25% Truth (Wait for it…)

25% Truth (Wait for it…)

This is post two of four, based on a portion of the sermon, Being Led by the Holy Spirit (Acts 16:6-15), by Robert Williams.
 

That’s Not God

According to Williams, there are four ways you can tell you are not hearing God’s voice:

  1. God never says anything that contradicts Scripture
  2. God’s voice is not the voice of anxiety, unsettledness or exhaustion
  3. God’s voice is not the voice of obscurity – “Clear trumpet”
  4. God’s corrective voice is not one of guilt or condemnation, but loving discipline and conviction of sin

Today, we’ll examine number two: God’s voice is not the voice of anxiety, unsettledness or exhaustion.

Do the words of God cause anxiety?

If I understand Williams correctly, when one hears what he or she believes to be the voice of God, if the message given by that voice causes anxiety, unsettledness or exhaustion, then he or she must assume it can’t possibly be the voice of God. Given the first point Williams made (God never says anything that contradicts Scripture), I’ll begin by examining Williams’ second point in light of scripture.

When Israel found out their “promised land” was already inhabited, they felt anxiety. Their punishment for their lack of faith was to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until their “carcases [were] consumed in the wilderness.” Sounds exhausting to me. When all was said and done, their offspring obtained the promised land under the leadership of Joshua, that is, once kings were hanged, men, women, and children were slaughtered or enslaved, animals were crippled or killed, and cities were burned. And God said to Joshua, “You are very old, but there is still much land to be taken…” Altogether, the conquest took 40 long, anxiety-ridden, exhausting years of unsettledness. And this is just one example. The Old Testament is absolutely loaded with similar examples.

Now here’s the tricky part.

We must either believe that the Old Testament leaders (and/or writers) were not hearing God’s voice or believe that Williams is wrong. I hope that readers take the time to think this through, but for the sake of argument, put that idea on the back burner for a bit.

Here is the question.

Should we dismiss as NOT-the-voice-of-God any message that causes anxiety, unsettledness, or exhaustion? We can find the answer in Christ.

Just prior to His crucifixion, Jesus prayed, “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me…” The voice of God brought a message that caused Jesus to fall on His knees in prayer.  Luke describes the scene:

…and having been in agony, he was more earnestly praying, and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground.

Hematohidrosis is “a condition in which capillary blood vessels that feed the sweat glands rupture, causing them to exude blood,” and can be caused by emotional stress and acute fear. There are documented cases of people sentenced to death breaking out in a bloody sweat. Had God not strengthened Jesus, perhaps He would have fallen asleep like the disciples did:

And having risen up from the prayer, having come unto the disciples, he found them sleeping from the sorrow

John Gill explains the situation:

…he found them sleeping for sorrow; on his account; for he had signified unto them, how exceeding sorrowful he was; and they might perceive by his looks and gestures, the anxiety and distress of mind he was in, which must needs affect them; and besides, he had given them some intimations of his being to be betrayed by one of them, and of his sufferings and death, and speedy departure from them; and because of these things, sorrow had filled their hearts, and this had induced heaviness and sleep upon them…

If God’s voice is not the voice of anxiety, unsettledness or exhaustion, then why are Jesus and the disciples behaving in this way? Obviously, God’s message to Christ was to drink the cup, however awful it was, because doing so would bring redemption to the world.

My argument is two-fold.

First, God’s voice can and does, at times, produce anxiety, unsettledness, and exhaustion. Second, if we believe God is speaking to us, and the message we hear brings anxiety, unsettledness, and exhaustion, we need to examine the underlying cause or circumstances of our emotions and respond appropriately. I actually wrote a blog about this a while back, which you can read here.

Earlier I wrote:

Now here’s the tricky part. We must either believe that the Old Testament leaders (and/or writers) were not hearing God’s voice or believe that Williams is wrong. I hope that readers take the time to think this through, but for the sake of argument, put that idea on the back burner for a bit.

Off the back burner…

I propose instead of taking an “either/or” approach, we take an “and” approach. Why? Well, let me put it like this. Suppose God tells you He is going to give you and your family a house (we’ll call it the “promised house”), but when you find the promised house, you discover it is currently inhabited by another family. You think God might be telling you to slaughter every living thing in the promised house — the parents, the two-and-a-half kids, the dog named Spot, and a goldfish. You think God might kill you if you don’t obey Him, but your kids will take possession of the house after you are dead, as long as they obey.

That’s not the voice of God.

Read the other blogs in this series here.

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas July 21, 2014 at 5:22 am

    I agree that when the voice one thinks one is hearing is a voice that commands violence against enemies, one can safely assume that it isn’t the voice of God. I agree, too, that the whole notion of conquest, of wresting property that belongs to another, is not compatible with who God is. The conquest stories in Joshua are, in my view, largely retellings of Israel’s history that reflect ideology, not historically accurate accounts of what God said and did. However, I don’t see this as being particularly relevant to this preacher’s point about hearing and heeding the voice of God not leading to anxiety, unsettledness, or exhaustion. I would guess that what he is talking about has more to do with God’s will for those whom he loves not being that we burn ourselves out or live in a state of turmoil trying to do everything (or trying to do something that doesn’t fit with who we were created to be). And I agree with his contention that this isn’t the will of God.

    I agree with what you say/imply about obedience to the will of God sometimes involving great struggle, as seen in the struggle endured by Jesus and the disciples in Gethsemane. I don’t think that the preacher’s point about God’s will generally not being anxiety and exhaustion rules this out, though. Again, I think that what he is talking about is living a life characterized by balance, about not being driven to the point of jeopardizing our health and well-being, not about never making costly choices in service to others. It’s the difference, as I’ve heard it said, between being burned out (which is not the will of God) and being poured out.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 23, 2014 at 11:40 pm

      Mary, when you continue to think the conquest stories are an ideological retelling and Paul didn’t write the Pastoral Epistles, then obviously you don’t believe God’s Holy Bible in any consistent way, which means you don’t have any Absolute Truth, therefore you say anything you please. You mock God’s Book and God Who wrote it. You cannot hold it in high regard while dismissing portions of it. Jesus didn’t do that which you do.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2014 at 6:49 pm

        Mary, consider Psalm 110 that merges both the First Advent and the Second Coming. In verse four Jesus of Nazareth is the Priest Forever after the order of Melchisedec in order to offer His blood upon the Mercy Seat in the heavenly sanctuary. In verse one He is the Victor awaiting the parade of His enemies under His feet. In verses five and six He is the yet to be the Davidic King over this whole planet in which He will stack the dead bodies of all those who dare to rebel against Him until they fill full a place or places He designates. They got to be dead corpses because Jesus, Himself, killed them. They are specified “the dead bodies” in the text, very specific of what they are. They were living mortal people before they got killed. This is a global event and a future event by means of the use of “many countries” and the future tense. Nothing like this has yet happened and remains to the Second Coming in power and great glory. It is post Gospel of the crucifix. God doesn’t change, dear Mary. Romans 9, 10, & 11 tells clearly God will one day continue what He literally began with ethnic Israel. Jesus is King of Israel and He will literally reign. The First Advent is a literal fulfillment of prophecy and so is the Second Coming. God demonstrated in the First Advent how prophecy is to be understood.

        Psalm 110 is no ideological reading. It is what God does, plain and literal.

      • Mary Vanderplas July 26, 2014 at 6:49 am

        There are other standards for the truth of the Bible besides historical veracity. It is unlikely, contrary to your assumptions, that Jesus practiced an “idolatry of history,” that he held that the truth of the Bible depends on it always being historically true.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 27, 2014 at 1:03 am

          Mary, please stop deceiving yourself into thinking you believe the Bible when you refuse its consistancy. When Jesus referred to Jonah three days and nights in the belly of the great fish as prophetic of His death He verified Biblical historical accuracy, historical veracity. You have no right to make the conquest stories anything but accurate history, nor Galatians 3: 28 other than gender value equality because the Pauline Pastoral Epistles are clear about ministerial leadership being male dominant.

          Mary, the issue is not the truth of the Bible, but YOUR view of its truthfulness. You don’t believe it, because you call its history not accurate, but ideological retelling AND the Pauline Pastoral Epistles not penned by Paul, himself. You do that to foster your two false doctrines that God is too loving to be that way and your feminist notion that men and women are equal in responsibilities. On the latter, can’t you see you got a uterus and boobs and men don’t. Why don’t you then campaign that women are far superior to men since you would naturally think they can do that much more than men can naturally do?

          Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, AS UNTO THE WEAKER VESSEL, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. {1 Peter 3: 7}

          As if you haven’t noticed in the God-breathed text God’s evaluation of you women is “as unto the weaker vessel” so you should be relieved your sex is not BURDENED with the responsibilities of church leadership and church ministries by God’s design. Don’t you remember what happened to Nadab and Abihu when they wanted the responsibilities of the priesthood, that God killed them and their families. It is no less a serious thing for women to want the leadership and ministry God committed to only men. You bring divine judgment and condemnation upon yourself because you choose to not obey God’s design. What faults you see, help the men to overcome and let the judgment be upon those men. Stop endangering yourself.

          Likewise, ye women, be satisfied with yourselves according to knowledge, giving honour unto yourselves, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 27, 2014 at 1:22 am

            Mary, as it turned out, Jesus’ use of Jonah as prophetic of His actual three days dead in the grave not only verifies Jonah was literally under water three days and Jesus was literally three days in the grave, but since in both cases “three” was absolutely literal, therefore prophetic Scripture is to be understood literally by example time after time as especially examplified by all of the prophesies of the First Advent. You can read most of them in Matthew’s Gospel account how literally they were fulfilled. So therefore Jesus is literally going to return to this earth with His actual feet on the dirt of this earth.

            And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. {Acts 1: 10 & 11}

            come in like manner = in a visible body

          • Mary Vanderplas July 28, 2014 at 5:18 am

            That Jesus referred to the Jonah story as a sign of his death and resurrection need not mean that he viewed the story as historical report. You discount the issue of intended genre in your insistence on the historical nature of everything in the Bible.

            The point of the text in 1 Peter 3 is that Christian husbands are not simply to conform to the cultural expectations of male dominance, but are to treat their wives with consideration and honor as coheirs of God’s gracious gift of life in Christ. God’s will for the relation between men and women is full equality and partnership, not men in a dominant role, not men only assuming the responsibilities of leadership. And exactly how is the fact that women and men are anatomically different relevant to this discussion???

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2014 at 2:11 am

              Mary, I am surprised you don’t know that a uterus and boobs add to this discussion a whole life cycle responsibility that is NOT common to man, thus making the female experience far more unique than the male experience, and far more amazingly confusing. That’s why your sex is disqualified from pastoral church leadership responsibility. Your sex is hormonally conflicted. You’ll be less conflicted if you’ll get BEHIND your men instead of trying to lead them. God did NOT change the order of the sexes at the Cross; His creation was perfect. You’re a helper, so get to it: follow your men, support them.

              • admin July 29, 2014 at 5:26 pm

                I’ve often found irony in the common conception of the word “helper” as it is applied to a woman/wife in relationship with her man/husband. It could really be argued (although I’m not actually making the case, just pointing out that a case could be made) that of the two sexes, the male, not the female was the one who needed the help. And the female, not the male, was the one able to give help.

                • Stephen Helbig July 29, 2014 at 7:28 pm

                  Therefore I take pleasure in weakness in insults in hardship in persecutions and difficulties for Christ when indeed I might be weak then strong I AM (2Cor. 12:10)

                  We are the bride ~ (Rev. 21:21) I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,
                  prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. …

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2014 at 8:45 pm

                  Thank you, Alice; now if only Mary will get willing to be the helper of her men.

                  • Mary Vanderplas July 31, 2014 at 5:06 am

                    “My men” are not unenlightened dolts. They know enough to treat me with respect as their equal – for the sake of true relationship as God intended and the full humanity of both me and them, given to us by the Creator.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 28, 2014 at 6:10 pm

            Mary, AS UNTO THE WEAKER VESSEL is in the text and you are disregarding what it means. Your anatomical difference provides you with different percentages of hormones that affect your reasoning capabilities making you unfit for pastoral leadership responsibilities of Jesus’ church. Don’t you see that you can’t even get the interpretation of Galatians 3: 28 correct? That goes all the way back to Eve eating the forbidden fruit. You’re a daughter of deceived Eve just like Alice is.

            • Mary Vanderplas July 30, 2014 at 5:03 am

              Christian husbands are here enjoined to treat their wives not just on the basis of cultural norms in which women were considered of weaker status, inferior to men, but on the basis of the fact that they are coheirs of the gift of life. This is the point of the text. In the first-century world in which the author wrote, women were considered morally and intellectually inferior to men – weaker vessels. This view is not reflective of the status of women in the eyes of God.

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 30, 2014 at 1:07 pm

              Mary, why are there separate divisions in body-building competions separating women from men if women are equal to men? The world recognizes the difference between men and women and holds men to a higher standard, so why can’t you? That higher standard means women are recognized as the weaker vessel in multiple areas, even beyond the mere physical. You continue to fight against God’s desiign for your gender and that’s sinning on your part, dear Mary, so repent of your self-imposed dissatisfaction and get right with God by accepting your place of submission to male dominance. Why do you want to keep sinning and rebelling against God? Do you like wallowing in the misery of dissatisfaction? Continuing in sin is continuing in misery. Believe the truth of male domination as God’s design and you’ll be a happier person, dear Mary, because then you’ll be living in truth. It is a whole lot happier and satisfying life when you submit to God’s standard since He knows what is best for the persons He designed. You will function the best when you conform to God’s design for which He made you. He made you to be a helper to men whom He made to lead you. That’s His creative order which the Gospel didn’t change.

              Likewise, God created the human race to be heterosexually happy, so homosexuality is sinful rebellion against God’s design. God is justified in destroying “gays” with physical death and hell fire damnation unto everlasting torment. Since they are a threat to society, so human government is justified in executing “gays” or even just exterminating them. They’re miserable people that need to be made “straight” by the Gospel, but if they would not, then they need to be killed. I’m willing to do the job.

              So, Mary, your sin of sexual-equality is equal to the sin of homosexuality.

              • Mary Vanderplas July 31, 2014 at 5:07 am

                That men and women are different does not mean that they are not equal. Equality has to do with status and rights and responsibilities (as free adults), not with anatomy or sexuality. God’s design from the beginning is that woman and man be related as a fellowship of equals under God, mutual partners in life.

              • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2014 at 5:32 pm

                Wrong, Mary, about status, rights, responsibilities. Women are forbidden the pastorate in the Pastorial Epistles and are silenced in other epistles. They are that different from men by God’s design that God, Himself, had to put ths clear teaching in His Holy Bible for you and all women to read that God, Himself, forbids you, and every woman, to be a pastor. Eve was deceived and likewise are you demonstrating the same WEAKNESS toward being doctrinally deceived.

                The NLT reads Genesis 3: 16 “And you will desire to control your husband, but he will rule over you.” That was Eve’s sinful nature that you have inherited: your gender impulsively wants to dominate men at every turn. God warned Eve of this weakness in her character. It is sin to want the pastorate, Mary, for all women because God limited it to men when He breathed the Pastoral Epistles to Paul to write it down in black and white for all women to see and obey. You seek to “skirt” God’s written word when you should obey “thus saith the Lord.” Don’t you know how much that makes you stink in the Lord’s nose?

                • Mary Vanderplas August 1, 2014 at 5:29 am

                  Genesis 3:16 is descriptive, not prescriptive: an announcement of the consequences of sin. That man will rule over the woman is seen as a consequence of sin, contrary to God’s intention in creation, which is that they be related to one another as a fellowship of equals under God. Nothing is said in Genesis 1:27 about differences meaning inferiority-subordination of the woman. What is said is that God made humankind male and female – giving them both full humanity such that they are equals, mutual partners in life. Sexual hierarchy is not the will of God.

                  That women were prohibited from holding leadership positions and were silenced (though not totally) in the early church reflects the fact that the cultural milieu was patriarchal. It does not reflect the will of God for women – which is that barriers are removed and the full humanity and equality with men are recognized and lived out.

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 2, 2014 at 1:52 pm

                  Mary, Christ is ascended up into heaven and is seated in His Father’s thrown. The Acts through the Epistles and The Revelation have been written by God to explain how the Cross work affects His saints. That instruction includes the present submission of women to men and the fact that although saints have a new heart they still have not had the old sin nature {OSN} removed from their bodies by that salvation which is present. Because of the OSN women continue to desire to rule men contrary to the present will of God in this dispensation. Remember not all women are saints and those that are not saints certainly are ruled by their OSN because they don’t have a new nature which is only had by the regeneration of salvation, in other words, being born again, the conversion experience of getting saved.

                  The differences between men and women should be self-evident, Mary, so why aren’t your eyes open to them? Because you refuse the Pastoral Epistles since you are ruled by your OSN which is not subject to God. You need to die to self to have the victory. Only saints die to self, sinners don’t. You should read Alexandria’s last very long post in which she describes her passionate separation from this world UNTO Christ that she might truly be IN Christ {August 1, 2014 at 8:46 pm Lanny; My spiritual experiences}.

                  • Mary Vanderplas August 3, 2014 at 5:55 am

                    “No longer male and female” Paul says, meaning that in this new life in Christ the old social distinctions no longer count before God, that in Christ the true fellowship of man and woman that God intended when he created humankind in his image has been restored and men and women can live as equal partners. This is the will of God for the saints; putting off the old nature means renouncing male supremacy and domination (given by tradition), renouncing false stereotypes, renouncing exploitation and deprecation of the other sex. Putting on the new nature entails embracing the other as an equal partner, sharing together the responsibilities of life, acknowledging and living in mutual dependence.

                    “Dying to self” does not mean female subordination. In Christ both women and men are free. Dying to self involves being wholly committed to Christ’s way in the world – a life of self-giving love for others.

                    You haven’t responded to my question about why you regularly engage women in theological discussion while at the same time asserting (hypocritically or stupidly) that women are incapable of reasoning. I’m done reading and responding to your fundamentalist crap.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert August 4, 2014 at 12:13 am

                    Mary, dying to self DOES mean female subordination in your your case. That’s the only way you will ever obey the Pastoral Epistles. However like I wrote only saved people have died to self, which means you first need to get saved. You can’t get saved without an historical literal interpretation of the Holy Bible.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 5, 2014 at 5:22 am

                      Does a “historical literal interpretation of the Holy Bible” include interpreting Galatians 3:28 for what it plainly says: namely, that gender divisions have been abolished in the church? Probably not, since such an interpretation doesn’t fit your idea of what the text “must” say (never mind what it plainly does say) in order to support your view that the hierarchical, patriarchal social structures of the first-century Greco-Roman world reflected in some parts of the New Testament are the will of God for the role of women in the church and society.

                    • admin August 5, 2014 at 9:25 pm

                      🙂 <--- me Why? Because you said, "I’m done reading and responding to your fundamentalist crap." Lanny is good at eliciting a response.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 12:06 am

                      Mary, Alice is smiling at you because you can’t resist my baiting. Thanks, Alice.

                      Mary, sometimes you get SO close, especially when you had begun to insist upon understanding the text as the writer meant it to be understood in his culture. I think you fail to notice the nobility many women had in the Greek and Roman empires that is attested in the New Testament. That was their culture, not the result of Christianity. In fact the abuse of that cultural benefit resulted in the tongues abuses in the Corinthian church by women thinking they were hyper spiritual if they spoke in tongues. That’s what the Holy Spirit had to rebuke by Paul’s pen and resulted in silencing women in the church meetings. In order to prevent confusion and for the maintaining of order in the meetings the Holy Spirit put male leadership over the women. That’s God’s will in this matter and you must obey it and stop using an early text incorrectly. Galatians 3: 28 makes all believers equal in worth and respect, not in leadership responsibilities. You must put the whole of Scripture to the test, not a short text removed from its context of the whole New Testament. You should know better than to separate one Pauline text from all the other Pauline texts. Your insistence of the abolution of gender divisions is as stupid as insisting that Paul relapsed from his supposed vision in the later epistles. That’s a very dumb reconciliation of the texts. The best reconciliation is one of individual worth equality without leadership equality. Mary, not everybody is a leader, you must know that, but everybody is equal in worth: Jesus died for everybody.

                      It was shamefully written in Bible history that Israel was governed by women and children. The USA has come to its shame via marketing so that its economy is governed by the spending of women and children. Men no longer hold the purse strings of America.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 6, 2014 at 5:08 am

                      What can I say? Fundamentalist crap heaped upon fundamentalist crap – it’s hard, theologically-moderate mainline Protestant that I am, to refrain from reacting.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 7, 2014 at 5:17 am

                      That there were women of higher standing in first-century society has nothing to do with anything. The fact is that Greek and Roman society was structured along patriarchal lines, with women being dominated by men and having inferior status in relation to men. Women in the Hellenistic world were drawn to Christianity likely for one reason that it offered a chance for attaining greater respect and influence than they could attain in society.

                      There is no evidence to support your contention that “this cultural benefit resulted in tongues abuses in the Corinthian church by women thinking they were hyper spiritual…” Most of the Corinthian Christians were not of high standing by the standards of the world (see 1:26). In regard to the silencing of women by Paul, contrast the words in 1 Corinthians 14:33b-36 with 11:2-16, where it is assumed that women are permitted to lead in prayer and preach in worship. (Many scholars think that the verses in 1 Cor. 14 were added later, that they are not authentically Paul.)

                      Galatians 3:28 is a clear affirmation of the full equality of male and female in Christ. There is nothing of your silly “equal but unequal.” There is only the ringing affirmation of no longer any gender divisions by virtue of God’s act in Christ and the new community created in him. You twist and distort the text to suit your need for sexual hierarchy. You subordinate it to later texts, ignoring (or distorting) that the equality of men and women is affirmed in the creation narrative in Genesis and in the lifestyle of Jesus. You “reconcile” the texts by forcing some stupidity into Galatians that the author never intended. And you claim to hold a “high view” of the Bible. What a joke…..

                      Thank you for interpreting Alice’s statement for me. Lacking in a penis and balls as I am, I wasn’t able to figure out for myself what she was saying.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 2:32 pm

                      Mary, why is it shameful for a man to have long hair? { Corinthians 11:2-16} This very text shows the superiority of the male gender.

                      Verse 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 6:14 pm

                      Mary says Women in the Hellenistic world were drawn to Christianity likely for one reason that it offered a chance for attaining greater respect and influence than they could attain in society. Dear woman, that’s the WRONG reason to heed Christianity. Christianity has the only SOLUTION for the SIN problem which condemns man before God. The issue is the everlasting salvation of the whole being of the person, not gender emancipation. What a pitifuly low view of Christianity you have, Mary, if that is the main reason why you became a minister for its respect and influence, never mind the salvation of souls? That’s hypocrisy. That explains much about you.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 8, 2014 at 5:36 am

                      There is tension in the text. Paul seems to affirm female subordination and inferiority in verses 7-9. But in verses 11-12, he points to a more egalitarian relationship, consistent with his insight in Galatians 3:28 of the full equality of the sexes. It can’t be argued that Paul here affirms unequivocally the superiority of men.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 8, 2014 at 5:37 am

                      I was responding to your comments about the “cultural privilege” of women in the first-century Hellenistic world – making the point that, contrary to your contention about women having it made, they in fact had little influence and therefore would have been likely to gravitate to Christianity because it offered greater freedom and opportunity for women to fulfill their potential. I did not say or imply that the motive for embracing Christian faith is to attain worldly status. You twist my words in a feeble effort to detract from your own mistaken ideas about the place of women in the first-century world, your own glaring lack of knowledge about the cultural background of the New Testament.

                      Regarding the gospel and gender emancipation, the issue is not simply the “salvation of souls” in isolation from the realities of life in the world. The issue is the emancipation of persons whereby their full humanity is restored and true fellowship with others is made possible.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 8, 2014 at 3:13 pm

                      Mary, {1 Corinthians 11: 7} For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

                      There’s a very big difference between #1 the image and glory of God and #2 the glory of the man. “Tension” just doesn’t cut it, poor girl. Face reality. What Paul SEEMS to affirm, he DOES declare by the Holy Ghost inspiration of God.

                      You think 11 & 12 support equality, but he returns in 13 – 15 to further 7 – 9 subordination/inferiority. Don’t you think you are taking 11 & 12 right out of its context to misinterpret it according to what you prefer it to mean in order to justify your erroneous Galatians 3: 28 interpretation? The conclusion follows the “but” in verse 12: all things of God, NOT equality. God said he (the man) is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

                      Mary needs to bow to “all things of God” and take her proper place under her men.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 9, 2014 at 5:13 am

                      I’m interpreting verses 11 and 12 for what they say, not for what I want them to say. “As the woman is not without the man, so the man is not without the woman” means that women and men are mutual partners. “As the woman is of the man, so the man is through the woman” means that they are equal before God; both owe their existence to the other and both come from God the Creator (“all things are of God”). Nothing is said or implied here about female subordination.

                      “My men” relate to me the way Jesus related to women – i.e., as being fully human and equal in every way to men. There is no over-under, but a fellowship of equals, as God intended from the beginning.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 9, 2014 at 2:33 pm

                      Mary, three times you used equal, and once each subordination and over-under. You’re obsessed with proving equality when the text {11 & 12} is about their origin, or as you put it, their existence, NOT equality of responsibility. That’s ALL those two verses say.

                      Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

                      ORIGIN IN THE CONTEXT OF CREATION. God made them male and female; and the creation text places the woman as the man’s HELPER, equal in worth, but not responsibility as 1 Corinthians 11: 3 specifies.

                      But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

                      God specifies a hierarchy and it is wrong to try to interpret 11 & 12 contrary to it, especially when it is the context specifying the woman keep her head {scalp} covered to SHOW that submission. Those two verses do not introduce an exception, because the next three entreat the mind to consider the nature of the matter. God instructed the human conscience to feel the shame and glory of long hair; shame for the man, but glory for the woman. Her long hair, being her glory, is also her sign of submission to the man. That is the NATURE God put between men and women. If you really want to believe in equality, then keep your hair short in a manly fashion; and I am not meaning the longer popular styles of today, which are shameful for men who have given up the symbol of their God-given headship over the woman. He is to rule over her, not the reverse. God rules over the man, the man rules over the woman, the woman rules over the children.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 10, 2014 at 5:32 am

                      These verses speak of mutual dependence and equality. That both women and men come from the other implies that neither is greater than the other. The thought seems to be that lest a man think he’s greater because, according to the creation narrative, the first woman came from the man, he should remember that he, a man, along with all other men, was born of a woman. Thus, neither men nor women can boast of primacy or independence.

                      The word for “help” in Genesis 2 carries no thought of subordination. It is never used elsewhere to refer to a subordinate. It is even used sometimes of God himself (Psalm 121:1, 2). What is emphasized here is that the woman is like the man, his equal, and fully adequate to be his partner – not his servant, his “little helper.”

                      No; “God” doesn’t specify a hierarchy. Some texts affirm (or seem to affirm) sexual hierarchy – reflecting the traditional teaching of Judaism. Such is the case with 1 Corinthians 11:3 and 7-9, (though it’s peculiar, if hierarchy was the intent of verse 3, that Paul would put the God-Christ relationship at the end of the list, not at the beginning, where it should be given the supremacy of God and Christ.) Even here, though, there is tension, given that verses 11-12 affirm the mutuality and equality of the sexes. That the following verses speak of nature teaching that women should wear their hair long and men keep theirs short – reflecting Paul’s view of what was natural, i.e., what seemed natural to him in his cultural setting – does not invalidate what is said in 11-12 about equality. Evidently, Paul, the rabbi who had become a devoted follower of Christ, had mixed thoughts about the relationship of the sexes, being influenced as he was by both the traditional teaching of Judaism and the way of life of Jesus.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2014 at 7:30 pm

                      Mary, do you think it is NATURAL for men to wear their hair longer than most women today? Do you think it is NATURAL for women to wear their hair as short as most men wear their hair short or shorter?

    • admin July 25, 2014 at 4:52 pm

      Williams said that God speaks through the Bible, His Spirit to our spirit, preaching, teaching, prophecy, open and closed doors, pastors, teachers, elders, and wise counsel (2-3 witnesses). He added that God can use these things to speak, but that we should use discernment to know if the message coming through these sources is from God (1 John 4:1). Throughout the sermon Williams allows for the possibility that the message we hear may or may not be God speaking. But when he gets to this point in the message where he addresses what is NOT the voice of God, he doesn’t take the same approach. He doesn’t allow for the possibility of exception to the “That’s Not God” list. I think that hearers who take this at face value are unwittingly becoming spiritually handicapped. I can’t speak for everyone, but in my experience, times of anxiety, exhaustion, and unsettledness are often directly correlated with the voice of God urging me away from or toward a person, accepting or rejecting an idea, initiating or discontinuing some action, and the like. If I were to dismiss Him because of the criteria set by Williams, I would become like a sheep without a Shepherd. I agree with a lot of what he says in his sermon, but his That’s Not God list near the end of the sermon sets off my bullshit alarm. I agree with what you wrote, “God’s will for those whom he loves not being that we burn ourselves out or live in a state of turmoil trying to do everything (or trying to do something that doesn’t fit with who we were created to be).” And I also agree there’s a difference between being burned out and poured out. Perhaps this is what Williams means to say. But it is not what he communicates.

      • admin July 25, 2014 at 5:09 pm

        Oh and one more thing… The sermon title is “Being Led by the Holy Spirit,” which lends itself to the idea that the we follow His lead, even when it’s terribly uncomfortable to do so. In effect, Williams is saying to follow the Spirit, unless you feel anxious or unsettled, or until you get tired of following. That’s probably not what he intends to say (wouldn’t it be nice if Williams put in his two cents in the comments section?!), but unfortunately in sermon delivery, what he intends to say amounts to very little, and what he actually says matters most.

        I sent Williams a message on Facebook with a link to the blog, so maybe he will clarify.

      • Mary Vanderplas July 26, 2014 at 5:58 am

        What you say about God speaking through experiences of unsettledness-anxiety-exhaustion to move or change us in some way makes sense, though I think that the final goal is not exhaustion, etc. but a sense of peace. It makes sense that you would have a problem with the idea that these things that Williams names as “not the voice of God” are always clear indicators that the voice that is heard is other than God’s voice. I agree that there can be exceptions and that not to acknowledge this is to close oneself off to hearing God’s voice. Thanks for explaining what led you to write the blogs in response to this sermon.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 26, 2014 at 4:16 pm

        Alice, your “alarm” as per the word you use to describe it proves just exactly what you are. You lack what it takes to utilize 1 John 4:1. Why haven’t you learned to avoid vulgarities? God’s saints are not vulgar. What then are you? You no longer are wearing your disguise. You are obvious in what you are. Why can’t you see that?

        • admin July 26, 2014 at 4:51 pm

          I’ll take that last bit as a compliment.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 27, 2014 at 1:31 am

            obviously vulgar is NOT a compliment

            You’re unduly crude, just like whores who don’t care, and now I know, because the one who was in my house and has now relapsed doesn’t care.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2014 at 3:06 pm

    Alice, 40 years in wilderness wandering was NOT exhausting. Rather it was exciting to see that their clothing never wore out, water came out of the Rock, Manna and quail fell from heaven daily, and they built the Tabernacle, all the while being shaded by God’s pillar of cloud during the day and warmed by His pillar of fire at night. Complainers like you were dying on the left and on the right and just like you they never noticed they were under the sentence of death. What terrific theological lessons those whose eyes were open to see it learned of God’s glory. Why don’t you focus on those whose eyes were opened yet they were not permitted to enter the promised land because their tribal leader’s lack of faith grouped them among those who would die in the wilderness. Only Joshua and Caleb escaped death in the wilderness. I think also your lack of faith makes it impossible for you to see how allegorically fitting their wilderness wanderigs reflect the life of God’s church throughout the centuries. Your negativity continues as Joshua leads the conquest of the promised land by a new generation because you fail to see their new birth is reminiscent of God’s requirement of entering His heavenly kingdom.

    Where’s your insights, Prophetess Alice? I seriously doubt you are of God; you look more like Satan’s prophetess seeking to destroy what Jesus is building.

    • admin July 25, 2014 at 5:47 pm

      “Where’s your insights, Prophetess Alice? I seriously doubt you are of God; you look more like Satan’s prophetess seeking to destroy what Jesus is building.” <--- This is why you so often get a non-response from me, Lanny. May God pour out His love in your heart. God bless you. Your zeal is admirable. I pray for you sometimes.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2014 at 8:02 pm

        Sometimes, only sometimes. That’s the best Satan’s prophetess can do. You think I should love you for tearing down Jesus’ institutional churches? You think I should love a bitter heretic? You should love the church for rebuking your heresy. You should learn something and get straightened out in doctrine and practice; then return to the church and participate in the Gospel.

  • Stephen Helbig July 22, 2014 at 9:20 am

    (Psalm 130:5) I wait for the LORD, my whole being waits, and in his …
    I wait for the LORD, my whole being waits, and in his word I put my hope. … I wait
    for the LORD, my soul does wait, And in His word do I hope. …

    p.s. ~ For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it hasteth toward the end, and shall not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not delay.

    p.s.s. ~ Rally To bring together ~ instead of taking an “either/or” approach, we take an “AND” approach 🙂

    p.s.s.t. ~ assigning the cause why it ought to be committed to writing: because its fulfilment belongs to the future. ~ “Have fun making books,” she wrote ~ Living epistles

    • Alexandria July 24, 2014 at 11:01 am

      Alice;

      For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but Righteousness, and Peace, and Joy in the Holy Ghost. The Kingdom of God has come and is within those who have been graced with their salvations at this time:

      While you are down, here’s a good video that explains what Jesus has come to do within a people to prepare them to be ready: Those that have received Jesus within them can now walk in these Kingdom fruits and know that we are led by His Spirit: Jesus is indeed come in flesh to do a work that only He can do:

      This is a very good; video(Below) from Alan Hess from Faith North Carolina, He speaks of this separation that happens within; the man of sin “the old man” is separated from the Christ that we have become: I can completely relate to what he says, as Jesus has come within a people to make war on sin, as we are then established in His righteousness, but it is through Judgement:

      It is only in and by the S/Word of the Lord cutting asunder Bone from Marrow and Spirit from Soul that causes this division(separation) from within, otherwise the Word of God will just remain head knowledge and nothing more:(a Tare, that does not produce the much needed fruit): But for the wheat to produce much desired fruit; Jesus came not to bring peace but a S/Word, to sift us through, to tear us down FIRST, THEN to build us up in Him, the Only Begotten Son of God, so we too can have the same life as He, to even establish us in His Kingdom that is not of this world: Destruction comes before building:

      You mention much of what is written here on your site:

      *****I am what I am by the GRACE of God*****:
      More grace is given us to come into who we are in Christ after we have received our salvation for those who go onto Know the Lord; to become as He: Even for rewards above our base salvation, to have a better and greater Resurrection; For even as the stars differ in their GLORY so shall we:
      Romans 1:17

      For therein is the Righteousness of God revealed from Faith to Faith: as it is written, The Just(Righteous) shall live by Faith:
      2 Cor 5:21

      For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be MADE THE RIGHTEOUSNESS of God in Him.

      Jesus is the FULFILMENT of the Law and the Prophets; even as Moses and Elijah was with Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration as a fulfilment of the Law and the Prophets: Therefore; those who are in Christ is MADE a new creature after a new order: His righteousness is revealed to us through judgement as we go from Faith to Faith to be as He, even as we behold Him to be, for only then we can see and truly know that our own righteousness is as filthy rags, and then do we turn from all unrighteousness(Lawlessness) from within to Him:

      1 Cor. 13:12 For now we SEE through a glass, DARKLY; BUT THEN FACE TO FACE: now I KNOW in part; but then shall I KNOW even as also I am KNOWN.

      Workers of Iniquity(lawlessness), is unrighteous in all of their ways, not one is good: In and by their own acts(works) do they DO for God what they think will be pleasing to Him, (Religion); through self effort in and by their own strength even: God said not by Power or by Might(Strength) but by My Spirit:

      Only Christ(The lawful one) is good, Jesus came within a people to make war on sin, even as Alan Hess testifies to (Video Below) A MUST SEE!!!: Holy Spirit within us convicts us of sin so we turn from our wicked ways to the righteousness of God in Christ from within; even as God writes His Laws on our hearts, and minds and causes us to walk in all of His Ways; but not before we are broken to shivers and then built up in His Laws and Ways through the Word of the Lord from within: Then we too become the Word become flesh, even as it was with Jesus:

      Yet as this process is going on from within, the S/Word of the Lord cuts asunder Bone from Marrow and Spirit from Soul as our God establishes us in His Word within, even to confirm us, and will complete all that He started as we remain with Him, then when all is said and done, we can no longer waver but remain steadfast to the end:

      For when our hearts wants to do what is right, but our members remain in sin, then is there no condemnation to them In Christ, then are we Justified, because our members remain in sin(subjected to the lawless one) even though our hearts desires the laws and ways of our God:

      So because of this NOW separation (division) that has been created within through this war on sin(the lawless one), from the Christ(Righteous one) that we have become: This is a true struggle within for ones that are MADE to be the Righteousness of Christ as we go from Faith to Faith to full maturity even to be just as He, therefore is God’s grace sufficient to sustain us to the end:

      ***Even as Paul testifies to; Romans 8:1-4 ***

      1)There is therefore now NO CONDAMNATION to them which are IN Christ Jesus, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT.
      2)For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
      3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
      4) That the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law might be fulfilled in us, WHO WALK NOT AFTER THE FLESH, BUT AFTER THE SPIRIT:.

      This war is evidence that salvation has come to those who are IN CHRIST, we start to BEAR FRUIT UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS even as we completely agree with God in what is right: Then we too can truly see that not one is good, no; not one! we all are worthy of death, that apart from the blood of Christ there is no redemption to be redeemed back to God and MADE to be right, even as we (the first fruits) continue onto KNOW Him:

      We must be cleansed from all unrighteousness(lawlessness) otherwise do we remain in our filth and can not enter into the promise Land, the eternal city of the Lord’s, where only the righteous can enter in; even as is written:

      We GO from Faith to Faith and from Glory to Glory as we grow to maturity, so then we too can see our Father as our own reflection because we too are MADE into His Children after His image and likeness, having forsaken all others for Him, becoming One with the only begotten Son even having no life apart from Him:

      For then do we see His reflection looking back at us as we become One with Him, then there is no more division, because ***Christ is not divided***: We become united in the same mind and heart through the life of Christ as we forsake our natural man in it’s beastly nature that can not Know God:
      Then when we mature, the man of sin(the lawless one) is put under the feet of the Christ we have become, so that we can no longer sin:

      1 Cor. 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

      Yet because we know that all is saved, then we know this is NOW for our own growth as we can NOW relax and rest in Him: Not one is lost! all are saved and will eventually also come into their salvations: Many need to lose their lives to have life; even as is written: Only because they love their own lives in this world; they remain very much respecters of persons, their love is wayward and perverted as they remain their own judges on who is deserving of their love:

      Some can speak a good game, but they can not do what they know to do, because it is not in man, the nature of man is fallen and all will continue to fall until there be a division(Separation) from him within, from that man of sin(the lawless one) who sits in these temples showing himself to be god, to the Christ(lawful one’s) life that we have become:

      Only then are we MADE Workers of Righteousness, because it is no more us(The lawless ones) to live, but Christ( the lawful one), the Man of Sin is no more, once Christ manifests His life forth for us who have become as Him:

      Therefore; even as He is in this world so too are we:
      We too become the Words that we speak as the ***Word manifested Flesh***
      ( The messenger becomes the life of the message), for then we too can only testify to The Life of Christ that we have become from within for those who have entered into day 3, ***I am the life***,
      through the ***Word of Life***, NOW to become the testimony Of Jesus Christ: To Live is Christ!!!

      Those in Christ, sees every one in the same boat; “All have sinned and fall short(are left wanting) of the Glory of God”: NOT ONE IS GOOD; not even a baby, because that child will grow up to be just as the parent tree( A worker of iniquity), A lawless one in accordance to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil: One that remains separated from God, because they have not been brought into their salvations at this time: NOT ONE IS GOOD!!! their fruit is rotten to the core, because they are born into the sin that be of this world:

      God sees even a baby for what it will be, knowing the end from the beginning, therefore, even a baby that came from the beast is still a beast, 666: carnal man in spirit, soul and flesh, a 100 fold beast:

      But destruction comes before restoration, and that is why man is handed over to be destroyed before restored, listen to this video, and see a thing; the good news for all in the end:

      Alan Hess – Eternal Torment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPWrpdrT56s

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2014 at 2:59 am

        Alexandria, you just ramble all over the place with religious talk without making any sense. If you don’t get to believing the right stuff, Eternal Torment will be yours forever. This is serious stuff and you need to get it right. Right now you’re looking like burning in hell without remedy.

        • Alexandria July 25, 2014 at 5:12 pm

          Lanny:
          Been there done that, and the fires were indeed hot as hell and I sought death; but all I got was mercy: Go figure; Jesus even saved a wretch like me:

          But even more then that, because I was already dead in my sins and trespasses and could not even get myself out of a wet paper bag; He gave me His life for mine: Jesus actually manifested His life to me that I became One with Him in exchange for my Life: Who would have thought of such a thing was possible with God???

          O God is way more then we can ever think or imagine: Love you Lanny, you and Elijah are very much alike, (I Know Why); hey Lanny I have been sneaking in here on and off now for 2 yrs. and you do have all P’s and Q’s in order, but you are lacking one thing, Mercy:

          But don’t be concerned, Jesus has even that covered and I am here now to tell you Lanny, even I was wrong: I truly thought I was going to burn in hell forever without parole: Only because others had told me that, so I did fear God greatly indeed, and asked Him to have mercy on me and to just to destroy me, that I be no more:

          But now here I am with a testimony that He gave me through repentance: Thank-you Lanny for your heart felt concern, Love and Hugs Alexandria:

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 27, 2014 at 3:33 am

            Alexandria, maybe you wrote a bit more understandably to me, but below to Alice you rambled on without much continuity and understandability that I can see. You sure are a flakey chic and your chic talk I don’t get and maybe am not supposed to get. At best I think you wrongly got in agreement with God saving everybody contrary to Jesus’ words in Matthew 7: 13 & 14.

            Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

            Alexandria, if you don’t get that right, you’re going to burn in hell and there’s no two ways about that. You gotta believe the right thing or you end up in hell for ignorance of the truth. I mean when Jesus says “many” He means many go to hell and when He says “few” He means few go to heaven, actually the new creation of heaven and earth. You need to get undeceived, dear girl. These people on this site are all wrong and are the devil’s children leading people to a false hope so that they believe the wrong things and burn with the devil in the Lake of Fire. Satan wants to take you with him into the fire because he hates God and wants to destroy God’s creation. They teach on this site that people can believe unto salvation even after they physically die, yet there’s no such thing as that expounded anywhere in the Bible. The Bible says NOW is the day of salvation. Now in this mortal life only is the only hope of salvation given in the Bible. Jesus died for the sins people commit in this life. Jesus didn’t die for angels’ sins. No demon’s sins were born in His body on the tree. 1 Peter 2: 24 & Hebrews 2: 16 The Gospel was never preached to angels or demons or to Satan, himself. No invitation was ever given to them to be saved. Yet these people on this site believe that even Satan and his demons will be saved ages after the Great White Throne judgment results in human beings being thrown into the Lake of Fire where they were also previously thrown. These people say the fire purifies them so that some “day” they’ll repent and confess Christ. The Bible doesn’t say any such thing, but they say it is all in the meaning of fire and brimstone. What they fail to realize is that if the fire purifies them, they do NOT need the BLOOD OF CHRIST to wash away their sins. Their analogy is the purifying of precious metals by smelting wherein the dross is skimmed off until all that’s left is pure metal. The sinner that physically dies without confessing Christ goes through the Lake of Fire until he is purged of his sins and made pure. Why then will he need the Blood of Jesus Christ? When he is purified he’ll not need to repent and confess Christ died for his sins, because being pure he will no longer have sins. What’s baffling, is they say even the Christian saint must go through the Lake of Fire since the saint when he dies had not stopped sinning totally and still had residual sins to be purged by the fire of the Lake of Fire. Of what good was the Blood of Christ then if it doesn’t take away ALL sins, past, present, and future. They really don’t believe the resurrection of God’s saints is actually incorruptible {1 Corinthians 15: 52}, that is, that the resurrection of saints instantly changes them from corruptible to incorruptible: there is no corruption of sin whatsoever in them after their immediate change. Ah ha, but these people on this site cannot tell you the chronology: they think the resurrection perhaps is after the Lake of Fire experience. They call it non-linear time. Really, when the Bible says the dead lived again: that means resurrection; and that occurs immediately before the Judgment that results in being thrown into the Lake of Fire. So how can you have resurrection BEFORE the Lake of Fire if 1 Cor. 15: 52 is incorruptible? Jesus spoke of TWO resurrections in John 5: 28 & 29 the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation. 1 Cor. 15: 52 is the resurrection of life and NOT the resurrection of damnation. The Revelation 20: 5 separates the two resurrections by one thousand years and calls 1 Cor. 15: 52 the First Resurrection. That leaves the resurrection of damnation to result in judgment before the Great White Throne which ends with all the judged people being thrown into the Lake of Fire and they are all identified as the dead. They are all the resurrected people that died without ever confessing Christ in their mortality, which the sea, death, and hell delivered up to judgment. Once judged they are thrown as trash into the Lake of Fire to burn forever. Alexandria, you’ve got to get this right otherwise you’ve got a wrong Jesus you’re trusting and that’s like trusting the devil himself. Do you think it is not in mercy I warn you and them of the consequences of this heretical site and have been for years if you’ve read my stinging criticisms: you say you’ve snuck in here over the last two years?

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2014 at 2:59 am

            Alexandria, I appreciate the affection in your salutation of Love and Hugs, but for me it is contrary to 1 Corinthians 7: 1

            Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

            Hugs require touching and when I was young I learned a rule in Bible Institute called the eighteen inch rule. Keeping it kept my virginity and even now, having the great fortune of releasing this earthly life of my wife of 39 married years to my Lord and Savour, I have my virginity restored to me again, that rule has kept me powerfully pure and bold as His witness to today.

            I hope you know it is sinful to speak of disappointing weather since it is a complaint against God, therefore the death of a spouse must be taken as God’s blessing for the remaining spouse. I rejoice in her death and my continuance in this life as though it be as any other natural event of normal living, for it surely is since both her and my lives are hid in Christ above. The adventure continues with the joy of expectation.

            Please don’t be sucked into the universalism of this blog site. To date >90% of the world’s population have died without confessing Christ and are gone to hell and will be thrown as trash into the Lake of Fire after the Judgment without remedy. Don’t be fooled into thinking they will ever get out. Such a thought is rebellion against God and abomination. >90% historically proves God doesn’t save the majority. We are in the last days and such a track record proves God doesn’t even try to save everybody. Jesus is right to have said in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 that “many” go into the broad way to destruction (hell) and “few” find the strait way to life everlasting (heaven). It is a LOVING thing to warn everybody I can, telling them they need the right Jesus or they’ll burn in hell.

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2014 at 3:29 am

              Alexandria, God has “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” {Romans 9: 22} surely means He hasn’t even tried to save them, but that He made them for His wrath upon them and His destruction of them. That’s not an easy thought to accept in our day of the prominant mindset that God is supposed to be Love, but God has also given up on some people as He said in Romans 1: 18 – 32 and He is a just Judge Who will not let anybody go unpunished. Even the believer is punished, however his punishment is given to Jesus Christ as his Substitute and the believer, himself, is not punished, instead he is justified: declared righteous.

              • Alexandria July 30, 2014 at 4:57 pm

                Thank-you Lanny for your concern, but I can only testify to what the Lord has personally done in my life and how He has dealt with me: I do not grope in the dark with scriptures that I have no clue what they truly mean: I can only testify to the Life of the Words in which they speak in and by the Spirit of the Lord from within:

                I do not agree with this universal salvation that ones teach, as to say; “we are all saved so eat drink and be merry and teach others to do the same”, even as many do not confess Jesus as Lord or is the Only way to the Father: O sure; God is all in all, but God in Christ are only for those who are granted their salvations at this time:

                No Lanny; apart from Judgement there will be no salvation on this side of the cross: It is the blood of Christ that cleanses us from all sin(unrighteousness) as we confess Jesus as our savour in and by the Holy Spirit from within; for apart from Jesus there is no salvation: Salvation is indeed a free gift, that no one can boast, therefore; those who confess Him, He will also confess:

                Yet; I have found out in and by the Lord’s dealing with me, that we are saved through Judgement for those who are to go onto know the Lord, as LORD, after their free gift of salvation: And for those that the Lord has separated unto Himself for a greater Glory Fold, these fires are needed to achieve all that needs be through the refining fire’s of the Lord:

                This is what I testify to, even as a witness to what I have been taken through: I have personally been taken through these fires for a deeper inner work that can only be done as we continue onto know the Lord, in and by His Spirit, to be conformed into His image and likeness after Him: We are to go from Glory to Glory and from Faith to Faith as we are to mature in Him: For only then can we then bear fruit unto righteousness, as we become His righteousness from within:

                Did you know Lanny that what we give up here is then rewarded back to us; and even as the stars differ in their Glory so shall we; even as is written: I gave up my Life for His, therefore, did I get His in return:

                See they overcame him(the lawless one), by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death:
                ***I overcame him(the old man of sin) by the blood of the Lamb, as I received Jesus as My Savour;
                ***Then by the Word of my testimony, as I received Jesus as My Lord;
                ***Then by loving not my life unto death, as I traded my life in for His:

                See Lanny; God is true to His word; therefore, an exchange was made, but not before I was judged and dealt with from within, even as I was taken through the fires of affliction to be rejected for His Word Sake, and not before I had my part in the lake of fire that I had to also go through:

                Apart from mercy, I would have remained and those fires that were extremely hot, but I pleaded for mercy and I got it:

                It is written; If we suffer with Him, then shall we ALSO be glorified with Him, and if we be planted in His death, we shall ALSO be raised with Him: This is what I can only testify to, being a witness to the inner working of the Lord from within this temple coming against that man of sin, to raise me up in His righteousness after Him, even as He has taken me from Glory to Glory to be as He:

                I do agree with you Lanny; that a woman is not to teach but support her man in the Lord who is given over to minister: Therefore; when the Lord has me go forth to testify to all that I have experienced in and by His Spirit within, then that is what I am given over to do: I can only witness through what I have personally been taken through:

                Thank-you Lanny, I hope you can understand that the Lord’s spirit that is within those that are His, will do a work within to make us ready to be received at His coming in the end: His word’s are indeed Spirit and Life; and this work must be done through Judgement and Mercy so when we are weighed in the balances, we will not be found lacking in righteousness and love:

                Sorry Lanny about my Hugs to you; I will take my Hugs back if they are to touchy feely for you: Mary was going to touch Jesus, but the Lord prevented her, only because He was not yet glorified, but she did anoint his head and washed His feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair: Thank-you Lanny again for your concern; In Jesus Name Alexandria:

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2014 at 9:49 am

                  Alexandria, you wrote, “not before I had my part in the lake of fire that I had to also go through.” Be careful to identify correctly the Lake of Fire in the Revelation, because it is NOT “the refining fires of the Lord” nor “the fires of affliction” common to the Christian life upon this earth. The Lake of Fire is the literal final place of those who physically died without confessing Christ, who are thrown into it AFTER the Final Judgment when heaven and earth have been dissolved and passed away before God makes all things new for His saints. The Lake of Fire is the everlasting place of everlasting torment for unbelievers and fallen angels during the eternal state.

                  Realizing you wrote, I do not agree with this universal salvation that ones teach, as to say; “we are all saved so eat drink and be merry and teach others to do the same”, these people on this blog site do not advocate eat, drink, and be merry in their sins because everybody will eventually be saved. At least I have not seen that sentiment expressed here. They are more concerned that God should not be portrayed as vengeful, but rather loving, yet they cannot seem to come to a proper balance on the subject.

                  Above, I warned you about the Lake of Fire because especially on this site their emphasis is very close to “the refining fires of the Lord” and “the fires of affliction” for the mortal Christian, ONLY that they use it as happening AFTER physical death to unbelieving sinners. I hope you see they mix together what they ought NOT. These two things are distinctly different things and cannot be equated.

                  • Alexandria July 31, 2014 at 8:02 pm

                    Lanny;
                    Do you know by experience of what you speak??? Or do you speak from what you think a thing could mean???

                    This is where the carnal man can not know of what God speaks, because man take it to mean a thing that man can understand through this world and it’s ways even as he was raised to understand a thing to be; but Jesus is not of this world or it’s ways, even as is written: The Word’s of our Lord is Spirit and Life, therefore; the carnal man can not know of what He speaks, so why are we to make God into our own image and liken Him to be as one of us, even as we strip Him down of His glory to be that of mere man, or beast:

                    Israel walked out a carnal application to all that Jesus became unto a New and Higher order: He became the fulfilment of the Laws and the Prophets, even as testified with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration with Peter, James and John as witnesses: God said; this is my beloved Son, hear ye Him, Moses and Elijah was to be no more after Jesus fulfilled all that was written of Him:

                    You say that Jesus left physically and He will return, physically, where is that written???

                    This Jesus even as you have seen Him go, so too in like manner He will return; Lanny; were you there??? what if they saw Him ascend in the Spirit as His flesh vanished, how do you know what form He ascended in??? He said to Mary, while on earth after His resurrection for 40 days, do not touch me I have not been glorified yet, but then during His 40 days here before ascending up to His Father, how was that to be when He was completely glorified; do you know???

                    What you say is pure speculation; Jesus was able to do things that we in the natural can not do: So even as they have seen Him go, so too in like manner will He return??? How so???

                    See; I do not speculate on a thing, because I was not there: Peter, James and John saw Moses and Elijah with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, how was that???

                    John on the Isle of Patmos was caught up in the Spirit, whether in the body or out he did not know??? Where did Moses and Elijah go and how??? Elijah was seen to go up by way of the chariots of heaven, could Jesus have went the same way??? Or was it that, He was here one moment and gone the next, as He just vanished into the clouds???

                    Therefore; how do you know for a surety what these fires are unless you have first hand knowledge of them, or even experienced them for yourself: Everlasting or Eternal, makes a thing to be, forever without remedy, or a quick work that needs be done within those who suffer with Him to also be glorified with Him:

                    For even as the stars differ in their glory so shall we??? How do we go from glory to glory??? And what is all involved in our growth to become just as Jesus is unto full maturity??? What is the 30, 60, 100 fold rewards and what is the cost???

                    There is a first death then judgement then a second death as we have our part in the lake of fire, for those who have to also overcome Death, Hell and the Grave as we rest in Jesus:

                    I have experienced these fires that are truly hot and from hell, they are eternal: How is it the Lazarus could even speak to the Lord as to send someone to his family to warn them of the eternal fires that he was cast into???

                    Jesus is come in the flesh to do a great work in us from within, even as the Kingdom is within: This is what causes a great separation, from that man of sin, to our new lives in Christ we have become:

                    There has to be a refining and a purging that is unto our souls for our souls to be saved alive, and that is why we are handed over to the destroyer and that is why we have our part in the lake of fire, for a greater resurrection:

                    We who are ordained to rule and reign with Jesus also must overcome all that He has overcome, we too must in Him in order to have that greater resurrection, to be even unto a greater glory fold: Jesus overcame Death, Hell and the Grave, so too must we, for those given to Him:

                    We also have to go through these fires ourselves to become a Faithful and True Witness to testify of all that we have experienced through the Word of the Lord manifested flesh, even to be worthy to stand before Our Lord at His coming; otherwise we will be found wanting when weighed in the balances: Therefore; do we endure to the end, even as we partake in the lake of fire for a greater resurrection:

                    Eternal and Everlasting are 2 different things: All the Words that Jesus speaks is Spirit and Life; Eternal even after a new order from above, therefore; because He is not of this world, all that He speaks is not of this world or it’s ways either: His Words are Eternal after the order of Melchizedek, having no beginning or end, NOW!!! even as we live in the now for those who have become One with Him:

                    My God is an eternal God, as is my Lord Jesus Christ,(God in Christ) after the order of Malchizedek having no beginning or end, He is ever present: Now is the time of salvation, He is in the Now as we have entered into time no more for those who have become One with Him, even as we have been born again from above, after the same order of our Lord:

                    The first death was through the fires of affliction, as we are rejected for the Word sake, but then the other is for our souls to come in, and I do not equate the fires of affliction as we ascend up to the 60 fold glory, with the lake of fire to ascend up all the way to the throne of God: The second death (fire) is a burning eternal fire, not everlasting as many say, but eternal that is unto our souls, even for our souls to come into a higher order for them who are brought up to the throne:

                    God said; fear the one who can cast a soul into hell, this is the lake of fire that we who are in Christ have to also have a part in for them who are destined to rule and reign with Jesus along side of Him: They are so hot and extreme that I had to have extremely hot baths so my flesh could be brought up in temperature as to not to cramp up, the hot bath alleviated the cramping in my flesh do to the eternal fires burning from within:

                    The fire of affliction is only the first death that we go through, as we are persecuted and rejected for the Word sake: But the second death is for those brought into the final purging’s and refining’s that is unto our souls that a one needs to go through the lake of fire to be made worthy to be able to stand in His presences: Why did Paul even say, work out our own salvation with fear and trembling??? Paul even knew a thing: Therefore; because these things that we are taken through are Eternal, we are NOW unto that which is after a new order for those that are In Christ:

                    Lanny; I can only testify to what I personally have been taken through: For I have learned, that all that the Lord speaks, are words that bring us who are In Christ into our inheritance NOW, but the cost is very great indeed:

                    This is where there is a great division, from those who are In Christ vs. those who are Of Christ: The life of Christ manifested flesh vs. those gifted that know not of what we speak, because gifting’s are given without repentance; they can not bear any fruit unto righteousness:

                    Thank-you Father; in Jesus name Alexandria:

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2014 at 11:52 pm

                      Alexandria, I repeat what I first wrote July 25, 2014 at 2:59 am when I first read your post. You just ramble all over the place with religious talk without making any sense. If you don’t get to believing the right stuff, Eternal Torment will be yours forever. This is serious stuff and you need to get it right. Right now you’re looking like burning in hell without remedy. You’d make a good religious con-artist back in the 1830’s just like Joseph Smith was bowling Mormons over with his religious jargon.

                      The Bible doesn’t make this distinction: those who are In Christ vs. those who are Of Christ. You judge by your own relative experience rather than by God’s infallible literal Holy Bible which is the ONLY source of Absolute Truth. You’ve changed its meanings to fit your imaginative spiritual experiences. Extremely hot baths to withstand eternal fires? That’s as looney as can be.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert August 1, 2014 at 2:56 pm

                    Alexandria asks: Do you know by experience of what you speak??? Or do you speak from what you think a thing could mean???

                    Your “form” of spirituality is a deception and you bought into it because it sounded so spiritual and such that you could experience it. Have you read Stephen and Patrick? You’re beginning to sound just like them. And just like Alice, too. You can’t seem to take the words of the Bible just plain literal. Jesus ascended to His Father’s throne in heaven from earth in His resurrection BODY with the marks of the nails in His hands otherwise Luke’s report would have detailed a difference. I hope you know Luke wrote both his Gospel account and the Acts account with many physical details. He would not have failed to tell us otherwise, especially since he detailed how heavy Jesus swea {Luke 22: 44}t was AS great drops of blood when He agonized in prayer in the garden. Luke mentioned nothing otherwise significant about Jesus as He talked with His disciples immediately before He ascended than as He ascended. There was no change in His resurrected body before or during His ascention. If you think so, you’ve been tricked.

                    Now, why don’t you be like Alice and say just because it doesn’t say so in the Bible doesn’t mean it wasn’t so. Alice said, in the face of John 17: 12 which tells us that Jesus said Judas Iscariot was lost/perished, that Jesus will save Judas later because even though the Bible doesn’t specifically say so that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. When I said Jesus pronounced Judas as everlastingly perished, she accused me of adding a meaning that isn’t there. What has she done in saying Jesus will eventually save him? That certainly is not in John 17. Alexandria, the same word “lost” in John 17: 12 is the same word “perish” in John 3: 16 meaning everlasting doom in the Lake of Fire following the Final Judgment. Since it follows the Judgment there’s no reversing it, no remedy. So Alice resorts to some fictional “non-linear” chronology to get Judas out.

                    Get your feet on the ground of reality, Alexandria. God’s Book is perfect and literal, so you need to trust it that way. To KNOW is to trust the Bible literally. It is the only Absolute Truth. Only literalness means the same thing to every different person. When you go spiritual the meaning varies according to the spiritual state of the individual, so no one has the same meaning. Absolute Truth is the SAME regardless of who reads it when.

                    Please reject spirituality and turn to no-frills Biblical Fundamentalism or you’ll be damned.

                    • Alexandria August 1, 2014 at 8:46 pm

                      Lanny;

                      My spiritual experiences all line up to scriptures, there is a work being done within for those who are given Jesus, as Jesus came to clean the inside of our cups first, then the outside will take care of itself:

                      A Jew is one inward, circumcised in the heart:

                      Luke 8:11-12 And they said one to another, Did not our hearts burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he OPENED to us the scriptures?

                      1 Cor. 15:40-44
                      There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

                      What is a spiritual Body???

                      Why are the Words of Jesus Spirit and Life???

                      Jesus said; If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you???

                      We are in this world but no longer of it??? So then why are we to remain to the things and ways of this world???

                      For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy IN THE Holy Ghost.

                      “What does *IN* The Holy Ghost mean”???

                      Matthew 8: 11-12I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob *IN* the Kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects *OF* the Kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

                      Father has taken me through sites to see if a one is operating through a gifting(Anointing) or if they are actually born again from above, and confess that Jesus has indeed come and is doing a work within them, because even as it was with Peter and Paul it is unto those who have been born from above, the evidence is a conversion done within us:

                      Peter when thouest is converted, strengthen thy brethren,

                      And then Paul said; My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you:

                      Therefore, is there a work to be done within Us, even as Paul says; to Lives is Christ!, He lives by the Faith of the Son of God; The Just shall Live by Faith:

                      The Faith of the Lord’s is an action word and comes with His works to even have a work done within those who have entered Into His rest, for them who have been born from above:

                      Yet; many are gifted, but the gifting’s are given without repentance(even from laying on of hands) and this is where many turn out to be universalist because they think that God loves them just as they are: They do not have a heart after God, but they are ones that remains of this world: They do not have a drive within their hearts to turn from all unrighteousness to the righteousness of the Lord, because they are Of the Christ; (Of the Kingdom of God) gifted through the anointing, as gifting’s are given without repentance, they do not have a heart AFTER God, AFTER the order of Malchizedek (King of Righteousness):

                      The ones that are gifted without repentance, then makes the anointing(The Christ) into a stench because they mingle it with their own understanding through their own perception that can not know God: They change the GLORY of the incorruptible God to that of man and beast because they know not God: They lack the Life of the anointing manifested to them from within because their hearts are not after God: They have an unrepentant heart that can not know God, that can not then be made conformable to His Image and likeness because they remain of this world and delight in the things that be of this world:

                      Those that are without, sees God as one of us and equate Him to be like us, His love to those that be of this world is unconditional; but to us who loves correction, it is very conditional, as He loves us to much to leave us as we are, therefore did He send His Son to redeem us back to Him:

                      For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy IN THE Holy Ghost(Anointing=Christ). The foolish and wise virgins! the foolish ran out of oil they had to go out and buy more; but the wise had enough as they continued (In the anointing), even becoming one with it’s source: The foolish were (Of the anointing) and were not prepared, that is why Jesus came when they were out, but the wise was prepared and entered in:

                      I have heard others also explain this conversion that has happened to them within, who are not gifted but actually had an encounter with the Lord and speaks of the same things that I am given over to speak, even by a change that has happened to us within, to bring us into our testimonies NOW to witness these INNER workings of the Lord’s in and by His Holy Spirit that has been done within us:

                      Therefore; the gifted ones I know,(those Of the Kingdom(Christ – anointing)) can also minister anointed words that come from His Spirit, but they themselves remain in their filth: There has been no change with them from within: They do not understand, even though they speak the Words through the Christ(Anointing), by the anointing” they remain themselves in the dark, because they have not a heart after God: So then they remain very worldly as they continue to be deceived:

                      Ephesians: 4-18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the LIFE OF GOD through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

                      For they take what they have been given and alter it to their own darkened understanding to make the anointing into a stench in the Nostrils of our God: And that is why they are cast out into a darkened state of being, because they love this world and the things that be of it:

                      That is why many came up with this universal Love that has no back bone, because they remain with those that be of this world and are taught to love others as they do themselves: But for those that love correction, they went onto know the Lord and are the true children of God:

                      We are the children of the Light, who are enlightened even by the Life of what we speak, and can only speak what we know through our own experiences from within, even as we have become a testimony to a transformation that brought us into a maturity in Him, as the Kingdom of God is within:

                      Therefore; we can not just sling scriptures back and forth to prove our point, even as the carnal man does, who can not know God, as the Words of the Lord’s are Spirit and Life: We can only minister what we actually can witness to by becoming the Life of the Words in which we have witnessed, through become One with them in the Life that they hold:

                      What I say to you is not religion, as that is just in form where a one remains in their darkened state of being, even as is written; but we become the Truth and Life of the Only begotten Son of God as we have become One with Him in His Life manifested to us, therefore do we become His testimony manifested flesh, so then even as Jesus is in this world, so too are those that are as He:

                      This is why when ones are going at each other with scriptures they are as the blind, groping in the dark because the light has not come to them, they remain children of the dark: For even though many can minister a thing, they have not become the Life of that thing, therefore; they can not witness through experiencing the life they have become from within, they can only minister from the written words on a page that has not life, therefore; remaining in a dead form(religion):

                      The scriptures apart from the Spirit to give us enlightenment is just a dead form of religion and nothing more when one quotes the scriptures and remains in the dark: They were given to witness and testify to the Life of the Only Begotten Son of God that we also have become One with Him, even as He is One with Our Father:

                      For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy IN THE Holy Ghost. (In Christ)

                      Matthew 8: 11-12
                      I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob IN the Kingdom of heaven. ***(Those In Christ)***

                      12 But the subjects OF the Kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” *(Those Of Christ)* are gifted without repentance and they can not become the righteousness of God because they are not born from above, After the order of Malchizedek (The King of righteousness); they remain in this world, of this world and can not know the Truth because the Truth is not In them, because they have not a heart after God, but one that remains of this world:

                      This is where the carnal man can not know of what God speaks, because man take it to mean a thing that man can understand through this world and it’s ways even as he was raised to understand a thing to be; but Jesus is not of this world or it’s ways, even as is written: The Word’s of our Lord is Spirit and Life, therefore; the carnal man can not know of what He speaks, so why are we to make God into our own image and liken Him to be as one of us, even as we strip Him down of His glory to be that of mere man, or beast:

                      Jesus is bringing us up hither to be One with Him, even as He is One with our Father, to be seated on the throne with Him: But man continues to bring Him down to be as one of us, that is where blindness has happened in the hearts of those who remain as the heathen of this world even though they are gifted or religious:

                      For we who are born from above are indeed after a new order, even after God’s heart; but those that remain of this world do not understand or know of what we speak, as their hearts remain in the dark:

                      Sure our lives are hid in Christ, even as it was with Paul and Jesus and others that have His life manifested to us from within, therefore; when a one was to look on us, they see no difference between us and them, the believer vs the unbeliever;(Those IN Christ vs those OF Christ or those without):

                      Man thinks us to be no different then they, just looney or crazy even as ones thought Jesus and Paul and their followers to be: But we who are IN Christ do not look upon man from the outside to see a thing, we know by the Spirit we are of, those that belong to the Lord are given over to speak the same things, I am in good company:

                      All those that spoke the Words of our Lord were considered lunatics and were hated for the Word sake: Jesus said; even as they have hated me in this world, they are going to hate you! All left Jesus but His faithful few, only because they gave up all for Him and had no where else to go; and all left Paul in the end: They left them to go back to the things that be of this world, therefore; if a one has a place to go they will indeed also leave the Lord’s Christ when it comes to the strong meat and drink:

                      For even as it was then, it is the same NOW for those IN Christ: Every generation it is the same, only those who Endure to the end are going to be crowned with the Crown of Righteousness, the mark of the High Prise for those who are IN CHRIST and have remained Faithful to Endure to the end:

                      This is where the great falling away happens, when a one can not continue onto know the Lord, but has set up camp and has remained, even as a babe or left Him for the things that be of this world:

                      Thank-you Lanny, for witnessing the Words that were brought to you, by a testimony given to me through the Life of the One who manifested His life to me; my Lord and Savour, Jesus Christ: In Jesus Name Alexandria:

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 3, 2014 at 3:17 am

                      Alexandria, it is hard reading you, but now upon rereading you a couple times I have a greater appreciation for your intensity IN Christ even though I would not use the expressions (words and terms) the way you do. I would not credit religious persons with any anointing, gifting, or even being OF anything God’s saints are of and in. There’s absolutely no doubt in my mind that genuine conversion results in an undeniably changed life that holds absolutely no fondness for this world system either in the church or outside it. Forgive me for over reacting to your difficult expressions unto my understanding, and thank you for perservering in writing such a lengthy reply. I don’t mind offending these people, but if indeed you are my sister I do not wish to be an offense, but rather an encouragement as you seem now to be to me. I do not wish to be afraid of you, but to have confidence in you. I hope I am seeing you correctly. As you can see they are annoyed with me even as you confess truth does to people like them. Thank you for your last four words of identification. Eternally Christ’s purchased possession, Lanny

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 5:41 pm

                      Alexandria, after writing my apologetic August 3, 2014 3:17 am post and reading your August 6, 2014 11:16 am post it is quite obvious you are not likely to realize the error promoted on this and Hess’s site that Sodom and Gomorrha could be restored to it former estate of wickedness. The wicked are reserved for everlasting torment, not restored for purification. I had hoped better things of you when you seemed to deny universalism which is here preached. I am in doubt of you that you have swallowed their bait. Do NOT fudge Scripture to minimize everlasting torment. ET is reality whether we like it or not. If you think otherwise you are no sister of mine. Instead you would belong to Satan as one of his daughters for denying the reality of everlasting torment. Only FEW are saved and MANY burn in the everlasting Lake of Fire in everlasting torment. Jesus said so in Matthew 7: 13 & 14. Who will you believe: Jesus or Satan?

      • admin July 25, 2014 at 5:50 pm

        Did you go to that conference? (The one Hess is at in the video)

        • Alexandria July 25, 2014 at 7:45 pm

          Alice;
          No; I do not go out to any conferences of even to fellowship abroad with others, other then by way of internet, but even as I come into this site to see what is written, to identify with what is being said and in and by what spirit, I can see then by what is revealed within me then what a one is lacking, and what spirit they are of:

          It is written we are to know man no more according to the flesh, but by what Spirit they are of: So when I am cast into become one with the same spirit that a one is operating out of and then brought out, I can see and know what kind of Spirit we are dealing with: Then Holy Spirit/ Spirit of Truth within me, takes action:

          For even though some minister the Word of God, they could be lacking in Righteousness or Love, because I could see that there is a balance, and that balance is indeed, Judgement/Mercy or Righteousness/Love:

          Therefore; when I heard Alan Hess, I knew he only experienced ministers of righteousness, who condemns all to hell without parole; only because they have half of the truth: So when He brings out the other half I could truly know this to be true, because of how our Father in Heaven has raised me:

          But then I also witnessed that, with only Love, one would love unconditionally, and see all through the eyes of mercy, and all will go to hell in a hand-basket because they have not righteousness, even as that one remains very worldly: Their Love lacks back-bone, correction through the righteousness of God:

          But then those who minister righteousness(Judgement) will indeed condemn all to hell to burn for ever and ever: So one without the other, a one is left wanting when weighed in the balances:

          So as ones matures in the Lord to become Mothers and Fathers of the Faith, only then can a one truly see that both are needed to RULE and REIGN with Jesus; a 2 fold:

          So Alan just opened up, what I was brought up by my Father in heaven to know to be so, even by experiencing what Alan speaks of personally: So I am hoping ones as Alan Hess opens the eyes to even Clyde Pilkington’s Clan, with Martin and Dan and the others and even Jacob to understand more on the ways of God that changes not:

          The Kingdom of God is in righteousness, and peace and joy IN the Holy Spirit: Thank-you Alice:

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 5, 2014 at 12:25 am

        Alexandria, Alan Hess IS preaching exactly what this site promotes and he cannot even realize that Sodom’s “former estate” {Ezekiel 15: 55} is their spiritual condition immediately before God wiped them off the face of the earth by fire and brimstone: their ungodly homosexual polutions. Do you at all think God would restore them to that same condition? Would God reverse the judgment He poured upon Sodom in Abraham’s day and return them to their same sins to the same degree of sinfulness? That’s what these people are preaching, Alexandria. The correct answer is an emphatic “Certainly not ever !!!” Their {Sodom’s} restoration to their sins will NEVER BE is a no-brainer to any student of the Holy Bible: {Jude 7} Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. That’s unrecoverable destruction, not purifying fire, Alexandria. Their confusion with the Ezekiel passage is first the failure to see Sodom as an example, picture, type of everlasting torment as per Jude 7 and the fact that even in Ezekiel’s day it hadn’t been rebuilt. The second failure is their inability to limit God’s unconditional covenant with Israel to restore THEM, and only them, to their land and blessings promised to Abraham {Ezekiel 16: 60 & 62} including their spiritual regeneration. Sodom and Gomorrha are NEVER restored, ISRAEL is restored. Only Israel is in covenant relationship with God {Ezekiel 16: 60} in this prophecy. These people fail to rightly discern the Scriptures that they might twist it to their own ends. Beware you don’t encourage them: they need strong rebuke.

        • Alexandria August 6, 2014 at 11:16 am

          Sorry Lanny; but Israel became more vial then they, and if Israel is restored then so to are those of lesser charge, because of our Lord Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross: Jesus became a none respecter of persons, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but one new man in Christ, those that are more vial will even enter the Kingdom before those who are self righteousness in their own strength: Jesus even said the tax collectors and the prostituted will enter in before them:

          It is only because once Jesus reveals Himself as the Righteous Lord and King, then we can truly see and know how filthy we have been; only then as we are judged can we fall on our faces and ask for mercy, for only then a person can know their true state of being: Otherwise we all remain in the same boat according to Jesus: Not one is good, we have all fallen short of the Glory of God:

          Therefore; I truly believe, one who is forgiven much will indeed love much, even as it was with Mary; then the greatest work can be had within those who are the most vial to now become the most precious to the Lord:

          And this is why we all need to be Judged Right, by the Lord’s Righteousness revealed within us; then and only then can we truly know our own sins, and how loathsome we have become: We can know how unworthy we are to ever be worthy to be with our Lord: Only then, when we can see and know our true state of being as His righteousness is revealed within, can we fall flat on our faces at the feet of our Lord and King, also as did Mary and wash His feet with our tears:

          I can only testify do to what the Lord had done within me, as I too had to go through His Righteous Judgement that was revealed to me within, to see how vial I also had become, only then did I know my true state of being, also to understand that not one is able to make it on their own, NOT ONE without our Lord:

          Thank- you again Lanny; But I too thought as you, only because that is what I was told, but it is a whole other thing to know by what was done within me, that I can not see man now ever being apart from also having the chance of being redeemed: I can not judge and condemn man, because of what the Lord had done in me, NOW to even come forth to be a testimony of His goodness for those who were entrenched in sin: I Love Him very much and gave my Life to Him, because I was forgiven much:

          Thank-you my Lord and savour Jesus Christ for all that you have done to redeem me back to you, you are JUST and Right; in Jesus Name Alexandria:

          • Alexandria August 6, 2014 at 1:12 pm

            Lanny;
            I just came back from my morning walk, and this came to me: Forgive my spelling error above, Vile; (NOT VIAL), and prostitute Not Prostituted: Morning coffee needed to wake up before I am able to see, but I wrote to you anyway:

            Matthew 11:23,24
            23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

            24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

          • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 8:33 pm

            Alexandria, it does not follow that which you say: Israel became more vial then they, and if Israel is restored then so too are those of lesser charge. The subject is God’s restoration of a people who are a nation. God made promises of restoration to the nation of Israel, not to the nations of the world. The no respecter of persons you reference is about individual persons, not nations. Anybody can get save by grace through faith, but only one nation will God graciously restore to faith. The rest you wrote is individualized and not applicable to Israel as a nation. Personal revelation is not a test of truth, dear Alexandria, since it varies person to person and therefore is never the same. Only the literal understanding of Scripture remains the same person to person and therefore is Absolute Truth. Judge according to the words of Scripture, not what you think God has done to you, because it is only your interpretation of your experience. A psycologist may have a different interpretation of your experience.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 6, 2014 at 4:54 pm

          Alexandria, Jude 7, Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. That’s unrecoverable destruction, not purifying fire. It doesn’t matter whether their judgment is more tolerable than any other’s, it is still condemnation resulting in the Lake of Fire everlastingly. It is true that some are more greatly tormented than others, but it still is everlasting torment nonetheless. There are degrees of torment for the wicked, dear girl, just as there are degrees of reward for the righteous; and just as rewards are everlasting, so are torments everlasting, without end. You have itching ears, poor one, and they are being soothed by liars, Satan’s children since he is the father of all lies. Listen to his words in Genesis 3: And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. {verses 4 & 5} Just like those on this site you like being among those that have this elete enlightenment which you don’t want to acknowledge brings Death upon you. You will even redefine the Second Death to make it good to you to experience. They’ve done it here on this site. You are indeed a flakey chic.

          God absolutely will NOT RESTORE SODOM TO HER FORMER ESTATE OF WICKEDNESS. It is total nonesense to think God will undo His fire and brimstone judgment. Stop being nonsensical. FORMER is in the Ezekiel text THREE times in 16: 55 for good reason. WHAT will Sodom look like if it were restore to its former estate? Use your head. The cities would look as wicked as it was the day God rained fire and brimstone upon them to destroy them. BTW that restoration would be upon this current earth in the original location of those twin cities. That would make Jude 7 a contradiction of Ezekiel 16: 55. Your answer to that would be age-during not eternal and the fire is not still burning on site; because you deliberately fail to understand an idiom correctly, since you want it to be so. It is wickedness to twist Scripture in order to deny everlasting torment as you have done. God’s judgments are NOT reversable. His restorations always BETTER the estate of those He graciously restores. When He restores Israel and Judah they will be an earthly united kingdom in the faith of Jesus Christ with their Messiah sitting on His throne in earthly Jerusalem. Do you understand what that involves for God to restore them? That’s a biggy to say the least. The nation of Israel that exists today is not that restoration which God has promised to accomplished. They are godless Jews today, but one day God will restore them to RIGHTEOUSNESS. God NEVER restores anybody to wickedness; that’s not grace in any stretch of the imagination. That’s why I say to you wake up to reality, Alexandria, God CANNOT restore Sodom to her FORMER estate of wickedness. It is contrary to His righteousness. God cannot even restore Jerusalem to her former wickedness and after all Ezekiel is a prophesy about Jerusalem if you will read the entire chapter. It is NOT about Sodom and Samaria which are used as just figures of speech and not literal cities.

          You say you don’t speak of things you don’t know by experience, so why then are you speaking of this which you haven’t Biblically understood? Hess and all others like him, even those on this site, play on your emotions and you’ve been sucked into it. WHO do you know who was saved after they physically died without confessing Christ? Who yet living do you know has beed saved and is living a saved life? See, you can know saved people in this life but not anybody that was saved in the after-life. Only in this life is a person saved: physical death is the cutoff point for this opportunity. Now is the day of salvation, never after physical death.

          (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) {2 Corinthians 6: 2}

          I know the day of my salvation was mid-afternoon on 04July1964 and I have lived fifty years of a saved life after my first twenty-two years without God and unsaved.

          • Alexandria August 6, 2014 at 10:25 pm

            Lanny;

            God CANNOT restore Sodom to her FORMER estate of wickedness. It is contrary to (((“His righteousness”))). I completely agree, so what was Sodom’s former estate before she went into become entrenched in sin, even where God had to deal with her as He did?

            Was Sodom and Gomorrah their original names or were those cities named that after the inhabitants landed there, was that their fate to be cast into such a vile state of being, even as the name implies:

            She must have started out as something of value, as I agree with what you say, she must have been righteous prior to what they have done to become so loathsome in the end, or why would God restore her:

            He says that Sodom and her daughters are MORE RIGHTEOUS then Israel?

            See even God looks to the good in them, not the sin, so what then is going on in here?
            Even Judah told His daughter in law that played the harlot, she is MORE RIGHTEOUS then he?

            Then in Hosea 1:2 it is written, something also very strange, The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

            (READ Hosea Ch.2) The Lord is the One restoring even the whore (See; He brings her into the wilderness) Why? RESTORATION!

            Song of Solomon, 8:5 Who is this that cometh up from the wilderness, leaning upon her beloved? I raised thee up under the apple tree: there thy mother brought thee forth: there she brought thee forth that bare thee. See Lanny; there is way more to this restoration thing then a one can know:

            You are very right, when you say God does not restore ones to wickedness; therefore; something else is going on here, even as God declares them “MORE RIGHTEOUS” Could it be their former state of being before the fall, as their sins is a result of the fall?

            So why is God doing this? Even having One of His own God fearing men take a whore to be His wife?

            They have been declared MORE RIGHTEOUS “BY GOD”; why? instead of God saying that they were not as wicked as you Israel:

            On another note Lanny; Eternal to me means the realm that when the veil was rent in two, that we who are In Christ have entered into, even as we have entered into His rest: Therefore; the fires that are eternal, to me was within, even as the Kingdom of God is within: So it is just a matter on how a one perceives a thing to be: Eternal torment, is when a one is handed over to Satan for a inner work to be done as He sifts us like wheat, even as we are to remain faithful through what we have been cast into:

            This is how we are converted, even as it was with Peter, and Paul they both had Satan: Even as Jesus had to also deal with Satan: Jesus said to Peter; I pray your faith fails you not, and when thouest is converted, strengthen thy brethren: Same with Paul; he also was converted and had Christ formed in him: This is why both Peter and Paul had to also strengthen their brethren; to also now help those given to them to have the same work done within them, even as we are to work out our own salvations in fear and trembling, as is written: Fear the one who can cast you soul into hell, it truly was hell with Satan: Rev.2:24

            To become a pearl of great price one has to go through very much tribulation, even great tribulation to become that pearl of great price that a one would sell all he had to have; but it took “eternal torture” to become it, but the outcome is to have Christ formed in us: Therefore Lanny; it is just our understanding do to our own experiences, that we who have witnessed what was unto us from within, can now go forth with our testimonies of these inner workings of the Lord’s Holy Spirit as we are conformed into His image and Likeness, even to become One with Jesus even as He is One with our Father:

            This has been my walk out! I can relate! As Jesus is come in the flesh, even this flesh to do a mighty work within:

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 12:25 am

              Alexandria, what is going on in Ezekiel 16 is sarcasm. There is no chance for Sodom and Samaria to be restored to her former estate of wickedness, therefore then there is no chance for Jerusalem to be restored to their wickedness. That’s how you must read verse 55. When {since it won’t ever happen} thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. It is like us saying when hell freezes over then I’ll go to Kentucky. That statement means I will never go to Kentucky and literally taken it means that since hell will never freeze over, I will never go to Kentucky. Verse 55 is NOT God’s promise to restore Sodom to any estate. It is a sarcastic statement of the impossibility of their situation. God is stating that just as FINAL as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so also shall be God’s destruction of Jerusalem’s wickedness. Their wickedness exceeds that of Sodom and Gomorrah, so therefore God is justified in whatever measures He takes toward Jerusalem to destroy their wickedness. Just because God graciously made a covenant with Abraham’s children does not mean that Sodom and Gomorrah enter that relationship also. Israel is a particular special people by God’s making and so also is Jesus’ church. Both are separate from the world of humanity and both are are minorities distinct from the rest of the world’s people. Those are two everlasting distinctions preserved in the future everlasting state of the new heavens and the new earth, because the everlasting Lake of Fire where all the wicked will be in everlasting torment is outside the new creation where only saints and angels will be. The glorious promise God is making is that of removing wickedness from Israel, His Chosen People. God makes no such promise to the world or Israel ceases to be a particular special people and so does Jesus’ church cease to be a particular special people. God is partial to His Elect, both Israel and the church. The world is not His Elect. His Elect are a minority taken out of the world.

              • Alexandria August 7, 2014 at 2:20 am

                Lanny:

                My time here 4 hrs before what is shown on this site:

                There is no chance for Sodom and Samaria to be restored to her former estate of wickedness, therefore then there is no chance for Jerusalem to be restored to their wickedness:

                As I was reading what you wrote, I could see that Israel is considered God’s covenant people as you say, and they are under the RIGHTEOUSNESS of the law according to works(Moses), parable and proverbs even a shadow of all the testifies to Jesus: God does not restore a thing to wickedness as I agree with you, but what is this that they are More Righteous then Israel?

                He says that Sodom and her daughters are MORE RIGHTEOUS then they, I can see because it is by Grace through Faith that we are saved not by works lest anyone should boast?

                Jesus came to save the lost, to give sight to the blind, to give hearing to the deaf, to heal the broken hearted, to make the lame walk, to cleanse the leper and to SET THE CAPTIVE FREE; therefore we are MORE RIGHTEOUS because it is by Grace through Faith and not by works: It because of what Jesus did, not what we could ever do, but we receive Jesus for what He has done: He went to His own but His own did not receive Him, therefore they were put on the back burner to simmer, while Jesus is now dealing with the gentiles, yet; even Israel is welcomed to receive Jesus as their Lord if that has been given to them to do:

                God declared Sodom and her daughters MORE RIGHTEOUS then Israel, only because of what Jesus accomplished to set us free, for who the Son sets free is free indeed: That is why Jesus says there is neither now Jew or Gentile, because the veil has been rent in 2 and now it is open for all to enter in, especially those who believe: Now a Jew is one circumcised in the heart, to even have a heart after God, after the order of Melchizedek(The King of Righteousness) where He writes His laws in our minds and hearts and establishes us in all of His ways that we depart not from them; all because of Jesus:

                Jesus came for the sick, not for those who have no need of a doctor, He came for the sinner to redeem us in and by His blood, to make us whole, not for those who in and of themselves are whole: Why is it that you exclude the Complete Work of Jesus and what He has done for all of humanity: In Adam ALL die EVEN SO In Christ ALL shall be made alive, but each in their own order: Therefore just because God is not dealing with All peoples now, does not mean their time of Judgement will not come: Jesus already said that not one is good, no not one: Jesus is the savour of the world:

                Lanny; you truly need to get to know Jesus for who He is and for what He has done:

                Therefore, we will all be dealt with as the righteous judge reveals His righteousness within each one of us as we are brought in, to show us how filthy we truly are, then we can all come to the knowledge of the perfect man, even as we repent from all of our wickedness and behold Him as He is, so then we all can become as He, One with the Son even as He is One with our Father:

                This again testifies to what the Lord had done in me, He revealed His righteousness that I could truly know my wickedness and because of that, I was able to truly repent, because I saw how unworthy I was to be in His presence: Therefore; having now His Righteousness manifested to me from within, makes me even MORE RIGHTEOUS then those who are of works: Remember the work needs to be done within the cup first, then the outside will take care of itself:

                Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

                Where sin abounds grace much more abounds, this is why Jesus is going for the most vile, because then He can truly show His redemption to those who truly need it the most:

                This is mercy, because He first Loved us; forgive them Father for they know not what they do: Why don’t you get to know the one who gave His life for even a wretch like me:

                Thank-you Lanny; but you remain in the Parables and Proverbs(Shadows) that testify to who Jesus has become: Now He is within a people doing a excellent work to and through the most vile first who truly needs Him: He has come to make war on sin; for even those who has become dead in their sins and trespasses, now to set the captive free:

                Thank-you my Lord and King, Thank-you for setting the captives free, for who the Son sets free is free indeed, In Jesus Name Alexandria:

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 3:23 am

                  Alexandria, For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. {Matthew 5: 20} and that righteousness must be the righteousness of Jesus’ earthly life imputed to the believer. The righteousness of Sodom and Gomorrah was as filthy rags {Isaiah 64: 6} But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. Human righteousness will not satisfy God, only Jesus’ perfect righteousness is sufficient to please God. That’s the righteousness imputed to God’s saints and that’s why I am as good as God is and therefore acceptable to Him while yet a saint with a sin nature. Being a saint of God requires faith, therefore only believers in the right stuff are the ones that God saves; all others perish everlastingly in everlasting torment. Your enlightenment is Satanic lies, dear Alexandria. Satan mixes truth with error to suck you into it and claim you as his victim. Sodom did NOT even exist when Ezekiel wrote what God-breathed to him. Sodom was NOT righteous. MORE is a comparative and as you commented it compares to being LESS wicked. That’s the point that can be stated either way and God chose to state it graciously rather than condemningly. Either way without imputed Righteousness it is filthy rags and no one gets imputed Righteousness without faith. They’ve been a long time physically dead without faith so they are well confirmed in their wickedness, dear girl. You don’t have a single text to prove even a single person has gotten saved after physically dying without confessing Christ, neither can you name such a person in the Bible as an example, yet you can do both for those saved in this mortal life. Your dream has no reality, but is a lie straight from the pit of hell. Give it up and go to the truth of everlasting torment or you’ll be there quick enough.

                  • Alexandria August 7, 2014 at 9:06 am

                    Lanny; correction I can see now that I am 3 hrs. before the time posted on this site:

                    You need to know Jesus; because He is the same yesterday, today and forever: He is the one who was and is and will be: All will come through Christ to be gathered up to God, so God will be all in all; therefore; when the living and the dead, as it is appointed unto man once to die and then Judgement, are all gathered in, then you can know, that all the living and the dead will indeed be Judged: but how so? through Mercy:

                    Only as we are shown our own filthiness can we turn from it and that is through the Righteous Judgement of our Lord and King:

                    His righteousness surpasses all, He became the fulfilment of the Law and Prophets, as He was even on the mount of transfiguration with Moses and Elijah as the fulfilment of the old covenant, witnessed by Peter, James and John: He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, therefore, all who went before Him and after Him shall be judged by Him, as He is the savour of the world: Then when all is forgiven and also given the free gift of salvation, all can be redeemed through Jesus Christ back to God: Then that is when all things shall be subjected to God by Jesus and God shall be all in all:

                    So when you know Jesus as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, then you can see Jesus truly is He who was and is and is to come: The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; to cover every man, woman and child that was ever birthed into this world: For in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive, but each one in their own order: He is the savour of the world, the elect are just a people chosen out of every generation to enter in as they are brought in and then to have Christ also formed in them as we are converted to now also go out a proclaim the good news as we become His testimony to what He has done, but only as witnesses through what He has done within us, even as we testify to who He is, through becoming One with Him even as He is with His Father, as we too have had Christ formed in us: That now we too can say as did Paul, to live is Christ in Jesus Name;

                    Salvation is a free gift, that no man can boast:

                    Sorry Lanny; but unless you get to know Jesus and who He is, and what that means to the All that died in Adam shall also be made alive in Christ; to even become His righteousness through judgement and mercy; and that He is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world; and who Jesus is as the Alpha and Omega, then you can only know in part: Jesus is the fullness of all the types and shadows manifested flesh from the foundation of the world: Therefore; if you can not see Jesus even as you read all the types and shadows, then you can not see Him cover all that even went before Him: But we who have become One with Him can see Him in all things, even all that went before Him:

                    Thank-you Lanny for your concern; but instead of looking to others, maybe now look to Jesus: For unless He even opens your eyes to see and know the truth, you too can only know in part, even through a glass darkly(through parables and shadows) until you see Jesus face to face: Take care, in Jesus Name Alexandria:

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 2:10 pm

                      Alexandria, as I said before you were sounding more and more like Patrick and Stephen, certainly your are echoing their error of mixing too much together. Jesus is very much to ONLY THOSE WHO RECEIVE HIM AS GOD’S FREE GIFT. That opportunity ends at physical death. Your doctrine is UNKNOWN in the Holy Bible and is only a corruption of texts. Jesus Christ is unknown to unbelievers, so He is not their Alpha and Omega and never will be. He is only that to believers.

                      For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. {Hebrews 4: 2}

                      It didn’t profit them in this life, therefore it can never profit them in the hereafter either. They rejected it once when it could have done the most good for them, and you think they can accept it when they are in everlasting torment? Look, Alexandria, this text is about those who came out of Egypt in the Exodus with Moses 1,500 years prior to the writing of the Epistle to the Hebrews and God’s Holy Spirit inspired it to be written that it still didn’t profit them. That means PERMANENTLY did not profit.them. It everlastingly did not profit them according to God’s Holy Spirit. You can’t get a more sure word of confirmation than one straight from God Himself. If your doctrine were true don’t you think some if not most who came out of Egypt and were burning in hell would have turned to Christ during those fifteen hundred years, yet the Holy Spirit says it did not profit them even fifteen hundred years later. Another two thousand years later and it still has not profited them, dear Alexandria. Bible doctrine is that once they are in hell they NEVER get out.

                      Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: {Romans 9: 20b – 22}

                      They were design by God to be “vessels of wrath fitted to destruction” and He will certainly keep His design intact throwing them into the everlasting Lake of Fire to be everlasting tormented. Get real, dear girl, and face reality. Six thousand years of human history has passed and less than 10% have ever even claimed the name of Jesus Christ before dying, yet you think your god saves everybody? If your god didn’t save even a smallest majority in this life when it does the most benefit to be saved, then your god, having failed at that, certainly is incapable of saving after death. Use some common horse sense, lady. You god fails to demonstrate he saves LIVES for Christ. Your god is not the God of the Bible, but just another god of the human imagination inspired by Satan in order to claim you for hell with himself.

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 3:35 am

                  Alexandria says: August 7, 2014 at 2:20 am

                  My time here 4 hrs before what is shown on this site

                  Where are you, gal. I’m in Utah on Mountain Daylight Savings Time and 2 hrs different.

                  I hope Alice get the font size standardized. It is hard to read such small print, but the automatic moderating is working again.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 7, 2014 at 2:40 am

              Alexandria, Sodom and Gomorrah was not righteous prior to what they have done to become so loathsome in the end. All have sinned and God is righteous to destroy even the most righteous sinner. Their current estate is total destruction and ruin, so their former estate is their wicked existance just before they were destroyed. Their former estate is their prior condition just before being destroyed. Their former estate or prior condition is that recorded in Genesis 18; 20 And the LORD said, “Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous.” That’s their former estate and their latter estate is total destruction following the rain of fire and brimstone. They were totally cutoff from the earth and that’s their latter estate. In Ezekiel, the Jerusalem population is cutoff from their land and deported to Babylon leaving a small remnant under Babylonian control in the city. That’s their latter estate and their former estate is their wickedness while they were still in possession of Jerusalem. Please use the former with the latter so you can understand the text correctly.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2014 at 1:46 pm

      Stephen, the term is “rightly dividing” not cramming together by force.

      @ Timothy 2: 15

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2014 at 1:48 pm

        @ 2 Timothy 2: 15 (KJV)

        • Stephen Helbig July 25, 2014 at 10:59 am

          Lanny, ~ “The verb ὀρθοτομεῖν occurs only here in the New Testament. In the LXX., in Proverbs 3:6, it stands for “he shall direct [or ‘make straight’] thy paths;” and so in Proverbs 11:5. The idea is the same as that in Hebrews 12:13, “Make straight paths for your feet (τροχιὰς ὀρθὰς ποιήσατε).” But this does not at all suit the context. We must look, therefore, at the etymology of the word. Ὀρθοτόμεω must mean “to cut straight,” ~ 3718 orthotoméō(from temnō, “to cut” and 3717 /orthós, “straight”), “And as the apostle is speaking of a good workman, he must be thinking of some work in which the workman’s skill consists in cutting straight: why not his own trade, in which it was all-important to cut the pieces straight that were afterwards to be JOINED to each other (see ὀρθότομος and ὀρθοτομία)? Hence, by an easy metaphor, “divide rightly,” or “handle rightly, the Word of truth,” preserving the true measure of the different portions of Divine truth”, ~ Pulpit commentary ~ SO THEY MAY BE JOINED TOGETHER

          p.s. ~ some think “rightly dividing” is the allusion to the “divisions”; , being cut or divided one from another; ~ But there is a oneness to God and his word ~ JOINED TO EACH OTHER In HIS DIVINE PURPOSE

          p.s.s. ~ 2 Timothy 2 :15 ~ Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

          “Study” ~ Greek, “Be earnest,” or “diligent.”

          “To Show”—Greek, “present,” as in Ro 12:1.

          “Thyself” ~ (key word ~ thyself) We show ourself what ?

          “Approved unto God”: ~ “APPROVED” , “Father make them one as we are one” ~ JOINED

          p.s.s.t. ~ Great scripture verse Lanny ~ Grace and peace be upon you

          • Stephen Helbig July 25, 2014 at 11:23 am

            “AND” ~ approach

            (2 Tim. 2:13) ~ Our unbelief does not change what God believes; he cannot contradict himself! ~ (See Rom 3:3,4 What we believe about God does not define him; God’s faith defines us. God cannot be untrue to himself!)

            (2 Tim. 2:14) ~ Gently remind your audience always of these things which focus on the fact that the life of your design is redeemed in Christ Jesus, because we were included in his death and are therefore equally included in his resurrection. This the foundation of our faith and cannot be contradicted by any persecution, because God cannot be untrue to himself! Let your testimony in your face to face encounter with the Lord, speak for itself! You don’t need to engage in a war of words to desperately try and defend doctrines and perceptions! Instead of proving profitable, these debates are catastrophic to the faith of your students! To mix two systems will certainly confuse your audience! ~ (See verse 10, 11 and 2 Corinthians 5:14 & 15)

            (2Tim. 2:15) ~ [1]Without any delay [2]live your life from a place where you are familiar with the complete approval of God; you do not need to apologize for the fact that your experience might be a contradiction to your faith! What God believes about you needs no defense! There is such an immediate authority in [3]clarity! Truth triumphs over every contradiction! It makes a clear-cut division between light and darkness; the word of truth shows distinctly that the duty-driven law of works and annoyances and the love-driven law of perfect liberty have nothing in common! ~ (The word [1]spoudazō means to use speed, to be prompt, immediately. The word [2]paristemi from para, a preposition indicating close proximity, a thing proceeding from a sphere of influence, with a suggestion of UNION of place of residence, to have sprung from its author and giver, originating from, denoting the point from which an action originates, intimate connection; and istemi, to position. The word [2] alētheia means not concealed, truth, clarity.)

            Above scripture verses taken from ~Toit, Francois Du (2014-01-08). Mirror Bible: A selection of key New Testament texts paraphrased from the Greek (Kindle Locations 6151-6153). Mirror Word Publishing (Kindle Edition by Ten10 Ebooks). Kindle Edition.

            • Stephen Helbig July 25, 2014 at 11:43 am

              correction to above post in 2Tim. 2:15 (last sentence in paragraph) ~ The word [3] alētheia means not concealed, truth, clarity.)

  • Mary Vanderplas August 11, 2014 at 5:37 am

    I don’t think that there are laws of nature – divine absolutes – regarding hair length for women and men. Paul identifies social conventions with “nature” – i.e., what seemed natural to him in his setting. In contrast to the cultural setting of first-century Corinth, for women to wear their hair short or men to wear theirs long in the United States today is not “unnatural” – i.e., it doesn’t violate any social conventions.

  • Mary Vanderplas August 11, 2014 at 5:42 am

    I posted a comment in response to Lanny’s August 10 post. I’m not sure where it wound up.

    • admin August 11, 2014 at 1:37 pm

      It probably got lost somewhere in the transition from the old design to the new design. I’ll keep my eye out for it…

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    Mary, But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. {1 Corinthians 11: 3} is NOT Paul’s opinion, but God’s ordained order. Just because he wrote: “I would have you know” does NOT mean it originated with Paul. He is tellig them to know the timeless truth God has ordered; and that’s precisely what you need to acknowledge. So do it, already, Mary, and save yourself a lot of grief.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2014 at 6:07 pm

    Mary, I asked you a PERSONAL question August 10, 2014 at 7:30 pm Mary, do you think it is NATURAL for men to wear their hair longer than most women today? Do you think it is NATURAL for women to wear their hair as short as most men wear their hair short or shorter? I did not ask what was customary in the USA, but what YOU thought was natural.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2014 at 8:25 pm

    Alice, are you going to have a list of Last Ten Recent Comments om your new home page? It was very helpful.

    • admin August 12, 2014 at 12:30 pm

      I’ll see what I can do. Thanks for the suggestion.

    • admin August 12, 2014 at 12:41 pm

      It’s in the footer menu, on the left-hand side.

  • Mary Vanderplas August 12, 2014 at 5:31 am

    Read my earlier response. I said that I don’t think that there are laws of nature that determine appropriate hair length for women and men – which means that I think your questions are invalid.

    I asked you a personal question three weeks ago which you never answered. It’s pretty clear that you don’t have a good explanation for your (irrational) behavior of seeking to engage in theological conversation those whom you view as being unable to reason.

  • Mary Vanderplas August 12, 2014 at 5:33 am

    So, are verses 11 and 12 in the same passage – verses in which Paul affirms the equality and mutuality of men and women – reflective of God’s intentions? What about this ordering in verse 3? Is man the “head” of woman in the same way Christ is the “head” of man? It is at least possible that “head” here means “source” – especially in light of the fact that Paul uses the creation story to talk about the source of man and woman and that he refers to the source of the man being birth from the woman. If this is the case, he isn’t specifying a hierarchical order that includes man and woman.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 11:57 am

    Mary, the head of the body instructs the rest of the body what to do. That’s what all women need from the men in their lives. That’s also the obvious answer to your question with the intent of pushing me off this site. The NT writers call themselves slaves of Christ in respnse of His giving Himself for their sins. Why don’t you practice that attitude toward the men in your life instead of seeking equal responsibility and notability?

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 12:03 pm

    Alice, clicking on reply doesn’t seem to place the comment under that former comment.

    • admin August 12, 2014 at 12:38 pm

      This post has 90 comments. My guess is that the problem is probably happening because the limit for threaded (nested) comments only goes 10 levels deep. Try posting a new comment instead.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 5:29 pm

    I liked the old formate with the name followed by the first few words. That way a clue to who is addressed or possibly what is addressed is seen. Pointing resulted to the blog addressed popping up. That was very very informative, much more than today’s.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 5:33 pm

    Under #8b is where this should go about the Comments list, but it didn’t get there. August 12, 2014 at 5:29 pm I liked the old formate with the name followed by the first few words. That way a clue to who is addressed or possibly what is addressed is seen. Pointing resulted to the blog addressed popping up. That was very very informative, much more than today’s.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 5:52 pm

    Alice, this is a test . Under the very first comment, July 21, 2014 at 5:22 am Mary’s #1, I clicked and got the reply box immediately below it. That’s good for starters, so let’s see where it lands when I click Post Comment.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 12, 2014 at 5:55 pm

    Alice, my reply to July 21, 2014 at 5:22 am Mary’s #1 landed at the bottom of the page instead of where it should have nested..

  • Mary Vanderplas August 13, 2014 at 5:10 am

    Lanny the Victim?????? Oh, get real. My intent is to expose your behavior for what it is: irrational and contradictory. You eagerly dialogue with women, even inquiring what Alice thinks and what I think, while at the same time bashing women, saying that they lack reasoning capacity. Do you really expect me to take you seriously and to have any respect for you?? You’ll have to repent in order for that to happen.

    So, how long has it been that you’ve been trying to be my “head,” instructing me as to what I need to do? Three years? And how has that gone?? (It takes more than someone having male genitalia to get me to listen.)

    I have no problem with being a slave of Christ, acknowledging his Lordship and striving to obey him. This is the will of God for the saints. I have a major problem with being treated as inferior to men, being put in a subordinate position, under their authority. This is not the will of God for women. On the contrary, the will of God is that women be free – fully the equals of men.

    So, what were you hoping I would call you: “lord and savior”?

    I’m done. I’ve said all I have to say – and then some – on this. Don’t waste your time continuing to try to “instruct” me. Your hell will freeze over before I’ll buy into your fundamentalist crap.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 13, 2014 at 9:02 am

    Mary, what you’ve exposed is yourself and your evil heart of unbelief which prevents your honesty.

    Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. {Hebrews 3: 12}

    Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. {2 Corinthians 4: 1 – 5}

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