A Little Piece of Heaven

A Little Piece of Heaven

god of bible condones baby killing

Her sweet little face overwhelmed me. “Doesn’t she seem like a miracle?” I asked my daughter.

“She is a miracle. How can anyone have a baby and not believe in God?”

I understood what she was saying, but I also understand that people can and do have babies all the time, without giving a second thought to whether God had anything to do with it.

I suspect that part of the reason for spiritual apathy is that people read the Bible, with its bizarre, frightening, and sometimes barbaric stories; they hear Christians insisting that we should believe that every event and concept within its pages is true, word for word; and they conclude that attributing something as awe-inspiring as a newborn baby to such an angry, cruel god is nonsense.

To anyone who would claim that every word describing the character or intentions of God in scripture ought to be taken as a true representation of Who God is and what God does, please consider the following:

The god kills children/babies for the sins of their parents.

Yes, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even their beloved children. (Hosea 9:16)

…because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord and given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child that is born to you shall surely die… And the Lord struck the child that Uriah’s widow bore to David, and he was very sick… And on the seventh day the child died. (2 Samuel 12:13-15, 18)

The god punishes rebellion by dashing infants to pieces and ripping open the bellies of pregnant women.

Samaria shall bear her guilt and become desolate, for she rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword, their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their pregnant women shall be ripped up. (Hosea 13:16)

The god punishes the enemies of Israel by commanding mass murder, including nursing infants.

Thus says the Lord of hosts, I have considered and will punish what Amalek did to Israel… Now go and smite Amalek and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.

Can you imagine Jesus approving of any of this?

When the disciples were not permitting children to approach Jesus, He said, “Leave the children alone! Allow the little ones to come to Me, and do not forbid or restrain or hinder them, for of such [as these] is the kingdom of heaven composed.”

What do you think Jesus would have said to the disciples if they were murdering the children?

Jesus actually draws a direct correlation between little ones and not only Himself, but the Father Who sent Him:

“Whoever welcomes this little child in my name welcomes me; and whoever welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.”

Think about it. If Jesus only says and does what the One who sent Him says and does, and if the character of God does not change, how can the god described by Old Testament writers be an accurate representation of God?

Perhaps the people who utterly reject God are actually rejecting the god presented to them by the writers. And maybe they are actually seeing the Kingdom of God a little bit clearer than those who would prefer to justify the bizarro-god in order to preserve the so-called infallibility of their precious book.

 

 

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas June 1, 2014 at 6:00 am

    I agree with what you say about people being turned off by texts that portray God as vengeful, angry, and murderous. And I agree that the texts you cite in this blog – texts which portray God as being violent, ordering the killing of Israel’s enemies – ought not to be interpreted as accounts of what God did or commanded but rather as retellings of Israel’s history that reflect ideology – i.e., reinterpretations that make human acts into divine commands, that claim that what is done to further Israel’s own interests is God’s will. I am inclined not to interpret the flood narrative as being ideology, even though it portrays God wiping out a majority. I may be wrong about this, though. I do think, as I’ve said in previous posts, that the story of Noah has some important things to say about God’s engagement with the human condition and God’s decision in the end to embrace the creation, guaranteeing its future; and I have trouble with any interpretations of the story that focus only on the judgment aspect and not on these others aspects. Regarding the 2 Samuel 12 text, it assumes that all events come ultimately from God’s hand and that everything that happens to us can be used by God for good. I wouldn’t put this text in the same category as the others you cite here, though I agree that by picturing God as taking the life of a child as a punishment for the sins of the parent, it is problematic and ought not to be read as a description of what God did.

    Congratulations on the birth of your grandchild! What a precious gift – and yes, I agree, evidence for those who see with eyes of faith of the existence and nature of a totally good, loving, and awesome God. And what a lovely baby your little Claire is!

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2014 at 9:09 pm

      Mary, Mary, Mary, “history that reflects ideology” is still history nonetheless, meaning it really happened, accounts of what God did, accounts of what God REALLY did do, it is real history.

      Do you really exist, Mary, or are you just an ideology without any physical substance?

      • Mary Vanderplas June 6, 2014 at 5:33 am

        History of Israel’s acts of violence retold to make the violent acts a carrying out of God’s commands is not accurate history – it is self-serving ideology.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 7, 2014 at 4:20 am

          So Mary redefines history the way she needs it to justify her view. In what dictionary do you find that meaning?

          Whatever happened to Israel’s history as “holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” {2 Peter 1: 21}? How can that be self-serving ideology?

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 7, 2014 at 4:22 am

            How can that be self-serving ideology and inaccurate history?

            • Mary Vanderplas June 8, 2014 at 7:01 am

              The God who commanded “You shall not murder” cannot be a God who commands “You shall commit genocide.” Texts that have God commanding violence against Israel’s enemies are retellings of what happened in such a way that what Israel did to further its own interests is given divine sanction. They reflect self-serving ideology and are not accurate accounts of history, but reinterpretations that falsely portray God as sanctioning the genocide.

              • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 12:42 am

                Mary, is war murder? Are all American soldiers who have killed an enemy combatant considered murderers or are they praised as GOOD warriors? Is there such a thing as good killing? Is it morally correct to put murderers to death? What should we do to all our returning soldiers who have killed somebodies on the battlefield? If all our soldiers knew in advance what you’d do to them when they come home would they fight for our country?

                The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. {Exodus 15: 3} The first part was on the back of my VW bettle bug in 2″ high letters for all to easily see during the latter part of the Viet Nam war protest era. Mary, you’re not much of a patriot if you don’t believing in killing the enemy, even to extermination.

                Do you know one of the Ten Commandments is to have no other gods, but Jehovah Who is Jealous? Israel was to exterminate their enemies so that Israel would not learn to serve their enemy’s gods which were just dumb idols without any power to save. When God gave the order to exterminate them, not a single one of them was one of God’s Elect.

                Is God a murderer? What individuals in the Bible did God kill?

                • Mary Vanderplas June 10, 2014 at 5:30 am

                  This isn’t about America going to war to defend the cause of freedom. It’s about whether God commanded Israel to kill everyone who got in their way. It’s about whether stories that portray God as vengeful and murderous are authentic revelations of who God is and what God does. The answer to that question is no.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2014 at 8:36 pm

                    Then, Mary, they didn’t commit genocide, so killing their enemies is obedience to God.

                    • Mary Vanderplas June 13, 2014 at 5:06 am

                      To use Old Testament portrayals of a violent God commanding destruction of enemies to justify war and the killing of enemies is wrong. The Old Testament portrayals of God sanctioning war and killing are not true pictures of who God is and what God does. The troubling texts that picture God in this way need to be interpreted rightly – in terms of the cultural context and in terms of ideology that sought to justify Israel’s actions by giving them a religious purpose and equating them with the divine will.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 12:24 pm

                      Mary, Jesus treads out the winepress of the wrath of God and in the Final Battle God consumes the rebel hosts of men with fire from His mouth.

                      And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and MAKE WAR. {Revelation 19: 11}

                      God wages physical war against physical human beings whom He had created. That’s in the New Testament of the Holy Bible.

  • Sean Dean June 1, 2014 at 12:28 pm

    God is a great travel agent…… He must summer in Italy……. 😉

  • Dennis Goodman June 1, 2014 at 1:18 pm

    Congratulations!

  • Patrick Strickland June 1, 2014 at 4:01 pm

    Amen Jesus reveals to all of us the true heart of the Father because he is the express image of God. (Heb 1:3) He absolutely hated the intolerance and blindness that religious minded men hold unto for all those who don’t believe the same way that they do. But he always has been and always will Be Love.

    That Little Girl is a beautiful baby and I know she is going to be spoiled rotten by you Enjoy every moment doing that Alice

    • admin June 5, 2014 at 11:34 pm

      yes, spoiled rotten 🙂

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2014 at 12:23 am

        Rotten is perished in hell.

        The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {Psalm 58: 3}

        See “from the womb” and “as soon as they be born” ???
        From the moment of conception in the womb babies are WICKED and the devil’s children. They prove it as soon as they are born. They are BAD, BAD, BAD and already ripe for hell-fire eternal torment.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 1, 2014 at 4:02 pm

    Mary/Alice, since you don’t take those Scriptures plumb literal, neither can you take Jesus death on the cross plumb literal. Salvation isn’t literal, then, and you’re lost in your sins: follow the 1 Corinthians 15 argument if Christ didn’t raise from the dead. You have a meaningless god and bible.

    You can’t have a literal reconciliation of all things to God without having God literally doing the stuff He says He does. Your http://www.whatgoddoes.com is a joke if God isn’t literal. WAKE UP.

    • admin June 5, 2014 at 11:33 pm

      Please explain how you get from this -> “since you don’t take those Scriptures plumb literal” to this -> “neither can you take Jesus death on the cross plumb literal”

      Please explain how in order for one to believe Jesus died on the cross one must also interpret all scripture in a literal fashion. That makes no sense to me.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2014 at 12:16 am

        Alice, you even wrote that Jesus spoke of Noah and the flood, but you will not admit that He spoke plumb literal about it. Since you think He did not, then nothing He spoke of salvation is literal either. Perhaps even Jesus is not literal Himself and the whole Bible is an allegory divorced from reality and written by men.

        You can’t have a literal reconciliation of all things to God without having God literally doing the stuff He says He does.

    • Mary Vanderplas June 7, 2014 at 6:28 am

      Before Enlightenment rationality distorted the meaning, the term “literal” and the “literal sense” of scripture meant simply taking a text as it is, reading it for what it says about the world and about God without appealing to subject matter outside the text for its interpretation. Since the Enlightenment, the term has been taken to mean historically factual – a distortion of its original meaning. Not everything in the Bible is historical narrative – a detailed account of what actually happened. To interpret these texts as history – or, as you put it, to “take those Scriptures plumb literal” – is to misinterpret them.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 8, 2014 at 2:08 am

        Mary, literalists DO recognize nonliteral speech in the Bible as I’ve written in the past, but both the seven day creation and the flood have always been taken by the Hebrew populace at large as literal history, including Jesus Christ Himself and His disciples. You cannot prove your fanciful “inaccurate history that reflects ideology” is even viable. Your suggestion is even demonic and straight from the pit of hell, since it is like saying Satan’s words: did God really say ….? You are referencing Biblical records by “holy men of God who spoke (and wrote) as they were moved by the Holy Ghost” {2 Peter 1: 21} making the records the writing of God’s Holy Spirit Whom you suggest was inaccurate for ideologically purposes. You slander the Holy Spirit and that’s blasphemy. What’s the unpardonable sin, Mary? You’re impossible to save from the everlasting Lake of Fire?

        • Mary Vanderplas June 9, 2014 at 5:18 am

          Neither the creation story nor the flood story is “literal history” – a historically descriptive account of what happened. Both reflect the utilization of older materials, and both are proclamations that voice Israel’s faith. They are theological affirmations, not descriptive reporting. (I didn’t make the claim that the flood narrative is ideology, but that it is theological affirmation, not historical narrative.) One doesn’t have to believe that these stories are history in order to believe that they reveal truth about God and his world.

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 10:53 pm

            Mary, it is far from the truth that children would believe what you do. They know the seven days were just like our 24/7 week and Noah had literal animals on the ark plus everybody else literally died. You are very far from becoming as a little child in order to believe in the Savour God. Children will go into the kingdom before you while you’ll be left standing outside naked and ashamed to be cast into the Lake of Fire for everlasting torment. Do I need to list the quote or do you remember the words?

            • Mary Vanderplas June 10, 2014 at 5:31 am

              Childlike faith means trusting in God and depending on him; it does not mean embracing a simplistic understanding of who he is and what he does or embracing biblical literalism. The Bible wasn’t written for seven-year-olds so it’s understandable that they might think in terms of literalism (unless otherwise instructed by adults who know better). This doesn’t mean that their understanding is accurate.

              • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2014 at 11:11 pm

                Mary, But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. {2 Corinthians 11: 3} What are you saying about simplistic understanding?

                • Mary Vanderplas June 13, 2014 at 5:06 am

                  This text has nothing to do with embracing a simplistic, misguided understanding of who God is and what he does. It’s about being wholly devoted to Christ and not being led astray by those who preached a different gospel than the gospel Paul preached and who evidently thought of themselves as being superior. Once again, you distort the meaning of the text in an effort to make it say what you need it to say.

                • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 12:30 pm

                  Mary, the text says when you make things as complex as you and Alice do, you no longer have faith and have fallen prey to Satan and are lost and perishing in your prideful self-proclaimed wisdom.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2014 at 8:44 pm

    Remember last Thanksgiving I let my church offer the use of my Utah home rent free to a recovering alcoholic so she could get on her feet, save money, and return to that Illinois church recovery ministry as a ministry worker? My neighbors feed her alcoholism and now she so much hates my church for trying to keep her sober that she’s filing criminal charges against me and six others. My neighbors had no compassion for her handicap, but instead preyed on it so they could free her to be sexually exploited for their pleasure and her destruction as a Christian.

    You don’t think God HATES neighbors like that?

    You don’t think God HATES Christians that love to fornicate {like drunk Zoe}? Read the Revelation 2: 21 & 23

    I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
    I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: ….

    Have you read about the Corinthian churchman who was sexually involved with his step-mom? 1 Corinthians 5: 5

    To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Satan destroys peoples’ bodies, so this means physical death. I am praying God kills both her sons right in front of her very eyes and then kills her.

    God’s purpose in killing their children is found in verse 23
    all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts

    Churchmen don’t fear God any more because all you want them to know is God is love. Ananias and Sapphira died instantly in Acts 5 for lying to the Holy Spirit and fear came on all the churches for it. That’s healthy fear that inspires holiness without which no man shall see the Lord {Hebrews 12: 14}.

    • admin June 5, 2014 at 10:07 pm

      You write, “I am praying God kills both her sons right in front of her very eyes and then kills her.” Jesus prayed, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do.” See the difference?

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2014 at 12:02 am

        Alice, what’s the matter with the Revelation 2: 21 & 23?

        It is in the NEW Testament portion of the Bible. You, being a preterist, aught to know it came true around 70AD and following.

        Do YOU see the difference? THE CONTEXT. Luke 23: 34 is far different folks from Revelation 2: 21 & 23 and the latter involves church folks who need to be killed by God.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2014 at 12:02 am

    Alice, without the infallibility of our precious Bible you have no ABSOLUTE knowledge of God, but are left guessing what might be truth. As I said you manufacture your own god instead of believing what He has revealed Himself to be in the Bible which your unenlightened self is incapable of justifying.

    You maliciously ask, how can the god described by Old Testament writers be an accurate representation of God? You use the lower case “g” to imply the God of the O. T. is not God and you by the same device imply the O.T. writers were mere fallible men rather than infallibly God-breathed inspired holy men of God responding to God’s Holy Spirit.

    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. {2 Peter 1: 21}

    Since in your opinion the O.T. and the N.T. portray two different gods, why do you choose to believe the one above the other? How do you know the most ancient is not the most accurate? Why is the more modern {N.T.} not a perversion of the old? You assume the N.T. offers a more accurate representation of God than the O.T. does, but you haven’t considered that the O.T. offers a more accurate representation of God than the N.T. does. Why not? Haven’t you argued the ancient church fathers had better theology than today’s thinkers and today’s thinkers are corrupted? Haven’t you popularly thought reformed theology is better than dispensational theology because the former is older than the latter? Why then don’t you stick with the original being better than the update?

    Why don’t you consider reading the Epistle to the Hebrews which discusses the testaments as one better than the other? Is there ever a hint that the God of the O.T. is not the God of the N.T. or that He is inaccurately portrayed in the O.T.?

    He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. {Hebrews 10: 28 – 31}

    He is a vengeful God, dear Alice.

    • admin June 5, 2014 at 10:02 pm

      You write, “Since in your opinion the O.T. and the N.T. portray two different gods, why do you choose to believe the one above the other?”
      I don’t utterly reject everything about God in the O.T., just the stuff that blatantly contradicts Who Jesus Christ demonstrated God to be.

      You write, “How do you know the most ancient is not the most accurate?”
      Because the ancient one has passed through several filters – oral tradition, the first writings, the rewritings, etc.

      You write, “Why is the more modern {N.T.} not a perversion of the old?”
      That’s like saying the covenant based on grace is a perversion of the covenant based on law.

      You write, “You assume the N.T. offers a more accurate representation of God than the O.T. does, but you haven’t considered that the O.T. offers a more accurate representation of God than the N.T. does. Why not?”
      Because if the O.T. god is more accurate, then Jesus was a liar. Since Jesus died and rose again, I choose to believe He is Lord. As Lord, He does not lie about the Father or present an inaccurate image of the Father.

      You write, “Haven’t you argued the ancient church fathers had better theology than today’s thinkers and today’s thinkers are corrupted? Haven’t you popularly thought reformed theology is better than dispensational theology because the former is older than the latter? Why then don’t you stick with the original being better than the update?”
      Picture a stone thrown into a pond. The ripples move out in all directions. So it is with Christ. He challenged the orthodox interpretations of the O.T., and I am certain that if He were to be a guest speaker at an Evangelical conference, He would challenge the orthodox interpretations of the N.T. as well. It isn’t as much about older/better & newer/worse as it is about timeless truths under layers of corruption.

      You write, “Why don’t you consider reading the Epistle to the Hebrews which discusses the testaments as one better than the other? Is there ever a hint that the God of the O.T. is not the God of the N.T. or that He is inaccurately portrayed in the O.T.?”
      Off the top of my head, no, I don’t recall reading anything in Hebrews about inaccurate portrayal of God in the O.T. That’s not what that book is about. Hebrews was written to an audience who was having a hard time with the idea that if Jesus was the Messiah, He didn’t come as a military leader to destroy all their enemies. I believe their expectations of the Messiah were based on the inaccurate portrayal of God in the O.T., and that is why they were totally thrown off by Jesus Christ, Who did not do as the god of the O.T. did.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2014 at 11:57 pm

    Mary on June 8, 2014 at 7:01 am The God who commanded “You shall not murder” cannot be a God who commands “You shall commit genocide.” Texts that have God commanding violence against Israel’s enemies are retellings of what happened in such a way that what Israel did to further its own interests is given divine sanction. They reflect self-serving ideology and are not accurate accounts of history, but reinterpretations that falsely portray God as sanctioning the genocide.

    Who is the one giving divine sanction? You must mean a fallible human writer, because you continue to claim he justifies Israel’s self-interests by falsely portraying God as sanctioning the genocide. So now you also are opposed to God giving the Israelites the land He promised to Abram. You don’t see it as God’s promise, but rather as Israel’s self-interest. You then make God’s promises a fabrication of Israel’s self-interest instead of real fact. God promised Israel through Joshua their promised land would be furnished with houses, vineyards, and crops in the fields so that they could immediately occupy it in comfort and wealth. That required exterminating the former occupants, not co-existence. God didn’t say genocide nor self-interest, but exterminate. You resort to charged words while God was just matter-of-fact about it charging them that they don’t get tempted to worship and serve idols. Do you have a better plan than God’s plan? Are you smarter than Him? You have a better way than exterminating every man, woman, and child to prevent idolatry? If you deport them, they’ll only come back fighting again and Israel will never have peace.

    Look, Mary, the promised land originally belonged to other peoples than Israel, but God, having complaints against them for their sins, in judgment exterminated them just as He did to Sodom and Gomorrah. Your problem is instead of God using fire and brimstone, He used the armies of Israel. God knew fire and brimstone would ruin the land for further occupation and He needed to nearly immediately move His chosen people into a workable dwelling place. God is justified in commanding the slaying of every man, woman, and child and sending them to everlasting torment. You make for yourself all kinds of problems because you want a god of love who doesn’t everlastingly torment His enemies. You wrote your first line: The God who commanded “You shall not murder” cannot be a God who commands “You shall commit genocide.” You are unable to reconcile these two, because you will not distinguish war from murder. You resist God.

    • Mary Vanderplas June 11, 2014 at 5:26 am

      Commanding the destruction of human beings is genocide, a violation of God’s commandment against murdering. And the commandment against murdering is really about respecting and protecting human life; it is not just a prohibition against murdering another human being. Old Testament portrayals of God commanding violence do not reveal God’s true character. They need to be interpreted for what they are: reinterpretations that reflect ancient, culturally conditioned assumptions about God being a warrior as well as efforts to justify Israel’s violent acts as being God’s will for the purpose of maintaining Israel’s religious purity. They are ideology that serves Israel’s self-interest, not authentic revelations of God’s character and his will for humankind – which includes the protection of life.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 13, 2014 at 3:30 am

        Mary, I asked you: is war murder June 9, 2014 at 12:42 am and now I see you evaded my direct question because I pressed today’s application in what your answer practically means. You would indict our soldiers as murderers, wouldn’t you, if they had killed any enemy combatants? Don’t you see how self-evidently that proves your foolishness regarding genocide?

        Was God respecting and protecting human life when He rained fire and brimstone on Sodom and Gomorrah killing everybody? Oh, I forgot your reinterpretations remove that story from real life refusing to acknowledge those twin cities actually existed, since now they do not exist as living cities, yet only as destroyed ones mentioned by Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, Zephaniah, the Lord Jesus Christ, (Matthew, Mark, Luke,) John, Peter, and Jude. I think war, human history, and twelve witnesses, one being God the Son, put your understanding to shame. Since Sodom and Gomorrah are realities, so is God’s command to exterminate His enemies of Israel. Your reinterpretations are evil myths, Mary.

        In killing every man, woman, child, and baby in Sodom and Gomorrah, God was respecting and protecting FUTURE human life from the great horrible evil of homosexuality. God committed genocide on those twin cities to protect the human race while exterminating homosexuality in that immediate region sending them into everlasting torment in hell to be followed in the Lake of Fire.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 15, 2014 at 5:01 pm

          Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

          WHO made an example of them, Mary, God or the “Writer?” Who’s the Writer, Mary, God, or a Jew of Israel or a Jew of the Church?

          • Patrick Strickland June 16, 2014 at 5:59 pm

            And scripture clearly states that God will restore them that is what true love does. Love never fails because love never gives up but will continually reach out and reach out till love accomplishs what it intended to do from the beginning the salvation of all men.

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 1:29 pm

              Patrick, you are still misreading your text since their FORMER state is their homosexual CORRUPTION. God will not undo what He has done. God’s saints will forever see the nail prints in Jesus hands and feet in the future eternal estate.

              • Patrick Strickland June 20, 2014 at 3:45 pm

                Hi Lanny
                Did you not know that Jesus is the Lamb of God who took the sins of the world away at the cross two thousand years ago? John 1:29 And that we are not allowed to call what He has cleansed unclean? Acts 10:14-28 Since Jesus took away SIN OF THE WORLD how can ANYONE be held accountable for sins that no longer exist? They can’t…even scriptures tell us that God is not holding anyone accountable for sins.
                2Co 5:14-21 CLV For the love of Christ is constraining us, judging this, that, IF ONE DIED FOR THE SAKE OF ALL, CONSEQUENTLY ALL DIED.” (15) And He died for the sake of all that those who are living should by no means still be living to themselves, but to the One dying and being roused for their sakes.” (16) So that we, from now on, are acquainted with no one according to flesh. Yet even if we have known Christ according to flesh, nevertheless now we know Him so no longer.” (17) So that, if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: the primitive passed by. Lo! there has come new!” (18) Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation, (19) how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, NOT RECKONING THEIR OFFENSES TO THEM, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.” (20) For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ’s sake, “Be conciliated to God!” (21) For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him.”
                2Co 5:19 WNT We are to tell how God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging men’s transgressions to their account, and that He has entrusted to us the Message of this reconciliation.
                HOWEVER HE WILL TRY ALL MEN’S WORKS BY FIRE. He will burn the tares, the wood, hay, stubble, even the thorns. Do you have any idea what the thorns are?
                Jesus clearly tells us what the thorns are:
                Luk 8:14 KJV And that which fell among thorns ARE THEY, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

                The thorns are nothing less then the cares riches and pleasures of this life and they will not allow the fruit of the spirit of love to come to full maturity. The word cares has a very enlightening definition when traced back: it is the noun merimna

                – Definition:
                1. care, anxiety
                Origin: from G3307 (through the idea of distraction)

                The verb form is where we find the true understanding of care: merizo

                – Definition:
                1. to divide
                a. to separate into parts, cut into pieces
                1. to divide into parties, i.e. be split into factions
                b. to distribute
                1. a thing among people
                2. bestow, impart
                – Origin: from G3313
                – TDNT entry: None
                – Part(s) of speech: Verb

                – Strong’s: From G3313; to part that is (literally) to apportion bestow share or (figuratively) to disunite differ: – deal be difference between distribute divide give part.

                Basically the cares of this world are all the labels we put on everything in order to separate ourselves from others. We tend to love all those who wear the same labels we do, and we hate those who wear the labels we find evil. Our ability to judge good and evil has resulted in thorns growing up in our minds. Our minds have an insatiable desire to label everything. But true love does not care about labels at all but only wants to love itself in no matter what form it may reside in. It is completely impossible for the fruit of the spirit to ripen to full maturity if all you do is live by the labels you place upon yourself and others.

                You do remember our conversations about the froward? Where the froward are perverse, distorted, crooked, hence false, and their view of God is similarly distorted. God will show himself to the froward as being torturous. Scriptures declare that in the way of the froward grows thorns and briars.

                God does not care about the label homosexual or any other label we may apply to ourselves and others. Jesus wore a crown of thorns and took all that mess to the cross two thousand years ago. When God restores Sodom he is giving them the opportunity to be reconciled to him…since he has already reconciled all men to himself. All sin is gone and already judged in christ at the cross. All thorns that separate us have been judged at the cross. God does not see sin or any thorns anymore. Unfortunately the froward still do because they don’t believe.

                It is time to be reconciled to God and quit judging others by labeling them And God will show himself pure unto those who are pure. Which in truth is everyone.

                Religion teaches men how to hate others in the name of love, because they teach us how to continue to label everything. Anyone who fits our label is saved and anyone who does not goes to hell forever. Now Lanny no matter how many men you and your religion put in hell…God will send someone like me to get them all out because of what Jesus did do at the cross.

                Scripture is clear Sodom is going to be restored Religion does not like that fact because it puts a hole in their theology which is not God’s true theology.

                • Lanny A. Eichert June 21, 2014 at 10:14 am

                  Patrick, Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. {John 8: 21 & 24} I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

                  Sins are not all gone. Why do you oppose yourself by supposing the fire and brimstone of the Lake of Fire purges sins? You contradict yourself.

                  Anybody who physically dies without confessing Christ carries their sins with them to hell and later the Lake of Fire. Jesus said so as quoted above. They continue to sin those same habitual sins in their hearts and minds without a physical body.

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 19, 2014 at 2:18 pm

              Patrick, look at Deuteronomy 29: 14 – 29 how Sodom and Gomorrha {verse 23} are used in the text.

              Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 1: 7}

              Look at all the other uses of Sodom and Gomorrha in the Holy Bible and see that they are used as figures, types, examples to speak of total destruction that shall never be rebuilt and everlasting torment.

              What restoration or resurrection you might imagine is that to their former wickedness in which they go into final judgment and are condemned to everlasting torment. That’s the resurrection of the wicked dead which does NOT change their moral condition: they are raised in their wickedness. Resurrection cannot change them from wicked to righteous: only regeneration during this mortality can do that. You are resurrected righteous if you died righteous or wicked if you died wicked. You know that, so why are you again singing resurrection is regeneration, when you know itis not?

              Jesus said: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. {John 5: 29} TWO distinctly different resurrections; one does NOT make the other and they are FINAL estates.

              • Patrick Strickland June 20, 2014 at 3:49 pm

                we will have to disagree since God has sworn by his name making it unchangeable and immutable that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in him they have righteousness and strength. That one fact alone alone makes eternal torment completely impossible.

                • Patrick Strickland June 20, 2014 at 3:51 pm

                  But that one fact does make aionias correction or correction that pertains to an age possible. Correction has a goal of restoring man to their former estate in Christ before the fall occurred.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert June 21, 2014 at 10:01 am

                    Patrick, their former estate still remains their homosexuality which God judged by fire and brimstone. Besides Jude 7 being the lastest revelation on the subject SETS THEM FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

                    So you want them restored by your god to their homosexual wickedness to have it purged away by your aionias fire which burns out when there is no more wickedness to consume? Far fetched, to say the least !

                    • Patrick Strickland June 23, 2014 at 5:03 pm

                      Why is it so hard for you to not see that love takes full responsibility for all he created and he truly does no harm and if it appears that he has then he will fix any harm he appears to have done. Since God is love and love does no harm to man

                      Romans 13:10 (CEV) No one who loves others will harm them. So love is all that the Law demands.

                      So how can he create the greatest harm ever… the eternal torment of any man…For true love that would be absolutely impossible. the gospel you proclaim is not glad tidings of great joy to all men but it is absolutely great terror and fer for all men saved and unsaved alike.

                      By telling us that they will be restored to their former estate then we can know how long eternal fire truly lasts for a time a long time but not forever without end.

                      Eternal torment is as you would say “Far fetched, to say the least.

                • Lanny A. Eichert June 21, 2014 at 9:49 am

                  Patrick, the context of all three verses involves saints not sinners thus proving you wrongly use these texts. Check it out.

                  • Patrick Strickland June 23, 2014 at 4:48 pm

                    How can anyone still be labeled a sinner if Jesus truly took away the sins of the world and cleansed that which was unclean and specifically commands us not to call that which he has cleansed unclean? Have you not considered that you are breaking his commandment by insisting that thay are still sinners homosexuals when he has clearly declared that he has cleansed them because of what Jesus did at the cross?

                    The label sinner is nothing but a thorn that chokes out who you really are in him, and who everyone else in this world really are from coming to full maturity… Love. In God’s eyes the label sinner and any other label you can think of does not exist anymore.

                    What men have taught you has blinded you to the truth.

                    What sin is anyone going to burn in hell forever for? if anyone burns in hell forever then Jesus really did not take away the sins of the world.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2014 at 7:54 pm

                      Patrick, James in his Epistle calls his readers “sinners” in 4: 8 and that’s thirty years after the Cross. Paul in his first epistle to Timothy instructs that the Law is still in place for those called sinners. Jude prophesies the Lord is still coming to execute judgment on the ungodly whom he is calling sinners.

                      What do you think that people are only called sinners before the Cross which God had ordained before the creation? Oh, how obvious are your errors, poor Patrick (PP) !!! James, Paul, and Jude are still calling unbelievers “sinners” long after Jesus ascended to heaven to sit on God’s right hand. It is all right there in God’s Holy Bible. All I did was search the word “sinners” and found ten uses of the term in the Epistles. None of the New Testament writers ever heard of your perverted doctrine which makes you a liar.

                      But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. {Revelation 21: 8}

                    • Patrick Strickland June 28, 2014 at 3:28 pm

                      Lanny I am not surprised in the least that you can find the word sinner in the new testament. Just because you can find the “label” sinner or any other label you may judge others by does not mean that God has not already taken the sin, the sinner, thorns…the cares of this world-our ability to judge, sickness, disease, griefs, sorrows and everything that separates all of us from him to the cross already.

                      Let us do a quick review…
                      Pro 22:5 KJV Thorns and snares are in the way of the froward: he that doth keep his soul shall be far from them.

                      Psa 18:26 KJV With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward (torturous) .

                      Tit 1:15 KJV Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

                      Mens minds are defiled by the judgments they keep and the labels they put upon themselves and others. Jesus told us to judge not…we can’t get the splinter out of someone else’s eye before we get the beam out of our own eye.

                      Mat 7:1-5 KJV Judge not, that ye be not judged. (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

                      Labels are nothing but judgments. When we label ourselves righteous or right without purifying our minds then we will judge someone else as being a sinner. When we judge someone else as a sinner we are guilty of doing the same thing and we remain sinners.

                      Rom 2:1 KJV Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

                      This is only a judgment by appearance. And is not a righteous judgment. a froward man can accept Jesus as his saviour but because he has not purified his mind, he can still be found to be a sinner, but only in his defiled mind. All sin and every sinner has already been fully dealt with at the cross this is the truth of scriptures.

                      Let us look at James use of the word sinner

                      Jas 4:7-8 KJV Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (8) Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

                      The sinner is one that is still double minded they have the mind of the old man and they have the mind of Christ operating in them, they have not purified themselves with the truth of his word. This man has not allowed the sacrifice of Jesus to cleanse their conscience.

                      Heb 9:14 KJV How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

                      Heb 10:1-22 KJV For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (2) For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. (3) But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. (4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (5) Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: (6) In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. (7) Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (8) Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; (9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. (10) By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. (11) And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: (12) But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (13) From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. (14) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, (16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; (17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. (19) Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (20) By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (21) And having an high priest over the house of God; (22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

                      We need to be cleansed by the living water.

                      Eph 5:25-27 KJV Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; (26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, (27) That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

                      Religion BELIEVE IT OR NOT has it backwards they will tell you that you need to repent so that your sins will be blotted out and you will be redeemed but scripture declares it exactly opposite we have been redeemed and our sins have been blotted out so we then repent because of what he has done for us.

                      Isa 44:22 KJV I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I HAVE (not I will) REDEEMED THEE.

                      When we repent in order to have our sins blotted out and for us to be redeemed then salvation becomes a work based solely upon our ability to do something in order to receive salvation. Man can boast in their repentance and glory in what they have done. God has redeemed us and has blotted out all of our sins therefore we repent…salvation it totally reliant upon what He has done for us and we can now only glory in what he has done for us. In God’s eyes …There are no sins left; There are no sinners,: there are no labels other then LOVE : But only in the defiled unclean mind of the froward does sin, sinner and any other label you may put on a man remain. Those who have purified their minds know this fact.

                      James next usage of the label sinner

                      Jas 5:19-20 KJV Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; (20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

                      Men are only sinners in their minds till they are converted by the truth of what Jesus did.

                      Now let us consider the pure in scripture;
                      Psa 24:3-5 KJV Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place? (4) He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully. (5) He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

                      Pro 21:8 KJV The way of man is froward and strange: but as for the pure, his work is right.

                      As long as you believe you are just a man your way will be froward and strange… but those who know that they are gods sons of the most high they purify themselves even as he is pure and their work is right.
                      1Jn 3:2-3 KJV Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

                      1Pe 1:22-23 KJV Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

                      Believe it or not we are love…all of us are. That is the truth that judgment and labels has hidden from all of us. AS HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD. When we know this then we purify ourselves even as he is pure. That is why unto the pure all things are pure. The truth will set you free Lanny…judgment will keep you froward and your way filled with thorns and blind you to who you really are LOVE. If you would have purified your mind Lanny with the truth then you would see all men as pure…but religion has sold you a bill of goods that keeps you CONSTANTLY JUDGING YOURSELF AND OTHES… KEEPING YOU FROWARD IN YOUR MIND AND ALL MEN SINNERS. When you crucify your judgment then you will truly know LOVE. Until then your God will remain torturous to most men in your eyes WITH THE POSSIBILITY IF YOU DON’T DO SOMETHING RIGHT YOU WILL BE TORTURED ALSO IF YOU FAIL TO REPENT IN TIME.

                      THE TRUTH IS THE OLD MAN DIED AT THE CROSS AND ALL OF MANKINDS SINS WERE ALREADY BLOTTED OUT AND WE HAVE ALL BEEN REDEEMED.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 28, 2014 at 7:32 pm

                      Patrick, James, Paul, and Jude still labeled unbelievers “sinners” long after the Cross. Are you going to argue with them not realizing they wrote by the Holy Spirit, which you must not have since you dispute Him.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 4, 2014 at 3:44 pm

                      Yes the label sinner is used by the apostles and Paul, but those who are froward use the term to push away with hatred those who don’t wear the same label they do and condemn then to eternal torment… those who are pure don’t see labels but they can stoop over and bend the knee with love and recognize that many still do and they will use the label, only to bring deliverance to the ones still living by labels. Those who are pure will use the truth that the Old man died at the cross, the sinner is already dead, and all of our sins were blotted out and all men have already been redeemed to bring an end to hatred by simply speaking the truth in love, and teaching men to cleanse their conscience from sin with the truth of the Word.

                      The funny thing is that in the ancient Hebrew the word hate is made up of the pictograph thorn samech, the seed Nu, the ox aleph and literally means Hate: Like a thorn, hate causes one to turn away from another.

                      John had some very alarming things to say about the thorn – hate, and love that each of us should consider carefully.

                      1Jn 4:20-21 KJV If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (21) And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
                      Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

                      1Jn 2:3-5 KJV And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. (4) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (5) But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

                      1Jn 3:13-18 KJV Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. (14) We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. (15) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (16) Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. (17) But whoso hath this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him? (18) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

                      Lanny they will know you are his disciple not by your hate for others, and the labels you continue to impose upon them; but for your love for them no matter what label they may appear to wear. It is time you purify your mind with the truth of his living word.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 5, 2014 at 11:52 am

                      So now Patrick, forced to admit the apostles’ word is “sinners” you accuse everybody else who uses that word of implying hatred because you call it a label. You invest that word with a meaning you yourself wrongly invented and added in order to proclaim yourself elete in its useage. You pervert Scripture making it descriptive of all humanity when it is specific to only mortal believers whose old man died at the cross. Open your eyes to the evil mortal men do to other mortal men as evidence that their old man is not put to death in this life. Your doctrine is pure fantasy and lunacy displaying you are far from being saved.

                      >90% of the world’s population physically die without confessing Christ so that they are destined for everlasting torment in the fires of hell and the Lake of Fire in accordance with God’s plan for their individual lives as Scripture says they were appointed by God for that destruction.

                      Stop dreaming an impossible dream and face Biblical reality.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 7, 2014 at 4:41 pm

                      Lanny all you are doing is judging by appearance and not by faith. God says he is the savior of all men especially those that believe. 1 tim 4:10

                      And you are showing yourself as being froward in light of scripture. And sin and sinners only exist in the mind of the froward but they do not exist in truth in God because he took away the sins of the world and killed the old man at the cross. When you actually purify your mind with the truth of his word you will know this.

                      Remember scripture declares that any God who cannot save is an idol a work of your own hands Isa 45: 19-24

                      A God who torments most of mankind but does not save them is nothing but an idol;According to scriptures that were spoken in righteousness and were sworn by His name making them immutable.

                      I love you enough to tell you the truth.

                      I Cor 13: 5 …LOVE thinks no evil…does not reckon, count, compute, calculate, take into account, to make an account of, weigh the reasons, take an inventory of our bad nature, our mode of thinking, feeling, acting, that is wrong, wicked

                      (The definitions comes from Thayer’s.)

                      Love does not make an account of thinking feeling acting that is wrong or wicked… Yet your god who is supposed to be love does… something is totally wrong with that view. It maligns what love is.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 7, 2014 at 5:10 pm

                      Patrick, if all men have already been redeemed to bring an end to hatred by simply speaking the truth in love, then why is there so much malice in the major portion of the world’s population? > 90% of today’s world’s current population will physically die without any working knowledge of the love of Christ. Your claim lacks real life evidence in today’s world. In 2,000 years Christianity has failed to convert the whole world. It is an impractical expectation that should have been dumped long ago. The world is NOT getting better due to the presence of Christianity; it is getting WORSE and Christians are suffering persecution for not being politically correct. PC is today’s religion, Patrick.

                      I am patriotically in favor of exterminating all gays, their associates, and their friends; but it is not PC to do so today, yet I hope for a future awaking to sanity that reason will prevail unto a massive genocide of the gay community. As an American Christian, I will be willing and happy to participate in any governmental program to rid America of its gay community. I wish I could live to see it and do it.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 8, 2014 at 6:49 pm

                      Patrick, July 7, 2014 at 4:41 pm you falsely interpret your faith by denying reality since “sinner” is still used by the Apostles long after the Cross and the Revelation 21: 8 leaves all liars in everlasting torment at the END of the Book. You “don’t have a leg to stand on” in perverting Scripture. There is no hope for the lost once they physically die to be saved afterward: there is no such teaching in God’s perfect literal Holy Bible.

                      But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. {Revelation 21: 8}

                      1 Timothy 4: 10 establishes the POTENTIAL of God’s salvation and the limitation of its EFFECTIVENESS to only those who believe. The text, specially of those that believe, focuses the reality that FEW believe and are actually saved. To the rest God’s salvation has no profit and they burn everlastingly in torment as their moral failure dictates. Reality is attested in the Bible. Your foolishness isn’t except that your will be in ET for it.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 17, 2014 at 5:06 pm

                      If the God of Christianity was Love…Then the church wouldn’t be in the damnation and condemnation business…

                      “if all men have already been redeemed to bring an end to hatred by simply speaking the truth in love, “

                      No “if” about it, scriptures declare
                      I have blotted out, as by a thick cloud, Thy transgressions, And as by a cloud thy sins, Return unto Me, for I have redeemed thee.
                      (Isa 44:22 YLT)

                      Notice it says “I have redeemed thee, and blotted out thy transgressions” not “I will redeem thee, and blot out thy transgressions” We return repent because we have already been redeemed and our sins have already been blotted out. God gets all the glory this way. Religion teaches us the opposite way to repent and then God will blot out our sins and redeem you; which makes salvation nothing but a result of something you have done. A work you can glory in.

                      Jesus wore a crown of thorns on his head when he was crucified. John 19:2-5 As I have already proven from the Hebrew hatred is thorns and according to Jesus thorns are the cares of this world which include all of the labels designed to separate us into many different groups. ALL of OUR LABELS AND HATREDS have ALREADY BEEN PLACED UPON HIS HEAD AND WENT TO THE CROSS AND WAS CRUCIFIED IN HIM. He bore all sickness at the cross HE BORE ALL OUR SINS, SORROWS AND GREIFS AND BY HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. Isa 53:4 I Peter 2:24 This is the truth and it will not change just because someone has not heard or believed it. And if something is true what you believe won’t change it one bit. It will remain true no matter what anyone believes. It is any wonder why the world has not believed yet they keep hearing a false gospel that involves nothing but works on their part. They have to have faith they have to believe just right they have to be baptised or they are not saved.

                      The just shall live by his faith does not mean we are the ones having faith but we are living by the faith of Christ who is living through us The just shall live by Christ’s faith, Faithfulness. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:8 KJV We are saved by faith… Read it carefully …and that not of yourselves… It is not our faith that saves us it is Christs Jesus’! we do not get to claim any glory…

                      But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord. 1Co 1:27-31 KJV

                      All you are doing is judging by sight and not by the persuasion of faith that comes from Christ. Gal 2:20 Jesus healed all men yet why are so many still sick? They have not believed nor have they heard the truth. And the church does not really believe what is written they hope it is true but they are not convinced that it is. They are trying to have faith not realizing that their faith is not His faith. Jesus Christ is living his life through us by his faith. Religion has been taught to judge by appearance and sight; but they do not know hardly anything about judging a righteous judgment.

                      Sickness in any person Does not mean that their sickness was not taken care of when he received his stripes. The fact that most do not know that they are saved at the cross and are redeemed and reconciled to God Does not affect the truth that they absolutely are in God’s eyes. As long as they don’t know who they really are in Him they will remain outside the city. But there is coming a day when they will learn what God did for them and they will drop all the junk and enter the city. The truth will set you free when you come to it. The truth of scripture is plain All men have died when he died.

                      For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 2Co 5:14-16 KJV

                      All men have been reconciled

                      And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them; and hath committed in us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:18-19

                      What Jesus did at the cross is the TRUTH and is not a lie. What men falsely believe make what Jesus did ineffective in this world today. Religion only hates those who don’t have the right labels: And the world will never come to know what Jesus did because of the lies they teach. But thank God he is raising up men and women who will preach the truth even if the pharisees don’t like it.

                      Your hatred for the Gays is duly noted and judged by scriptures you don’t know God. You don’t know love, and you are breaking the great commandment of love by maintaining murder in your thoughts for men who were created in God’s image men he has died for and has cleansed of their sins. You do not have eternal life. These are not my words they are found in scriptures.

                      If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1Jn 4:20 KJV

                      And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes. 1Jn 2:3-11 KJV
                      Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. 1Jn 3:15 KJV

                      All men are children of God and are your brothers in him. This Paul said to the Greeks in Athens

                      For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Act 17:28-31 KJV

                      Religion has taught you how to hate others in the name of love this is nothing but a lie Your hatred betrays you. Jesus specifically teaches us that we are supposed to do good to those who are your enemies How is murdering them or being complicit in their murder doing good to them? Repent Lanny Your religions way is not God’s way.

                      These are words you should meditate upon:

                      As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife. The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Burning lips and a wicked heart are like a potsherd covered with silver dross. He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him; When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart. Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation. Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him. A lying tongue hateth those that are afflicted by it; and a flattering mouth worketh ruin. Pro 26:21-28 KJV

                      Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord. Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy. These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Pro 6:14-19 KJV

                      Thanks for proving that you are froward crooked in your thinking..thank God Jesus came to make the crooked (froward) straight(righteous) you have great hope in front of you if you give up your judgment and hatred and learn to let love guide you in all areas of your life.

                      I don’t care what you believe about yourself or others I know who you truly are and I know who they truly are. you all are the redeemed of the Lord.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 17, 2014 at 8:10 pm

                      Lanny if “salvation of all” was “potential” the Greek of that verse would have been in the subjuctive mood, unfortunately for you it most definitely is not:

                      ηλπικαμεν επι θεω ζωντι ος εστιν σωτηρ παντων ανθρωπων μαλιστα πιστων — we rely upon God living who is Savior of ALL humans especially of believing ones

                      ηλπικαμεν – we rely ‘on’ – verb perfect active indicative 1st person plural
                      επι – upon – preposition
                      θεω – God – Noun dative singular masculine
                      ζωντι – living – verb present active participle dative singular masculine
                      ος – who – perfect Nominative singular masculine
                      εστιν – is – verb present active indicative 3rd person singular
                      σωτηρ – Savior – noun nominative singular masculine
                      παντων – of ALL – adjective genitive plural masculine
                      ανθρωπων – humans – noun genitive plural masculine

                      “Who” is in the perfect tense, “is” is the present active indicative

                      Perfect Tense
                      The basic thought of the perfect tense is that the progress of an action has been completed and the results of the action are continuing on, in full effect. In other words, the progress of the action has reached its culmination and the finished results are now in existence. Unlike the English perfect, which indicates a completed past action, the Greek perfect tense indicates the continuation and present state of a completed past action.

                      Present Tense
                      The present tense usually denotes continuous kind of action. It shows ‘action in progress’ or ‘a state of persistence.’ When used in the indicative mood, the present tense denotes action taking place or going on in the present time.

                      Active Voice
                      Grammatical voice indicates whether the subject is the performer of the action of the verb (active voice), or the subject is the recipient of the action (passive voice). If the subject of the sentence is executing the action, then the verb is referred to as being in the active voice.

                      Indicative Mood
                      The indicative mood is a statement of fact or an actual occurrence from the writer’s or speaker’s perspective. It may be action occurring in past, present, or future time

                      So basically we trust in a living God who is the Savior of all men this is a completed act with results continuing on in the present time, this is a statement of fact not of potential. But most of all he is the savior of those who believe…believers are just a subset of all men he has already saved – healed made whole, to rescue from destruction danger.

                      σωτηρ
                      Soter
                      – Definition:
                      1. saviour, deliverer, preserver
                      – Origin: from G4982

                      – Original: σώζω
                      G4982 – Transliteration: Sozo
                      – Definition:
                      1. to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
                      a. one (from injury or peril)
                      1. to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
                      2. to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
                      b. to save in the technical biblical sense
                      1. negatively 1b
                      c. to deliver from the penalties of the messianic judgment 1b
                      d. to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the messianic deliverance
                      – Origin: from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, safe)
                      – TDNT entry: 23:05,1
                      – Part(s) of speech: Verb

                      – Strong’s: From a primary word σῶς sōs̄(contraction for the obsolete σάος saos safe); to save that is deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): – heal preserve save (self) do well be (make) whole.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 19, 2014 at 11:34 am

                      Patrick, 1 Timothy 4: 10 establishes, by the words of the text: specially of those that believe, the reality that FEW believe and are actually saved. To the rest God’s salvation has no profit and they burn everlastingly in torment as their moral failure dictates. Reality is attested in the Bible.

                      You wrote: “Who” is in the perfect tense. A personal pronoun doesn’t have tense. Also the verb, to be, doesn’t need to be subjunctive because all men who believe He saves. All men who refuse to believe He doesn’t save.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 27, 2014 at 6:57 pm

                      Lanny the bible was not originally written in English but in the Greek and that is absolutely not what the passage states in the Greek But if you actually knew the Greek you would know that. Sorry I don’t see what you see because it clearly says we trust in a Living God WHO IS the the savior of ALL Men especially those that believe. The Greek tense makes this a completed act in the past that continues to affect the present. In God’s eyes all men are already saved by what was done at the cross…but most of all those who believe. Those who believe get to experience salvation…being made whole healed… now the rest will get to when he burns off all that binds them. Lanny the Greek does not support your assertion. I cant help the original language doesn’t agree with your denominations teachings Maybe you should ask them why they changed it.

                      Lanny has said,”Also the verb, to be, doesn’t need to be subjunctive because all men who believe He saves. All men who refuse to believe He doesn’t save.”

                      Actually in order for your statement to be true it must be in the subjunctive mood. Which is the tense of possibility. Jesus is not the possible savior of all men because that would make him also the possible savior of those who believe. What good is a possible savior to believers or anyone for that matter. You still have to worry about if you are saved because you may have done something that will cause you to lose it. I don’t know that God anymore, I knew about him from what men taught me when I was first saved and did not know scriptures better but that God is nothing but a construct of man’s imagination because he cannot save which is what the bible says. Isa 45:20-24

                      I have met God and I know he has saved all at the cross and I will trust in a living God WHO Is the savior of all men especially those that believe. You are just adding a word again that is not even in the context to suit your denominations interpretation of scriptures.

                      We trust in a living God who is…not who might be. One is the truth of scriptures the other is nothing but the imaginations of men who use fear and condemnation to force people to do what they want them to do.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 27, 2014 at 7:34 pm

                      Meant subjunctive mood…

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2014 at 1:24 am

                      Patrick, your “now the rest will get to when he burns off all that binds them” does away with the Blood of Jesus and replaces it with the fire and brimstone of the Lake of Fire as that which removes sins. Wake up to reality !!!

                      Without shedding of blood is no remission. {Hebrews 9: 22}

                      Patrick, this is what I wrote to Alexandria, 25% truth {wait for it}
                      These people say the fire purifies them so that some “day” they’ll repent and confess Christ. The Bible doesn’t say any such thing, but they say it is all in the meaning of fire and brimstone. What they fail to realize is that if the fire purifies them, they do NOT need the BLOOD OF CHRIST to wash away their sins. Their analogy is the purifying of precious metals by smelting wherein the dross is skimmed off until all that’s left is pure metal. The sinner that physically dies without confessing Christ goes through the Lake of Fire until he is purged of his sins and made pure. Why then will he need the Blood of Jesus Christ? When he is purified he’ll not need to repent and confess Christ died for his sins, because being pure he will no longer have sins. What’s baffling, is they say even the Christian saint must go through the Lake of Fire since the saint when he dies had not stopped sinning totally and still had residual sins to be purged by the fire of the Lake of Fire. Of what good was the Blood of Christ then if it doesn’t take away ALL sins, past, present, and future.

                      Don’t you see, Patrick, you really don’t believe the Blood of Christ COMPLETELY saves the sinner who believes it. You add to the Blood your heretical fire and brimstone and make a protestant Purgatory for everybody.

                      Look, man, how inconsistent your purging is that the Christian saint must be purged by fire and brimstone of all the residual of his sins while the sinner who physically died without confessing Christ needs to be purged of ONLY what particular sins binds him from confessing Christ and the rest of his sins are taken away by the Blood. Don’t you know that every single sin of the sinner binds him? Your jesus therefore died only for some sins, not for all of the sinners sins and the sinner pays for most of his sins by himself. That’s pure heresy, Patrick.

                    • Patrick Strickland August 6, 2014 at 3:40 pm

                      Starting at a wrong concept will always bring you to a wrong conclusion Lanny. When you assume something that the other does not believe and then tear it apart all you have done is tear apart A LIE YOU CREATED in your own imagination…It is called a straw man argument and is a total waste of time.

                      I have previously quoted that God has already redeemed all men and has already blotted out all sins. This is what Isaiah has already stated that God has done.

                      Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

                      Scripture did not say repent and I WILL redeem thee after you repent, NO absolutely not it said the opposite I HAVE REDEEMED thee so return to me. We already all have redemption we just need to believe it, and walk from what we have and return to our place in him. I cor 8:6-12

                      Now I want to show you the connection to the blood in the process of redemption:

                      According as HE HATH CHOSEN US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the PLACING AS SONS THROUGH Jesus Christ INTO HIMSELF, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD, THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GRACE; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; HAVING MADE KNOWN TO US THE MYSTERY OF HIS WILL, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times TO BRING INTO ONE THE WHOLE IN THE CHRIST, BOTH THINGS IN THE HEAVENS AND THE THINGS UPON THE EARTH – IN HIM: Eph 1:4-10

                      IN WHOM WE HAVE REDEMPTION THROUGH HIS BLOOD…did you catch that Lanny redemption is found IN Christ through his blood. We were all chose in him before there was a world created… we came into this world and forgot we were in him and lived a life separate from the life of God within us… and finally he is gathering us all back into Christ where we started. The blood of Christ is just a part of redemption for all who are gathered back into Christ, and none are going to be left out since all started in him in the first place.
                      Love constrains us that When Christ died for ALL… ALL men died in him. 2 cor 5:14 This is a scriptural fact and we were All redeemed through his blood and God has gathering ALL he died for into Christ when he died. We all were chosen in him we were all redeemed through his blood in him. And it HIS WILL TO GATHER US ALL INTO ONE IN CHRIST. Remember that God has sworn by his name making it immutable that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that IN HIM they have RIGHTEOUSNESS and strength. Isa 45:19-25 The only place this will ever be true is IN Christ.

                      But of him are ye IN Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and RIGHTEOUSNESS, and sanctification, and REDEMPTION: 1Co 1:30 KJV

                      The blood of Jesus is absolutely effective for all men since all men are redeemed by what Jesus did at the cross. The fire is for burning off and purifying our works. The fire is also absolutely effective for all men because all men’s works are going to be tried by fire. God is judging all men IN righteousness in Christ who is made unto all men redemption. Right now this is a spiritual truth that has already been accomplished for all creation, but in this earth we do not see it yet fully manifested, because we judge by sight and not by faith. But it is a promise that will continue to affect all till all come into TRUTH OF Knowing they are in Christ just as scriptures declare. This only shows a lack of trust in God on your part when you refuse to accept what he swore to do.

                      Now we absolutely know what the will of God is the salvation of all men I tim 2:1-6; 4:9-11 His will is the gathering of all into one even into Christ. Eph 1:9,10 And we are guaranteed that if we pray anything according to his will he hears us and we HAVE whatsoever we ask. I john 5:14:15 I have prayed His will for all and know I have been given an answer…You can have this same confidence in God if you give up your judgment, and learn to trust him at his word.

                      This is a promise with an absolute guarantee that is also sworn by his name to come about making it an immutable unchangeable FACT FOR ALL MEN. All God’s judgments, which are in righteousness are to bring this victory, truth to pass. Anything less is nothing but a lie of our carnal minds.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 7:47 pm

                      Patrick, again and again you apply the Scriptures to ALL men when the Scriptures are ADDRESSED to believers, even specific believers, not all men. That’s your error and that’s why your doctrine is erroneous. The Holy Bible belongs to Israelites and Christians. They constitute only a minority of the world’s population. These “few” are in covenant relationship with God and He saves only them. They are the ones to whom God has made promises that He will not fail to keep. That’s where you error, dear Patrick. You constantly read the whole world of humanity into the “we” and “us” of Scripture while ignoring the “they” and “them” who are outside the covenants of God.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 8:57 pm

                      Patrick, your “now the rest will get to when he burns off all that binds them” you did NOT explain. #1 WHERE are the rest when he burns off all that binds them? #2 What is binding them in when he burns off all that binds them? Aren’t you meaning they are in the Lake of Fire having their rebellious attitudes {some of their sins} burned away?

                    • Patrick Strickland August 7, 2014 at 3:30 pm

                      Well Lanny when scriptures declare in Adam ALL die is that speaking of only Israel and the church? No it is not It is speaking of all humanity. And when it immediately states that in Christ ALL will be made righteous is it speaking of a different group of people then who the first applied? Absolutely not. Other wise what you have is what Adam did is greater and of a greater impact then what Jesus did and we know that in Romans 5 that the phrase much more is used many times dealing with how much more Effective what Jesus did then what Adam did. Adam affected all humanity. What Christ did affects all humanity. When every knee bows and every tongue confesses that in him they have righteousness and strength that does not mean that only Israel and the church bow their knee… especially when he stated just a few verses before that, God commands ALL the ends of the earth to look and be saved? No all the ends of the earth is not just israel and the church, all the ends of the earth includes all mankindwho will look and be saved because every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that IN HIM they have righteousness and strength. This is a word that has gone forth in righteousness and will not return without accomplishing what it was sent to do. Not only that God swore by his name making it an immutable unchangeable fact that must happen.

                      God states in Isa 55

                      For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55:10-11 KJV

                      God sent his word out and it cannot return to him without accomplishing what he sent it to do. This is a biblical fact. God’s word is absolutely trustworthy and will accomplish what he sent it to do. As I have told you before God is not obligated to accomplish my interpretation of scriptures. Nor is he obligated to accomplish your interpretation of his word. But he has obligated himself to keep…to accomplish what HE SENT HIS WORD TO DO.

                      Jesus is the living Word of God sent to accomplish a specific purpose; and that purpose is to be the savior of the world. Jesus is not just the savior of Israel and the church, whatever denomination you believe in… No he was sent by God to be the savior of the world ALL mankind, none left out.

                      And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 1Jn 4:14 KJV

                      Jesus could not have returned to the Father without actually accomplishing that fact saving the world. We know he returned to the Father so he accomplished what he was sent to do that is why I Tim 4:10 is in the perfect tense when describing that we trust in a living God Who is the saviour of ALL, especially those that believe. Jesus is the Savior of the believer but he also is the Savior of all men and this is an accomplished fact in the past that continues to affect the present. Not one persons doubt and unbelief especially a religious man will make the faith of God without effect. God forbid let every man be a liar an let God be true…Rom 3:3,4

                      If Jesus does not save the world then he is making an idle boast in a lie. You cannot be called a savior of the world if you really don’t save the world. And worse yet he returned back to the Father having failed to accomplish what he was sent to do,to be the saviour of the world, which by the way is totally impossible to occur.

                      Lanny you believe in a god who sent his word out and did not accomplish what he sent it to do. That is not the God of scriptures. But that is what you believe right now and you have to…till you finally get tired of all the fear and doubt concerning is God truly trustworthy enough to save everyone, even yourself. When you finally answer that question then you can fully trust in him who is completely trustworthy. May God truly open your eyes to his truth.

                      Jesus accomplished what he was sent to do and even he testified to it… ‘If I be lifted up I will drag ALL men unto myself”, this spake he of his death. Jesus was lifted up like the brass serpent was and all who looked were healed. Jesus is now taken the responsibility upon himself to drag all to look at himself on the cross so that they may be healed which is another word for saved sozo. All men are commanded to look and be saved and all will look.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 5:44 pm

                      Patrick, God commands ALL the ends of the earth to look and be saved, BUT NOT all the ends of the earth DO look and get saved. What Christ did affects all humanity and that’s why the majority go to hell and only a minority are saved. The majority did NOT look, so therefore they everlastingly perish. It is a gift and only those who receive it profit unto everlasting salvation and they are the every knee and every tongue confessing His Lordship. That’s what every saint does. The unbeliever cannot truthfully acknowledge Jesus’ Lordship. They are that much more guilty before God so that their condemnation is undeniable and therefore they everlastingly perish. Certainly what Christ did affects all humanity. {2 Corinthians 2: 16} “To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life.” How can that be true if death is swallowed up in victory for everybody, dear Patrick? The death and life of 2: 16 are everlasting, poor Patrick, therefore the majority perish. Six thousand years of human history with less than ten percent even claiming Christ proves the majority go to hell and God did not intend to save them. Your doctrine is falsely manufactured and is a product of Satan’s denial that you shall not surely die. Wake up to reality. Salvation is available ONLY IN THIS LIFE. There is no hope of salvation offered in the Bible after physical death. There are no entreaties written in the Bible for people to come to Christ after they have physically died. God’s command, for all the ends of the earth to look and be saved, is given to mortally living people. God addresses all the ends of the EARTH. That’s where living people are; the dead are ELSEWHERE, not on earth, but in hell. Yet you try to make it apply by saying hell is under the earth. Still, Patrick, it is not earth, but it is hell. God’s command is not to all who are in hell; it is to all who are all over the earth. It is simple English and because you are so blind you cannot see it. That’s what false doctrine does to people, just like Sodom’s “former” estate is their mortal wickedness on planet earth. You can’t acknowledge their current estate is their “latter” estate so that their “former” would be their corrupt morality. What blindness your rebellion against everlasting torment has caused you.

        • Mary Vanderplas June 17, 2014 at 5:14 am

          I would indict no one. Soldiers are doing their duty to their country; they are patriots, not criminals. That war is part of human history and that it may sometimes be a necessary course of action for the sake of freedom from tyranny does not mean that war is God’s intended design for the human family. God’s design, as taught and enacted by Jesus, is peacemaking and love of enemies, not war and killing. The real issue here is that using the Old Testament texts that portray God as a warrior (and as commanding genocide) to justify war and the killing of human beings is misguided – for the reasons I’ve stated.

          The story of Sodom and Gomorrah reflects a tale of environmental disaster that is attributed to human wickedness. The disaster is seen to be an act of divine judgment. This text and its retributive theology need to be considered in conjunction with the preceding chapter, in which God is portrayed as ready to rescue all from death. This portrayal stands in sharp contrast to your capricious-tyrant-god eager to destroy a whole city. Your god is a far cry from the true God, the God who in Jesus Christ acted to rescue all from death.

          I’m done engaging in conversation with you. I’m done reading and responding to your hate-filled, scripture-twisting, self-serving, good-news-obscuring garbage. Try taking off the blinders and seeing yourself as you really are: a person no different from any of the persons you routinely condemn, i.e., a sinner in need of mercy.

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 1:09 pm

            Mary, see ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE.
            Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

            WHO made an example of them, Mary, God or the “Writer?” Who’s the Writer, Mary, God, or a Jew of Israel or a Jew of the Church?

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2014 at 4:11 pm

    Mary, Sodom and Gomorrah a tale of environmental disaster that is attributed to human wickedness? You’re trying to tell me that one man humping another man ignited natural fire in the sky and polluted the ground with natural sulfur? Is that how much power perverted sex acts have on town and country? Nothing of divine origin, just guy on guy and girl on girl? How many did it take to burn down both towns and the surrounding area completely? You propose a funny myth: a sexual holiday with everybody participating.

    • Mary Vanderplas June 20, 2014 at 5:24 am

      The text links the ecological disaster that befell the cities and surrounding area and the wickedness of Sodom – wickedness defined not as homosexual behavior generally, but as inhospitality through sexual assault. Apparently, the human behaviors had a great deal of power, though the link to the ecological catastrophe may not be obvious. That human behaviors can and do have adverse effects on the environment is a phenomenon not limited to the ancient world – witness the depletion of the ozone layer today. The text pictures the destruction as being an act of divine judgment – a picture that is mitigated or critiqued by the theology in chapter 18, wherein God is depicted as being open to acting graciously toward the city for the sake of even a small number of righteous. Your punitive, quick-to-anger, tyrant-deity is not the God this story reveals.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 21, 2014 at 9:44 am

        Mary, why do your many words try to hide the real cause you actually stated: “The text pictures the destruction as being an act of divine judgment.” Divine judgment is God’s judgment: the work of none other than God Himself. God killed all those people in a single act of His furious ANGER against their sexual abuses, assaults, and perversions. God’s soul absolutely hated {Psalm 11: 5, 6} their sinful souls and destroyed them off the earth sending them into everlasting torment {verse 6}.

        Why do you think we have the word, sodomy, if it isn’t from the city of Sodom? Get real and call a spade a spade. Sodom and Gomorrah were the contemporary Mecca of homosexuality and God made an example of it. See ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE.

        Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

        Just WHO made an example of them, Mary, God or the “Writer?” Who’s the Writer, Mary, God, or a Jew of Israel or a Jew of the Church?

        • Mary Vanderplas June 23, 2014 at 5:43 am

          What is pictured in the text is gang rape, the sexual abuse of the visitors by every man in town, not loving acts involving consenting parties. Try reading the text for what it says instead of for what you need it to say to support your raging homophobia. Moreover, see Ezekiel 16:49, where the sins of Sodom are elaborated to include behaviors beyond violent, abusive sexual activity. The text connects an ecological disaster with the wickedness of Sodom, seeing the catastrophe as God’s judgment on the city. It says nothing about God hating their sinful souls and destroying them and sending them into eternal torment. Once again, you read your perverse doctrine into the text. The text needs to be read along with the preceding chapter, which pictures God as anything but eager to judge and punish; chapter 18 pictures God as being open to alternatives, open to the possibility that his rebellious creatures be rescued from death. Such a picture stands in stark contrast to your eager-to-destroy deity. That in Jude 7 sinners of the past are given by the author as examples means only what it says: divine judgment of human sin is sure.

          So, what do you sing in your church?? Is this what you sing and what you teach to the young? “Jesus hates them, this I know, for my doctrine assures me so. Those like I will make out well; all the rest will burn in hell. Yes, Jesus hates them; yes, Jesus hates them; yes, Jesus hates them. My doctrine assures me so.” When the young are old enough to see this as the crap that it is, they likely will leave the church, never to return.

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2014 at 8:32 pm

            Mary, did that homosexual gang rape ever take place? Does God passionately hate the committing of sin, any sin? Can the committing of any sin be accomplished without a person?

            Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven {Genesis 19: 24}

            That’s no ecological disaster seen as the catastrophe as God’s judgment on the city; it is directly attributed to God as the Source of both the fire and the brimstone. The next verse directly declares HE (the LORD God) overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground.

            Your minimizing evil heart of unbelief is so very obviously making you a liar as you try to make God’s deed into a natural cause and effect. “The link to the ecological catastrophe may not be obvious” because it is impossible, fantasizing Mary.

            But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. {Revelation 21: 8}

            • Mary Vanderplas June 26, 2014 at 5:38 am

              That God judges sin and evil does not mean that God hates the persons who commit the sin and do the evil. That God will act to eradicate evil does not mean he will consign evildoers to eternal torment.

              The story reflects a tale of an ecological disaster woven into the life of Abraham and Lot. The language of the text suggests an ecological disaster: sulfur and fire raining down quite likely describes an explosion set off by an earthquake and resulting fires (or a volcanic eruption). The catastrophe is here pictured as resulting from human wickedness and reflecting divine judgment. God is seen as acting through events in the natural order to do his will. The picture of judgment here given is challenged/mitigated by chapter 18, in which God is seen as seeking a way to redeem all.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2014 at 12:14 pm

        Mary, when in the timeline of history was the Epistle of Jude penned, before the Cross or after it? Does it reflect the Jewish God or the Christian God?

        Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

        Mary, when in the timeline of history was the Second Epistle of Peter penned, before the Cross or after it? Does it reflect the Jewish God or the Christian God?

        And (God spared not) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly {2 Peter 2: 6}

        It is wickedness to tell a lop-sided story and portray a lie. That’s Satan’s tactic. Get the truth or burn in the Lake of Fire forever for your failure. You’ve got to believe the RIGHT things to go to heaven.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2014 at 12:23 pm

          Mary, WHO did the example making and WHEN was it repeatedly written in the epistles of Peter and Jude? Isn’t it New Covenant theology?

          Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, ARE SET FORTH FOR AN EXAMPLE, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

          And (God spared not) turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, MAKING THEM AN ENSAMPLE unto those that after should live ungodly {2 Peter 2: 6}