Parade of Triumph

Parade of Triumph

Parade of Triumph

Parade of Triumph

In Paul’s first century world, a parade of triumph looked like this:

On the day of his triumph, the general wore a crown of laurel and the all-purple, gold-embroidered triumphal toga picta (“painted” toga), regalia that identified him as near-divine or near-kingly. He rode in a four-horse chariot through the streets of Rome in unarmed procession with his army, captives and the spoils of his war. […] All this, to the accompaniment of music, clouds of incense and the strewing of flowers. (Wikipedia)

Paul writes in 2 Corinthians 2:14,

But thanks be to God, who in Christ always leads us in triumphal procession, and through us spreads the fragrance of the knowledge of him everywhere.

First, Paul thanks God. Then, Paul describes the reason he thanks God, that is, what God does. How very appropriate, given that this website is called What God Does. What does God do? He leads us in triumph in Christ. However…

In the Reign of God, things are not always as they seem.

God’s parade of triumph is not lead by a general wearing a “crown of laurel and the all-purple, gold-embroidered triumphal toga picta, regalia that identified him as near-divine or near-kingly,” it is lead by Jesus, wearing a crown of thorns and a purple robe drenched in His own blood and the spit of His tormentors, who said “Save yourself if you are the Son of God” and “If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself.” God’s parade of triumph is not lead by a celebrated general riding “in a four-horse chariot through the streets of Rome,” it is lead by the Messiah, rejected by His own people, dragging the heavy instrument of His death, along the Via Dolorosa.

His conquering power is not in money, politics, military force, and the like. Charles Spurgeon said

Remember, that Christ viewed as living, and not as having died, is not a saving Christ. He himself saith, “I am he that liveth and was dead.” The moderns cry, “Why not preach more about his life, and less about his death?” I reply, Preach his life as much as you will, but never apart from his death; for it is by his blood that we are redeemed. “We preach Christ.” Complete the sentence. “We preach Christ crucified,” says the apostle. Ah, yes! there is the point. It is the death of the Son of God which is the conquering weapon.

Thriambeúō

There’s an interesting parallel between 2 Corinthians 2:14 and Colossians 2:15, the only two places in the New Testament that you’ll find the word thriambeúō (thriambeuonti/thriambeusas are conjugations of thriambeúō).

2 Corinthians 2:14

2 Corinthians 2:14

Colossians 2:15

Colossians 2:15

 

The word Paul uses to describe the parade of believers in 2 Corinthians 2:14 is thriambeúō.

The relevant phrases are (2 Corinthians 2:14) thriambeúō us in Christ and (Colossians 2:15) thriambeúō over them in him. Notice that the word over is NOT found in this translation of 2 Corinthians 2:14, yet it IS found in this translation of Colossians 2:15.

To thriambeúō a person or group of people is to lead him/her/them around and make a spectacle of the fact that he/she/they have been defeated. The word thriambeúō literally means “to triumph over.” The translators choose not to include the word when it refers to believers but to include the word when it refers to rulers and authorities that have been disarmed by Christ. Why is that?

Disappointed in the Knowledge of Him?

Perhaps the idea of Christ parading us around as His defeated subjects is unappealing to us. It reminds us of the imaginary king in the beginning of The Reign of God Is Within You. We don’t want to be ruled by a king like that. We don’t want to be captives in a triumphal procession to the place of our execution. We don’t want to be on display as the evidence of a conquering power, and we certainly don’t want to be identified with the disarmed rulers and authorities in Colossians.

Colossians 1:16-20 says,

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

When Christ died, it was the ultimate triumphal demonstration. He had every right to fight back, but He didn’t. He allowed the sentence of death to be imposed upon Himself in order to reconcile all things. When Christ was “born” from death, it made sense out of the idea of death = triumph. In His parade of triumph, those who live, live for Him and His purposes. If we are to live for Him, we must first die with Him.

When the time of Jesus’ crucifixion was drawing near, Jesus said,

The hour hath come that the Son of Man may be glorified; verily, verily, I say to you, if the grain of the wheat, having fallen to the earth, may not die, itself remaineth alone; and if it may die, it doth bear much fruit; he who is loving his life shall lose it, and he who is hating (3404 miséō – properly, to detest on a comparative basis; hence, denounce; to love someone or something less than someone/something else, i.e. to renounce one choice in favor of another) his life in this world — to life age-during shall keep it; if any one may minister to me, let him follow me, and where I am, there also my ministrant shall be; and if any one may minister to me — honour him will the Father. Now hath my soul been troubled, and what? shall I say — Father, save me from this hour? — but because of this I came to this hour.

With the grain of wheat analogy, Jesus explains that His death results in (fruit) life. He then goes on to explain the analogy as it pertains to those who are perishing and those who are being saved. By holding on to life in this world, as if it were the be-all-end-all of this experience we call living, one loses it. Such a person is called one who is perishing, or one who is being cut off from aionios zoe (to know God in the life Jesus gives, with duration that extends into the coming age). By renouncing the life of this world in comparison to knowing God in the life Jesus gives, since knowing God in the life Jesus gives is the be-all-end-all of this experience we call living, one keeps it. Such a person is called one who is being saved, or one who is possessing aionios zoe.

Not only this, but with the grain of wheat analogy, Jesus explains that where He is, there those who are being saved will also be. So, where is He? He is leading the parade of triumph that leads from death (i.e. life in this world without aionios zoe) to death (cut off from aionios zoe in the age to come) and from life (life in this world with aionios zoe) to life in the coming age.

Believers are identified with the disarmed rulers and authorities in Colossians 2:15, lumped together with everything and everyone created through Him and for Him, held together by Him, and ultimately subjected to Him, not through a conquering power that is corrupt and self-seeking, but through a conquering power that is reconciling through selfless love. Should we want to be saved from the parade of triumph? No, it is the purpose for which we live in Christ — to be humbled, misunderstood, falsely perceived as liars or lunatics, and giving up whatever is required of us in order to align ourselves with His purpose.

Now, the operative questions are:

  1. Why is God pleased with what is happening to those who are perishing?
  2. How does this relate to the new wine in the old wineskin versus the new wine in the new wineskin? (See New Wineskin for the New Wine…)

Think about how rulers and authorities operate. In the hands of someone with selfless love, power is beneficial and good. But in the hands of someone with corrupt motives, power is oppressive. What weapons do such powers wield? It can take your money or your property. It can cause mental, emotional, or physical harm and even death to people or those they love. But once it kills, there’s nothing more it can do. It can’t extend beyond the grave. It is limited “according to the flesh.”

We think that the human problem is that life ends with death. As it turns out, death ends with life, because Jesus, by death, conquers both sin (corruption, oppression, etc.) and death, and as the first “born” from the dead, He gives a kind of life that cannot ever be subject to death.

To those who are perishing, these concepts are a fragrance of death to death, or as Paul explains elsewhere, “the message of the cross is foolishness” to them. This perishing doesn’t refer to a fixed state, it is an ongoing process. To those who are being saved, these concepts are a fragrance of life to life, or as Paul explains elsewhere, “the power of God” to them. Like the perishing process, this saving doesn’t refer to a fixed state, it is an ongoing process.

Why is God pleased with what is happening to those who are perishing?

In order to understand what really happens to those who are actively involved in the ongoing process of perishing, we need to look to what is happening with those who are actively involved in the ongoing process of being saved. The apostle Paul can be counted among them, and he explains what is happening much better than I can:

For this cause, I Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you the nations, if, indeed, ye did hear of the dispensation of the grace of God that was given to me in regard to you, that by revelation He made known to me the secret, according as I wrote before in few [words] — in regard to which ye are able, reading [it], to understand my knowledge in the secret of the Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it was now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit — that the nations be fellow-heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of His promise in the Christ, through the good news, of which I became a ministrant, according to the gift of the grace of God that was given to me, according to the working of His power; to me — the less than the least of all the saints — was given this grace, among the nations to proclaim good news — the untraceable riches of the Christ, and to cause all to see what [is] the fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God, who the all things did create by Jesus Christ, that there might be made known now to the principalities and the authorities in the heavenly [places], through the assembly, the manifold wisdom of God, according to a purpose of the ages, which He made in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have the freedom and the access in confidence through the faith of him, wherefore, I ask [you] not to faint in my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom the whole family in the heavens and on earth is named, that He may give to you, according to the riches of His glory, with might to be strengthened through His Spirit, in regard to the inner man, that the Christ may dwell through the faith in your hearts, in love having been rooted and founded, that ye may be in strength to comprehend, with all the saints, what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height, to know also the love of the Christ that is exceeding the knowledge, that ye may be filled — to all the fulness of God; and to Him who is able above all things to do exceeding abundantly what we ask or think, according to the power that is working in us, to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.

First, those who are being saved are proclaiming good news among the nations. What is the good news? Paul calls it “the untraceable riches of the Christ.” Elsewhere in scripture these riches are:

  • of His kindness
  • of His glory
  • for the world
  • for the Gentiles
  • of wisdom and knowledge of God
  • of His grace
  • of the glory of His inheritance
  • of Christ
  • to fill all needs
  • of the full assurance of understanding
  • of the reproach of Christ (and subsequent rewards)

Second, those who are being saved are causing all, not just some, but all, to see this: The fellowship of the secret that hath been hid from the ages in God.” What is this fellowship? What is this secret? Right now, in this age, the assembly of those who are being saved (aka, the Church, that is not the institutional church, but those who are being saved, whether part of the institutional church or not) are demonstrating something to the principalities (rulers) and the authorities in the heavenly (2032 epouránios referring to the impact of heaven’s influence on the particular situation). What are we demonstrating? The manifold wisdom of God. And this isn’t just His wisdom in a general sense. It is a specific kind of wisdom, that is, according to a purpose of the ages.

Think about that…

We see the tramp of armies and of battles upon the graphic page, and an account more or less intelligent of the different and concurrent causes; but with what fuller insight and appreciation mast the heavenly world look down upon the vicissitudes of time! Amid the conflicting policies of different states and nations, the missionary enterprise appears as the one consistent and uniting policy. The elevation of the world’s peoples into one consecrated whole, into one mighty family, into one organic whole, is surely worthy of a God. And this is what the Church exhibits; it was for this Paul suffered, it is for this we in our respective spheres must struggle too. — R.M. Edgar

Those who are currently being saved are called “firstfruit.” The reason for this is that in scripture, firstfruit is a demonstration that the entire field belongs to God. Those currently being saved, that is, the first portion of all creation from this particular age, are a demonstration that the entire creation belongs to God, “according to the purpose (4286 próthesis, from 4253 /pró, ‘before’ and 5087 /títhēmi, ‘purposefully set forth’ – properly, providence – literally, ‘a setting forth in advance’ for a specific purpose, ‘God’s pre-thesis’) of the ages.”

It is no accident that those who are being saved are identified with the disarmed rulers and authorities in Colossians 2:15. We are evidence in God’s pre-thesis of the ages. To state in the most simple terms the answer to the question, “Why is God pleased with what is happening to those who are perishing?” this parade of triumph is just getting started. The evidence of the redemptive work of Christ, completed in His death (“It is finished.”) and resurrection, is just now beginning to become apparent. We’ve just begun to crack the lid on the treasure box of His riches. There is a purpose for those who are perishing, and that purpose is not apparent in this age.  Those who believe in this age are only beginning to understand what Paul meant when he said that the living God is “the Savior of all people, especially those who believe.”

How does this relate to the new wine in the old wineskin versus the new wine in the new wineskin?

Let me put it this way, if it makes you terribly uncomfortable to read the previous paragraphs or similar ideas elsewhere, if you feel a sense of fear that believing such things is heresy, or if you stopped reading this blog (unfortunately you won’t see this) or similar content elsewhere because of such reasons, chances are you’ve got some old wineskin. You can feel the old wineskin tearing as the knowledge of God overwhelms the limitations of your traditional beliefs. To you, it is the fragrance of death to death.

In contrast, if His Spirit within you stirs as you read the previous paragraphs or similar ideas elsewhere, if you feel a sense of hope that believing such things helps you understand the aionios zoe you have in Christ, or if you keep on reading this blog or similar content elsewhere because of such reasons, chances are you’ve got a new wineskin. You can feel the new wineskin stretching to take in the knowledge of God. The limitations of your traditional beliefs are a thing of the past. To you, it is the fragrance of life to life.

 

Correction

In The Fragrance of Life and Death: Reexamining 2 Cor. 2:14-16 I wrote,

The word “aroma” or “euódia,” […] is used only six times in the New Testament […]

Then Mary took about a pint of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus’ feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. (John 12:3)

In John 12:3, fragrance is not the Greek word euódia, rather, it is osmé. I try to be careful, but occasionally I make mistakes. That’s why readers are encouraged on the Home page to “Test everything. Hold on to what is good.”

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 12:43 am

    Alice, there’s a big difference between WHO is triumphant is 2 Corinthians 2: 14 and Colossians 2: 15. The former reference is US, US, US, US in triumph, while the latter is Christ in triumph. Your talk of military triumph has NOTHING to do with the former, just the latter; so all you’re doing is vainly taking up non-applicable space on the page if you’re thinking of expounding the 2 Corinthians 2: 15 & 16. Neither does Ephesians 3 which you quote bare on 2 Corinthians 2: 15 & 16. You come close with John 12: 24, but not exactly, since you’ve gotten the wrong dying. Not “if” but “since” we are to live for Him, we must first die with Him. That’s Romans 6: 1 – 4 and Galatians 2: 20, but, see, you can’t make the right connection because you haven’t experience the “new birth” and died with Christ on the cross. You haven’t been born-again. If you’ve only been born once, you’ll die twice; but if you’ve been born twice, you’ll only die once. You’re still writing about things you know nothing about. You are NOT a spiritual person, regardles of what you think of yourself; you are still spiritually dead and unable to put Biblical salvation together in any explainable way. There’s hope for you only if you will humbly admit your ignorance. All you are doing is confounding all the wrong Scriptures and inverting the meaning of 2 Corinthians 2: 15 & 16 as I previously warned you. The height of your ignorance is expressed in your statement: Believers are identified with the disarmed rulers and authorities in Colossians 2:15. Believers are victors clothed with the whole armor of God {Ephesians 6: 11- 17}. Wow, you even make this ignorant statement: There is a purpose for those who are perishing, and that purpose is not apparent in this age. That’s because you refuse to believe Everlasting Torment causing your whole fabric to fall apart. Those who are being saved are causing NOT all, but just some, to see the manifold wisdom of God in ET; and that means those today being saved are NOT firstfruits as used in the Holy Bible. Your use of firstfruits is your heresy of salvation after physical death requiring such a distinction where none such is expounded in Scripture. After over two thousand years since the Cross and you write; Those who believe are only beginning to understand what Paul meant when he said that the living God is “the Savior of all people, especially those who believe.” You sure do have an high opinion of your unregenerate understanding. You really should quit this site and write what you know instead of sharing your ignorance.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 1:13 am

      Alice, Jesus spoke these words to the woman at the well in John 4: 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. Jesus is so telling her she isn’t worshipping God’s way because she doesn’t have what it takes. She had no trouble understanding that. Please follow her example.

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 1:22 am

        Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. {Matthew 5: 26} Since YOU have to pay, of what value is the Blood of Jesus?

        I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite. {Luke 12: 59} YOU have to pay, says Jesus.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 1:29 am

          Mark 8: 37 what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

  • Mary Vanderplas August 26, 2014 at 5:55 am

    I agree that in the picture of the Roman victory parade here given, Paul and the missionaries are identified with the prisoners of war, though I don’t think the analogy should be pressed to suggest that they were forced to march as defeated subjects of Christ. I think the idea is that in submitting to his rule, they suffered the same afflictions that he suffered and hence bore witness to his suffering and sacrifice for the sake of all.

    I don’t disagree that participating in the triumph of Christ entails first identifying with him in his death – i.e., putting to death the old self with its inhuman ways – so that we can identify with him in his life and fulfill his life-giving purposes in the world. I wouldn’t say, however, that our purpose as disciples is to be humbled, etc., but only to submit to his gracious rule and bear witness to his life-giving love no matter what the cost to ourselves.

    I don’t accept your premise regarding the text saying that God is pleased with what is happening to those who are perishing; hence, I think the question you ask is invalid. I think the text is saying that God is pleased with the proclamation of the gospel, the testimony of the apostles, not with the fact that some do not accept the message and therefore do not know God’s saving love.

    I like what you say about the meaning of perishing and being saved, though, again, I wouldn’t say that God is pleased that some reject the message and are cut off from the life he gives through and in Christ. I like what you say about the life God gives being “a kind of life that cannot ever be subject to death” – a source of tremendous hope in the midst of an ever-decaying world. And I like what you say about those who are being saved being the firstfruit – signaling that God’s fulfillment of his purpose of reconciling to himself the creation is underway, though only in its beginning stages. I’m not sure I agree, though, that believers are identified with the powers spoken of in Colossians 2. I think it is more fitting to say that we are won/liberated/transformed than that we are disarmed/stripped/paraded (against our wills).

    I like what you say about the new wineskin stretching to take in new knowledge of God in his saving purposes for all – enabling experience of the life that God gives in Christ.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 7:54 am

      Mary, God’s purpose of reconciling to Himself the creation is underway? It is nearly COMPLETED after six thousand years. Prophetically only one thousand years remains before He melts down this world and makes all things NEW. See, you don’t have a clear understanding of what God is doing, so naturally all you frequently say is “I don’t think” and “I wouldn’t say” and while you say disciples are to submit to his gracious rule you refuse male domination of the female in responsibility. You are a “natural” person without the regeneration of the new birth and that’s why you are so rebellious and misunderstanding. You’ll never get the truth until you become a Fundamentalist.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 8:06 am

      See, Alice, that even Mary would not make the textual connections you make in your careless exposition, and she’s not even saved either. You’re extreme: extremely wrong. She bought your firstfruits thing meaning the blind are leading the blind and both are falling into the ditch, yet she puts God’s saints as won/liberated/transformed rather than disarmed/stripped/paraded against their wills.

    • Alice Spicer August 27, 2014 at 7:22 pm

      I wouldn’t say that we’re “disarmed/stripped/paraded (against our wills)”, I would say we are willingly disarmed, stripped, and paraded, but not because of moral fortitude or any other form of goodness conjured up on our own. The will is changed when it is being made alive (http://biblehub.com/greek/4806.htm) with Him. Being disarmed, stripped, paraded and whatever else is good or necessary is of little consequence because we are glorifying Him and His totally unique and wonderful way of conquering.

      • Mary Vanderplas August 28, 2014 at 5:22 am

        What you say makes sense. I think you’re right about there being a dismantling, a humbling, a stripping away of the ego involved in knowing Christ and being ruled by him. I think you’re right to say that this (painful) undoing is the pathway to becoming whole and living the life of the reign of God. (I’m reminded of the violent grace that permeates the stories of Flannery O’Connor.)

        I still have trouble, though, with the connection you make between the two texts. Even seeing in the parade of triumph depicted in 2 Corinthians this humbling that opens us to relationship with God and with our fellow human beings, I can’t see that this compares to what is described in Colossians: the hostile powers being defeated and disarmed – stripped of their authority – and disgraced. In the latter case, the defeated enemies are not willing participants in the victory parade. And their defeat and divestment of power is for the liberation of human beings over whom they have a hold.

        • Alice Spicer August 28, 2014 at 12:14 pm

          My sneaky suspicion is that the rulers and authorities refers more to the corrupt actions/motivations than the people who make them. But it’s just a guess.

  • Stephen Helbig August 26, 2014 at 1:19 pm

    Parade of triumph ~ This is how and why: ~ Let the love of Christ be your life; remember how the Christ abandoned himself to us reconciling the world. ~ His love is contagious, not reluctant or unwilling, but extravagant and overgenerous to be spent on our behalf. Sacrificial love pleases God like the sweet aroma of worship (see Rm. 12:1) ~ we are that living sacrifice. ~ (Resembling the holy anointing oil and the pure fragrant incense of spices, the work of a perfumer, to be burnt on the golden altar of incense in the inner court of the tent of meeting. of which tent we ARE ~ [Ex 37:25-29]) ~ for we are a sweet-smelling savour, “for an odor of a sweet smell,” that is, God is well pleased with this offering and so is reconciled to ~ US ~ (Eph 1:6; Mt 3:17; 2Co 5:18, 19; Heb 10:6-17). ~ The ointment and most important spices poured upon Aaron’s head ~ the dew that descends on Zion the church the firstborn of the living God ~ (note Ps. 133) ~ FOR THERE THE LORD COMMANDED THE BLESSING EVEN LIFE FOREVERMORE), which answers to the variety of the graces by which Jesus has enabled to “offer Himself The CHRIST ~ HIS anointed BODY (THE BODY OF CHRIST) a sacrifice for a sweet-smelling savor.”(ZION THE JOY OF THE WHOLE EARTH) ~ again another type, or prophecy by figure, was “the sweet savor” (“savor of rest,” Margin) which God smelled in Noah’s sacrifice (Gen. 8:21). And so again we see in us, for what Christ is, believers also are (1Jn 4:17), and ministers are as Paul says (2Co 2:17) ~ ”WE SPEAK IN CHRIST ” ~…”For we who live are constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. ~ So death works in us, but life in you. ~ Having the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, “I BELIEVED, THEREFORE I SPOKE,” we also believe, therefore we also speak”, … “we are unto God a sweet savor of Christ.” ~ a pre-thesis and purpose of the ages ~ The FIRSTBORN among the dead ~ And he is the head of the body, THE CHURCH: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead(Col.1:8) ~ and YES ~ Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

    p.s.

    Lanny A. Eichert
    August 18, 2014 at 1:26 am

    God has it a sweet smell to those actively being saved AND to those actively perishing, but to which does death belong and to which does life belong? Don’t you see the ORDER in the sentences? #1 are those actively being saved; and #2 are those actively perishing. #1 is the sweet smell of death; and #2 is the sweet smell of life. The number 1′s go together and the number 2′s go together. Therefore death belongs to those being saved; but life belongs to those perishing. Why in the world would any one reverse the “order” of the words? Christians are the smell of death to one another, but they are the smell of life to those actively perishing.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 3:48 pm

      Stephen, you all are putting Scriptures together incorrectly. 2 Corinthians 2: 14 – 16 has NOTHING to do with the triumphant procession of Colossians 2: 15. In Colossians principalities and powers are displayed in disgrace, while in Corinthians saints are in triumph. You are all taken up with the sweet-smelling savour and confusing the parade of disgrace. They are two separate things. Even constantly being delivered over to death for Jesus’ sake is NOT the death odor of the Corinthians text. It doesn’t contrast with the life of salvation. The believers’ crucifixion with Christ is to SINS, not ministry hardships and self-sacrifice. The believer dies to sins. His old nature, the old sin nature (OSN) is what needs to be RECKONED dead and kept reckoned dead if he is to have the victory and live in triumph, and therefore able to minister the Gospel. Gospel ministers are an odor of that death to other hopeful ministers of the Gospel. The hopefuls will never get ministry sucess if they don’t ALSO die to their sins. That’s the savour of one man’s death to another man’s death. The minister that is dead to his sins is then full of life enabled to preach life to those perishing that they might believe and have salvation life. That’s the savour of one man’s life to another man’s life. That’s how everlasting life is imparted to the perishing by the Gospel. You are just as confused as the other two who think they are saved when they are not and that’s why you just continue to confuse Scripture. You, too, need to be born again the SIMPLE fundamental Bible way. The parade of triumph is NOT how and why, poor Stephen. It is as unrelated as you are unsaved. You need to believe the right things.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 26, 2014 at 8:35 pm

    Alice, Mary, Stephen; can you put this together?

    For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7: 11
    But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me. Romans 7: 13
    Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1: 15
    But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth. 1 Timothy 5: 6

    In this mortal life, when a person sins that person has died and is dead in their spirituality. They have no effectual communion with God. That means a minister of the Gospel who has unconfessed sin in his life has grieved and handicapped God’s Holy Spirit from giving him power and excitement in his preaching. He carries the burden of the consequences of his unconfessed sins and his boldness is greatly hindered such that his Gospel utterances are muddled and ineffective. This is the very condition which is avoided if he had been reckoning himself dead to those sins before those temptations resulted in sinful thoughts and deeds. That reckoning is by the encouragement of another minister’s fellowship examplifying that reckoning in his own life. That’s the savour of death to death. The first minister’s death to sins encouraging the second minister’s continuation of his death to sins by continuous reckoning it so as God said. Faith is just believing what God said. Salvation from sins’ power is by this reckoning and it goes on moment by moment in this mortal life so that he can be said to be one of those who are being saved each moment of the day. God’s believers are a sweet savour of Christ as a savour of death to death to others who are also being saved moment by moment in their victories over sins. Who of the three of you understands this?

    • Alice Spicer August 26, 2014 at 9:32 pm

      I understand what you are saying. I suppose this could be at least partly true. With “He carries the burden of the consequences of his unconfessed sins…” I think it would be a self-made burden, due to a lack of understanding grace.

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 27, 2014 at 12:00 am

        Alice, unconfessed sins have their consequences even for God’s saints under grace. God is not mocked even by saints. Unconfessed sins have temporal and relational consequences during this life otherwise God’s saints would not be commanded to not grieve and not quench God’s Holy Spirit with the emphasis on His Holiness, that is, His HOLY Spirit. Your response shows a faulty understanding of both God’s holiness and God’s grace to man. God is jealous over His saints, having provided for their complete cleansing, He tells saints to NOT sin {1 John 2: 1 & 2} and to be holy because He is holy. Naturally since you are constantly living in disobedience to His church, you want to minimize the result of your sins. That’s why your claim to salvation is pure foolishness because you refuse to obey God’s dispensational program of His institutional church. Your view of grace seems practically to be licentiousness {Romans 6: 1}. Where’s your personal holiness, dear girl? Hebrews 12: 14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord. The holiness that’s in Christ must also be found in you or you have received the grace of God in vain. God’s salvation changes LIVES here and now.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 27, 2014 at 12:13 am

          Alice, it is not just your lack of local church involvement, but your speech also. You’re filthy and vulgar without excuse on this site and Jesus said, A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh. {Luke 6: 45 & Matthew 12: 34} O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. You’re an evil woman, Alice, speaking evil things that God did not say. God’s grace will see you in the Lake of Fire in everlasting torment unless you repent of this web site and who knows how much more.

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 27, 2014 at 3:49 am

        Alice, if you understand what I am saying why are God’s redeemed people responsible to confess their sins according to 1 John 1: 9 AFTER having their sins once for all time and eternity removed from them as far as the East is from the West the moment they first believed and were born again? Even years after their conversion 1 John 1: 9 is a moment by moment responsibility; why? Since they have this responsibility don’t you know there are consequences for non-compliance? Don’t you believe God’s saints have the responsibility to STOP sinning? 1 John 2: 1 & John 8: 11

        Don’t you see that if you’re “comfortable” with your sins you are NOT saved? That’s Romans 7, especially the last verse: deliverance. If you’re comfortable you don’t need deliverance.

        The Corinthian church were sickly and physically dying because they dishonored (sinned) at their Lord’s Supper memorial breaking of bread. That’s consequences of unconfessed sins. 1 Corinthians 5: 5 is another consequence of unconfessed sins.

        • Alice Spicer August 27, 2014 at 7:09 pm

          As long as we walk around and breath and eat and function in our corruptible “tents,” we will sin. You’re fooling yourself if you think you don’t sin anymore, once you believe. I do think there are consequences for sin, probably even more so for believers. Being comfortable in God’s grace is entirely different from being comfortable in continuous sin. I think (for a change) we agree on at least some of what you’ve written here.

          • Lanny A. Eichert August 27, 2014 at 10:50 pm

            Alice, 1 John 1: 8 & 10 does NOT excuse anybody from the responsibility of 1 John 2: 1 & John 8: 11. Those whom God has saved have always been instructed to stop sinning and start enjoying their call to holiness. All known sin must be confessed or else the saint is in rebellion against God and will suffer divine discipline. He cannot use the excuse of liberty allows him that conduct or he doesn’t believe it to be a sin for him to do it. Such is purposeful self-deception of a proud mind.

            Above, dear Alice, your wiggle-room exception to against their will doesn’t work. God doesn’t disgrace His saints parading them before the world in defeat. Go back to the text and see it is principalities and powers which are openly made a show of shame.

            If you think we agree on some of what I’ve written, then you disagree on most of what I’ve written and that’s not good for you. In fact that’s bad for you because truth is not relative, rather it is absolute.

            • Alice Spicer August 28, 2014 at 12:18 pm

              http://biblehub.com/greek/1165.htm

              I don’t think the point is shame, the point is shining a light on corruption to reveal it for what it is. Doesn’t this also happen in the heart of every believer?

              • Lanny A. Eichert August 28, 2014 at 4:45 pm

                Alice, the definition of sins is not on parade; persons are paraded: principalities and powers, which have always been understood to mean Satanic spirit personal beings.

                For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. {Ephesians 6: 12}

                These are PERSONS, not merely corrupt actions/motivations since such cannot exist without the individual person participating in them. I’ve argued that before. Good does not exist without God and evil cannot exist without spirits and men. There in John 1: 1 & 2 when all that existed was God, only good existed without evil. Evil had no existence. Principalities and powers cannot be impersonalized. (We come again full circle to how did evil become? Did God create the two opposites, good and evil? No. Did Satan create evil?)

                Besides that you still are mistaken to use Colossians 2: 15 to explain 2 Corinthians 2: 14 and to this Mary agrees stating, “I still have trouble, though, with the connection you make between the two texts.” {above: Mary Vanderplas August 28, 2014 at 5:22 am}

                Stop guessing wrong guesses you just pull out of the air when you don’t know.

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