Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: The Anathema of Scrutiny

Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: The Anathema of Scrutiny

Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: The Anathema of Scrutiny

My Spanish 1 instructor, Professor Farcau, assigned each student in her class a number and informed the students, “In la clase de Spanish 1, all will give an oral presentation.”  Then, she said, “All who have been assigned numbers one through twenty will present on Monday.”

The students assigned numbers twenty-one and up did not assume that they were exempt from giving an oral presentation, because they had already been told that everyone would give a presentation.  They knew that they would give their oral presentations in a class period other than Monday.

In attendance at the Summer Research Academy at UCF were approximately one hundred students.  The instructor announced, “All Summer Research Academy students will be provided with a Subway sandwich and drink.  All who are Biology majors are now dismissed.”

Did the non-Biology majors think that they would have to stay in their seats and go hungry?  No, of course not.  They had already been told that everyone would be provided with a meal.  They knew that they would be dismissed, each in his or her own turn.

The apostle Paul writes, “In Christ, all will be made alive.”  And he also writes, “All who belong to Christ will be made alive at His coming.”

Should we assume that those who are not made alive at His coming will never be made alive?

According to Francis Chan, the answer is yes.  In his book, Raising Hell, he comments on Paul’s letter, “[It] can’t mean that everyone will be saved in the end.”

Think about it.  If Paul writes, “In Christ, all will be made alive,” then why should Paul’s explanation about the order in which this reality takes place nullify his first statement?

Chan attempts to explain why, but his explanation, in my opinion, falls flat on its face if it is accompanied by a bit of scrutiny.  Chan writes,

In fact, following this verse is a whole lot of destruction: destruction of everyone and everything that opposes God in this life.  This is why Paul concludes the letter with a forceful warning that everyone who does not love Jesus will be damned.

In the previous blog, If God Swears, Then What About…, I wrote about the Greek word, apoleia, and its derivatives, which are translated into our English word, destroy, destruction, lose, or lost.  There are many scriptural references to make obvious that something apoleia or someone apoleia can be found, restored, healed, cleansed, made alive, made useful, saved, etc.  If you haven’t read it yet, you should, because Chan’s view, which lines up with the orthodox view, does not stop to consider the broader meaning of the Greek word.  They read the English words destroy or destruction and auto-think eternal torment in Hell, even though the text says no such thing.

Let’s take a look at Chan’s claim that Paul asserts “everyone who does not love Jesus will be damned”, based on Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians 16:22, “If anyone does not love the Lord – a curse be on him […]”.  Again, Chan and his orthodoxically correct buddies (yes, I just made up that word LOL) see the English word “damned” and auto-think eternal torment in Hell, even though the text says no such thing.  Let’s look at how the word is used elsewhere in the Koine Greek of the New Testament:

[…] about the temple, that with goodly stones and devoted things it hath been adorned […] Luke 21:5

[…] certain of the Jews having made a concourse, did anathematize themselves, saying neither to eat nor to drink till they may kill Paul and they were more than forty who made this conspiracy by oath, who having come near to the chief priests and to the elders said, `With an anathema we did anathematize ourselves – to taste nothing till we have killed Paul.  […]  thou, therefore, mayest thou not yield to them, for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, who did anathematize themselves – not to eat nor to drink till they kill him, and now they are ready, waiting for the promise from thee.  Acts 23:12-14, 21

[Paul speaking …] I was wishing, I myself, to be anathema from the Christ – for my brethren, my kindred […] Romans 9:3

I give you to understand that no one, in the Spirit of God speaking, saith Jesus [is] anathema, and no one is able to say Jesus [is] Lord, except in the Holy Spirit.  1 Corinthians 12:3

Clearly, the temple was not decorated with eternal torment in Hell, nor were the Jews protesting by volunteering themselves for eternal torment in Hell, nor was Paul wishing he were suffering eternal torment in Hell, nor were people saying that Jesus was suffering eternal torment in Hell.  We must not read into the word anathema what is not there.

Here is the etymology for anathema:

1520s, “an accursed thing,” from L. anathema “an excommunicated person; the curse of excommunication,” from Gk. anathema “a thing accursed,”

But here is where the etymology really gets interesting.  Pay attention, now…

originally “a thing devoted,” lit. “a thing set up (to the gods),” from ana- “up” (see ana-) + tithenai “to place,” from PIE base *dhe- “to put, to do” (see factitious).  Originally simply a votive offering, by the time it reached Latin the meaning had progressed through “thing devoted to evil,” to “thing accursed or damned.” Later applied to persons and the Divine Curse. Meaning “formal act or formula of consigning to damnation” is from 1610s.

As I have repeatedly claimed through various blogs, the Latin Vulgate translation of the Bible brought with it several key mistranslations that have made their way into the English Bibles which populate the shelves of Christian book stores, the very Bibles that people count on to communicate truth.  These errors have been the basis for God-dishonoring orthodoxy for far too long, and it is time people are exposed to it.  If you don’t believe me, then find a pre-1984 New International Version of the Bible, and look up Galatians 1:8-9 (or click the reference to view it online), which also references anathema, but translators decide to exaggerate, adding to scripture what isn’t there, in order to convey the idea of eternal torment in Hell.  As author and teacher Gary Amirault points out,

NO other English translation had the nerve to put “eternally” into these phrases in Galatians. Why? Because there is no word in these two sentences that remotely refers to eternity. The NIV translators simply took the liberty of injecting their own beliefs in eternal damnation into this passage without a shred of support from the Greek. This passage is not a unique instance in which the NIV translators took great liberty with the Greek text.

Now that Chan’s argument has fallen apart, let’s reexamine the idea that Paul is NOT saying all those whose earthly life ends without yet believing are damned to eternal torment in Hell, in contrast, Paul is asserting the order and manner in which all will be made alive:

And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead – the first-fruits of those sleeping he became, for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead, for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive, and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in his presence, then – the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power – for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet – the last enemy is done away – death.

Again, notice exactly what the work Christ accomplishes, somewhere between “those who are Christ’s, in his presence” and “the end” – Christ “made useless”, not people, but “all rule, and all authority and power”.  He does not ultimately do away with the people who “all their lives were held captive by the fear of death”, he does away with death itself!  What glorious, triumphant news!  Why the Hell would Chan want to darken it with such hopelessness?

Next blog – Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: “All = Some”

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2011 at 11:31 pm

    Why would Chan want to darken it with such hopelessness?

    Answer: Revelation 21: 8

    The Revelation of Jesus Christ ends with a populated Lake of Fire without remedy: NOBODY getting out ever.

    • Prairie October 11, 2011 at 12:24 am

      Re: Revelation 21:8 – No mention of populated, without remedy, or nobody getting out ever. It does say even the fearful will have their *part* in the lake burning with fire and brimstone. What does that mean? Are we not all guilty, have we not all been fearful? “For every one will be salted with fire.” (Mark 9:49) Our God is a consuming fire – it applies to us all.

      The enemy cannot claim a single lost sheep, because the Good Shepherd goes after her UNTIL He finds her. The enemy loses. The Savior of the world is not a loser. He *destroyed the works* of the devil at Calvary. It is finished.

      1 Corinthians 3:13, 15 – Every man’s *work* shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is…If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

      Hebrews 2:14-15 – Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And *deliver them* who through *fear of death* were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

      Matthew 3:11 – …he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.


      • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2011 at 12:41 pm

        Not only the fearful, but also the remainder described in that verse populate it along with the Devil, his angels, the False Prophet, the Beast, and all that received his mark. The Revelation gives no remedy or method of leaving it, nor does it refer to anyone ever leaving it. It was prepared for the cursed ones, Matthew 25: 41, not the saints.

        Verse six concludes “it is DONE.” After it is done the Lake of Fire is still filled with God’s trash and will be with the likes of you who pervert His Gospel. It is God’s final word on the subject.

        Believe it and repent of your lies: all LIARS will be there in the Lake of Fire.

        Born again Christians are blameless from the moment they believed and cannot be charged with fearfulness or any other sin(s) because of the Cross. Why can you not believe that? There’s NO PURPOSE in subjecting saints to the Lake of Fire, which is punitive only. There’s no support for a remedial nature of it. It was prepared for the cursed ones, Matthew 25: 41, not the saints.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2011 at 11:35 pm

    Where is the exit door in the Lake of Fire? There is none.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2011 at 11:39 pm

    There’s no exit door because nobody ever wants to leave. They all know they are where they belong.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2011 at 11:43 pm

    So the time to escape the Lake of Fire is NOW before you get there.

    • Prairie October 11, 2011 at 12:34 am

      The wages of sin is death; the soul that sins dies. Jesus tasted death for everyone. The victory has already been won. The grave has been opened and Christ Jesus has already led captivity captive. We add nothing to what Jesus has already accomplished on our behalf. We declare the victory so all the world can know the glad tidings of great joy – a Savior which is Christ the Lord.

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2011 at 12:53 pm

        Since Christ died instead of the born again Christian, the born again Christian doesn’t go through the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, because Christ doesn’t die again. That’s the “likewise reckon” of Romans 6: 11

        Unbelievers cannot benefit from what they will not receive. They burn forever right before the eyes of the triune God, whose eyes are an eternal Flame of Fire.

        See and believe.

    • Dale Ray October 11, 2011 at 1:27 am

      Excellent Alice. Thank you.

    • Daniel October 11, 2011 at 2:00 am

      Last I checked the bible doesn’t end at Revelation 21:8, there’s one more chapter =)

      Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

      The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. [Revelation 22:14,15,17].

      Besides to base your whole idea of afterlife on any verses in Revelation is a bit sketchy. There are countless interpretations of that symbolic book, whereas Paul is allot more clear,

      For (Jesus) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. [1 Corinthians 15:25,26,28]

      Hmm last enemy to be destroyed is death? But I thought God’s enemies were going to be destroyed forever by the second death? Could it be that Revelation gives us an incomplete picture that 1 Corinthians 15:21-28 completes? Just some thoughts for ya Lanny. God will be all in all, everything will be restored. There is no need to preach this fear-based badnews that people masquerade as good news.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2011 at 1:16 pm

    Those outside in verse 15 confirms the eternal state of the wicked.

    The invitation to “come” is given by the Spirit and the BRIDE, not the Wife. That takes us prior to 21: 6 “It is done” and prior to 19: 7, meaning we are returned to John’s present where and when the Bride is still the Bride. (In 19: 7 she is the Lamb’s WIFE for the first time and ever after.) So the invitation is that Gospel Invitation given today in fundamental churches around the world: come to Jesus and receive Him as your Lord and Savior. Verse 16 should have clued you that the scene has changed from heaven to earth.

    Stop twisting Scriptures to make your desired opinion supposedly supported. That is false teaching and lying and you then fit into 21: 8 and will burn forever in the Lake of Fire. Repent and believe every word of God simply as He meant it. Stop complicating His words and making confusion.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2011 at 4:15 pm

    You twist Scripture when you make 1 Corinthians 3 the Lake of Fire. Prairie, haven’t you noticed that ministry works are in the fire in 1 Corinthians, but souls are in the fire in the Lake of Fire?

    Twist and burn forever, all false teachers: all LIARS.

  • Mary Vanderplas October 11, 2011 at 8:41 pm

    I agree that Chan is misguided in his view that the 1 Corinthians 15 text is not a universalist text based on the “destruction” texts surrounding it. Even if he were right (which I don’t think he is) that 1 Corinthians 16:22 supports the doctrine of eternal torment, this would not, in my view, make the 1 Corinthians 15 text any less a universalist text. I don’t agree with his general approach of subordinating universalist texts to judgment/limited salvation texts in the interest of arguing that eternal torment is the correct view. (Nor do I agree with the approach of subordinating judgment texts to universalist ones in the interest of arguing that universal salvation is the correct view.) As I’ve said before, I think the best approach when it comes to interpreting texts that speak of the final destiny of human beings is a dialectical one, in which both universalist and limited salvation texts are allowed to stand side by side and the tension of their contradictory assertions is seen not as something to be (superficially) resolved but as a guard against embracing extreme views that fail to do justice to the whole truth concerning salvation.

    I agree that, contrary to Chan’s view, 1 Corinthians 16:22 does not support the doctrine of eternal torment. However, I don’t agree that the translation “accursed” here and elsewhere is, as you imply, a mistranslation of the Greek word introduced by later church leaders who were bent on teaching eternal torment (though, clearly, the translators who added “eternally” to the text were). While the original meaning of the word was, as you say, “what is devoted (to the divinity),” the meaning “accursed” evolved fairly early on, as evidenced by the fact that the Septuagint uses “anathema” regularly to translate the Hebrew “ban,” which often meant being accursed. Whatever the word might mean in other contexts, in the context of 1 Corinthians 16, it is, in my view, best translated “accursed.” However, I don’t agree with Chan that Paul is here giving a “forceful warning that everyone who does not love Jesus will be damned.” As some scholars point out, the words “Let anyone be accursed” likely represent a ritual pronouncement made by the church against those who perverted its message – having the effect of turning the offenders over to God for God to deal with them. It doesn’t rule out the possibility of a change of mind and reconciliation. Along the same lines, some scholars argue that the curse formula here derives from the liturgy of the Lord’s Supper, in which partakers were urged to test their faith before the meal lest any who were “unworthy” partake and thereby come under the judgment of God. The purpose was thus to call participants in the sacrament to self-examination, with the goal of change and restoration. In any case, it seems clear that Paul is not here making a statement about the damnation of those who do not love Jesus.

    While I agree that 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is a universalist text, I don’t think that it teaches a particular order by which all will be raised. I don’t see that “each in his own order” refers to anything other than Christ’s having been raised followed by “those who belong to Christ” being raised on the last day. Paul is asserting simply that the resurrection of Jesus is the beginning of the eschatological events in which all the dead are raised. Nothing is said here about there being a span of time between the return of Christ (v. 23) and the final end (v. 24). The implication is, I think, that all are raised on the last day.

    I couldn’t agree more with what you say about what happens at the end. That the final triumph of God does not entail the destruction of people but of the forces that oppose God’s reign is, indeed, “glorious, triumphant news.”

    Thanks for another uplifting and insightful blog.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2011 at 10:13 pm

    the destruction not of people but of the forces that oppose God’s reign

    Forces WITHOUT people? How can naked forces oppose God’s reign?

    Do forces without persons possess accountability, that is, morality?

    Mary, your statement sounds just as foolish as that one you made of the sixty-six chapters of Isaiah being not one writing by Isaiah, but instead written by disciples of Isaiah and Isaiah himself. Twenty-one quotes (in the four Gospels, Acts, & Romans) attest in at least ten chapters Isaiah himself is the author of it all. Since you have Isaiah in three sections, I would guess Isaiah wrote one and one disciple wrote one, and another disciple wrote another; pray tell who by name wrote which section while the quotes are sprinkled severally throughout all three sections? I don’t think you can because it is just an unbeliever’s unsupportable theory.

    I think you are totally disqualified as a reprobate by your Isaiah commentary. Even though you are disqualified, you might still get something occasionally partially right like the “each in his own order” refers to Christ having been raised followed by “those who belong to Christ”

    There is NOT one general resurrection, Mary, because Jesus spoke of TWO distinctly different ones in John 5: 28 & 29 calling them by different descriptions.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 12:11 am

    John 5: 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Now somebody is going to be swift to comment that damnation is not a proper translation, but judgment is more accurate. Both are equally accurate, but do you know why? Do you see that good people are immediately resurrected to life WITHOUT going to judgment first before rewarded with life? Do you know why? The answer is that they have already been judgED in Christ on the cross. Yes indeed: it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment; and so it will be for the unregenerate majority of humanity, but not so for the redeemed for whom Christ appears the second time without their sins unto salvation. Salvation, not judgment, it is for the good people who have believed with redeeming faith. All the evil ones stand in judgment before the Great White Throne where there is ONLY one result: cast him into the Lake of Fire. Now that’s damnation by no other name other than eternal.

    Do you see Revelation 20: 4 & 5, especially verse 5 that there is a thousand years between these TWO resurrections?

    “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.”

    Mary, please believe these Scriptures as well as the twenty-one in the first six books of the New Testament. Please give up your foolishness and become one who fully trusts the Bible to be what it says it is. All of you readers and Alice, too, be converted to the simplicity of the Gospel and give up spinning tales and complicating matters.

    God HAS GIVEN moral creatures choice with eternal consequences. It is self-evident that nothing more needs to be said.

    If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, Jesus said Luke 16: 31

    • Daniel October 12, 2011 at 1:28 am

      Lanny I will warn you once. I fear for your soul. God will not tolerate this kind of behavior toward others. You are the liar and thus you deserve the lake of fire. God will indeed judge the saints,

      For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God (1 Peter 4:17)

      For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

      You just lied up above about the saints not going through judgment! By your own words you are condemned. Stop pointing the finger you Pharisee, you cannot cast a stone because you have sinned! Hypocrite! You prey on the fear of others, when you really never realized that you are the one going to condemnation. God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power love and a sound mind. You have none of those things in your words. Love is kind, it does not boast and is not arrogant. You sit on your throne and pass judgment on people you do not know. Can you not realize your arrogance? Well did Jude prophecy of you

      Yet these people slander whatever they do not understand, and the very things they do understand by instinct—as irrational animals do—will destroy them. (Jude 1:10).

      I tell you the wrath of God is revealed against the ungodliness of men who SUPPRESS the truth by their ungodliness. By your hate and fear, you suppress the word of God, that all shall be saved, you would rather slander those you do not understand. Do you realize you insult an offspring of God?

      You are not better than I Lanny! No better! Anyone who is saved is saved by the grace of God alone, and that is the gospel! Faith is given by God, love is given by God, all good gifts come from God!

      No I do not condemn you Lanny. I forgive you for your words against me. I also ask your forgiveness for this reproof. I am not one to pass judgment on you. I simply want you to know what it feels like. Know that God loves you Lanny, he does not look for reasons to hurt people. Lamentations 3:31-33 says,

      Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
      so great is his unfailing love.
      For he does not willingly bring affliction
      or grief to anyone.

      It is by God we are saved, not by correct doctrine, it is by putting our trust in Jesus, not by the law. Do not take what I have said lightly. Those were all God’s words above (from his scriptures). There is a Lake of Fire, but it is not your place to decide who goes there. You just follow Christ.

      I warn you because I love you. Do not hold the Lake of Fire over people like blackmail, change you heart and mind, learn to love as God does in 1 Corinthians 13. We are under grace, not the law, yet I sense much legalism in you.

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 4:59 am

        2 Corinthians 5: 10 is NOT Revelation 20: 11.

        2 Corinthians 5: 10 is an evaluation of the saints’ works for rewards, not a judgment of condemnation, but rather of approval. It is similar if not the same as 1 Corinthians 3 which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Lake of Fire.

        Again, Daniel, the text of John 5: 29 contrasts the two resurrections forcefully eliminating judgment from the saints and emphatically publishes it for the wicked. No Lake of Fire for the saints, but certainly the Lake of Fire for the sinner. Saints are resurrected to LIFE not death in the Lake of Fire, called the Second Death. Get your act together ! Oh, you can’t because you’re still unregenerated. Solution: believe and be saved.

      • admin October 12, 2011 at 5:11 pm

        I think there is a huge difference between someone with bad intend who willfully lies and someone with good intent who is lacking information. In other words, I don’t think that Lanny is lying, even if what he says is not true. There’s a big difference. He believes that he is doing the right thing by writing what he writes.

        • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 7:28 pm

          Oh, Alice, Alice, Alice. What I am I going to do for you people? When you are regenerated at the very moment you believe in the blood of Christ, the FINISHED work, your sins are all GONE, removed completely, never to be ever remembered. That nulls and voids your protestant purgatory and everything that goes with it.

          Hebrews 8: 12 & 10: 17
          For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
          And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

          WHAT don’t you understand about “remember no more?” I mean, it is so simple. Why do you needlessly complicate so much?

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 4:26 am

    saved, not by correct doctrine

    Daniel, your doctrine has to be correct or you are believing the WRONG things: and that you are. Faith in what is not correct, though it be sincere faith will damn you. You are already residing in the wrath of God if you think God saves everybody because that is a lie. He doesn’t save against a person’s will and those who die without Christ will forever perish without Christ and they will agree with their reward of unbelief but not want to change. The rich man in Luke 16 didn’t want or ask to escape hell, but had enough pity for his brothers who he knew were headed there because they would NOT believe Moses and the Prophets just like he wouldn’t and didn’t. He wanted God to provide a DIFFERENT thing to believe and the “kicker” is what he wanted God did provide in Jesus: one to rise from the dead; and the mojority of mankind still will not believe what the meaning of the resurrection of Christ is.

    You and your buddies twist and distort Scripture because you cannot allow God to eternally punish the wicked period. You see eternal punishment as a wickedness instead of loving justice. Don’t you understand criminals crave punishment, both as just and as a prevention. How many have testified that they were not properly disciplined as children when they craved it as an evidence that they were loved by their parents. Love put Christ on the cross for them, but God’s hands are tied to eternal punishment by their stuibborn will because He gave them the will to choose. If they don’t choose right before they die they NEVER will choose right. How do I know? because that is the way God judges them and He has revealled His judgments to us in the Holy Bible.

    How in the world do you misunderstand the broad and narrow ways? How do you misunderstand the wicked and the righteous? There are only two kinds of people on earth and there is a way for each that doesn’t converge ever. You really need to read the Bible as a volume addressed to God’s believers. His Book is not written to unbelievers. It is the righjteous man’s manual with little to do with the wicked man. Daniel, your kind takes statements applicable to only the righteous and makes them apply to the wicked as well because they don’t know better because they are unregenerated hell-bound sinners; you too.

    • Mary Vanderplas October 12, 2011 at 6:18 am

      “Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil.”
      Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 12:48 pm

        Solzhenitsyn is NOT speaking for God with God’s words. One small bridgehead of good and a small corner of evil is no comfort at all. God’s elect seek ALL righteousness everywhere.

        Hebrews 1: 10 & 16; 2 Peter 3: 13
        For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
        But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
        Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

        God’s elect have a passion for righteousness because God has divorced them from their sins, a fact I wish you all could believe; and planted Jesus’ righteousness in their hearts. The New Covenant is that He promised to remember the elects’ sins NO MORE and gave them a new heart.

        Hebrews 8: 12 & 10: 16 & 17
        For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
        This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
        And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 1:02 pm

    God has wrought a perfect salvation for His elect people (and ONLY them) and left the non-elect to their own devices by which they perish forever. You don’t want to hear that, but you must. Also know that while God leaves them to themselves He yet cares for them as His creatures and sustains their earthly existence for their appointed time in the vanity of their corruption. Romans 1: 18 – 32 is still in the Bible.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 12, 2011 at 4:56 pm

    “made useless”, not people, but “all rule, and all authority and power” is an impossible statement, Alice, because rule, authority, and power have no FUNCTIONALITY without people. Remove the people and you have made those three useless. That’s “WHAT GOD DOES.” Segregation is a God thing: put them all in the Lake of Fire; that is His Eternal Trash Bin where He puts His then useless trash.

    You wouldn’t know, but in 1999 having read (the Mormon) Joseph Smith’s Lectures on Faith when talking of Hebrews 11: 3 he had made just a dumb statement: “God spake, chaos heard, and the worlds came into order by reason of the faith there was in Him.” I questioned as follows. #1) Did chaos have faith in God? and therefore obeyed? #2) Did God have faith in chaos expecting it to obey? #3) Is chaos intelligence that it is required to respond to God?

    I hope that Mormon thing helps illustrate how foolishly ignorant it is to make more of words than we should.

    Sorry, Mary, for missing that those words were actually taken from Alice. However, I still like to know what now is your thinking on the twenty-one New Testament quotes of Isaiah’s text with your previously stated authorship theory.

    • Mary Vanderplas October 12, 2011 at 7:40 pm

      My view of how the book of Isaiah came to be hasn’t changed. The fact that the New Testament quotes the book has no bearing, in my view, on the issue of whether it was written by one author, as you insist, or whether it was the product of a long and complex process involving a number of interpreters – perhaps a succession of disciples of the prophet – of the events of Israel’s history, as I think it was. The New Testament writers who quote Isaiah do not articulate a theory of how the book came to be. And even it can be said that they assumed that it was the composition of one author, namely the eighth century prophet by this name, this doesn’t mean, in my view, that it must be so. The New Testament writers were human beings who didn’t know everything. Aside from whether they were right or wrong, though, the real issue is whether holding the view that the book was the product of a traditioning process in any way diminishes its authority as the vehicle of God’s self-revelation. As I’ve said before, I don’t think it does.

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2011 at 12:51 am

        Questions 1 & 2
        Mary, to hold your view means Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul were liars when they claimed Isaiah himself wrote those words. Please explain how such inaccurate claims (21 of them) could be the Word of God Who cannot lie. Are the first six books of the New Testament disqualified by these false claims of ignorant superstitious men as the Word of God because they are really the doctrines of foolish men?

        Question 3
        So also now it is not just Isaiah and two disciples, but rather a succession of disciples plus interpreters also. Mary, please tell me the names of the human beings who wrote the sixty-six chapters and what portions they wrote and distinguish between disciples and interpreters, if you would, please. It will matter to me.

        “this doesn’t mean, in my view, that it must be so”
        Mary, assumed is not the word to use: they claimed Isaiah by name wrote those words and you say in your view it doesn’t matter. If that isn’t enough, twice Matthew quotes Jesus quoting Isaiah by name and once Mark quotes Jesus quoting Isaiah by name. Also John quoted John the Baptizer quoting Isaiah by name. Then it really doesn’t matter whatever else they wrote either following your view. NONE of the men: Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Jesus, or Paul; matter in your view what they said, quoted, or wrote. They all assumed whatever was traditional, regardless of the reality as you think it to be in your view.

        Question 4
        Aside from whether they were right or wrong
        It doesn’t matter to you whether they were right or wrong in whatever they wrote since they were just human beings who didn’t know everything?

        Question 5
        Don’t you see that YOU are the judge of Scripture which therefore means Scripture CANNOT judge you and you have assumed godhood? You are of your father the devil in this. Since he will burn in the Lake of Fire: like father like daughter, Mary, burn or repent giving up this foolishness.

        • Mary Vanderplas October 13, 2011 at 5:49 am

          I’ve already expressed my view concerning how the book of Isaiah came to be; and you’ve already made it clear that you do not share my view, indeed, that you think I’m all wrong and worthy of damnation because of it. Given this, what constructive purpose could my continuing to answer your questions possibly serve? Besides, your responses reveal that your questioning is motivated not by a sincere desire to know what I think, but by a desire to marshal evidence that will enforce in your mind the rightness of your verdict in the case against me. I don’t feel a need to answer (to) you, Lanny.

  • […] determines just how far “all” extends.  For example, in the previous blog, Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: The Anathema of Scrutiny, I […]

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    The purpose is to bring you to the responsible conclusion that your viewpoint of the origin of the sixty-six chapters of Isaiah as well as the rest of the Holy Bible is a denial of the God of truth by you and your sources.

    Right now you are “in denial” and not willing to face the evidence of the twenty-one quotes of seven men of God, including Jesus Christ, who testified Isaiah wrote the entire thing. You also will not face the unsupportable myth of disciples and interpreters. Then there is your doesn’t matter attitude, the height of your denial.

    You are running away from yourself and the truth of what you are. You are just an unbeliiever just like the majority of humanity, so why is that so hard to take? The sooner you face up to it, the sooner you might come to truth and repentance. If you humble yourself you might even come to salvation. How you going to be saved unless you know you are lost?

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