Don’t Throw in the Towel, County Clerks

Don’t Throw in the Towel, County Clerks

Don’t Throw in the Towel, County Clerks

You may have seen these headlines:

Entire County Clerk Office Resigns Over Same-Sex MarriageSame-sex marriage leads Grenada Circuit Clerk to resign, Arkansas County Clerk Resigns So She Doesn’t Have To Issue Same-Sex Marriage Licenses, or similar stories.

A while back, I wrote a blog post presenting the hypothetical scenario we now see playing out, with one minor difference. I wrote:

Can employees who oppose gay marriage refuse to issue marriage licenses? Yes, they can. Again, they would lose their jobs, but no one can force them to complete the paperwork.

If believers say, “We oppose gay marriage,” yet they choose to prepare marriage licenses for gay couples, what kind of message does this send?

The message I hear is: I oppose gay marriage when it is convenient and safe for me to oppose gay marriage, but my moral conviction to oppose gay marriage crumbles when my paycheck is at stake. Therefore, my moral conviction isn’t as convincing as I say it is.

The minor difference is that the clerks are resigning. Granted, this is a form of opposition, and although I don’t necessarily share their convictions, I do respect their decision to do what they believe is the right thing to do. But one thing that really frustrates me is that this conflict isn’t allowed to reach its logical conclusion. In other words, I want to see clerks refuse to issue same-sex licenses and have their employment TERMINATED.

No, I don’t get my jollies seeing people lose their jobs. Let me explain.

There’s a higher purpose in all of this.

Making a personal decision to give up your job ≠ having your job taken away from you against your will.

The former doesn’t allow the natural consequences of the Supreme Court decision to unfold. There is no outcry, because there is no injustice when one, of his or her own volition, decides to resign. The former doesn’t beg any question, but the latter begs the question, “Should it be legal for a county clerk to lose his or her job for refusing to do something that violates his or her First Amendment rights?” Specifically,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…

In my opinion, the free exercise of religion includes making decisions and choices that reflect one’s religion, including the refusal to participate in activities against which one morally objects. I haven’t taken the time to research the religion of each of the people in the articles above, but in two of the articles, a specific appeal to the authority of the Bible is mentioned.

I imagine (or hope, at least) that the LGBTQ community, having first-hand knowledge of what it feels like to be denied their constitutional rights for so long, would disapprove of the termination of employment for county clerks who do not comply with the Supreme Court decision. As long as they can get a marriage license from a clerk without moral objections, isn’t that what really matters? Isn’t it possible to find a way to allow both the LGBTQ community AND county clerks to maintain their constitutional rights?

If county clerks keep quitting their jobs, we may never know.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 4, 2015 at 3:07 am

    The following is quoted from the Mormon Church website:

    A family built on marriage of a man and a woman is the best setting for God’s plan of happiness to thrive. That is why communities and nations generally have encouraged and protected marriage between a man and a woman, and the family that results from their union, as privileged institutions. Sexual relations outside of such a marriage are contrary to the laws of God pertaining to morality.

    Changes in the civil law do not, indeed cannot, change the moral law that God has established. God expects us to uphold and keep His commandments regardless of divergent opinions or trends in society. His law of chastity is clear: sexual relations are proper only between a man and a woman who are legally and lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

    Alice, I repeat: Push the “gays” back in the closet where they belong. Everybody needs to parade with the sign I’ve indicated below. Push the “gays” back in the closet where they belong.
    R BAD 4

    (The only “good gay” is a dead one.)

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 4, 2015 at 3:46 am

    Alice, you miss the point of avoiding a law suite that takes the believer’s money and gives it to the LGBTQ person. Quitting the job avoids paying my own hard earned cash to abominal people who have absolutely no right to live. It is not the municipality (the employer) who is sued, but the individual clerk who represents the municipality. That’s the uncorrected error. The clerk is just taking himself out of harm’s way when he quits his job and that is proper, since his employer will not protect him. We’ve seen in recent years a shift in responsibility. It once was that an employer whose employee caused him a loss, bore that as a company loss, but employees are now being made personally responsible for any losses their conduct causes their employers. That’s morally corrupt leaving the employee without any protection and the employer without any risk.

  • Mary Vanderplas July 4, 2015 at 5:53 am

    I see your point about it being unconstitutional for people to be forced to do something that violates their religious freedom. There’s a difference, though, between exercising one’s religious freedom and imposing one’s religious beliefs on others. Where religious liberty impinges on the rights of others – in this case the right of same-sex couples to marry – the liberty goes too far. Those who oppose same-sex marriage on moral grounds are free to vocalize their objections and to refuse personally to acknowledge or support gay marriages. But they are not free to act in ways that disallow gays the right to marry. Those whose jobs entail issuing marriage licenses who refuse to do so for religious reasons should, I think, be terminated. Such is not a violation of their constitutional right to religious freedom, but an acknowledgement that the right to religious freedom does not mean that the religious beliefs of some should be allowed to deny others their rights.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 4, 2015 at 1:20 pm

      Mary, not supporting gay marriages means not issuing them licenses and that’s disallowing gays to marry, isn’t it? You wrote a contradiction, haven’t you?

      • Mary Vanderplas July 5, 2015 at 5:09 am

        Those who oppose gay marriage on religious grounds are not free to discriminate based on the gender of the individuals in a marriage in ways that deny them their civil and legal rights. Refusing to issue a marriage license is a denial of the persons’ legal and civil rights. But they are free to express verbally their opposition and in other ways to say by their actions that they do not support gay marriage.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 5, 2015 at 5:38 pm

          Mary, gender is the major discriminator today for refusing a marriage license on the basis of definition. Males and females are not equal. A female is incapable of replacing a male and neither is a male capable of replacing a female. Two females do not equal a male and female; neither do two males equal a male and a female. Gender is a reality that cannot be disputed. Gender exists. Gender neutral marriage does not exist. Same sex “marriage” is a perversion of language and is incapable of natural reproduction. Play acting is not reality. LGBTQ behavour is insanity, perversion, make-believe, and departure from real life. We are beginning to see world-wide insanity as the popular way of life and it will lead to the anarchy predicted of the last days in the Holy Bible when self-love rules the world.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2015 at 4:41 pm

          Mary, consider the following Scripture from Ephesians 5: 3 – 7 and 1 Timothy 5: 20 – 22 and again Ephesians 5: 11

          But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

          Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men’s sins: keep thyself pure.

          And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

          Are you unable to see that he who holds these texts binding upon himself, if he were to issue a license to a homosexual couple to marry each other, he grants his approval as a municipal employee and as a municipal employee participates in their sins. Is it a possibility that a Christian is able to be a municipal employee WITHOUT being a Christian employee? Don’t you see that’s Alice’s point? Christianity to be real must be 24/7. Is the homosexual agenda the proving ground for true Christianity? Why did Herod have John the Baptizer’s head brought to him without the rest of John B? You see, shacking up didn’t publically raise the Christian objection, so the issue now is will “gay rights” do it? If not, what’s next? Polygamy?

    • Alice Spicer July 12, 2015 at 8:42 pm

      I would agree with you except that the job description and duties for these clerks changed from the time they were hired. For the new-hires, this would be reasonable policy, but for those who were already employed, maybe they could just find a way to accommodate everyone involved so that no one is denied their rights and no one loses their livelihood.

      • Mary Vanderplas July 15, 2015 at 5:49 am

        You’re right. It wouldn’t be fair to let them go. It would be better to reassign them to a position with comparable pay that didn’t require violating their convictions, giving them the option of accepting the new position or resigning and looking elsewhere.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 15, 2015 at 2:55 pm

          Alice & Mary, I’m curious to know if you remember singing this hymn from the Presbyterian hymnal?
          Do you know what text of Scripture inspired it?

          O Jesus, Thou Art Standing

          William W. How, 1823-1897 ST. HILDA Justin Knecht, 1752-1817 and Edward Husband, 1843-1908

          O Jesus, Thou art standing, Outside the fast closed door,
          In lowly patience waiting To pass the threshold o’er:
          Shame on us, Christian brothers, His Name and sign who bear,
          O shame, thrice shame upon us, To keep Him standing there!

          O Jesus, Thou art knocking – And lo! that hand is scarred,
          And thorns Thy brow encircle, And tears Thy face have marred:
          O love that passeth knowledge, So patiently to wait!
          O sin that hath no equal, So fast to bar the gate!

          O Jesus, Thou art pleading In accents meek and low,
          “I died for you, My children, And will ye treat Me so?”
          O Lord, with shame and sorrow We open now the door:
          Dear Savior, enter, enter, And leave us never more!

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 15, 2015 at 3:09 pm

            Alice, does your mom know the song? I found it in five of my church hymnals from the fifties through the seventies copyrighted. I learned it in my youth.

            • Alice Spicer July 17, 2015 at 10:58 pm

              I don’t recognize it. I haven’t spent much time in the Presbyterian church. I don’t know whether Mom knows it. Maybe Mary can ask her.

  • Stephen Helbig July 5, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    There’s a higher purpose in all of this.

    Yes, I too see a higher purpose in all of this for mankind. There is a perfecting, (a teleios), for us according to God’s plan for the ages concerning man; and through an unfolding of line upon line and precept upon precept we will move to see God’s Kingdom, and also know of His Increase upon His shoulders. We all are being transformed into His image from glory to glory, and because of this Alice, I cannot agree totally with your last statement of, ~ “If county clerks keep quitting their jobs, we may never know.”

    To see the finished work of God is the true peace which passes all understanding, and we will shout and Amen, ~ To God be ALL THE GLORY. ~ In this I an not disregarding the wrestling to be done? ~, NO ~ But the fight of faith is called “GOOD” because it is already won, ~ We must continue to fight the GOOD FIGHT of faith and to take hold of the Eternal Life of which we have been called, for God commanded the Blessing, even LIFE forevermore as seen ~ Psalm 133 ~ Mount Zion is truly the JOY of all the earth, and to this we have been called.

    • Alice Spicer July 12, 2015 at 8:44 pm

      Yeah, I agree. We’ll know. It was a poor choice of words. How about, we may never know, this side of the grave?

      • Stephen Helbig July 13, 2015 at 8:58 am


  • Lanny A. Eichert July 7, 2015 at 1:55 am

    Alice, When are you and your friends going to face the present reality of the destruction of our nation because God’s perfect literal Holy Bible is being ignored for personal pleasure? Push the “gays” back in the closet where they belong. Everybody needs to parade with the sign I’ve indicated below and push the “gays” back in the closet where they belong.

    R BAD 4

    (The only “good gay” is a dead one.)

    This is not a case of “you’re okay and I’m okay” but Authority says what is and isn’t okay. Authority has spoken in a written Book called the Holy Bible. Authority KNOWS what’s right and wrong, because Authority is our Creator. Authority is God and He is personal. We are personal because He created us in His image. Since He created us, we are responsible to Him. It doesn’t matter who refuses to believe He is, they are still responsible to Him. That’s the message all humanity needs to be FORCED to hear whether or not they think it “disrespects and subordinates them.” Let them feel the disapproval of God now before they feel the wrath of God.

    He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. {Psalm 2: 4 & 5}

    Vexation and derision result from defining words incorrectly and trying to make that redefinition the law of the land. You, your site, and your friends are trying to promote a false god that loves those that hate God, because you all refuse to believe God disposes unbelievers into the everlasting torment of the Lake of Fire. You refuse to face the post-mortem pre-resurrection Moses’ and post-mortem pre-resurrection Elijah’s intelligent active conversation on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus in the real-time presence of His three disciples PROVES the literalness of the rich man’s fiery torment in Hell and Lazarus’ bliss in Abraham’s Bosom and ruins your Universal Reconciliation and denial of eternal torment.

    It is almost four months past time to come clean and honest, dear Alice, if you’d keep the so-called purpose of your site: “clearing away misconceptions”, by confessing UR is false and ET is real. WHEN are you going to do it or shall I proclaim you a BIG FAT LIAR now and again and again?

    R BAD 4

    (The only “good gay” is a dead one.)

    • Alice Spicer July 9, 2015 at 10:33 pm

      If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2015 at 11:11 pm

        Alice is a big fat liar because love speaks the truth and the truth is homosexuality is an abomination to God and that’s an absolutely hated thing. God absolutely hates homosexuality and those who practice it. That is a loving statement to make to an homosexual person because it warns them of judgment/condemnation to come, everlasting torment; and if they wish to avoid it they better start believing every word as it is spelt in God’s perfect literal Holy Bible.

        Alice is a big fat liar because she will not do according to the purpose of her web site: Clearing Away Misconceptions.

        • Mary Vanderplas July 10, 2015 at 5:59 am

          Shut your big, fat mouth, Lanny Eichert. Your bashing of fellow human beings makes me sicker than sick. You’re the least God-honoring person I’ve ever known.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 10, 2015 at 10:12 am

            You miss the points, Mary, that Alice made (July 9, 2015 at 10:33 pm ) above and in her blog article. She says Christian convictions must be proven by consistent behavior and hers are by conducting her site as a demonstration of love toward gays and teaching those who fear hell fire that it isn’t real. She’s wrong on both accounts as I’ve shown. Love toward gays doesn’t hide the fact of their condemnation and “eternal” torment is real. Above that (July 7, 2015 at 1:55 am) I had threatened to use the common terminology “big fat liar” as to describe her promotion of lies and I followed through. You are taking it that I am attacking her person when I am referencing her reluctance to come clean and honest. Her quote of 1 Corinthians 13: 1 is both her defense and her accusation against me for being unloving.

            R BAD 4

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 10, 2015 at 5:06 pm

              Alice thinks hell fire is real but isn’t everlasting. I better clarify my generalization before she does.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 10, 2015 at 10:28 am

            Mary, “bashing of fellow human beings” is the application of “peer pressure” which applied to gays is calling them queers which was effective in “our day” to keep them in the closet, but now they attempt to legitimize the slur and make it ineffective. Nevertheless they are still unnatural and perverts of God’s order and morality. They are “unacceptable” persons and rejects of rational society.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 10, 2015 at 2:21 pm

        Okay, Mary, let me use Alice’s words and call her a noisey clanging cymbal and annoying gong because she’s gone off half cocked and lopsided. She refuses to face the truth of Moses’ and Elijah’s conscientious up-to-date conversation with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration in the intelligent hearing of His disciples as it proves the literalness of the rich man and Lazarus proving everlasting torment of unbelievers and the everlasting bliss of believers as Jesus’ teaching. Her point in making the rich man and Lazarus a parable is the denial of eternal torment. Moses and Elijah ruins her claim of it being a parable and verifies it as a true life account given by Jesus Who is certainly “in-the-know” about such things. Peter, James, and John having verified the presence of Moses and Elijah were then certainly educated to the certainty of the intelligent conscious post-mortem existence of the physically dead. Those three, plus Jesus, plus the Gospel writers Matthew, Mark, and Luke make a perfect number of seven witnesses which Alice refuses to hear. She will be judged according to knowledge if she doesn’t repent and believe the right stuff before she physically dies. In that case she’ll burn in everlasting torment. Meanwhile she has sufficient information to confess UR is absolutely wrong and ET is absolutely right. Because her site claims to clear away misconceptions and she knows UR is misconceived as well as her denial of ET is also misconceived, since she will not make that a public confess on her site, she is just a noisey clanging cymbal and annoying gong. The same goes for her false loving attitude toward gays. If a person is about to swallow poison, it is NOT loving to tell them they have a right to do so and that’s okay. Yet that is exactly the position she has taken. They need to be told emphatically that their life-style is abomination before God and they will burn in hell for it if they don’t give it up before they physically die. No gay goes to heaven except they get converted to Jesus and holiness before they physically die. Holiness is the absence of homosexuality.

        R BAD 4

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2015 at 1:34 am

    endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Alice, those “rights” have been “endowed” by the Creator and the Creator has defined homosexuality as “abomination” punishable by death in both segments of His perfect literal Holy Bible. The Declaration of Independence mandates the LGBTQ community as a threat to society because it references the “Christian” God as the source of human rights. To suspect otherwise is to ignore the history of the colonization of the U. S. A. and view the document out of context.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2015 at 12:01 am

    Dear readers, you know how Alice insists the New Testament emphasizes love over the harshness of the Old Testament Law, yet she fails to publish how Jesus and His disciples made the Law even more demandingly applicable to the moral state of man following the incarnation and the cross bringing humanity into greater accountability and responsibility than ancient times. Look carefully at the following text from 1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 11

    Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    nor homosexuals, nor sodomites
    male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality
    passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals
    nor effeminate, nor sodomites (YLT)
    nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men

    Notice how they are EXCLUDED from the KINGDOM OF GOD, because they are included in the list of “the unrighteous” and that means called no good or bad. LGBTQ are “bad boys” and “bad girls” in no uncertain terms. Alice, do you see that if you think the church is in the kingdom of God, LGBTQ’s are outside the church and the church is not to allow them membership? They cannot inherit membership. Such is impossible from these first two verses, right?

    Notice the first part of verse 11. “And such were some of you.” What verb tense is “were”? It is PAST tense. Yes, the LGBTQ can be saved and when they are the cease their LGBTQ activity. They are no longer LGBTQ, but are saints living in victory over the sins of the LGBTQ life-style. Only those who have left the LGBTQ life-style are admitted to church membership. That is the meaning of verse 11, isn’t it, Alice? Isn’t it, Mary?

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2015 at 12:45 am

      The purpose of the Gospel is to save people FROM their sins in this life, here and now to have victory over sins and live sin-free. The Gospel is not just fire insurance from hell; it is the saving of a mortal life for the service of God. It is returning a human life back to its designed purpose. That purpose, one specific regarding gender, is heterosexuality ONLY within the boundary of mature marriage. As a young male adult God saved me to marry a wife in my virginity and her virginity, that I might enjoy all the proper pleasures of marriage and to serve God purely through a local church congregation remembering Christ’s death for my sins celebrating the Lord’s Supper with His local saints. Poor Alice is not saved and enjoying what God has designed because she has rebelled against Biblical and church authority. Most of her friends are her friends because they are in the same boat as she and sadly just as unfulfilled. If they don’t get saved the Fundamental Baptist way, well you know, they’ll burn forever without remedy, because so ends the Holy Bible’s story, the Gospel. Physical death terminates God’s offer of salvation as has been proven by Moses’ and Elijah’s conversation on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. Alice continues to refuse to face that face, wants to believe her lie and teach it to you, too. Poor, poor Alice, a big fat liar telling you she is clearing away misconceptions, rather than telling you the truth that she misconceives her ideas for emotional reasons. She’s got a lot of lovely people she thinks she can’t face have gone to hell and are right now burning in torments which will never end. She’s in denial of the truth that there’s no remedy for them. She’s to be pitied for saying she believes the Bible which she actually doesn’t and lies to herself about doing so.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    Bruce Jenner will go straight to hell the moment he physically dies and he will burn forever in the Lake of Fire. Don’t you see him described near the end of verse 9 as “those who make women of themselves”? Here’s something you can know for certain, just as certainly as you can know the rich man of whom Jesus spoke in Luke 16 will burn forever without remedy; and the same of Judas Iscariot who betrayed Jesus to the Romans {John 17: 12}.

    Do ye not know that unrighteous persons shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who make women of themselves, nor who abuse themselves with men, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor abusive persons, nor the rapacious, shall inherit the kingdom of God. {1 Corinthians 6: 9 & 10 DBY}

    You can know for sure who will never get out of the Lake of Fire. Read the Holy Bible and believe it.

    R BAD 4

    Since God hates them, so should you if you would be God’s friend.

  • Alice Spicer July 12, 2015 at 8:54 pm

    You are not lukewarm. No one could ever accuse you of that. The funny/sad thing is that you really do allow what you believe to permeate into the way you think and treat others. I would rather that all believers who hold to your doctrines do just as you do, Lanny. That way the ugly fruit of those doctrines (as is evidenced in your regular comments) would be obvious to everyone. Instead, most believers who hold to your doctrines put those doctrines out of their minds, because they are terribly inconvenient and uncomfortable to apply to everyday life and relationships.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2015 at 11:15 pm

      Alice, there’s no ugly fruit to truth. The doctrine of everlasting torment is sweet to those whom God avenges. God’s children cannot help proclaiming the truth and for that the world hates them and does them wrong. God avenges that with, as you call it, eternal torment. For His children that is sweet revenge because it is God’s severe work. God wins against the world. God is glorified in justice and justice He will have. Where’s His love, you ask? Toward His Elect, is the answer. He chose to save the few and leave the many to their own corrupt desires: you to your heresies and rebellion against His church. You’re headed to hell, Alice, since you’re not inclined to get this right by depending upon God’s perfect literal Holy Bible. I’ve shown you for four months now that Moses’ and Elijah’s Transfiguration conversation with Jesus proves ET and refutes UR and yet you continue to refuse it. You’re not dead yet in the body and have time to repent, but who knows for how long? God will one day say He’s had enough of you and throw you to Everlasting Fire. If you want to be loving tell the same to the LGBTQ people. Their and your only escape is conversion NOW in this life. Physical death ends God’s offer.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2015 at 11:47 pm

      2 Kings 5: 18 In this thing the LORD pardon thy servant, that when my master goeth into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leaneth on my hand, and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon: when I bow down myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon thy servant in this thing.

      Here, Alice, is perhaps the way some good Christians will escape the persecution that’s coming to the U. S. of A. and remain unnoticed. Any person can Google my name and they will find out what I have written on your site against liberal Christians and the LGBTQ plus other sites like the Daily Herald newspaper which has long ago banded my comments. They can get my address and serve me with a law suite for emotional suffering caused by what they think are mean-spirited words, even hate speech, since I often use the word hate. It is not likely that I will escape being brought to pennylessness, given the new way of thinking about these things. You wanted evidence that Christians believe their convictions. What more do you need: your daddy sold all and is preaching the Gospel in remote areas and now you want others to demo by loosing jobs and net worths. Your type are worse than bloodthirsty. You will be left without an honest witness when the Rapture comes; you will have just a strong delusion that you might more fully believe the devil’s lies. {2 Thessalonians 2: 11} And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. You will be “left behind” and will not be ABLE to be saved. Then your doom will be assured in the everlasting Lake of Fire. Burn miserably thereafter without remedy.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 13, 2015 at 1:29 am

        Is that what you want, Alice, to be be so strongly deluded that you cannot be saved? If that came to you you will loose you ability to believe the truth. With no ability to believe the truth it will be impossible for you to get saved. That’s the fault in the Left Behind series of movies: in the movie those left behind knew the Gospel and believed it because they were left behind. That will NOT happen according to verse 11. Their knowledge of the Gospel will get so warpped by the “strong delusion” that they will loose the proper understanding of the Gospel. Right now your understanding of the Gospel is terribly warpped by your heresies that you are unable to recognize the Fundamental Gospel. You even refuse to turn to your daddy’s sending church to learn what it is. That’s how corrupted UR has made you. Your emotions have ruined your want of the truth. Alice, faith is believing what God has said. What He said is written in the Book He wrote called the Holy Bible and the Book is perfect and literal. All God wants you to do is believe Him: that means believe His Book. It means trading your emotions for His words. Please do it before it is too late for you. It will be too late after the Rapture and the Rapture can take place any time now especially since the world has gone radically pro-gay and Radical Islam is out of control.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 13, 2015 at 1:49 am

          Alice, if you won’t go to your dad’s church, there’s always your daddy to ask. Ask him to help you believe. Ask him to help you get saved. That his faith might be in his very own daughter.

        • Alice Spicer July 14, 2015 at 10:07 pm

          Even you don’t literally believe every word written in the book, Lanny. No one does. They may think they do, but they don’t.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2015 at 10:49 pm

            That doesn’t excuse you.

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 15, 2015 at 1:07 am

            Alice, you said Moses and Elijah were there (on the Mount of Transfiguration). You believe that. You didn’t say “figuratively” there, you said there. So what were they DOING there. You know they were rationally talking with Jesus fully aware of what He had been teaching and what was about to happen in Jerusalem, meaning His death, because they knew prophecy. I am sure you are able to determine how many years it had been since Moses died and Elijah was taken up by God’s chariot. I am also sure you know Jesus must first died before He could be resurrected AND that Jesus must be the FIRST to be resurrected before anybody else can be resurrected. You are smart enough to know then that neither Moses nor Elijah had been resurrected when they were there talking with Jesus before His death. You must, therefore on the basis of this knowledge which you know and believe, conclude Moses and Elijah had many hundreds of years of post-mortem conscientious awareness and since these two did, so does everybody who dies have post-mortem conscientious awareness from the moment of their physical death to the present. That means the two post-mortem men of whom Jesus detailed in Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazarus) experienced literally exactly what Jesus said they did. Since the rich man suffered torments in the flame of hell, so all unbelievers will do likewise, proving everlasting torment and ruining universal reconciliation. You are half way to believing what you should: the torment of the Lake of Fire never ends and has no post-mortem remedy. DO IT NOW. BELIEVE IT.

      • Alice Spicer July 14, 2015 at 10:09 pm

        I haven’t expected them to do anything I haven’t already done myself. God provides. It all works out for good.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2015 at 10:48 pm

          It all works out for your destruction, Alice, and you would not think of that as good if you were sane. Haven’t I told multiple times you that you are insane to deny ET and claim UR? Moses and Elijah prove it of you.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 3, 2015 at 2:33 pm

    Judge orders Kentucky clerk to jail for refusing to issue marriage licenses for gay couples
    Published September 03, 2015 • Associated PressFacebook497 Twitter317 Email Print
    Sept. 1, 2015: Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis listens to a customer following her office’s refusal to issue marriage licenses at the Rowan County Courthouse in Morehead, Ky. (AP)
    A federal judge ordered a defiant county clerk to jail for contempt Thursday after she insisted that it would violate her conscience to follow court orders to issue marriage licenses to gay couples.

    Rowan County clerk Kim Davis and her deputy clerks were summoned to appear before U.S. District Judge David Bunning after she repeatedly denied them marriage licenses, cited her religious beliefs and “God’s authority.”

    The judge said his only alternative was to jail her because he did not believe she would comply with his order even if she were fined. She was escorted out of his courtroom by a deputy, although not in handcuffs, to be turned over to the custody of federal marshals.

    Hundreds of people outside the courthouse chanted and screamed, “Love won! Love won!”

    Kim Davis testified about 20 minutes and was very emotional. She described how she became a Christian and said she is unable to believe anything else.

    April Miller, one of the women trying to obtain a license, also testified. She said she voted for Kim Davis in the election and that this was only about getting her license, not about trying to change Davis’ beliefs.

    In front of the federal courthouse, demonstrators shouted at each other, sang hymns and waved signs, which ranged from the violent — turn to Jesus or burn — to simple statements of support. A small plane flew over the courthouse, carrying a banner that said: “Stand Firm Kim.”

    Davis stopped issuing licenses to all couples in June after the U.S. Supreme Court effectively legalized gay marriage. Despite rulings against her, she’s turned away couples again and again.

    The couples who originally sued in the case asked Bunning to punish Davis with fines but not jail time.

    Davis, an Apostolic Christian, said earlier this week she never imagined this day would come.

    “I have no animosity toward anyone and harbor no ill will. To me this has never been a gay or lesbian issue. It is about marriage and God’s word,” her statement said.

    Her critics mock this moral stand, noting that Davis is on her fourth husband after being divorced three times.

    Davis served as her mother’s deputy in the clerk’s office for 27 years before she was elected as a Democrat to succeed her mother in November. Davis’ own son is on the staff.

    As an elected official, she can be removed only if the Legislature impeaches her, which is unlikely in a deeply conservative state.

    Judge Bunning is the son of Jim Bunning, the Hall of Fame pitcher for the Detroit Tigers and Philadelphia Phillies who served two terms as Kentucky’s junior U.S. Senator. Former Republican President George W. Bush nominated David Bunning for a lifetime position as a federal judge in 2001 when he was just 35 years old, halfway through his dad’s first term in the Senate.

    But Bunning has been anything but a sure thing for conservative causes. In 2007, he was part of a three-judge panel on a federal appeals court that overturned Michigan’s ban on partial-birth abortion. The panel ruled the state’s law was too broad and would outlaw other legal forms of abortion.

    In 2003, Bunning ordered the Boyd County School District to allow the student club Gay-Straight Alliance to meet on campus.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 3, 2015 at 4:21 pm

      April Miller, one of the women trying to obtain a license, also testified. She said she voted for Kim Davis in the election and that this was only about getting her license, not about trying to change Davis’ beliefs.


      Here you have what you wanted, Alice, now YOU tell me what’s happening?

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 3, 2015 at 6:25 pm

    More North Carolina officials refuse to perform marriages
    Published September 03, 2015
    Associated Press
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    RALEIGH, N.C. – Dozens of magistrates in North Carolina have refused to perform weddings since a law went into effect allowing officials to refrain from performing the ceremony.

    The state court system says it’s received 32 notices from magistrates since a law took effect June 11 allowing court officials who for religious reasons oppose gay marriage to opt out of performing all marriages.

    The law exempts court officials with a “sincerely held religious objection” and is designed for those opposing gay marriage.

    The law also gave the recusal option to some register of deeds workers issuing marriage licenses. Elected officials would perform the duties as a last resort.

    State Sen. Phil Berger says the law is probably preventing situations like the one in Kentucky, where a clerk has refused to issue licenses.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 3, 2015 at 11:28 pm

    Here’s what you REALLY WANTED, Alice.

    Rather than be fined, jailed or lose their jobs, five of the clerks told the judge they would issue the licenses.

    “I don’t really want to, but I will comply with the law,” said one, Melissa Thompson. “I’m a preacher’s daughter and this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life,” she added.

    YES, YES, YES. This is what you wanted: proof positive Christians are more interested in their pocket than their conscience.

    Kentucky clerks to license marriages as their boss is jailed
    Published September 03, 2015 • Associated PressFacebook2296 Twitter615 Email Print
    Sept. 1, 2015: Rowan County Clerk Kim Davis listens to a customer following her office’s refusal to issue marriage licenses at the Rowan County Courthouse in Morehead, Ky. (AP)
    ASHLAND, Ky. – A defiant county clerk went to jail Thursday for refusing to issue marriage licenses to gay couples, but five of her deputies agreed to comply with the law, ending a two-month church-state standoff in Rowan County, Kentucky.

    U.S. District Judge David Bunning said he had no choice but to jail Kim Davis for contempt after she insisted that her “conscience will not allow” her to follow federal court rulings on gay marriage.

    “God’s moral law conflicts with my job duties,” Davis told the judge before she was taken away. “You can’t be separated from something that’s in your heart and in your soul.”

    The judge later tried to keep Davis out of jail after all. He rejected her lawyer’s argument that deputy clerks cannot act against her authority, and required them to declare their intentions.

    All but the clerk’s son, Nathan Davis, promised to comply. The judge said his refusal wouldn’t matter and that his mother could go free as long as she promises not to interfere with issuing of marriage licenses to all couples.

    But Kim Davis rejected the offer, choosing jail instead, her attorneys said.

    With that, the hearing ended, and gay and lesbian couples vowed to appear at the Rowan County clerk’s office yet again Friday, to see if the deputy clerks keep their promises.

    “We’re going to the courthouse tomorrow to get our marriage license and we’re very excited about that,” said April Miller, who has been engaged to Karen Roberts for 11 years.

    As word of Davis’ jailing spread outside the federal courthouse, hundreds of people chanted and screamed, “Love won! Love won!”

    But Davis’ lawyer, Roger Gannam, compared her willingness to accept imprisonment to what Martin Luther King Jr. did to advance civil rights, and said “everyone should lament and mourn the fact that her freedom has been taken away for what she believes.”

    Laura Landenwich, an attorney for the plaintiffs, rejected the comparison.

    “Ms. Davis is in an unfortunate situation of her own creation. She is not a martyr. No one created a martyr today,” Landenwich said. “She is not above the law.”

    Speaking earlier from the bench, Bunning said it would set up a “slippery slope” to allow an individual’s ideas to supersede the courts’ authority.

    “Her good faith belief is simply not a viable defense,” Bunning said. “I myself have genuinely held religious beliefs … but I took an oath.”

    “Mrs. Davis took an oath,” he added. “Oaths mean things.”

    Davis is represented by the Liberty Counsel, which advocates in court for religious freedom. Before she was led away, Davis said the U.S. Supreme Court ruling legalizing gay marriage nationwide conflicts with the vows she made when she became a born-again Christian.

    “I promised to love Him with all my heart, mind and soul because I wanted to make heaven my home,” Davis said.

    Miller and Roberts were denied a marriage license four times by Davis or her deputies since the June ruling. Miller testified that one of the deputy clerks told her to apply in another county. “That’s kind of like saying we don’t want gays or lesbians here. We don’t think you are valuable,” she said.

    Rather than be fined, jailed or lose their jobs, five of the clerks told the judge they would issue the licenses.

    “I don’t really want to, but I will comply with the law,” said one, Melissa Thompson. “I’m a preacher’s daughter and this is the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my life,” she added. “I don’t hate anybody … None of us do.”

    Davis, an Apostolic Christian whose critics mock her for being on her fourth marriage, stopped serving all couples after the Supreme Court ruling in June. Many supporters and even some Republican presidential candidates have rallied behind her.

    “People are calling the office all the time asking to send money,” she testified. “I myself have not solicited any money.”

    Davis said she hopes the Legislature will change Kentucky laws to find some way for her to keep her job while following her conscience. But unless the governor convenes a costly special session, they won’t meet until January. “Hopefully our legislature will get something taken care of,” she told the judge.

    Until then, the judge said, he has no alternative but to keep her behind bars.

    “The legislative and executive branches do have the ability to make changes,” Bunning said. “It’s not this court’s job to make changes. I don’t write law.”

    Davis served as her mother’s deputy in the clerk’s office for 27 years before she was elected as a Democrat to succeed her mother in November. As an elected official, she can be removed only if the Legislature impeaches her, which is unlikely in a deeply conservative state.

    Former Republican President George W. Bush nominated David Bunning for a lifetime position as a federal judge in 2001 when he was just 35 years old, halfway through his father’s first term in the Senate. But Bunning has been anything but a sure thing for conservative causes, ruling against a partial-birth abortion ban and in favor of a Gay-Straight high school club.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 5, 2015 at 9:41 pm

    US | Fri Sep 4, 2015 5:07pm EDT
    Related: U.S., Subjects, Gay Marriage
    Apostolic Christianity fuels Kentucky clerk’s gay marriage fight
    MOREHEAD, Ky. | By Steve Bittenbender
    “Like other Biblical literalists, she recognizes that divorce is stringently prohibited in the Bible,” said Candida Moss, a professor of New Testament and early Christianity at the University of Notre Dame. “This is where fundamentalists and historians agree. The saying of Jesus that one should not divorce is, historically speaking, one of the most historically reliable sayings of Jesus.”

    World | Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:15am EDT
    Related: World
    Gay pride not welcome in Venice, says city mayor
    ROME The mayor of Venice, who this month had a public row with British rock star Elton John over family values, has said he never wants to see a Gay Pride parade take place in the lagoon city while he is in charge.

    Luigi Brugnaro, a businessman who was elected mayor on a centre-right ticket in June, told la Repubblica daily that gay pride marches were the “height of kitsch”.

    “There will never be a Gay Pride in my city,” he was quoted as saying in Wednesday’s paper. “Let them go and do it in Milan, or in front of their own homes,” he said.

    Italy’s rights group Arcigay holds Gay Pride parades in numerous Italian cities each year, last visiting Venice in 2014. It denounced Brugnaro’s broadside, accusing him of besmirching Venice’s reputation as an open, sophisticated society.

    “Venice is not his city. At the moment he is governing it, but he won’t last long given the fool he is making of himself,” said Arcigay President Flavio Romani.

    “He is becoming obsessive about this. Venice does not deserve it,” Romani told Reuters.

    Brugnaro sparked a controversy soon after taking office by banning books featuring same-sex couples from the city schools.

    Elton John, who has two children with his partner David Furnish, used his Instagram page this month to condemn the move, calling Brugnaro “boorishly bigoted”.

    The mayor told the singer to keep out of Venice’s business.

    Brugnaro’s comments come at a time when the government is struggling to pass legislation that would finally give legal recognition to same-sex couples in predominantly Roman Catholic Italy.

    Italy is the only major western European country that does not recognize either civil partnerships or gay marriage. Despite prodding from the European Court of Human Rights, some centre-right parties are digging in their heels to snarl progress on the long-delayed law.

    “It is a national scandal,” Romani said. “Sadly in this country, some politicians listen more to what the bishops tell them rather than what society is saying.”

    Alice, Jesus and the Bishops are way more correct than society.

  • Rachel September 7, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    I do not believe she has any right to discriminate. Religious freedom is a far cry from the right to deny others their legal rights.

    When someone holds a government position they are obligated to follow the law. If she feels that following the law would be a sin, she has the right to resign. It would be a violation of her freedoms if she were forced to do the job and not allowed to resign. This was not the case. She should not be allowed to pick and choose which citizens are deemed worthy of their legal rights. No one person should.

    My step-brother recently posted about Romans 12,13, &14. I think that these verses are important to this issue for many reasons. I hope to have time to write about this soon.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 7, 2015 at 7:45 pm

      Rachel, homosexual conduct is a crime against society just like murder, theft, pergury, adultery, fornication, and rape. Civil law doesn’t change that fact.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 7, 2015 at 8:00 pm

      Rachel, laws are able to be wrong. They are made by imperfect people. I think you can agree upon that. So where is perfection? What’s the answer to that? Is there no perfection? to admit imperfection is to admit the absolute of perfection. Therefore perfection does exist. That proves God exists and we are all responsible to Him BEFORE the State. She has an absolute right to refuse gays licenses and keep her employment. The issue is wrong law and the making of that nationally public just like in the days of racial segregation/inequality.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 7, 2015 at 8:17 pm

        Rachel, rational people must admit to imperfection and in doing so must admit to the Perfect, Who is God. Therefore atheism is a crime against society. Everybody who refuses to worship God is a criminal of the State. Our law doesn’t see it that way because our law is wrong. Because our law is wrong many new laws are wrong. Since only one God exists by definition and that God is perfect, only the Christian and Jewish religions are to be used as worship options. That is not the establishment of one religion over another which our constitution prohibits.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 7, 2015 at 7:34 pm

    Rachel, everybody has the right to discriminate. You are doing that right in your post: it is called JUDGING.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 8, 2015 at 12:19 am

    Maryland court: Woman in same-sex divorce is not a 2nd parent, no visitation rights to child
    Published September 02, 2015
    Associated Press
    Facebook10 Twitter12 Email Print
    ANNAPOLIS, Md. – A Maryland appeals court has ruled that a lesbian woman has no right to visitation or custody of a child who the woman’s former partner gave birth to before the couple married.
    The Daily Record of Baltimore ( ) reports that the Court of Special Appeals has upheld a ruling by a Washington County Circuit judge that Michelle Conover does not have parental standing over 5-year-old Jaxon Conover. The boy was born six months before Michelle Conover married the boy’s biological mother, Brittany Conover, and 17 months before the two divorced.
    Writing for the court, Judge Robert A. Zarnoch says that clearer laws governing the rights of same-sex couples need to be established up by state legislators. He ruled that Michelle Conover was a “third party” and not a second parent.
    Information from: The Daily Record of Baltimore,

    Alice, now if you do the math, seventeen minus six, they were “married” only eleven months. The boy was conceived by artificial insemination outside wedlock for such a lesbian “marriage” to take place. These are NOT desirable people to have in the neighborhood. They are a danger to society and should be considered criminals: the crime against society: homosexuality. New laws are required to control unlawful behavior? The boy’s name is Jaxon William Lee Eckel Conover. He has NO FATHER. He’s a bastard by definition with only one identifiable parent. Do you find this lovely, beautiful, and good for society because your god is love?

    • Alice Spicer September 8, 2015 at 8:22 pm

      For every messy homosexual divorce and/or custody battle, there is a comparable heterosexual story. We could ping pong stories back and forth for the next century. It would be an exercise in futility. That’s all I have to say about that (Forest Gump).

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 8, 2015 at 11:28 pm

        Alice, this is your ideal arrangement. Lesbians artificial inseminated and bastard children with NO FATHER. And you find this lovely, beautiful, and good for society because your god is love?

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 8, 2015 at 3:41 pm

    AOL News today on Kim Davis’s release from jail, another county clerk:

    Casey County Clerk Casey Davis, who recently finished riding a bike more than 400 miles across the state of Kentucky in solidarity with Kim Davis, said he was relieved she was being released. He is not related to her.

    “It’s been a total injustice for her being there to begin with,” he said.

    But he said he is still not issuing any marriage licenses, and suspects the conflict could come to his county next. He said only one same-sex couple has inquired about a marriage license in his county and was told there were no licenses being issued, and that’s the last Davis heard from them.

    He said he, too, would be willing to go to jail.

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