judge you and everyone else in this world as in righteousness, and Sons of God, and I will love you. i WILL NO LONGER ACCEPT THE PERSONA OF THE WICKED AS YOUR TRUE SELF OR THE TRUE SELF OF ANYONE INCLUDING MYSELF. I will not curse you or condemn you for anything you believe after the judgment of good or evil that you make. I will continue to pray the father’s will for everyone that they will all be saved and come to the knowledge of his truth.

                      However I will warn you that Jesus did say

                      Mat 7:1-5 KJV Judge not, that ye be not judged. (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

                      jESUS WAS SAYING You are just as guilty of the judgment you make as what you are judging others for, because you are doing the very same thing that you are judging in them. So if you are judging anyone as outside of Christ then know that you are also guilty of the very same thing and you are outside of Christ.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 28, 2014 at 4:58 pm

                      Thanks Stephen

                      I am glad that you enjoyed you birthday present. Again Happy birthday buddy may God richly bless you and all of your family.

                    • Stephen Helbig May 28, 2014 at 10:07 pm

                      Lanny ~ Eph. 1:10 ~ “ In the (1)economy of the fullness of time, everything culminates in Christ; all that is in heaven and all that is on earth is reconciled in him.” (Mirror Bible) ~ (The word, (1)oikonomia, translates as administration.)

                      Eph. 1:9 “He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him (10)with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him” — NASB

                      “All human history shall be consummated in Christ, everything that exists in heaven or earth shall find its perfection and fulfillment in him.” — Phillips.

                      “All that is in heaven, all that is on earth, summed up in him!” — Knox

                      p.s. ~ Strongs #46 anakephalaíomai (from 303 /aná, “up,” intensifying 2775 /kephalaióō, “bring to a head, recapitulate”) – properly, head-up, summing up all the parts as a comprehensive (organized) whole.

                      p.s.s. ~ Ephesians 1:10 God is said ἀνακεφαλαιώσασθαι τά πάντα ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ, to bring together again for himself (note the middle) all things and beings (hitherto disunited by sin) into one combined state of fellowship in Christ, the universal bond (cf. Meyer or Ellicott on Ephesians, the passage cited);

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 11:59 am

                      For me I will judge you and everyone else in this world as in righteousness, and Sons of God, says Patrick Strickland
                      May 28, 2014 at 4:57 pm displaying his foul spirit since it will not be subject to God’s perfect literal Holy Bible.

                      Open your eyes, man. >90% burn in hell and you think they are righteous sons of god? What kind of brain do you have in your head? It is not functioning.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 29, 2014 at 12:07 pm

                      Stephen Helbig May 28, 2014 at 10:07 pm makes a try at Ephesians 1: 10 but still misses the mark {he sins} refusing the reality that >90% burn in hell for eternity. Romans 9: 22 remains in the Bible.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 30, 2014 at 5:02 pm

                      Lanny God salts all men with fire. The old man the tare the son of perdition the goat is not righteous and I never judged that false lie as righteous, nor will I ever say the wicked in every man is righteous. It is obvious that you do not understand what I am really saying.

                      That old man of sin the son of perdition is destroyed in the brightness of his appearing in his saints when he come to be glorified in his temple. the tare is burned, the tare is destroyed .

                      But in each of us the real man the hidden man of the heart, the wheat, the new man is righteous.

                      I do not accept the the wicked in every man including most of all in myself as being the real person, or in my case the real me. God said… not me; that ye are gods and ALL of you are sons of the most high that is reality. and I agree with what he said we truly are what he said we are. Even Jesus accepted that fact. but as long as you accept that wicked old man as the real you then you shall remain in darkness and will think you know but you will not really know anything as you ought. You will be out of course. I say that because psa 82 declares that.

                      Sorry but God did not give me a spirit of fear but of love…so if you don’t mind you can’t scare me into serving God by loudly repeating over and over again that 90% or more are going to burn in eternal torment forever. That is not love and has absolutely nothing to do with love! That is nothing but a gospel of fear. I grew out of that attitude and gospel a long time ago. I serve God out of love and not out of fear. I love him, and everyone i see. Thank you for your opinion but I will stick with Perfect love that casts out all fear and the life of Christ in me. That way I don’t have to live in the bondage of torment which fear causes.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 31, 2014 at 2:14 am

                      Patrick, you are wise in your own conceit. You’re disqualified.

                    • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 5:15 pm

                      How can I be wise in my own conceits if I recognize that my mind cannot understand what is written in the scripture without the annointing that is in me actually teaching me the truth?

                      How can I be wise in my own imagination when I have the mind of Christ doing the thinking in me and I am allowing that mind to run the show?

                      I lost my mind a long time ago and replaced it with His mind.

                      Every time that I recognize that my old mind has shown up I send it back to the cross. where it belongs.

                      1Co 2:12-16 KJV Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

                      Php 2:5-8 KJV Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

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