What Caitlyn Jenner and Josh Duggar Have in Common

What Caitlyn Jenner and Josh Duggar Have in Common

What Caitlyn Jenner and Josh Duggar Have in Common

Caitlyn Jenner and Josh Duggar have something in common. Many evangelicals/conservatives say Bruce is true and Caitlyn is false. Many secular/liberal people say fourteen-year-old Josh is true and twenty-something Josh is false.

When you love and accept someone, it doesn’t mean you’re okay with all they do. It means you choose to see the true person.

Wait a minute, you say.

Are you talking about Jenner, or are you talking about Duggar? you ask.

I’ll just let you decide. And after you’ve made your decision, God will choose to see you. The true you.

I’m tired, and I should have been in bed two hours ago. I rewrote this post several times, because each draft seemed to convey the wrong message. Hopefully, this draft comes across loud and clear. Please feel free to comment so I can gauge whether I’ve communicated the idea I’ve actually intended to communicate.


  • Edy June 4, 2015 at 12:00 am

    Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart. Since I don’t even begin to know all God knows about me, how can I understand and criticize another? All I can do is recognize we are all broken in individual ways and hope we can love each other anyway.

  • Stephen Helbig June 4, 2015 at 3:08 am

    choose to see the true person.

    That is a FAITH-FULL “choice and arrangement of words” put forth from pure grace !!!!!!!!
    The “manner and style of this expression”, is an “apt turn” denoting only that which is true, and to proclaim truth we must proclaim that which is God’s Word. So I say and proclaim “I see no man after the flesh” ~

    (14For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; (15)and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf.(16)Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (17)Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. (18)Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, (19)namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.(2 Cor. 5: 14-19)

    p.s. Christ in you the hope of Glory

    • Edy June 4, 2015 at 2:25 pm

      You found the best scripture selection for this topic, Stephen. Thank you!

    • Alice Spicer June 4, 2015 at 6:59 pm

      I agree with what Edy said about your comment.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 3:25 am

    Stephen, “no man after the flesh” is to see their condition before God as lost or saved. Jenner is lost to his own God-given identity. He is unsatisfied with what god made him and is currently in constant rebellion against God. If you need a better description, that means he’s going to hell. His immediate conduct makes that perfectly obvious. Dugger’s conduct is long ago without history to date to prove anything.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 3:26 am

    Alice, evidenced above, you will never define terms to make time dilation parameters fit the discussion Moses and Elijah had with Jesus in the intelligent hearing of His three disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration.

    Please acknowledge it doesn’t fit any more than resurrection, and you’re pulling at straws to invent any false argument to defuse my proof that everlasting torment is the real end of unbelievers. Moses and Elijah prove it. Don’t you think it is time for you to admit reality and do away with the misconception of universal reconciliation?

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 4:01 am

    Every person believing the wrong stuff burns in Hades the moment he physically dies and there awaits judgment after which he is thrown as trash into the Lake of Fire to be forever tormented without remedy. So ends the Holy Bible with a populated Lake of Fire. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ {Revelation 1: 1}. Please believe Jesus or you’re no Christian. Jesus told you in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 plus 21 -23 that the majority of humanity go to this everlasting destruction. Please believe Jesus or you’re no Christian. When Jesus prayed to His Heavenly Father in John 17: 12 He named Judas Iscariot as lost, perished, same word as John 3: 16, spoken prophetically even before Judas physically died. It is Aorist, a completed action state. Judas was not just potentially lost, but permanently lost according to Jesus, the Son of God, it was a completed state. Please believe Jesus or you’re no Christian. Since Judas is permanently lost so also is the rich man in Luke 16: 19 – 31 as told by Jesus. Please believe Jesus or you’re no Christian. It is time to clear away the misconception promoted on this site that God saves everybody, even Satan and his demons by means of the Lake of Fire convincing them to repent and believe after ages upon ages of torments. That’s Satan’s lies promoted here. The Lake of Fire is everlasting torment for everyone who enters it and there is no escape.

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 4:07 am

      The true Alice is no Christian.

    • Edy June 4, 2015 at 2:49 pm

      For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish. (Psalm 1:6) Note it is the WAY of the ungodly that perishes. It does not say the ungodly perish. By the way, Hades is a fictitious pagan story about an underworld ruled by Pluto, the ruler of the underworld in classical mythology. Why the Septuagint used the word “hades” in place of the OT “sheol” (hidden, covered, grave) in translating from Hebrew to Greek mystifies me. Doing a word search, we find the NT does have another word for “grave” namely “mnēmeion.”
      Interestingly, however, in the 1 Corinthians 15:55 statement: “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” even the KJV translators do not use the word “hell” instead of grave, although the Greek, here, is in fact “hades” elsewhere translated as “hell.” Translators as editors, I guess!

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 7:15 pm

        Edy, the way doesn’t exist without the person, so both it and the person perish together.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 8:43 pm

        Edy, 1 Corinthians 15:55 is ONLY for the godly. It has nothing to do with the ungodly.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 4:30 am

    Mary, in just a few minutes most likely you’re going to comment on Jenner, too. Are you going to lack the sensibility to see his evident rebellion against God for creating him a man? The issue Alice raises is the commonality of every human being being judged by God Who created him. Jenner is NOT accepted by God because he is still in rebellion and that rebellion is public. That may not be said of Dugger, who may be accepted by God had he repented and believed the right stuff. Only those born again the Bible way (Fundamentalism) are accepted by God. All others are rejected to hell and the Lake of Fire PERMANENTLY. What says that of you being a liberal? Or of Alice? ET

  • Mary Vanderplas June 4, 2015 at 5:04 am

    Here’s my take (with a few of my own thoughts added) on what you’re saying: Both Jenner and Duggar are being judged and written off on the basis of what people see outwardly and superficially without knowing the real person, without knowing who the person is on the inside. Only God sees us as we really are, our true selves, and loves and accepts us as we are, despite the things about us that are unlovely. God sees also the persons we are becoming by his grace. We do well to acknowledge the limits of our knowing when it comes to who each other is and to refrain from judging and condemning – leaving all judging to the One who sees and knows all, and instead choosing to love and accept one another, even when we think that another’s life choices are morally wrong.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 1:40 pm

      Mary, your thoughts aren’t Biblically balanced. Read Romans 1: 18 – 32; especially verse 26. Since God has given up on Jenner, he’s not “loved and accepted.”

      For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections.

      The last verse says Jenner is under the judgment of God and that means his sentence is everlasting torment in the unending Lake of Fire. Every person believing the wrong stuff burns in Hades the moment he physically dies and there awaits judgment after which he is thrown as trash into the Lake of Fire to be forever tormented without remedy. So ends the Holy Bible with a populated Lake of Fire. It is the Revelation of Jesus Christ {Revelation 1: 1}. Please believe Jesus or you’re no Christian.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 1:58 pm

      Jenner is still a man in his brain, so when he has sexual activity it will still be man-on-man. That’s homosexuality which is morally wrong and an abomination before God: a death sentence offense. Jenner should be put to death according to God’s rules. Since man won’t do it, God will bring evil upon Jenner until He closes his life and sends him to hades and everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire for his sins.

      Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. {Leviticus 18: 22}
      For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people. {verse 29} “Cut off” means physical death.

    • Alice Spicer June 4, 2015 at 6:54 pm

      Thanks for your comments, Mary.

      • Mary Vanderplas June 5, 2015 at 5:34 am

        I think you’re right about God seeing the true person, our truest selves, the persons we were created to be and that we are being renewed to be, persons who live in community with God and other people. However much the image of God in a person is twisted and marred by sin, it is not the case that anyone ever ceases to be what God created him to be – a person in the image of God – or that he has not been brought into a right relationship with God and his fellow human beings by God’s grace in Christ. I, too, like Stephen’s choice of the text from 2 Corinthians. I would lift up also Romans 3:21-26 – which underscores the truth of God’s acting to restore us to our true, created-for-community selves.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 5:38 am

          Dream on, Mary. God created vessels of wrat fitted for destruction. Romans 9: 22
          God doesn’t save the majority of humanity. It is not His purpose.

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 5:40 am

            God’s purpose is to glorify Himself, not save everybody. He is glorified in the contrast between the few He elected to save and those He let perish in righteous judgment.

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 5:51 am

            Mary, Reformed Theology sees the Bible as the story of redemption, the emphasis being salvation, but really the Bible is about God glorifying Himself for the benefit of those He elected to save. God is not the Great Egotist, but the great admiration of His saints.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 2:25 pm

    Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God. {Leviticus 18: 30}

    The Christian community may converse with the LGBTQ community for ministry, but never allow them acceptance as members of the Christian community, nor can the Christian community allow itself to become members of the LGBTQ community. By God’s standard the LGBTQ are a defiled people worthy of dead and extermination. The destruction Sodom and Gomorrah is the standard in both the Old and New Testaments of the Holy Bible of God’s standing judgment against homosexuality. God is not mocked.

    Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? {Psalm 139: 21} Lanny A. Eichert hates the LGBTQ community.

    • Edy June 4, 2015 at 2:58 pm

      How do you comprehend our God-given assignment, here, Lanny: “(18)Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, (19)namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.(2 Cor. 5: 14-19)” Note the word “reconciliation,” not “alienation.” We are called to be witnesses, not judges. Alienation is the absence of reconciliation. Face it, Lanny. The world is broken. We can never fix it. We can only bring the Good News of the One who “makes all things new.”

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 6:57 pm

        And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 5:01 am

        Edy & Alice, the LGBTQ community doesn’t need acceptance from the Christian community. It needs condemnation with the hope of change: their change is possible, they can go straight by the new creation which happens at conversion to Christ. Jesus without fail makes new creatures. {2 Corinthians 5: 17 & 18a}. Fundamentalists know this, but Alice rejects fundamentalism as does Mary, so neither one of them knows experientually what it means to be born again. Likely the same is true of you, Edy. Jesus said it is a “must” to be born again or you’re locked out of the kingdom of God.

        Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
        Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
        {John 3: 3 & 5}
        You can neither see nor enter the kingdom without the new birth. A lot has been wriiten on this site about the rule of God in His kingdom by Alice, this site’s administrator, but she’s neither seen nor entered God’s kingdom, so she writes ignorantly.

        Remember Jesus also spoke Matthew 7: 21 – 23
        Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
        So there are many “religious” people who think they believe in Jesus yet don’t know they don’t actually believe the right things to be saved. That’s where Alice and Mary are; and Stephen, too. I suspect you also, since you seem to spout the “love gospel.” Most of those objecting to my writing on this site are in this same camp of lost souls, and that’s why I continue to write here exposing their errors and their need for genuine conversion.

        To start with, universal reconciliation is the devil’s lie and “eternal torment”, actually everlasting torment is the real end of all unsaved souls immediately upon physical death. Only upon that realization does a person get saved.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2015 at 1:34 am

          Quoting Perry Chiaramonte, a reporter for FoxNews.com, “Homosexuals are often not only seen as harming themselves but as dire threats to society as a whole.”

          His article Death Plunge, June 06, 2015

    • Alice Spicer June 4, 2015 at 6:56 pm

      I disagree, as usual, but thanks for your comments anyhow. Don’t forget, “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 7:04 pm

        Romans 2: 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

        God determines truth, dear Alice, and He said LGBTQ is abomination, which means He utterly hates it.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 4, 2015 at 7:11 pm

          Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7}

          That’s New Testament Gospel truth, so you disagree with God. Haven’t I told you that you are rebelling against God and are no Christian?

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2015 at 12:46 am

        R BAD 4

        You are no longer what you are, but what you think you are.
        You are what you identify yourself to be.
        A white woman can now identify herself as black and claim minority status.
        Relativism has no absolute standard.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2015 at 12:03 am

          Alice, why are you so concerned about special cases. Normality needs to be ENFORCED or there’s no end to special cases. The LGBTQ community needs to “go straight” as the ONLY fix. Since it has been demonstrated they refuse the proper fix they should be made illegal and punishable by death. Extermination of “gays” is the only sensible cure for society. God demonstrated that with Sodom and Gomorrah. They are NOW proven to be a threat to American society by the old saying, “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile.” They don’t want just acknowledgment, they want privilege and with that the door must be opened to all other forms of perverted sexual expression. The way to ruin a democracy is to generate class warfare, racial warfare, gender warfare, and sexual warfare as began to happen with the civil rights movement in the 1950’s. The ’50’s opened the way the first inch and the radicals are pushing it miles wide. That way was made possible by that Enlightenment Era of which you are so fond, because it eroded Biblical authority. You are the product of that erosion and that’s why you are unable to have a perfect literal Holy Bible the way God requires for salvation. I have to tell you that you will learn by experience that your torment will be unending whether you will now believe it or not. Your unbelief doesn’t change reality, poor Alice.

          R BAD 4

          • Alice Spicer June 23, 2015 at 5:33 pm

            Alan Turing’s work helped end WWII and save an estimated 14 million lives. Society thanked him by requiring him to choose between imprisonment and chemical castration. If you had your way, he would have been put to death. Thanks to Turing, you and I are having this conversation using “digital computers.” Aren’t you glad he wasn’t executed?

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2015 at 7:22 pm

              What if he had been a serial rapist/murderer? Homosexuality is just as much a crime against society as is rape and murder. God destroyed the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah for it. You haven’t lived in Utah to know the results of incest and the raping of boys and girls in polygamy groups. It will soon be legalized because of your rationale that people who do such things are also capable of doing great things for society. A thief can steal millions from businesses, but if he distributes those millions to the needy and homeless, does that make his work any less than a crime against society? Homosexuals are the cause of the redefining of marriage and its redefinition will not stop with just them. Can’t you see polygamy is next to be legalized and after that any currently disproved unions will an issue because they are also stigmatized. Equal treatment will be required. As I wrote before the only right action is their criminnalization with the death penalty in order to exterminate the LGBTQ community. It has to be done to protect the United States of America or our great country will self-destruct.

              R BAD 4

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 23, 2015 at 7:32 pm

              What’s the matter with your god, Alice, that he’s not big enough to replace him with a straight man? If the Brits would have executed him, my God would have had another brilliant man to take his place in righteousness. That they didn’t shows they, too, didn’t have faith in God like you don’t. This is another proof you’re not saved and are under condemnation, ready to perish.

              he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 21, 2015 at 10:05 pm

        Transgender student sues school, citing restroom policy
        Published June 11, 2015 Associated Press
        A transgender teenager in Virginia is suing school officials, saying a policy requiring him to use a private restroom stigmatizes him.

        This, Alice, is where equality gets us. No longer will toilets be male and female because to be such is offensive instead of private.

        • Alice Spicer June 22, 2015 at 4:09 pm

          How would you handle the situation if you were a school official?

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2015 at 6:58 pm

            Enforce biological gender.

            • Alice Spicer June 22, 2015 at 10:05 pm

              What about hermaphrodites? What would you do with a student who has both male and female parts from birth, who biologically has both XX and XY chromosomes?

              • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2015 at 11:21 pm

                Enforce private restroom

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2015 at 11:19 pm

            Enforce private restroom.

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2015 at 11:25 pm

              This (Enforce private reatroom) was for this:
              Alice Spicer June 22, 2015 at 10:05 pm What about hermaphrodites? What would you do with a student who has both male and female parts from birth, who biologically has both XX and XY chromosomes?

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 2, 2015 at 3:02 pm

        See, Alice, what you miss by not living in Utah. Anybody with a head on their shoulders could have seen this coming and that it will not stop there but will go on to incest marriages. Not the last sentence in the article: “about people forming the families the way they want.”

        Published July 02, 2015
        Associated Press

        HELENA, Mont. – A Montana man said Wednesday that he was inspired by last week’s U.S. Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage to apply for a marriage license so that he can legally wed his second wife.

        Nathan Collier and his wives Victoria and Christine applied at the Yellowstone County Courthouse in Billings on Tuesday in an attempt to legitimize their polygamous marriage. Montana, like all 50 states, outlaws bigamy — holding multiple marriage licenses — but Collier said he plans to sue if the application is denied.

        “It’s about marriage equality,” Collier told The Associated Press Wednesday. “You can’t have this without polygamy.”

        County clerk officials initially denied Collier’s application, then said they would consult with the county attorney’s office before giving him a final answer, Collier said.

        Yellowstone County chief civil litigator Kevin Gillen said he is reviewing Montana’s bigamy laws and expected to send a formal response to Collier by next week.

        “I think he deserves an answer,” Gillen said, but added his review is finding that “the law simply doesn’t provide for that yet.”

        The Supreme Court’s ruling on Friday made gay marriages legal nationwide. Chief Justice John Roberts said in his dissent that people in polygamous relationships could make the same legal argument that not having the opportunity to marry disrespects and subordinates them.

        Collier, 46, said that dissent inspired him. He owns a refrigeration business in Billings and married Victoria, 40, in 2000. He and his second wife, Christine, had a religious wedding ceremony in 2007 but did not sign a marriage license to avoid bigamy charges, he said.

        Collier said he is a former Mormon who was excommunicated for polygamy and now belongs to no religious organization. He said he and his wives hid their relationship for years, but became tired of hiding and went public by appearing on the reality cable television show “Sister Wives.”

        The three have seven children of their own and from previous relationships.

        “My second wife Christine, who I’m not legally married to, she’s put up with my crap for a lot of years. She deserves legitimacy,” he said.

        Collier said he sent an email asking the ACLU of Montana to represent him in a possible lawsuit. ACLU legal director Jim Taylor said he has not seen the request.

        Taylor said he has no opinion on Collier’s claims, though the Supreme Court decision on gay marriage “is about something very different.”

        Anne Wilde, a co-founder of the polygamy advocacy organization Principle Voices located in Utah, said Collier’s application is the first she’s heard of in the nation, and that most polygamous families in Utah are not seeking the right to have multiple marriage licenses.

        “Ninety percent or more of the fundamentalist Mormons don’t want it legalized, they want it decriminalized,” Wilde said.

        A federal judge struck down parts of Utah’s anti-polygamy law two years ago, saying the law violated religious freedom by prohibiting cohabitation. Bigamy is still illegal.

        The state has appealed the ruling, and the case is pending in the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

        Wilde said most polygamous families are satisfied with the judge’s ruling and believe taking it further to include multiple marriage licenses would bring them under the unwanted jurisdiction of the government.

        But she said the Supreme Court’s decision on gay marriage should strengthen their chance of winning the appeal.

        “We hope the Supreme Court decision will show the direction the nation is going,” she said. “It’s more liberal, it’s more understanding about people forming the families the way they want.”

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 2, 2015 at 5:21 pm

          Rally and push the “gays” back in the closet where they belong.
          Parade with the sign I’ve indicated below.

          R BAD 4

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 5:32 am

    So, Alice, you’re still using the same excuse to not provide how the parameters of the THEORY of time dilation apply to the discussion Moses and Elijah had with Jesus and His three disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration hundreds of years after their passing from mortal life, or how it even makes a difference that their presence proves post-mortem intelligent consciousness examplifying the reality of the rich man and Lazarus proving everlasting torment for every lost soul immediately upon physical death.

    I’m tired, and I should have been in bed two hours ago.

    Why don’t you end the conflict by writing that it just doesn’t fit? Admit M & E prove “eternal torment.” Please clear away the misconception of universal reconciliation. Please clear away the misconception propogated by you that torment has an end.

    • Alice Spicer June 5, 2015 at 3:21 pm

      So, Lanny, you’re still beating this dead horse?

      • Stephen Helbig June 5, 2015 at 6:19 pm

        🙂 ;( 🙂

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 7:36 pm

        Alice, admit M & E prove “eternal torment” and you don’t have a leg to stand on. You can make time dilation fit any more than you could make resurrection fit. You’re the dead one on this one. You’re not participating. You’re chicken to admit it.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 7:38 pm

          No, you can’t make TD fit at all.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 8:07 pm

        Alice, all you want to do is START trouble and run away. That’s why Pastor Mike Adkins wants a sit down session with you, because you will not dialogue on line when it gets to details that prove anything. I’ve proven that in this so-called dialogue. When things don’t go your way you will not procede. Yours is only a one way dialogue. I’ve given you ample opportunities to change that, yet all you do is continue suggesting a conflict without details, leaving me to guess and carry on the discussion from there. You wrote about “meat” but never produce any. You site is just a smoke screen full of hot air only. If you want it to amount to something, you need to change that. Right now all you are is a complainer without substance. That should be obvious to even your friendly readers who are patting you on the back for having the guts to lay out “your problem.”

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2015 at 8:50 pm

    So, how about a change, Alice, and show me how you’re going to make the parameters of the theory of time dilation fit the discussion on the Mount of Transfiguration in a way that prevents Moses and Elijah from proving pre-resurrection post-mortem intelligent consciousness that verifies unbelievers burn forever from the moment they leave this mortality. You do realize, don’t you, that your figurative interpretation of the rich man and Lazarus is at stake? Because of Moses and Elijah being literally there, the rich man is literally consciously tormented in flames and your universal reconciliation is up in flames while everlasting torment survives.

    • Alice Spicer June 6, 2015 at 12:26 am


      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2015 at 1:53 am

        Alice Spicer March 10, 2015 at 5:10 pm Interesting point. I’m itching to respond to this, but I’m working late… I’ll get back to you.

        Far from the truth, poor Alice.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2015 at 4:14 pm

        Four more days and it is three months and counting. When are you going to clear away these misconceptions you created for this blog site? When are you going to tell these folks what God really does to departed unbelievers?

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2015 at 3:04 am

      Come on, Alice. What are you figuring? How far did they have to come to be there on the Mount of Transfiguration? Where were they? Three to fifteen feet below ground in Sheol and not even hundreds of miles away? How are you going to calculate nearly a 1,500 years deviation in elapsed time for Moses and nearly 900 years deviation in elapsed time for Elijah, both from the elapsed time of the conversation heard by the three disciples? How do you know from where and when they left and what was their travel times and distances? Where are you getting your figures to do the math? I suspect all your numbers are much much smaller than your airplane example, aren’t they, and it yielded a difference of only nanoseconds. That’s why I’m telling you that you don’t have a case. Prove me wrong, but you won’t, will you? You just sit there and sigh. That’s not clearing away misconceptions, which you are supposed to be doing. Why then shouldn’t I call your site a gaint lie? Stop me by denouncing universal reconciliation and confessing everlasting torment. Get some honesty, will you?

      After all of that, do those parameters really apply to the actual intelligent conversation witnessed by the three disciples? If they do, explain why. If not, find some that do, if you can.

      • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2015 at 4:02 pm

        Alice, I’ll give you a hint. How they got to the Mount is NOT the issue; their conversation is. Notice how much emphasis I have placed on their intelligent dialogue and when in their personal histories it occurred (after mortality, but before resurrection). That’s the problems you need to wrestle with. TD doesn’t help you there. The fact that between mortality and resurrection they had intelligent conversation verifies the rich man’s conversation with Father Abraham while in the torments of Hades. Luke 16: 19 – 31 That’s what proves everlasting torment and ruins universal reconciliation, dear Alice. It is no parable and it came straight out of Jesus’ mouth.

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