Critical Analysis of Kim Davis Memes

Critical Analysis of Kim Davis Memes

Critical Analysis of Kim Davis Memes

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I actually love this meme. It is absurd. It is true. It is absurdly true.

Author, radio broadcaster, and seminary professor, Steve Brown, writes in his book Scandalous Freedom,

Do you want to know what God is like? Then look at Jesus. If you want to know how God reacts to people, look at how Jesus reacted to people.

How do you think Jesus would react to this meme?

The apostle John records how Jesus, a Jew, arouses shock from onlookers when He has a long, intimate conversation with a Samaritan woman. In that day and age, Jewish men didn’t have conversations with Samaritan women. Jesus knows the woman is a religious law-breaker, repeatedly divorced and remarried and currently with a guy who isn’t her husband, yet He doesn’t condemn her.

But that’s just half what you need to know about this meme or the story of the Samaritan woman. It’s the half that is popular among believers like President and founder of Cowger Nation Media Network, Caiden Cowger, who also serves as Editor-in-Chief of Cowger Nation. Christian supporters of Davis are quick to come to her defense when commentators label her a Christian hypocrite in light of the fact that she’s been married multiple times and had children out of wedlock. Cowger writes in his article, TRUTH: Kim Davis divorced husbands BEFORE she became a Christian,

Perhaps some of her divorces were over sexual immorality. We do not know the situation; therefore, we are in no place to judge. Quite frankly, it is none of our business; she has repented and has been forgiven.

The truth is that while Mrs. Davis has been divorced three times, she did not become a Christian until 2011, three years after her last divorce. While Davis has been married four times, she is presently married to her second husband, whom she remarried in 2009.

We can compare the Kim Davis of four years ago to the Samaritan woman, because she had a history, and that history didn’t stop Jesus Christ from giving her a do-over. Davis says,

All I can say to them is if they have a sordid past like what I had, they too can receive the cleansing and renewing, and they can start a fresh life, and they can be different. They don’t have to remain in their sin, there’s hope for tomorrow.

Kim Davis’ past doesn’t matter any more. Because Jesus.

Unfortunately, people have a hard time wrapping their brains around the idea that Davis’ past doesn’t matter any more. And guess whose fault that is?

Yep, you guessed it. Kim Davis’. Keep reading and you’ll discover why she only has herself to blame for the shit-storm of negative media attention.

 

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This meme points out how like so many Christians, Kim Davis cherry picks scriptures.

Scriptures on marriage laws are abundant. Yet, for some reason, Davis has latched on to scriptures that address homosexuality and ignored scriptures that address marriage. For example, Luke 16:18 says,

Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

If Kim Davis systematically refused to sign the marriage licenses of people who had been previously married, will someone please call the press? Perhaps her deeply held convictions will be taken more seriously. Does she ask people who apply for a marriage license whether they have ever lusted over someone? If they have, then according to her own views, she ought to refuse to sign her name. And I can’t help but wonder why, with all the media attention, Davis hasn’t taken the opportunity to point out that according to scriptures, being gay is punishable by death.

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This meme and similar memes present an inaccurate analogy. And people buy into it hook, line, and sinker.

Suppose you are a vegetarian looking for a job. You come from a family of culinary artists, and you hope to carry on the tradition in your own career choice. A local restaurant with a vegetarian-only menu enthusiastically hires you. Every day, you look forward to going to work. You take pride in serving delicious vegetarian meals. Your conscience is clear, because you don’t have any part in animal cruelty or slaughter. But as the years pass, locals begin complaining about the lack of meat on the menu. At first, the owner ignores them. As business begins to suffer, and an increasing number of customers request meat, the owner eventually relents, and adds meat to the menu. Most of the employees are fine with serving meat. A few cook and serve meat but have a hard time sleeping at night. You refuse to serve meat. This would be a more accurate analogy than the above meme.

Kim Davis believes if she were to sign the marriage license of a homosexual couple, she is taking part in something that will contribute to the unraveling of the moral fabric of society. Well, that’s just stupid, some people say. Perhaps it is a stupid belief. Perhaps it isn’t. The point here is not whether people agree with Davis’ beliefs, the point is whether we are ready, as a nation, to put people in jail for non-violent offenses that are entirely based on religious or deeply held moral convictions. We value checks and balances between the three branches of government. Why can’t we also value checks and balances between the government and its employees? It’s not as if homosexual people CAN NEVER EVER get married in Rowan County as long as Davis holds her current position. Should we throw her in the slammer and/or find a way to oust her from her elected position when there are several less heavy-handed options for resolution available?

How we respond to this situation sets a precedent for the future. Do we want government employees to comply with government policy, even when government policy is dead wrong? Orwellian compliance may be convenient when the government isn’t inherently or thoroughly corrupt, but what happens if (when?) that changes? We should not be so quick to accustom ourselves to a future in which elected officials have absolutely no regard for their own religious or deeply held moral convictions. Some of the greatest social advances have taken place because people have spoken and behaved in accordance with their consciences in an environment where doing so meant the loss of livelihood, liberty, or even their lives.

Don’t get me wrong. I’m not equating Davis with MLK. I think her worldview is a product of the fear-based interpretation of scripture and traditions of the Pentecostal church, whereas MLK’s worldview was a product of the greatest commandment, “Love one another.” The only reason I would even dare to mention them both in the same sentence is to say that if we trample and spit on the Kim Davises of this world, we also inadvertently trample and spit on the MLKs.

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“The opposite of bravery is not cowardice but conformity.” Robert Anthony

Memes often set up false dichotomies. To me, this meme sets up an us-vs-them scenario. If you think Davis is brave, you are one of us. If you think Jenner is brave, you are one of them. We are right. They are wrong. But in reality, both of these people made similar decisions. Both faced fear of consequences head-on. Both decided to speak and behave in accordance with their beliefs, knowing full well that doing so would result in a thorny overabundance of both praise and disapproval from people who are shocked when someone is so uncomfortably transparent. Both of them said to themselves, I am going to be who I was created to be. To hell with my past. To hell with everyone’s expectations.

You might say, “Well, God created Jenner to be a man.” Or you might say, “Well God created Davis to be a public servant who upholds the Constitution.” And your disapproval is the reason I can call them brave.

History demonstrates that of the people who opposed slavery and civil rights and interracial marriages, many of them recognized their error decades later, when the world didn’t come to an end after all. Fear of the future, fear of change, and fear of God’s judgment (which brings righteousness) complicate the human experience and our ultimate purpose in this world — to love God and love one another. Davis admittedly acts in fear of divine retribution. Decades from now, or perhaps on the other side of the grave, when God is all in all, Davis, homosexual couples, the Supreme Court justices, Jenner, the media, blog readers, and the entire human race will look back on all this strife and confusion and say, “None of that matters any more. Because Jesus.”

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas September 11, 2015 at 5:25 am

    I think you’re right to point out that this person is self-serving in her views of what is morally wrong and therefore that it is hard to take seriously her stance regarding same-sex marriage on the grounds that “the Bible condemns it.”

    I think you’re right on in your assessment of Kim Davis’ refusal to sign the marriage licenses of same-sex couples. I agree that the issue is not whether one agrees or disagrees with her religious beliefs, but whether she should be allowed to hold those beliefs and to practice her faith in the public sphere. In my view, where religious accommodations can be made without denying others their rights or infringing on the freedom of others, they should be made. In this case, and in others like it, we as a nation would do well to seek compromise such that the rights of both parties – the right of same-sex couples to marry and the right of those who oppose same-sex marriage on religious grounds to live in the public sphere in ways that do not violate their convictions – are upheld. Aside from whether government policies are right or wrong, the fact is that the nation was founded on religious liberty. For religious liberty to be meaningful, people need to be able to live out their faith in the public square. This doesn’t mean that they have the right to impose their beliefs on others. But it does mean that where possible, their right to exercise their religion should be respected and accommodated. (It irks me to no end when I hear people dismiss any and all claims of religion conscience, as though the exercise of religious beliefs has no place in society – a stance that reveals not only intolerance but also profound ignorance of American history.)

    I like what you say about the role of religion in society. The Founders would definitely agree – which is why they were zealous to ensure the separation of church and state.

    I like the picture you paint of the restored world that God will surely bring to pass – a world where injustice, fear, and discord/division are done away and justice, love, and peace abound under the one Lord, Jesus Christ.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2015 at 1:43 pm

      Self-serving, Mary? You haven’t the faintness idea of what salvation is because you haven’t been fundamentally born again. Kim Davis became a “new creation” {2 Corinthians 5: 17} the moment she trusted Jesus died for her sins. God regenerated her having taken away ALL of her sins; past, present, and future sins; and charged her account in heaven with the earthly righteousness of Jesus Christ; gave her a new heart with divine perspectives; and inserted His Holy Spirit inside her mortal body to empower her for practical holy living. God was able to do that for her because He had imputed her sins to His own Son. But you refuse double imputation and therefore have no salvation, but your own self-improvement you think is won by your fictious Christ who somehow bore your sins. Your speech betrays your words. Except you believe imputation, you will burn. Believe or burn.

    • Alice Spicer September 12, 2015 at 10:57 am

      I think that many people get confused about this issue. They think making special accommodations for someone in order to preserve religious liberty = letting people impose their beliefs on others. As if it were an either/or situation. This and other recent news stories have sent me back to the school of American history, and there I’m reminded of the fact that, like you said, this nation was founded on religious liberty.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 2:08 pm

        Alice, preaching the Gospel = letting people impose their beliefs on others, especially when it is made individually personal as I have done. Yet it is still a “take it or leave it” situation as you have yourself demonstrated by refusing the truth that “being gay is punishable by death.” Instead you say, Define “true.” when it comes to Scripture. You’re looking for wiggle room to deny what is true. You don’t want the Scriptures imposed on you. You won’t take it and you will do everything in your power to leave it. Open your eyes and see yourself. You’ve had to battle banning me from your site. As if it were an either/or situation.

        • Alice Spicer September 12, 2015 at 7:12 pm

          I won’t answer your question until you define terms. I’ve learned that from past experience with you, Lanny. We get deep into a discussion and then I realize that so much could have been clarified from the start had we defined terms first. So I’m not trying to avoid the question, I’m trying to answer it. Define “true,” as it pertains to scriptures (i.e. define “true” as the word is used within the context of your question).

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 13, 2015 at 4:45 am

            Okay, Alice, true = real. Absolute reality. The Bible is real. “Being gay is punishable by death” is real.
            I want to see you wiggle. Remember Romans 3: 3 is real.

            • Alice Spicer September 13, 2015 at 8:45 pm

              No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:1) <<< Here's one scripture that isn't real.

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 13, 2015 at 9:55 pm

                Reality of warfare & POW (Prisoner of War) and jealous wives and boyfriends. In the news has been male parts deliberately mutilated by wives and doctor/boyfriends. Where have you been? Don’t you read the news? Reality, dear Alice, the bare reality of today and then.

            • Lanny A. Eichert September 18, 2015 at 6:05 pm

              Alice, the Genesis account of creation is real because the Bible is real.

              Charles Darwin recognized that ants challenged his theory of natural selection. He even mentioned it in his Origin of Species. He even asked how the situation with the lowly ant could ever be reconciled with his theory. He never did come up with an answer, and neither have modern evolutionists.

              Darwin’s problem was with the worker ants. Even though they are products of sexual reproduction, they differ greatly from their parents. They are each specialized with features their parents don’t have so they can carry out their designated tasks in the nest. The problem is that these workers are sterile females, so they cannot pass on the traits that are unique from their parents. Modern evolutionists theorize that perhaps there were some lucky mutations that took place in queen ants through their evolutionary history. However, this explanation is not very credible since the oldest fossilized ants are identical to today’s ants. That means that there is no evidence of evolution in ants over a period of 70 million “evolutionary” years. Of course, we at Creation Moments don’t accept claims that the world is that old.

              Perhaps God, in His foreknowledge, designed ant society this way to foil Darwin and those who have thought like him throughout history. Whatever the case, here is evidence that the ant neither evolved nor could have possibly evolved.

              Alice, because the Bible is real, “Being gay is punishable by death” is real.

      • Mary Vanderplas September 13, 2015 at 6:52 am

        You’re probably right. And it’s true that often enough religious liberty has been distorted and misused, giving people reason to question whether it can be affirmed without sanctioning the imposition of the religious beliefs of some on others who don’t share those beliefs. Just as irksome as the stance of “enlightened” anti-religionists who would deny religion its rightful place in society is the stance of those religious folk who would make the right to exercise their religion absolute – claiming entitlement to everything they seek in the way of government support and screaming “anti-Christian bias” when decisions are made legally that prohibit them from acting to impose their beliefs on others.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2015 at 1:21 pm

    Alice, you “can’t help but wonder why, with all the media attention, Davis hasn’t taken the opportunity to point out that according to scriptures, being gay is punishable by death.” Are you that short-sighted that you can’t see all she wanted to do was her job with a clear conscience of not endorsing anybody’s sins. Don’t ask, don’t tell; but it is much too obvious when the two are the same gender to shut your eyes. She didn’t preach, she just refused for conscience sake.

    But if any man say unto you, This is offered in sacrifice unto idols, eat not for his sake that shewed it, and for conscience sake: for the earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof {1 Corinthians 10: 28}

    BTW your restaurant with a vegetarian-only menu is inadequate. You admitted being gay is punishable by death, but not eating meat.

    And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. {Ephesians 5: 11 – 13}

    Just her refusal was sufficient “light” to condemn those seeking licenses and by her refusal she “reproved” their sins. She didn’t have to preach “being gay is punishable by death” because they knew it already.

    For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness {Romans 1: 18 and see through verse 32} Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    The Holy Bible still concludes with a populated Lake of Fire without remedy, Alice, so your closing comments are hot air fiction. Sodom and Gomorrah mentioned in Jude 7 is still God’s assurance the wicked are forever damned without remedy. The fire doesn’t do out and you will not be fireproof. Believe or burn.

    I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me {Exodus 20: 5}

    • Alice Spicer September 11, 2015 at 1:44 pm

      I did NOT admit to “being gay is punishable by death.” I said that this is what scriptures say.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2015 at 1:50 pm

        Alice, are you arguing with Scripture, saying it is not true?

        • Alice Spicer September 12, 2015 at 10:43 am

          Define “true.”

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 1:29 pm

            Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault {John 18: 37 & 38}

            Obviously you are not “of the truth” since you ask skeptically the same question Pilate asked and intend to go on your way just like him. The grace of God profits you nothing today. Reread my 4: 16 am and stop hardening your heart.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2015 at 7:02 pm

        Alice, guilt by association. Since you support the freedom of gay couples to “marry” you are guilty of homosexual conduct. Romans 1: 32 applies to you.

        Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

        You are having pleasure in homosexuality. You are worthy of death. See, this is the perversion of society homosexuals bring unto you. That’s why they are criminals against society. They have made you a criminal of society. Your pro-homosexual affection is a crime against humanity. Romans 1: 32 clearly tells you God’s judgment call is death to the homosexuals, but you argue against God’s judgment. You have made yourself a higher judge than God Himself and you have dethroned God. How much more foolish can you be?

        Look Alice, God killed Ananias and Sapphira for lying to the church in Jerusalem, but since God is not killing church liars today doesn’t mean they aren’t still worthy of death. Because God is not raining fire and brimstone on homosexual centers today like He did with Sodom and Gomorrah doesn’t mean the individuals aren’t worthy of death. God called out these two sins, so should you. You can’t hide behind every sinner is worthy of death and we are all sinners. These are two specific sins God has made examples and no one should dismiss them as not more significant than any other. God calls both of them abominations. See Proverbs 6: 16 – 19 where your activity on this site is adequately descriptive of you, regarding the church. For your abominations your were dismissed from your church; and you wish to be their judge and Kim Davis’ judge? You don’t even participate in the Lord’s Supper nor the fellowship of a specific local church. What a hypocrite you are blind to being.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 4:16 am

    Alice, when you compare her to Bruce Jenner you have trampled and spit on Kim Davis and also MLK. That’s what your Robert Anthony quote made bravery to be. Because Jenner refuses to conform to his God-given male gender, you make his insane perversion into the bravery of living his dream of being a woman. He belongs in a mental ward because he is still a man and every time he washed his groin he is reminded of that fact. What did you set out to accomplished when you wrote Don’t Throw in the Towel, County Clerks? You were skeptical they were true to their convictions and sought real commitment. Well now you have that in Kim Davis and you sure are short on praise. What a hypocrite you are to crucify anti-gays before and after. You don’t know what you really want and can’t therefore see it when it is right in front of your eyes. Just like any other unbeliever, you seek real faith, but can’t see it right before you. Your daddy, my friend Sean Dean, has been that demonstration before you for years in thick and thin. How much more visual can he be than selling what little was left him to follow Christ as a remote areas missionary when his whole family forsook him? Right in front of your eyes is real faith in God’s perfect literal Holy Bible. Alice, you know you have a vacuum in your soul that is eating away at you. Only God can fill it, the God of the Bible, not your intellectual image of God. You will always be restless until you receive Him by faith. You will always be fighting orthodoxy as long as you continue to deceive yourself into thinking you have received Him while you really haven’t submitted to His perfect Bible. You’re a living contradiction who needs to accept the Truth. Your dad is praying for you and so have I been, but the decision is yours and we can’t make it for you.

    I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. {Exodus 20: 5 & 6}

    Sean and I love the LORD Jesus (we are two of the thousands) and we are praying verse six regarding your salvation being His mercy shown to us.

    • Mary Vanderplas September 13, 2015 at 7:13 am

      His whole family forsook him – really??? That’s not what I remember. Even his ex-wife, who is my best friend, and I, along with members of his family, filling two pews in the church sanctuary, attended the service in which he was commissioned for his work in Colombia. I guess making up shit isn’t sin in your distorted, delusional way thinking.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 13, 2015 at 10:30 am

        Expected even from two people comfortable with four letter vulgar vocabularies.

        • Mary Vanderplas September 14, 2015 at 5:09 am

          “His whole family forsook him” is a patent lie. Not buying into a person’s belief system isn’t forsaking the person. Your fundamentalist “good people-bad people” worldview drives you to make heroes/victims/martyrs out of everyone who shares your beliefs – twisting, fabricating, embellishing, creating tales that become larger and more fanciful with each retelling. It’s a bunch of horse shit – beyond hagiography – which any thoughtful, discerning person can sniff out in a nanosecond.

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 14, 2015 at 10:34 am

            Mary, a person’s belief system is what defines a person. You write as if it doesn’t matter. Also holiness is inconsistent with a four letter vulgar vocabulary. You lack self-control as well as good thinking; not any different than Alice.

            Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord {Hebrews 12: 14}

            The evidence is in black and white throughout this internet site that you two are far from any heavenly character.

            • Mary Vanderplas September 15, 2015 at 5:05 am

              To say that rejecting a person’s belief system isn’t to forsake the person isn’t to say that beliefs don’t matter. It’s to say that agreement with another person’s beliefs isn’t the proof of one’s love and loyalty and that relationship is possible across differences in belief. Moreover, belief systems, however firmly adhered to, are not infallible; and no one can boast certitude and possession of ultimate truth. To imagine that one has all the answers and that everyone else must conform to his beliefs in order to be right and good is sheer arrogance. That countless families continue to be in relationship with one another across differences in beliefs and views of morality testifies to the absurdity of your contention. Only where religious extremism prevails is agreement with the views of the dominant person/party requisite for relationship.

              Once again the mind-boggling logic of fundamentalism is evident in what you say. To paraphrase, “Go ahead and make up shit, to make yourself look better than you are. Just don’t ever say that word.” What a joke.

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 5:15 am

                No joke, Mary: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. {Matthew 12: 36 & 37}

                You’re condemned.

                • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 5:19 am

                  Leviticus 20: 26
                  And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
                  See also the end of verse 24
                  I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
                  Do you deny that God’s people are distinctly different from the world’s people? that God’s people are good people and the world’s people are bad people? That God’s people use clean language and the world’s people use dirty vulgar language? that yours and Alice’s four letter vulgarities are the world’s language? that the two of you belong to the world’s population? that the two of you are not included among God’s people?

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 14, 2015 at 5:48 pm

            Mary, tell me if this isn’t supposed to be a “them and us” mentality. See Leviticus 20: 26

            And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

            See also the end of verse 24

            I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

            Do you deny that God’s people are distinctly different from the world’s people? that God’s people are good people and the world’s people are bad people? That God’s people use clean language and the world’s people use dirty vulgar language? that yours and Alice’s four letter vulgarities are the world’s language? that the two of you belong to the world’s population? that the two of you are not included among God’s people?

            • Mary Vanderplas September 15, 2015 at 5:15 am

              If holiness entailed distancing/flight from the world with all of its evils, the Holy One would never have deigned to get involved in messy human history (read the Old Testament). If holiness entailed separation from all things worldly, the One who is called the “Holy One of God” would never have entered the world of pain and sin and chosen to be the friend of sinners (read the New Testament). God’s people are different from the world only in the sense that they recognize themselves as helpless sinners, totally dependent on God’s mercy, and seek to live by the power of the Spirit the way that Jesus lived and calls us to live, in self-giving love for guilty and suffering people. God’s people are NOT morally superior to other people. They are NOT a group of spiritual elites who must separate themselves from the world in order to preserve their moral purity – a totally self-serving stance. This is not what holiness is. There are no good people-bad people, only people who recognize their sinfulness and God’s saving mercy and who strive to become more like Christ in their daily living and those who don’t (yet) live in the reality of who God is and what God has done.

              I’m done.

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 5:31 am

                don’t (yet) Mary. They NEVER will, therefore they burn forever, you poor deceived person. The rich man in Luke 16 never changed his tune, but was resigned to hopelessness.

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 5:40 am

                Mary, you don’t even recognize the sinfulness of your vulgar insistences. Can’t you see you’re still not one of God’s people? Your four letter volcabulary still betrays you, so why not admit it?

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 6:03 am

                Mary, can’t you even find the subject of the verbs “have severed” and “have separated” in Leviticus 20: 26 & 24? It is Jehovah/Jahweh Who did the separating by His Law Covenant which is unique from the world’s laws requiring of them a standard very much higher and more righteous than any of the world’s standards. God gave His people a morally superior code of law than what the heathen had of themselves.

                Holiness does entail separation from all things worldly, but you haven’t read 1 John 2: 15 & 16, have you?
                Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
                Or James 4: 4
                Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

                And you were a minister in your church? No wonder it is liberal loving and serving mammon at the same time falsely thinking they are serving God.

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2015 at 6:26 am

                Mary, you just can’t logically get there from your liberal theology. Only Fundamental theology answers God’s command to His people to be holy. Double imputation works to accomplish His commandment. Abraham believed God and He counted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15: 6 and Romans 4: 3
                This is your theology: Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. {verse 4}
                But here’s the right one in the next verse {5}
                But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

                You and Alice need to yield to orthodoxy or you’ll burn forever. It is the only truth. Only recognizing yourselves as helpless sinners totally dependent on God’s mercy, and seeking to live by the power of the Spirit the way that Jesus lived and calls us to live, in self-giving love is still self-effort and works salvation which will never work or satisfy God. Imputation is the only way and you need it. Reject it and you burn forever for refuse God’s offer.

            • Brian Tripp December 6, 2015 at 1:32 pm

              Wow! So you’re the saint that would’ve been able to cast the first stone.
              I’ve read all of your comments & replies and it’s clear that you’re convinced in your own mind Lanny-boy, so I’ll provide a ‘lil water on Alice’s good seeds in hopes that God will cause the growth.
              God must show you how to cut straight the word of truth and because you’re filled to the brim with hate & judgement, He has delayed showing you and has temporarily blinded you as He has done with Israel for His own purpose. As Israel does for obvious reasons, you too, judaize the bible, leaving yourself completely incapable of discerning the clear and distinct differences between the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ (kingdom gospel) and the heavenly ministry of Christ Jesus (Paul’s gospel) which leaves you with a bible that contradicts itself.
              My bible has no such contradictions and I pray that the blinders God has placed on you and Israel will soon be removed, allowing you to run away from the church to join the body of Christ.

              • Lanny A. Eichert December 6, 2015 at 7:16 pm

                Brian, you’re a “trip” alright.

                The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. {Psalm 11: 5}

                Do you see that, Brian? God’s SOUL utterly hates those who do violence to His words and that’s what Alice is doing as this site’s theme. The next verse says about them:

                Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

                Dear Brian, portion means their sole complete destiny, not as Alice would have it, their temporary little destiny, taking portion to mean minor part of the whole. So what also are you doing: denying Orthodoxy also? You too think your a better Bible scholar than 2,000 years of church saints? That’s pretty puffed up of you and Alice and her “enlightened” friends. I’ve heard this same heresy six thousand years ago from the serpent in the Garden {Genesis 3: 4} And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die. What are you, a woman, Brian, that you can’t discern a lie when you see one? Man up, man, will you? You’re like a woman, believing that lie. Yeh, women deserve to believe lies, but not men. Men are responsible to believe the truth and nothing but the truth. You’ll go to hell for what you wrote, because you’re under responsibility for siding with women. Hate the lie, Brian. Hate the lie with me and don’t be a foolish woman. Be a man. Side with Orthodoxy. Let the women go to Hell. All they can think about is love. Foolish love that doesn’t exist. That why so many of them get pregnant without their husbands. They don’t know the real thing from the false. Foolish women. And you write “Alice’s good seeds”? Get real.

                Hate? No, just reality.

              • Lanny A. Eichert December 6, 2015 at 7:35 pm

                I knew a Tripp family once in the 80’s who lived not far from Hallstead, PA perhaps along the Susquehanna River. Do you know Joseph Smith was baptized in that region of the river when he received the priesthood before he started the Mormon religion? That religion is a “trip” also. How educated people can fall for it is simply insanity.

    • Alice Spicer September 13, 2015 at 8:47 pm

      I’m not sure where you got this idea that I have forsaken my Dad.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 13, 2015 at 10:08 pm

        1 Faith of our fathers! living still
        in spite of dungeon, fire, and sword;
        oh, how our hearts beat high with joy
        whene’er we hear that glorious word!
        Faith of our fathers, holy faith!
        We will be true to thee till death!

        2 Faith of our fathers! we will strive
        to win all nations unto thee,
        and through the truth that comes from God,
        the world shall then be truly free:
        faith of our fathers, holy faith!
        We will be true to thee till death!

        3 Faith of our fathers! we will love
        both friend and foe in all our strife;
        and preach thee, too, as love knows how,
        by kindly words and virtuous life:
        faith of our fathers, holy faith!
        We will be true to thee till death!

        Sean Dean’s faith you have forsaken. That’s how you have forsaken him. Both you, Alice, and Mary have sung this song and neither of you know its meaning because you both deliberately refuse to be fundamentally born again. You both deliberately refuse the authority of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible. You both deliberately refuse to believe God does what He is capable of doing: maintaining the purity of His Book letter for letter in the spelling of every word down through the centuries.

    • Mary Vanderplas September 18, 2015 at 5:31 am

      Praying for someone who already trusts God’s love and confesses Christ as the world’s Savior and the Lord of all to adopt your fundamentalist belief system is arrogant stupidity of the highest order.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 18, 2015 at 12:07 pm

        Mary, the reason why I’ve had to quote Matthew 7: 21 – 23 for you and her is that there’s a difference between confessing what you think you are believing and doing and actually believing and doing it.

        Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

        Verse 5 begins You hypocrite, and is the subject. To say you and her trust and confess WHILE REJECTING THE SPELT WORDS OF THE HOLY BIBLE is hypocisy and isTHE arrogant stupidity of the highest order. You deflect the issue from Biblical faith to my belief system. Your trust and confession is in the wisdom of men, not in the sacred Writ itself, God’s Book. You have reduced God’s character so that He would not protect His every word and make Him a Liar at Matthew 4: 4 “he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” To trust and confess God in such a way is to have no foundation for determining what is “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” but your own wisdom and the wisdom of other imperfect men. Without foundation, yours and her confessions are false, untrue, and lies.

        Look, Mary, during our previous long dialogue you have repeatedly denied the double imputation of 2 Corinthians 5: 21.
        For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
        Look, Mary, Alice doesn’t go to church regularly to eat the Lord’s Supper with the saints regularly and she is an able-bodied woman.
        Look, Mary, you and her do not refrain from four letter vulgarities, the habit of the world, far from holiness in conversation.
        I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

        Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves?

        • Mary Vanderplas September 19, 2015 at 5:12 am

          The spelt words of the Holy Bible include “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged” (verse 1 of Matthew 7) – or have these words been conveniently edited out of your version? This behavior of refraining from passing judgment in humble acknowledgement that there is only One who is qualified to judge is part of what it means to be a person who “does the will of my Father in heaven” (verse 21). You believe and live by every word of the Holy Bible all right, except when you don’t – which, when it comes to judging who’s in and who’s out with God, is pretty much all the time. Yeah, un-huh, everyone needs to buy into your version of biblical faith, because, well, it’s so obviously reflective of the will of God embodied and taught by Jesus…..

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 19, 2015 at 12:45 pm

            Mary, including your immediate post and the one previous: September 18, 2015 at 5:31 am Praying for someone who already trusts God’s love and confesses Christ as the world’s Savior and the Lord of all to adopt your fundamentalist belief system is arrogant stupidity of the highest order.
            Aren’t you JUDGING me?
            Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment. {John 7: 24}

            But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1 Peter 1: 15 & 16}

            You two lack serious practical holiness and it is so obvious throughout this blog site. First by your vulgar verbiage and second by your own testimonies. Your conduct speaks louder than your words. Both of you are totally disqualified in the things you try to address. You both need to be fundamentally born again because you cannot see the Kingdom of God let alone enter it. Jesus even told a very religious man the same thing and I doubt you even come close to his piety.

            Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {John 3: 3 & 5 & 7} Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

            Get to Sean Dean’s sending Fundamental Baptist Church and get yourselves saved the Bible way, because your way doesn’t work and you should know that by now.

            • Mary Vanderplas September 20, 2015 at 5:14 am

              Why, of course, you point the finger at me, while chasing around the Bible, frantically looking for verses you can twist to try to justify your actions – anything to deflect attention from your own glaring sinfulness and hypocrisy. You’re nothing if not predictable. The issue is not ethical discernment, but denouncing and condemning fellow human beings, about whom one has limited knowledge at best. The issue is also whether judgments are made from a position of self-righteous superiority or from a stance of solidarity, recognizing one’s own sinfulness and need of God’s forgiveness. The warning is clear: only those who show mercy can expect to receive it. Your actions of denouncing persons whom God loves and of making pronouncements about who’s in and who’s out in the final reckoning (while imagining yourself as being morally perfect, beyond the need of forgiveness), show plainly that you violate the will of God to love and not to judge others. Own it, pal. The egg’s smeared all over your face.

            • Mary Vanderplas September 20, 2015 at 5:22 am

              Are you referring to the fabled Sean Dean, the one who has been forsaken by his whole family and who bravely persists in doing God’s work in the face of total rejection and isolation?

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 19, 2015 at 2:37 pm

            Mary, the reason you are so irritated and bothered is because you don’t have certitude and I do. Saved people know they are saved and will never be judged and condemned for their sins, because Jesus took their sentence upon Himself. See Mary, God’s believers’ sins were charged to Him and He experienced their punishment. That’s the first imputation. The second is God’s righteousness, that is Jesus’ mortal righteousness, is charged to God’s believers because of their faith, making them as good as God is, and fit to have communion with God in the here and now.

            That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. {1 John 1: 3}

            Mary, you and Alice, along with her friends, are not and can not have fellowship with me because you all haven’t been fundamentally born again. Therefore you all’s fellowship is not with the Father and the Son, but rather with Satan’s family and friends. Don’t you see what has been declared unto you is that you MUST be born again the Bible way and the Bible way is the SURE thing.

            We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. {1 John 3: 14}
            Just like Jesus said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. {John 5: 24}
            That “know” is Perfect Active Indicative meaning completed action with continuing results in present reality. See, you and your kind don’t love me and my brethren, but I do; and have the certitude of being “in” with God and I have the certitude that you all are on the “outs” with God. Remember I’ve already listed the reasons you all fail of the grace of God and for that you’ve in a huff accused me of judging you. That’s not humility at all on your parts. Own your own sins and call upon Jesus to save you once for all time and eternity in a single moment. Have it done with and be sure you’re saved. Own the Bible as Absolute Truth without error. That’s the only way “in” with God. If you don’t do it, you’ll be forever “out” with God and He will out you to the Lake of Fire forever.

            What’s it going to be? Are you going for certitude or will you stay ignorant?

            • Lanny A. Eichert September 20, 2015 at 6:21 pm

              Mary, you’re fingered for Jesus’ love by which He assumed your guilt and endured your punishment. You don’t need to be so irritated and bothered as you last two posts this morning show you to be. You react just like Cain of whom it is written: the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. {Genesis 4: 6 & 7} The “sin” here referenced is an animal available for Cain to be his substitutionary sin offering to eventually be fulfilled in Christ on the Cross. All YOU have to do is accept Jesus as your Absolute Substitute and know He, in your place, satisfied all of God’s judicial claims against Mary Vanderplas’ life from your conception to your mortal death. That is the Good News Gospel for you, Mary, that Jesus paid it all to make you absolutely perfect before Holy God the exact moment you stopped believing the wrong stuff and started believing the right stuff. That perfection means that, from that very moment, Jesus takes over the control of your whole body, soul, and spirit. You will no longer have self-rights, but you will be God’s slave. God will separate you from this world and what it loves. God will give you a new heart and a new spirit to believe and obey Him; and His Holy Spirit will come into your body, soul, and spirit to comfort, guide, and empower you to live holy. That’s the promised New Covenant of Jeremiah 31: 31 – 34 and Ezekiel 36: 25 – 27 and 2 Corinthians 3: 3. That is what salvation is all about: a life saved in this mortality to serve God faithfully according to His design during mortality and beyond. Will you try it? There is no turning back. It’s called regeneration and it actually happens: it is real, Alice {Titus 3: 5}.

              • Mary Vanderplas September 21, 2015 at 5:02 am

                Unbelievable. When all else fails, you try to make this about my “anger issues.” No, this isn’t about me. It’s about YOUR false and hypocritical claim to believe every word of the Bible while you fragrantly violate the command to love your neighbor by judging and condemning others. It’s about YOUR hero-villain worldview and your painting a picture of your friend the martyr, rejected by his family – a picture that, alas, bears no resemblance to reality. It’s about YOUR making adherence to your fallible beliefs the standard for determining who’s in and who’s out with God, both now and eternally.

                Don’t tell me, let me guess: when women in your church dare to speak up and challenge the teaching espoused by the leaders, they’re written off as being “angry” and “difficult.” Yup, that’s what I thought.

                Dialoguing with you is a pointless exercise if there ever was one. I’m done.

                • Lanny A. Eichert September 21, 2015 at 10:34 am

                  Mary, Jesus saves. Jesus saves from “anger issues.” If you’d only get saved, you could be a pleasant person. There is ONLY ONE way. There ARE only heroes and villains. I’m one of the heroes and you’re one of the villains. The truth is the truth and that’s what so irritates you. You spent almost all your life believing a lie and here I come showing you the truth. The truth can set you free from your feminism and change you from an angry woman to a lovely woman, but that’s a decision you have to make. You need to know and accept Jesus assumed all your anger upon His whole body, soul, and spirit when He was on the Cross and endured God’s wrath against your sins as your Substitute, totally satisfying God’s justice on your behalf. In doing so, the judicial means were accomplished to, in an instant, remove from you all your sins: past, present, and future; if only you’ll believe it and He would then count (impute) Jesus’ mortal righteousness to your account, making you perfect and fitting you for fellowship with Him and with all His saints, even me. Without holiness, Mary, you are not enabled to see God and as I have previously proven, you don’t have any holiness. Get with God’s Gospel program, Mary, and believe it. It is the way to happiness and you sure need it. The alternative is everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire from which there is no escape for refusing the Gospel. Which way will you go, Mary? The choice is yours.

                  • Mary Vanderplas September 22, 2015 at 5:05 am

                    Just keep running – frantically trying to convince yourself and the rest of the world that you’re morally perfect, in the face of unmistakable evidence to the contrary, dismissing anyone, especially a woman, who dares to confront you with the truth about who you are and what you do. What a joke.

                    Pity the women in your church – women who have been brainwashed into believing that for women to speak up and challenge the behavior and/or teaching of men is wrong and “unlovely.” Pity the women who don’t know that they don’t have to stay trapped in an oppressive system, that they can be free to voice their views and to exercise their authority and use their gifts for the sake of Christ’s church and the kingdom. Pity the women who have been indoctrinated in the false teaching that it’s the will of God that women are subservient to men, listening and following, instead of thinking and acting for themselves according to the Spirit’s leading. Pity the women who don’t know that they don’t have to be around men who dominate and exploit them. Pity the women who don’t know that they don’t have to be around men who are threatened by their abilities and who suppress the expression of their gifts. Pity the women who don’t know that they don’t have to be around men who react to criticism by spewing patronizing shit about the one who dared to criticize being “unpleasant,” “disagreeable,” “angry,” blah-blah-blah – in a desperate effort to deflect attention from their own moral failures and to preserve their own fragile egos.

                    Haven’t I advised you before of the futility of trying to foist your crap on someone who’s trained and savvy in human behavior, as I am. You may be able to dump your crap on the untutored, but that you can’t unload it on me should be painfully clear.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 22, 2015 at 4:42 pm

                      Spitfire Mary, why do you launch another feminist tirade without seeing how angry and vulgar it reads? It is far from Christian and far from holy. Look, you’re the first one to use the words of yourself ‘my “anger issues” on the 21st at 5:02 am while I had repeatedly used just “so irritated and bothered.” I think the words “pleasant person” triggered you, didn’t it? Do you deny you have anger issues? As I wrote Jesus saves people from anger issues, or didn’t you know that they are mostly unjustifiable sins? {Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Ephesians 4: 26 & 27} You have been carrying these sins for a long time, haven’t you? Aren’t you tired of being angry and bitter? Wouldn’t you like to be a happy-go-lucky I’ve-got-the-world-on-a-string sort of pleasant positive type person to be around? You can’t fight men and be that kind of person, Mary. For one “who’s trained and savvy in human behavior” as you say you are, why aren’t you picking up on your own behavior this morning. I don’t think you should respond in the early morning, but rather later in the day when you’ve had a chance to calm down and reality has sunk into your mind.

                      More than fifty years ago I got saved, so I have know 1 John 5: 19 for many years and am so convinced that I need not go about frantically trying to convince myself of its truth. “And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness” I am “of God”, Mary, as is every one of God’s fundamentally born again believers, but you are not one of us because you are of the world comfortable with its anger and vulgarity as evidenced in your morning tirade today. Jesus would save you from your misery and give you His joy if you’d only believe He actually took all the sins of your entire life upon His own body, soul, and spirit while He was on the Cross where His suffering satisfied God’s justice specifically on your behalf as your Substitute. Two thousand years ago Jesus suffered and died for Mary Vanderplas to actually take completely away from her a life-time of sins and give her His righteousness to make her fit to commune with His Father, God of all creation. Are you going to let that go to waste and incur the eternal wrath of God in the Lake of Fire without remedy? Why, Mary? Why?

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 23, 2015 at 5:29 am

                      Pity the person who claims to trust God’s love giving him worth, making him right with God, but who spends his life running from the truth of his sinfulness, focusing on the “badness” of others in an effort to establish his own goodness, trying desperately (and futilely) to make himself worthy and acceptable. No, your life of faith is not something I would ever seek.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 23, 2015 at 12:23 pm

                      Mary, Jesus would save you from your misery and give you His joy if you’d only believe the Biblical Good News Gospel instead of your liberal no gospel at all.

                      ALICE, haven’t I preached to Mary the all-of-God-and-none-of-man grace Gospel and she has rejected it in hopes of her own value?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 23, 2015 at 5:52 pm

                      Mary, maybe this will help your understanding:

                      Imputation. A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or that of his federal head. While impute is used in scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4, 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:

                      Imputation of Adam’s Sin. First it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned to them; that is, it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous: “By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” Rom. 5:19.

                      Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us. Second, imputation has a second major use in scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense “imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He — (1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the reward due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8,9” (A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15.)

                      That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18,19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God. . . This signifies a legal imputation, not a “moral infusion” of righteousness . . . not in our works, or even in our faith. By faith we receive Christ as our righteousness, but we must never locate the merit of our justification in our act of faith. No action of ours, even our believing, is perfect. Thus no action of ours, even our believing, can be the ground of our justification, which demands a perfect righteousness” 1 Cor. 1:30.

                      Understanding Imputation Yields Assurance. As long as Christians keep dissecting their own faith to see if they “really” believed, felt enough penitent emotion, prayed the right prayer, or have performed to a sufficient high standard, they will destroy assurance. There is no perfection in the best we have done or can do. And yet assurance demands a perfect foundation on which to rest. We have that foundation in the perfect righteousness of Christ, which God has made over to the account of every believer. He who believes in Christ stands before God’s judgment bar as if he personally had rendered the perfect obedience of the Lord Jesus. . .This is the liberty from having to establish our own righteousness before God, or having to do something to gain his acceptance. Christ has done all that. Now we serve, not to be justified, but because we are “justified freely by grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” Rom. 3:24.

                      Dictionary of Theological Terms, Alan Cairns

                      http://scripturetruths.homestead.com/articles/imputedrighteousness.html

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 24, 2015 at 5:08 am

                      I know what the doctrine of penal substitution and the notion of imputed guilt and righteousness say. I don’t need help understanding. What I “need help with” is swallowing the wholly illogical: that guilt and righteousness can be transferred from one party to another. No court would allow an innocent person to be punished in place of a guilty person. And even if this did happen, it wouldn’t change the fact that the guilty person is still guilty. The doctrine of imputation simply makes no sense. Because of what God in Christ has done for us, we are forgiven sinners, but we are sinners nonetheless. The difference is that as those who have been forgiven, we are free to live a new life in relationship with God, others, and ourselves.

                      Neither assenting to an illogical doctrine nor having faith is the ground for assurance that we are saved. Only God’s grace is. That God loves us and accepts us apart from anything we do, apart from our “having faith,” is the good news of the gospel. Only if faith is conceived of as a requirement that must be met in order to be saved will people be inclined to examine their faith anxiously to see if it meets the criteria for earning God’s love and acceptance. Faith rightly understood isn’t a requirement for salvation; it’s the means of experiencing what is already true, what God has already done for us in Christ to make things right between us.

                      I’m done on this. I’ve already discussed this at length, and have nothing further to say. That you and I don’t agree is clear enough. Don’t waste your time trying to convince me of the truth of something I don’t buy.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 24, 2015 at 3:55 pm

                      Mary, you “need help with” swallowing the wholly illogical: that guilt and righteousness can be transferred from one party to another. No court … you’re right. Luke 18: 27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

                      How could the entire creation come into being simply by God speaking words. It happened. There is no better explanation. Evolution falls to explain the complexity we now know exists in life as well as in the inorganic world. Intelligence was necessary. God said it was by His spoken words and that’s the way it was; and that’s what we are supposed to believe and are held morally responsible to believe it. It is wholly illogical to us, yet we are under moral obligation to believe it. Since it is true and we believe it to be true, we are able to say we KNOW it is true.

                      Salvation from a human perspective, Mary, is totally impossible and wholly illogical. God cannot forgive on a whim. Sin must be punished or there is no justice with God. If “what God in Christ has done for us” was not “penal substitution” then WHAT was it? What you have is Christ, the victim of a political/religious plot suffering abuses as an example for us; and nothing more. You have no salvation, no forgiveness. Mary you write of “what God has already done for us in Christ to make things right between us” but you never say what that is. WHAT has He done? Forgive us on a whim? I know you reject the whim. So on what basis does He forgive? On grace alone? Then there’s no justice with God, because sins are not punished.

                      Don’t you see you reject the foundation of forgiveness? God cannot forgive without the penalty paid and maintain His justice. The article above gives you the proof texts of penal substitution, and just like the creation narrative is required faith, so is penal substitution. It is impossible for God to save you without your faith in Christ’s payment of your penal sentence. Again because God said He spoke things into existence, so also Jesus received our guilt unto Himself on the Cross and suffered its legal penalty according to the texts in the perfect literal Holy Bible, which is God’s spelt words, God speaking to you telling you what God in Christ has done for us.

                      For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: {1 Corinthians 15: 3 & 4}

                      Why FOR our sins, Mary? What’s “for” mean?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 24, 2015 at 5:52 pm

                      Mary, I’m also surprised by you who ought to know all about the animal sacrifices offered under the Mosaic Law and how they are explained in the Epistle to the Hebrews. It was all picturing the transfer of sin and guilt to an animal which had to died or wander away (scapegoat) in the wilderness, which God called a covering until Christ died making that transfer once for all permanent. The concept of imputation is that old and perhaps older still going back to the coats of skin God provided for Adam and Eve. Your problem is purely a western mindset that brings confusion to an ancient oriental manuscript, called the Holy Bible, which still applies today. God pictured it, accomplished it, and explained it. Now you need to believe it and know it is real for you, too, to be saved. Until you do you have no salvation.

                      Once a criminal serves his sentence he is no longer a criminal. Jesus served my sentence and now I am no longer a criminal against God, a sinner; but I am a called saint, an holy one, deemed righteous according to Jesus’ sinless earth life. Therefore I can say with Paul:
                      forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. {Philippians 3: 13b & 14}

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 25, 2015 at 5:15 am

                      Salvation is not illogical. There’s a difference between illogical and incomprehensible. That divine truth exceeds our capacity to understand and that it can’t be attained by human reason doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense. The doctrine of imputation doesn’t make sense; it’s illogical. Our guilt didn’t magically disappear when Jesus died on the cross and rose again. We are still guilty sinners. The difference is that because Jesus suffered with us and for us, we can know the depth of his love and forgiveness. We are no longer bound by our sin and guilt, but are free for God and others.

                      Jesus’ death on the cross means just this: that our debts are forgiven, that things are made right between us and God. It isn’t that a revenge-seeking God had to be bought off, or that a legal demand had to be met, in order for God to forgive us. The cross of Christ is the proof of God’s love for us, not a preliminary condition that had to be met before God could or would love us and save us. It was God in Christ “paying the price” in the sense of standing with us in our sin and alienation so that we can know how much we’re loved and be brought back to him, brought back to the relationship with God for which we were created. This is what forgiveness is about. It’s the restoration of a relationship, not merely the cancellation of (deserved) punishment. In terms of the justice of God and the legal imagery used to talk about the meaning of Jesus’ death, the cross isn’t simply a matter of God’s righteous judgment against us being satisfied by the death of a substitute. It’s that the justice of God is demonstrated precisely in his willingness to pay the debt to the law that had to be paid, precisely in his self-giving love. The picture is hardly one of an angry God demanding a pound of flesh in order for his wrath to be appeased. It is rather one of a loving God who stops at nothing in order to show his love and make right what is wrong with us and in us.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2015 at 3:33 pm

                      Mary, Thank you for your effort at explaining the suffering of Christ “with us and for us”, “standing with us in our sin and alienation”, “in his willingness to pay the debt to the law that had to be paid, precisely in his self-giving love.” You wrote, “It is rather one of a loving God who stops at nothing in order to show his love and make right what is wrong with us and in us.” Yet what you have portrayed is a Christ who “has buddied up to us” in suffering the abuse of the world and the abuse of our own sins, but goes no further. You further wrote, ‘It was God in Christ “paying the price” in the sense of standing with us in our sin and alienation so that we can know how much we’re loved’ saying the same thing as if the price He paid was a humiliation sufficient to bring us back to God. According to you the PRICE Jesus paid was HUMILIATION. The price of God’s love was the humiliation of His Son: that God became a man and endured that humiliation. Since as a man He endured human abuses, He demonstrated God loves sinners. That’s all there is to Mary’s Savour.

                      Mary, forgiveness is not JUST knowing we are loved. No court will ever say to a murderer, “We love you so go free; you will not ever be executed or jailed for killing a person.” Forgiveness involves our sins and sins are crimes against God and crimes are legal violations of God’s laws. Therefore forgiveness is a legal event. Again, God is not able to forgive (on a whim) without a just reason that satisfies His Law. Just because Jesus became a man and put His loving arms around us doesn’t judicially satisfy any debit of our sins. You call God “a revenge-seeking God” just because He insists on justice. That’s a totally unfair characterization of God. God is not vengeful when He insists a sentence be carried out against sin. He is just being faithful to His Law. He is “a faithful God” is the proper way to characterize God when speaking of He behavior toward His Law. Since He is faithful to His Law, He must require our sentences be PAID: the sentences specified in His Law. ONLY on the basis of a satisfied Law is God able to forgive our sins. God is not flippant like us to whimsically forgive people. He must be faithful to His Law, otherwise He is an unjust Judge. What you have set up is the mere power of God’s love alone forgives and you have an unjust Judge. Don’t you see, Mary, the Sufferings of Christ, the Price Jesus paid, the Cross of Christ, the Death of Christ are all judicially the demands of God’s Law that God substitutionally satisfied for us with His Son. God Himself as our Substitute because He loved us was faithful to His Law to do what we could not (were not able) to do: an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth; that He might put away His Law and thereafter be gracious to us taking us out from under His Law and putting us under His grace.

                      Mary, you wrote, “Our guilt didn’t magically disappear when Jesus died on the cross and rose again.” That’s right. Each person must put their own individual trust in Jesus’ judicial payment for their sins before their guilt disappears. That’s how salvation works. Unfortunately >90% of the world’s population through the centuries have refused or neglected to do that, which is evidence that Matthew 7: 13 & 14 is true, that, bottom line, God hasn’t been able to save everybody He created. Though He’d like everybody to be save, not everybody wants to be saved, so since God respects the human free will He created in them, He forces nobody; and is unable to see them all saved. He reconciles them, still in their sin (unforgiven & guilty), to their own reward of everlasting torment in the Lake of Fire without remedy.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2015 at 4:15 pm

                      Mary, why did Jesus cry out on the Cross, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” {Psalm 22: 1; Matthew 27: 46; Mark 15: 34}
                      Why did God, specifically Himself, forsake Him?

                      Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin {Isaiah 53: 10}
                      Why was it Yahweh, not the world, that “bruised” Him?

                      Are you unable to see the judicial sentence of our sins being carried out upon Jesus?

                      But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. {Isaiah 59: 2}
                      Did this happen to Christ?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2015 at 5:42 pm

                      Mary, Hebrews 9: 22b “without the shedding of blood is no remission” and in verses 12 and 24 Jesus brought His own blood into the Holy of Holies which is in heaven and He sprinkled His blood on the Ark of the Covenant in heaven between the cherubim where God dwells to make atonement (reconciliation) for our sins. That’s actual fact, not picture language. The picture was in Israel when their high priest did that on the Day of Atonement in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. The actual was when Jesus died on the Cross and brought His own blood to heaven. Now look, the shedding of blood means death and the wages of sin is death, so obviously Jesus suffered the legal penalty for our sins on the Cross. Death is both physical and spiritual (alienation from God) and Jesus suffered BOTH. Without the shedding of blood is no remission: remission is the forgiveness of sins and, Mary, you can’t get forgiven unless Jesus died as your Substitute in death, the legal penalty of sin. In order to do that your sins had to be imputed (transferred) to Him. We all are responsible to believe that because God told us it was so. That’s the faith required to be saved and without it you cannot be forgiven. So believe it, will you?

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 26, 2015 at 6:39 am

                      What I said is that Christ, who is God-with-us, stands with us in the death we bring on ourselves when we turn from God and his purposes for us; he takes on himself the painful consequences of our sin, so that we, who are guilty, may go free and become free for God and others. What God did goes way beyond what is fair or necessary in order to meet the legal demand that debts be paid. How often does the judge say to the murderer, “You will not have to serve the sentence that your act of killing another human being requires. I will go to jail or be put to death in your place.”? There is nothing fair about this; and it isn’t even possible for one person to pay for what another person has done. Guilt can’t be transferred. The notion of retributive justice, the payment of debts to fulfill a legal demand, isn’t sufficient to explain what God did in the cross of Christ. The cross has more to do with love that says, “In spite of the fact that you are guilty, in spite of all the ways you have contradicted my purposes and turned from me, I still love you. Therefore, I will suffer with you and for you so that you can be free from your sins and have a new beginning with me and others.” This isn’t a denial of justice. It isn’t to say that God simply winks at our sin. It is rather to affirm that the death of Christ reveals the God who takes upon himself our sin and alienation so that we may be free from the burden of our guilt to live our lives in loving relationship with God and others.

                      Our guilt doesn’t magically disappear when we put our trust in Christ any more than it did when Jesus died and rose again. We are still guilty sinners, but sinners who know ourselves to be forgiven and therefore who are free to love and to allow ourselves to be loved. As to “how salvation works,” it is by God’s grace alone, not by meeting this or that requirement.

                      Jesus’ cry on the cross is an expression of anguish and abandonment. It echoes the cries of righteous sufferers throughout the ages. It is not a theological statement about Jesus experiencing God’s rejection of us because of our sin. The New Testament nowhere pictures God being against us and needing to be reconciled to us. If Jesus’ death on the cross is to be seen as a sacrifice or as fulfilling a legal requirement in our stead, then it must be seen as God himself making the sacrifice, God sacrificing himself in order to end the hostility on our part and bring us back to him. There is no third party intervening in order to satisfy the justice of God so that God can change from hostility to love and forgiveness toward his human creatures.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2015 at 6:40 pm

                      Mary, these two statements are equal and mean co-suffering, again being that Christ “buddied up” to us, but we still suffer death in this life and the life to come, but experientially with the partial participation of Christ. That’s not eternal life salvation at all; and you still have no Savour.

                      #1) Christ, who is God-with-us, stands with us in the death we bring on ourselves when we turn from God and his purposes for us; he takes on himself the painful consequences of our sin, so that we, who are guilty, may go free and become free for God and others.
                      #2) I will suffer with you and for you so that you can be free from your sins and have a new beginning with me and others.

                      Your idea is only of Jesus as a loving friend enduring the ravages of our sins while we are enduring them, not saving us FROM the ravages of sins. Your Jesus is not a Deliverer, just One who in some unspecified amount shares our suffering. There is no being free from our sins if Christ is suffering them WITH us. Only if Jesus suffers instead of us and in our place (the consequences of our sins) can we be set free from them. Don’t you see this?

                      Again Mary, Hebrews 9: 22b “without the shedding of blood is no remission” and in verses 12 and 24 Jesus brought His own blood into the Holy of Holies which is in heaven and He sprinkled His blood on the Ark of the Covenant in heaven between the cherubim where God dwells to make atonement (reconciliation) for our sins. That’s actual fact, not picture language. The picture was in Israel when their high priest did that on the Day of Atonement in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. The actual was when Jesus died on the Cross and brought His own blood into heaven. Now look, the shedding of blood means death and the wages of sin is death, so obviously Jesus suffered the legal penalty for our sins on the Cross. Death is both physical and spiritual (alienation from God) and Jesus suffered BOTH. Without the shedding of blood is no remission: remission is the forgiveness of sins and, Mary, you can’t get forgiven unless Jesus died as your Substitute in death, the legal penalty of sin. In order to do that your sins had to be imputed (transferred) to Him. We all are responsible to believe that because God told us it was so. That’s the faith required to be saved and without it you cannot be forgiven. So believe it, will you? God said He did it this way, so who are you to say, “it isn’t even possible for one person to pay for what another person has done?”

                      God did make the Sacrifice. There’s no third party. The Father and the Son are One God.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 27, 2015 at 5:59 am

                      I would say that Jesus takes the punishment for our sin upon himself. I just wouldn’t say that his death on our behalf satisfies the justice of a Judge who is against us so that the Judge is able to love and accept us. The Bible is clear that Jesus’ death is a demonstration of God’s love, not a means of securing that love. Jesus died because God already loved us, not because God had to be bought off or won over by having a legal requirement that sins be atoned for fulfilled. God forgives us not because Jesus paid the price so that God could turn toward us in love, but because the God who was always turned toward us in love acted to take on himself the consequences of the sin that separated us from him. Neither would I say that the legal and sacrificial imagery of the Bible is intended to convey a transaction in which our guilt is imputed or transferred to Christ. It is silly to talk about Jesus deserving our punishment because our guilt has somehow been transferred to him so that now he is legally guilty. No one’s guilt can be transferred to another person. No one’s guilt can be removed by another person. Jesus’ death means not that our guilt has been magically removed, but that God forgives our debts, that the just judgment of God against us because of our sin has been executed in such a way that we who are guilty are made free to turn from our hostility to God toward a new life of love for God and others. By the death of Jesus for us, in our place, the alienation between us and God has been healed.

                      That the Bible has more than one picture of the meaning of Jesus’ death should be enough to disabuse anyone of the notion that what God did in the cross of Christ can be explained by any one theory of the atonement. The legal and sacrificial imagery that is used give undeniably powerful pictures of God’s acting to reveal his just love and loving justice toward sinners. But to turn the pictures into hard explanations in which God is a slave to a legal demand and divine justice is strictly retributive is, in my view, seriously misguided.

                    • Stephen Helbig September 27, 2015 at 4:34 pm

                      Embrace ~ love ~ and let that define what justice is. ~ This is the heart cry of Jesus and true Christianity, ~ The face of God shown to man!

                      “Whose justice?” really is the question we as Christians need to wrestle with, ~ just as Mary rightfully discerned, and I applaud her following quote, ~

                      “That the Bible has more than one picture of the meaning of Jesus’ death should be enough to disabuse anyone of the notion that what God did in the cross of Christ can be explained by any one theory of the atonement. The legal and sacrificial imagery that is used give undeniably powerful pictures of God’s acting to reveal his just love and loving justice toward sinners. But to turn the pictures into hard explanations in which God is a slave to a legal demand and divine justice is strictly retributive is, in my view, seriously misguided” ~ end quote Mary

                      If we begin with sin as the willing diminishment of relational love with the following, that being a love toward (1) God, (2) self, (3)others, and (4) the world, ~ and if we define atonement as the work of God to restore cracked “Eikons” (:eikon” ~ meaning man created in God’s “image”), ~ we will find that in those (1-4) directions of “relational love”, we now can truly define God’ “Justice”: ~ God’s Justice revealed in us entails a life of relational love for God, self, others, and the world. ~ This is the atonement or (“at-one-ment”) which God has redeemed for and in mankind, and any theory of atonement that does not have as its goal, a society, a kingdom, and a people, swimmingly happy in this kind of love/justice of God, is not a complete biblical theory of atonement.

                      Justice in the Bible begins with an act of God’s creative, gracious forgiveness and healing. Justice in the Bible is not just deconstruction and construction, but creative, regenerating grace. Which leads us to the flip side for humans: ~ Christian behavioral justice begins in this same way ~ with humans creating justice through grace, forgiveness, and love. Unless we are able to judge as Jesus judge us, we do not judge with His righteousness. ~ God’s redemptive, atoning work is to create a society wherein justice is not only established in law but also lived out by breathing, feeling human beings.
                      ——————————————————————————————————–

                      p.s. ~ Isaiah’s famous song of the vineyard, which was God’s indictment of Israel and its leaders and the society they’ve created, says this of God (Isa. 5:7): ~ “he expected justice, but saw bloodshed; righteousness, but heard a cry!”

                      p.s.s. ~ “See, I am laying in Zion a foundation stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation: “One who trusts will not panic.” And I will make justice the line, and righteousness the plummet, and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.” (Isa, 28:16-17 ) 

                      p.s.s.t. ~ And one more hopeful picture of the day God reigns in us: ~ “Then justice will dwell in the wilderness, and righteousness abide in the fruitful field. The effect of righteousness will be peace, and the result of righteousness, quietness and trust forever. My people will abide in a peaceful habitation, in secure dwellings, and in quiet resting places.”  (Isa. 32:16-18)

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 27, 2015 at 5:30 pm

                      Mary, the just judgment of God against us because of our sin has been executed in WHAT such a way? You don’t know, because you reject the death of the Innocent One in the place of the guilty ones. You reject it because of you desire to make “love” preeminent beyond reasonableness. God is not capable of loving and accepting us as long as sin is in us.

                      Isaiah 59: 2 your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

                      God must REMOVE our sins BEFORE He can love us. God loved us to DO just that: remove our sins. Now He can love His believers and as well as hate the wicked {Psalm 11: 5 & 6} passionately.

                      Hebrews 9: 22b “without the shedding of blood is no remission” and in verses 12 and 24 Jesus brought His own blood into the Holy of Holies which is in heaven and He sprinkled His blood on the Ark of the Covenant in heaven between the cherubim where God dwells to make atonement (reconciliation) for our sins. That’s actual fact, not picture language.

                      Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. {Hebrews 9: 12}
                      It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us {Hebrews 9: 23 & 24}

                      That’s actual fact, not picture language. The picture was in Israel when their high priest did that on the Day of Atonement in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. The actual was when Jesus died on the Cross and brought His own blood into heaven.

                      Now look, the shedding of blood means death and the wages of sin is death, so obviously Jesus suffered the legal penalty for our sins on the Cross. Death is both physical and spiritual (alienation from God) and Jesus suffered BOTH. Without the shedding of blood is no remission: remission is the forgiveness of sins and, Mary, you can’t get forgiven unless Jesus died as your Substitute in death, the legal penalty of sin. In order to do that your sins had to be imputed (transferred) to Him.

                      We all are responsible to believe that because God told us it was so. That’s the faith required to be saved and without it you cannot be forgiven. God said He did it this way, so who are you to say, “No one’s guilt can be transferred to another person. No one’s guilt can be removed by another person.?” So believe it, will you? Stop leaning on your own understanding.

                      Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. {Proverbs 3: 5}

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 28, 2015 at 1:06 am

                      Mary the Revelation 11: 19 verifies for us there is a real temple in Heaven with an Ark of the Covenant making it a real application of Christ’s actual blood.

                      And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament.

                      Hebrews 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true (which true one actually exists in heaven).

                      Verse 12 by his own blood he (Jesus) entered in once into the holy place (in the temple in heaven), having obtained eternal redemption.

                      Because verse 22 all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

                      The law is a legal device to both define and purge our sins. Jesus did the legal thing required by God in His Law as our Substitute. That legal thing Jesus did has been prophesied throughout the Bible which in itself is called the Law. The Law of God prophesied God Himself would sacrifice Himself in our place, Substitute Him for us, and He accomplished it on the Cross. It is proven doctrine, so believe it.

                      As far as Stephen’s comment, what he fails to realize as he quoted you, Mary, is that God is a slave to Himself. It is called FAITHFULNESS. God cannot lie. God is faithful to His own Law. The soul that sins must die. One way or another that soul dies, either himself or his Substitute, Jesus Christ, in his place. God said it, now you best believe it.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 28, 2015 at 5:02 am

                      Stephen, I like what you say by way of defining God’s justice as a justice that forgives and that heals twisted relationships. And I like your extension of this to our doing of justice as a matter of practicing grace, love, and forgiveness in our relations with others, to the end that God’s rule of justice and love is made visible in society and the world.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 28, 2015 at 5:05 am

                      Lanny, Christ’s death is the execution of the just judgment of God against us because of our sin. God’s justice is thereby shown to be a loving justice: God took upon himself the sentence that we deserved. God set aside the claims of the law on sinners, suffering himself the sanctions of the law in the place of sinners. The justice of God cannot be understood apart from God’s love. It is not a strict retributive justice that demands that sinners pay the penalty for their sins. It is instead a justice that has in mind the restoration of sinners to relationship with their Creator. (See Stephen’s insightful comments about the relational goal of the revelation of divine justice.) Both God’s justice and God’s love are demonstrated in the cross of Christ. God didn’t need Jesus to die so that, his wrath appeased, he could approve of us. This is pagan heresy, not biblical teaching, not gospel truth. The God revealed in Jesus Christ loved sinners and acted to take our sin and its consequences upon himself so that we can be free. God’s act in Christ shows the depth of God’s love and proves that we are forgiven.

                      I’m done discussing this. That you and I have different understandings of the cross of Christ and the justice of God displayed in God’s saving act, as well as of the nature of the language used in scripture to interpret the meaning of Jesus’ death, is clear.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 28, 2015 at 9:36 am

                      Mary, you wrote, “God set aside the claims of the law on sinners, suffering himself the sanctions of the law in the place of sinners.” IN THE PLACE OF SINNERS You mean He “substituted” Himself into their place, right? That’s why, according to your words, He “set aside the claims of the law on sinners” because He suffered as their substitute, right? Don’t you see that if He became their Substitute, He didn’t set anything aside, but rather He exercised those claims/sanctions upon Himself to free them from sinners, but only those who would believe. All unbelieving sinners still have that condemnation: those claims/sanctions pending upon them. Jesus saves only God’s believers and all the rest perish forever in the Lake of Fire with their sins still attached to them.

                      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. {John 8: 24}

                      Those who are God’s believers have their sins removed the moment they believe and are saved making them fit to commune with God. Why won’t you become one of them? It is the truth, not paganism.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 29, 2015 at 5:03 am

                      What we’re talking about here is not a God who is focused legalistically on the payment of debts so that sinners can escape deserved judgment and be made instantly fit, by some divine hocus pocus removing their guilt, to stand in his presence, but a God who loves sinners and stops at nothing to overcome the barriers of guilt and self-justification that separate them from him, forgiving them and making them free to love him, others, and themselves. Yes, God suffers with us and for us, as our substitute, if you will, paying the price for our sin, but this is not an act performed by a legalistic judge who must see that the demands of the law are enforced in order to be able to love and forgive the justly accused. It is, rather, an act performed by a judge who is graciously oriented toward the guilty and who acts to end the hostility and the alienation from him and others that their fear of judgment inevitably creates.

                      That’s it. I’m done on this subject.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 29, 2015 at 12:00 pm

                      Mary, you write, “a God who loves sinners and stops at nothing to overcome the barriers”, Who STOPS AT NOTHING and then you say He hadn’t “focused legalistically on the payment of debts” as if that’s NOT part of stopping at nothing. You go on to admit substitution, specifically that He paid the price and try to deny it is not fulfilling the legalistic demands of the law. On one hand you admit the legal truth and on the other you attempt to deny it, trying to foremost justify love. Justification is a legal function which has to do with the technicalities of the law which must be technically met. Love in this case is the “motivation” not the means. Payment is made in precise suffering. Legally the suffering does not require love, only commitment. That the suffering did contain love is judicially irrelevant, though Scripturally correct. God’s salvation is made possible only by the deed of Substitutionary suffering, not by the decision/emotion of love. That decision had to be proven in deed.

                      You’ve come a long way from an outright denying of Substitution at the beginning of our discussion to now admitting it. Please come all the way to its legality and you may be close to believing unto eternal life OR having enough knowledge to make your condemnation worse than it was at the beginning.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 30, 2015 at 5:09 am

                      If God were just some legalistic judge bound to enforce the demands of the law without regard for the well-being of the lawbreakers, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. It is only because God’s justice is a LOVING justice that God did what he did in taking the penalty for our sin upon himself so that we can go free and become free. To talk about Jesus’ death and what it accomplished as a strictly legal matter of debts being paid so that justice is done and the guilty are released from having to pay is to miss the whole point of the gospel – which is that a LOVING God executes his justice in such a way that those who are justly accused can have freedom and life. God’s love for sinners has everything to do with our salvation/justification.

                      You say that God’s love motivated God’s act of substitutionary suffering, yet you insist, contradictorily, that Jesus’ death was necessary to end God’ hostility toward sinners and make them fit for relationship with him. You say that Jesus’ suffering contained love, while asserting that God’s justice had to be satisfied, that the legal demand had to be met, before God could forgive sinners and make them sinless saints worthy of his love. Which is it? Is God FOR us, motivated by love and showing love to end the hostility and alienation that characterize our relationship with him? Or is he AGAINST us, in need of being appeased before he can turn toward us in love? You can’t speak out of both sides of your mouth at once.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 30, 2015 at 10:07 am

                      Mary, what is the nature of the Law? Is there mercy and grace in the Law? NO
                      He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses {Hebrews 10: 28}

                      The Law is harsh and unbending. So God was hard and unbending when our Substitute, Christ, bore our sins on the Cross. What is this well-being of lawbreakers who are condemned to die? Some kind of “nice” death? Some kind of “nice” flames in hell? God indeed was just some perfect legalistic judge bound to enforce the demands of His law without regard for the well-being of His Own Son. When Abraham laid Isaac on the wood, Isaac wasn’t wearing protective clothing. God knew the harshness of the Law and mercilessly bruised His Own Son regardless, FOR US. That’s the love you’re wanting to see, “that stops at nothing” to save all who will believe it.

                      He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. {Hebrews 10: 28 – 31}

                      Love that stops at nothing transfers our sins and guilt to the Son. Love that stops at nothing exacts every detail of the Law upon our Substitute, freeing God’s believers from that terror. Love that stops at nothing transfers the perfect earth life of Jesus to God’s believers to perfectly fit them for communion with God, their Creator and Savour, because He has their well-being foremost in His heart, a well-being that is only comforted in communion with the Lover of their souls. Is God for us? Only for those who will believe Him.

                      Mary, please be one of those who will believe Him. If you will, He will remove ALL your sins, past, present, and future; and He will give you Jesus righteousness; and that will be your well-being. Otherwise you will die in your sins {John 8: 24) and have them with you in the fires of hell. Which is it, Mary?

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 1, 2015 at 5:01 am

                      If God were not a God of loving justice, if he were a callous, uncaring judge bound to enforce the law’s demands at the expense of the well-being of the lawbreakers, he would not have set aside the claims of the law on sinners and paid the penalty for our sin himself. Yes, God is harsh and uncompromising in the sense that he didn’t ignore the demands of the law; he ruled that the debt must be paid. But that in his doing of justice he is loving cannot be denied: he paid the price for us, so that we may go free. To take love out of the picture is to distort the biblical witness to the Judge who rules with justice that sins must be paid for and who in love offers to pay the debt so that we can live as those who are forgiven and free for God and others.

                      There is no silliness concerning our guilt being transferred to Christ so that he becomes justly the object of God’s wrathful judgment. There is only the Judge who has mercy on sinners and takes upon himself the penalty we deserve. Neither is there any nonsense about Christ’s righteousness being transferred to us so that we become acceptable to God and worthy of his love. In fact, we remain guilty, and by God’s grace are made right with him, accepted for who we are and freed to become who he created us to be. And this gift is for all people, because all are the objects of his unfathomable love.

                      It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God only if this God is your harsh, heartless judge who must treat us as our sin deserves. If, however, the Judge is our Advocate, “who has taken our cause in hand to defend us” (Calvin), there is no fear, only joyful thanksgiving for God’s love.

                      I have nothing more to say on this.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2015 at 10:00 am

                      Mary, it is an impossible statement you made: “In fact, we remain guilty, and by God’s grace are made right with him.” As long as we are guilty we are NOT right with God and guilt carries fear. Calvin’s statement is based on the Advocate insisting the penalty has been paid and the guilt is REMOVED. Again, Mary, if I paid for your meal at a restuarant, why are you harboring guilt at not having paid for your own meal. You would have not accepted my gracious offer even though I had paid the price. Your guilt is proof of your unbelief. Therefore, grace has profited you nothing and you are still in your sins and going to hell. The price is PAID, Mary, and there is NO cause for guilt. The criminal’s sentence is paid and he is no longer a criminal. It is PAST, done and over with, never to be remembered again. As long as you are hanging onto your guilt, you haven’t accepted forgiveness. You should know that as “someone who’s trained and savvy in human behavior”, as you are. As I said with Alice, you have complicated matters to your own undoing. It is as simple as taking God at His spelt words. Why will you remain in such bondage, Mary, when total freedom is available to you to live led by God’s Holy Spirit and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2015 at 1:59 pm

                      Mary, the Epistles to the Corinthians addresses them as SAINTS and that was not their before-conversion-history.

                      Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such WERE some of you: but ye are WASHED, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. {1 Corinthians 6: 9 – 11}

                      Conversion changed them from what they WERE to what they ARE. From sinners to saints. Why?

                      Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed AWAY; behold, all things are become NEW. And all things are of God, who hath RECONCILED us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; {2 Corinthians 5: 17 & 18}

                      All of God’s believers are called by God His SAINTS.

                      Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are SANCTIFIED in Christ Jesus, called SAINTS, with all that in EVERY PLACE call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: {1 Corinthians 1: 2} (See also 6: 1; 6: 2; 14: 33; 16: 1; & 16: 15)
                      Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with ALL the SAINTS which are in all Achaia: {2 Corinthians 1: 1} (see also 8: 4; 9: 1; 9: 12; & 13: 13)

                      Mary, how can you be WASHED and still be GUILTY?
                      How can you be SANCTIFIED and still be GUILTY?
                      How can you be JUSTIFIED and still be GUILTY?

                      Oh, yes, Mary is still guilty because she has not believed and obeyed the Gospel; at least “not yet.” She’s a “not yet believer” and as such she will never make heaven her home in the after-life, but hell awaits her where there are no second chances, just everlasting torment without remedy. Mary has not be washed, sanctified, or justified because she doesn’t believe any of those three would make her not guilty.

                      Please, Mary, believe the Gospel. After you physically die will be too late.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 2, 2015 at 5:22 am

                      God loves and accepts us just as we are, in spite of everything that’s wrong with us and in us. He makes things right between us and him, not because we’re good enough, not because we have faith, not because of anything we are or do, but solely because of his grace. There is no contradiction in affirming both that we are still guilty and that we are justified. We are guilty sinners who have been forgiven and accepted by God’s grace, freed for a new beginning with God and others. God justifies the ungodly, Paul says (Romans 4:5). It isn’t just saints who have it all together who are good with God; it’s bad people, too, who have nothing to bring to the table, who are accepted.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2015 at 3:26 pm

                      Mary, reread what you wrote! If God accepts us in our wrong, WHY does He need to JUSTIFY us. Why does He have to make things right between us and Him? As you previously noted, the problem is not with God, but with us, and we need to be changed. If we are still guilty after being justified by God, WHAT was accomplished by God’s work of justification upon us if we weren’t changed? You first say we’re accepted, and then you second say we have been forgiven and accepted: accepted twice? First without forgiveness and second because of forgiveness in grace? Do you mean by God justifies the ungodly that they are still ungodly after God justifies them?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2015 at 1:58 am

                      Mary, Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him ALL THAT BELIEVE are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you. {Acts 13: 38 – 41}

                      Mary, it does NOT say “all we” are justified; it only says “all that believe” are justified. God only justifies His believers and once He has done that, He calls them “saints”. You wrote, “It isn’t just saints who have it all together who are good with God” yet is ONLY just “saints” who are good with God. Bad people cannot be good with God if bad means bad and good means good. Those two words are opposites. “It’s bad people, too, who are good with God,” is what you just wrote. What I suppose you are trying to mean is that God takes some few impotent bad people and makes them good by justifying them by grace through faith. Still faith is necessary for God’s operation of justification to be realized by a person. The bottom line is those who have no faith in God are not therefore justified. That’s why the “many” burn forever in hell without remedy because the “many” forever refuse to believe.

                      Please, Mary, stop being one of the “many” who will burn.

                      Definition of Justification {http://thecollegeoftheology.com/justification/}

                      The believer, the one who trusts in Christ Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior is not only pronounced not guilty, is not only pronounced innocent, but is pronounced righteous (positionally now and eventually practically as well) by God (see e.g., Rom. 1:17; 3:21-24). J.I. Packer states that it (dikaioo) “…is to pronounce, accept, and treat as just, i.e., as, on the one hand, not penally liable, and, on the other, entitled to all the privileges due to those who have kept the law.”(5) In other words, God views the believer as if they had/have completely or perfectly obeyed the law (i.e., the Ten Commandments).

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 3, 2015 at 5:31 am

                      We are already right with God, accepted, forgiven, apart from anything we do. The realization that we are justified by God’s free grace in Christ frees us from our desperate, futile attempts to justify ourselves, to make ourselves worthy; it ends the hostility and alienation that characterized our relationship with God. The result is a new freedom to accept ourselves and to live wholeheartedly for God and others. The “ungodly” are still guilty, still unworthy in themselves, but the knowledge that they are made worthy by God’s grace, that things have been made right between them and God, causes them to become different.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2015 at 2:42 pm

                      Mary, the whole world of humanity from Adam and Eve to the last person who will ever be conceived is NOT “already right with God, accepted, forgiven, apart from anything we do.” If that were true Jesus would be a Liar for His John 8: 24 statement, I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. An “already right with God” gospel is a perverted “grace only” gospel and since that’s what you believe, you believe the wrong stuff and are not saved. The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? {Jeremiah 17: 9} “Believing” is not a meritorious human work; it is only receiving the truth; not a mere realization, but a commitment of trust.

                      You wrote that the ungodly who are justified by God are only differently ungodly. What a vague statement. You don’t realize, do you, that when God justifies an ungodly person, they cease to be ungodly (without/unlike God) and they become godly (with/like God). The alienation is gone and the communion is present. It is not a potential, but an actual change. God said the guilt is gone and the righteousness is come. God is right and Mary is wrong. God’s believers, every last one of them, are saints, holy ones. Saints are the “few” that find life and everybody else are the “many” that go into destruction. See Matthew 7: 13 & 14. God saves only a remnant of humanity as a contrast to the majority.

                      I wish you weren’t in the majority.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 4, 2015 at 5:22 am

                      The change is that there is a new relationship with God; where once there was alienation and hostility, now there is fellowship. And this fellowship ACTUALLY changes people. It does not, however, mean that guilt is removed, that the recipients of God’s justifying grace become morally perfect. We are still sinners, still guilty. But we are accepted, forgiven, and free for a new beginning with God and others.

                      Yes, faith is acceptance and commitment, trust in God’s love. But it is not a precondition for being accepted by God. If it were, salvation would be dependent on what we do, not solely on what God does. We are justified, made right with God, solely on the basis of God’s grace in Christ. Faith is the means by which the gift is experienced; it is NOT the basis for qualifying to receive the gift.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 4, 2015 at 7:41 pm

                      Mary, WHAT ACTUALLY CHANGED INSIDE MAN to bring about a NEW relationship? WHAT ACTUALLY CHANGED INSIDE MAN to removed the alienation and hostility? Reconciliation, you made the point, is not God changing, but man being changed. If man is not changed, reconciliation has not happened; alienation and hostility continues. Fellowship cannot happen until man is changed/reconciled to God: alienation and hostility have to be removed BEFORE fellowship happens. I certainly agree that fellowship with God changes people and makes them even MORE holy, but fellowship is not the beginning of holiness.
                      Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: {Hebrews 12: 14}

                      Don’t you see that holiness is prerequisite to fellowship (no man shall see the Lord)? I expect you to say that your idea of holiness works to allow fellowship; that man can remain a guilty sinner and fellowship with God; BUT we are back to asking WHAT CHANGED if a guilty sinner can have fellowship with God, or what NEEDED to be changed. You answer fellowship changes a man, but you have the cart BEFORE the horse. Don’t you see that? If a man is guilty, there remains an unresolved barrier between man and God and that is man’s guilt; but you say he is forgiven though still guilty. You wrote (02Oct), “There is no contradiction in affirming both ….” How can that be, since guilt is due to sin and sin is forgiven because Jesus paid the price. Do you not see that when sin goes away, so does guilt?
                      There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus {Romans 8: 1}

                      No condemnation, Mary, then who is accusing who of sin that one remains guilty?
                      Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. {Romans 8: 33 & 34} YOU, Mary, are trying to charge those whom God forgave in justification. Christ is working against you, poor Mary, pleading Mary has no case against those whom God justified and forgave. John 1: 29b Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Jesus intercedes that He took away their sins and they are gone as far as the East is from the West, no more to be remembered against them. When sins are gone, removed, there is no cause for guilt and they are guiltless.

                      Your problem is one of thinking God is not able to forget, but you fail to believe what God said; and He said that He will never remember their sins, so you disbelieve God, placing higher authority on your own logic than God’s declaration. You already said God expects you to use your intellect, but here’s one where God’s spelt words precede your logic and you are responsible to first believe God before your own thoughts. What of the nail prints which will still be in His hands and feet forever? Is God able to forget them? Therefore God must remember our sins for all eternity, isn’t that so? Will not Jesus see the wound in His own side and remember what our sins cost Him?

                      What does Jesus remember?
                      Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. {Hebrews 12: 2}

                      The JOY of purchasing to Himself God’s believers; definitely not their sins, nor the glory He had with His Father {John 17: 24}. Jesus is thrilled with overflowing joy at the “FEW” He has been able to save, who alone are God’s elect and predestinated to reign with Him forever in the glorious new heaven and new earth.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 4, 2015 at 7:47 pm

                      Mary, WHAT ACTUALLY CHANGED INSIDE MAN to bring about a NEW relationship?

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 5, 2015 at 5:11 am

                      God accepts us, forgives us, just as we are, without demanding that we do anything to make up for the wrong we have done and been. He restores fellowship with us despite everything that’s wrong with us. When we realize and accept that God loves us just as we are, we are freed from the fear that makes us respond to God in hostile and defensive ways. We are freed from having to try to justify ourselves and make God and others love and admire us – which only alienates us from them. It isn’t that God acts to make us perfect or pretends that we’re not guilty and therefore deserving of salvation; it’s that his love frees us to become the persons he created us to be. God’s love giving us worth frees us to live wholeheartedly for God and others.

                      I’m done on this. I have no more time, nor any inclination, to keep going on these subjects. Besides, everything I’m saying I’ve said before – more than a few times.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 5, 2015 at 11:25 am

                      Mary, you have a God accomplished justification that accomplishes NOTHING to reconcile man to God. I asked you what changed inside man to bring about a NEW relationship and you were unable or unwilling to tell me what. You wrote, “We are freed from having to try to justify ourselves” yet you didn’t write that’s because God justifies His believers and what that means; all because you disallow double imputation. Mary, our sins are attached to our bodies and souls, in other words, our insides. When God justifies His believer He REMOVES his sins from his body and soul, because Jesus had assumed those sins when He hung on the Cross. That’s phase one of God’s justification of His believer. Phase two is that He credits His believer with the moral earthly righteousness of Jesus and puts the Law of God in His believer’s heart and gives His believer His Holy Spirit in his body to forever be his Comforter, Guide, and Teacher. THAT’S THE CHANGE INSIDE MAN ACCOMPLISHED BY GOD FOR MAN’S NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD. Did man do anything to gain that new relationship? No. God’s believer just received it from God as a free gift of God’s grace. Why is it so hard for you to articulate the Gospel in this manner? Because you haven’t received God’s gift and have not experienced it, so everything is just theoretical with you by intellectual learning. As we say in fundamental circles, the Gospel missed you by eighteen inches, the distance between your heart and your head. You still need to be saved the Fundamental Baptist Biblical way. Pray to God, pleading with Him to open it up to your heart so you can get saved.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 6, 2015 at 5:01 am

                      When God justifies sinners, he declares that they are forgiven, accepted, just as they are. He puts things right between them and him, creating a new relationship. There is no change of the kind you imagine. God forgives our debts; he doesn’t remove our guilt. The essence of justification is NOT that we are made right with God because he took away our guilt thereby making us right inside and deserving of his grace. It’s that God acted to forgive us and free us to become different people. That Jesus bore our sins on the cross means that he paid the debt that we deserved to pay; it doesn’t mean that our guilt was transferred to him and magically eradicated. The good news of justification is that we can live as those who have been forgiven. We don’t have to pretend that we’re something we really are not (unless of course you’re a delusional fundamentalist, in which case you persist in the folly of thinking and trying, futilely, to pass yourself off as being morally perfect, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding). We can be honest about our faults, trusting God’s love making us worthy and putting an end to all fear-based efforts to make ourselves right and worthy of love and acceptance.

                      That you don’t agree with what I say doesn’t mean that I didn’t say it.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 6, 2015 at 1:38 pm

                      Mary, please think through your statement, “God forgives our debts; he doesn’t remove our guilt.” You are saying God removes the penalty, but still holds the sinner guilty of violating His Laws. WHAT are the consequences of his guilt? Will God require any OTHER consequences since you seem to mean hell fire is no longer the consequence of being guilty of violating God’s Laws? Or do you mean there are now NO consequences for violating God’s Laws? Why does Hell Fire and the Lake of Fire still exist after the Cross? Are you denying people will be thrown as waste into the Lake of Fire at the Last Judgment? Don’t you see, Mary, if God “puts things right between them and him, creating a new relationship”, that means everybody is in perfect communion with God and nobody goes to Hell? You are still using the pronoun, “us”, to mean the whole human race and not distinguishing believers from unbelievers. If you would distinguish, then you’d have the “us and them”, them being the unbelievers who go to Hell and the Lake of Fire forever.

                      You wrote, “It’s that God acted to forgive us and free us to become different people.” So becoming different people is “our” responsibility, not a God accomplishment. Don’t you see that is a human works salvation? Your salvation is that God removed only some of the imagined hindrances existing between Him and man to enable man to improve himself. You deny the “new creation” of 2 Corinthians 5: 17 is an absolutely new thing with not a speck of the old remaining. You have denied so many Scriptures, it isn’t even funny. How can you possibly call yourself a believer?

                      Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

                      Only God makes new creatures. Old things are the believers’ sins. They are passed away. Pity, you don’t know that.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2015 at 12:01 am

                      ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν
                      And forgive us our debts, as we FORGIVE our debtors {Matthew 6: 12}
                      τὰ ὀφειλήματα, ὀφείλημα opheilēma, that which is justly or legally due, a debt; metaph. offence, sin

                      τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν παραπτωμάτων
                      In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of his grace {Ephesians 1: 7}
                      τῶν παραπτωμάτων, παράπτωμα paraptōma, a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness, a sin, misdeed, transgression

                      τὴν ἄφεσιν τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν
                      In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the FORGIVENESS of sins {Colossians 1: 14}
                      τῶν ἁμαρτιῶν, ἁμαρτία hamartia, to miss the mark, that which is done wrong, sin, an offence, a violation of the divine law in thought or in act

                      In all three texts, forgive & forgiveness, are the same root, ἀφίημι aphiēmi, to send away. Mary, debts, transgressions, and sins are all SENT AWAY from God’s believer the moment he received the truth of the Gospel. The same word is used of divorce = a legal termination of relationship thus a permanent separation.

                      ὑπόδικος γένηται
                      Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become GUILTY before God {Romans 3: 19}
                      ὑπόδικος, ὑπόδικος hypodikos, From ὑπό and δίκη, under judgment, one who lost his suit, debtor to one, owing satisfaction to, of liable to punishment from God

                      Twice more the word GUILTY is used, once in 1 Corinthians 11: 27 and again in James 2: 10, but the word is a different Greek word.
                      ἔνοχος enochos, From ἐνέχω, From ἐν and ἔχω, to have within, to hold in, to be held, entangled, be held ensnared, to be engaged with, set one’s self against, hold a grudge against someone, one who is held in anything so that he cannot escape, bound under obligation, subject to, liable.

                      Mary, forgiveness is the setting free, but guilt is the bondage. You can’t have BOTH at the same time. Please mind your words, because you make a contradiction of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible. You make yourself a fool, because the Bible is always correct. There is no grudge between God and His forgiven believer, which means he is no longer guilty; he has no guilt. Forgiveness removed his guilt; he cannot be forgiven and yet guilty. If things are made right between him and God, he cannot still be guilty.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 7, 2015 at 5:04 am

                      We are guilty. The wrong that we have done, the messes we have made, our failures to do good and to take a stand for what is right and good – none of this can be removed, nor can the damage be undone. God doesn’t just snap his fingers and shout, “Guilt, be gone!” making everything okay in our lives. He forgives us – meaning that we don’t have to remain chained to the past. We don’t have to torment ourselves with how bad we are or try to make up for the bad we’ve done or the good we’ve left undone. We are free for a new beginning, a new future with God. Knowing that we’re loved, accepted, forgiven, changes us. Of course we don’t become new and different on our own – or overnight. God’s love enables us to become different, to love him and our neighbors wholeheartedly – a gradual process. His love is a renewing love.

                      The penalty for our sin has already been paid, satisfying the just requirements of the law. We are not under divine judgment understood as retributive punishment. All sinners are accepted and forgiven by God’s grace. There is no eschatological retribution, only nonretributive, saving punishment by which those who are opposed to God are called back from their evil ways and reconciled to God and others.

                      This is all I have to say. I’ve repeated these same thoughts how many times now, and still you keep asking the same questions, making the same inane comments about my eternal destiny, asserting the same garbage about “us and them” and believers being made instantaneously perfect. Take a look around: the new creation that God in Christ has brought and is bringing into being (already/not yet) – which, by the way, includes the whole of creation – is still in process, and has a long way to go before it reaches completion.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2015 at 5:12 am

                      You look around, poor Mary, and see that the world is NOT becoming a better place since the Cross.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2015 at 7:32 pm

                      Mary, What do you think divorce is? It IS at the snap of the judge’s fingers: spouse be gone and it is done! If a judge can do it so can the Supreme Judge of all the Universe do it with sin with its guilt. Why didn’t you take heed to the six Bible texts I gave you above in which I quoted from three that forgive has its root in ἀφίημι aphiēmi, to send away; the same word used for divorce. Guilt is dependant on the past, so as long as you have your guilt, you cannot escape your past. You complain I’m not logical, but you’re at the height of being illogical holding unto your guilt and trying to say you’ve been made free of it. There is no new beginning as long as you’re holding your guilt over your head, especially since you mean God, too, holds you guilty of past sins because you say He cannot forget anything. What’s going on that little brain of yours is human reasoning lacking the faith to believe what God says in His perfect literal Holy Bible which you reject as not divinely perfect without error. Any reader of our dialogue can readily see you are no believer at all; and, if they have the sense to admit it, knows you’re therefore going to hell. Change that and take God at His word when you read His words in Hebrews 8: 12

                      For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. (& 10: 17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

                      That’s the NEW Covenant (Testament) in Jesus Blood, dear Mary; the same New Testament of the Lord’s Supper. God said it and if you don’t believe it, you’ll burn in Hell for your unbelief, because you’ll die in your sins (taking them with you) as per John 8: 24. Look Mary, isn’t it Good News to be rid of your sins with its guilt? How can it be good news to still hang onto guilt? Guilt and sins are inseparable; they go together: you wear the guilt of your sins. John the Baptizer looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! And a few verse earlier {John 1: 29} John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. Let Jesus take away your sins/guilt, dear Mary, and then you’ll be immediately free living a NEW life guilt-free and holy. Isn’t that Good News? Don’t go to Hell, be a believer of God. He said it just so Mary could believe it. Get to John Dean’s sending Fundamental Baptist Church and sing with us the songs of deliverance believing God takes all the old away and gives you new abundant life “in Christ Jesus.” You’ll be “liberated”, but nothing like being a feminist. It is far more liberating being free from sin and guilt and knowing without any doubt you’re heaven bound. Do it, Mary, get saved the Fundamental Bible way.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 9, 2015 at 5:45 pm

                      O what a wonderful, wonderful day, day I will never forget;
                      After I’d wandered in darkness away, Jesus my Savior I met.
                      O what a tender, compassionate friend, He met the need of my heart;
                      Shadows dispelling, with joy I am telling, He made all the darkness depart.

                      Chorus
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul, (filled my soul)
                      When at the cross the Savior made me whole; (made me whole)
                      My sins were washed away and my night was turned to day,
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul! (filled my soul)

                      Born of the Spirit with life from above into God’s family divine,
                      Justified fully thru Calvary’s love, O what a standing is mine!
                      And the transaction so quickly was made, when as a sinner I came,
                      Took of the offer, of grace He did proffer, He saved me, O praise His dear name!

                      Chorus
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul, (filled my soul)
                      When at the cross the Savior made me whole; (made me whole)
                      My sins were washed away and my night was turned to day,
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul! (filled my soul)

                      Now I’ve a hope that will surely endure after the passing of time;
                      I have a future in heaven for sure there in those mansions sublime.
                      And it’s because of that wonderful day, when at the cross I believed;
                      Riches eternal and blessings supernal, from His precious hand I received.

                      Chorus
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul, (filled my soul)
                      When at the cross the Savior made me whole; (made me whole)
                      My sins were washed away and my night was turned to day,
                      Heaven came down and glory filled my soul! (filled my soul)

                      John W. Peterson, 1961

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 9, 2015 at 5:59 pm

                      1 Free from the law, O happy condition,
                      Jesus hath bled, and there is remission;
                      Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
                      Grace hath redeemed us once for all.

                      Chorus:
                      Once for all, O sinner, receive it,
                      Once for all, O friend, now believe it;
                      Cling to the cross, the burden will fall,
                      Christ hath redeemed us once for all.

                      2 Now we are free, there’s no condemnation,
                      Jesus provides a perfect salvation;
                      “Come unto Me,” O hear His sweet call,
                      Come, and He saves us once for all. [Chorus]

                      3 “Children of God,” O glorious calling,
                      Surely His grace will keep us from falling;
                      Passing from death to life at His call,
                      Blessed salvation once for all. [Chorus]

                      Philip P. Bliss, 1873

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 9, 2015 at 6:05 pm

                      1 There is a fountain filled with blood
                      Drawn from Immanuel’s veins;
                      And sinners, plunged beneath that flood,
                      Lose all their guilty stains:
                      Lose all their guilty stains,
                      Lose all their guilty stains;
                      And sinners, plunged beneath that flood,
                      Lose all their guilty stains.

                      2 The dying thief rejoiced to see
                      That fountain in his day;
                      And there may I, though vile as he,
                      Wash all my sins away:
                      Wash all my sins away,
                      Wash all my sins away;
                      And there may I, though vile as he,
                      Wash all my sins away.

                      3 Dear dying Lamb, Thy precious blood
                      Shall never lose its pow’r,
                      Till all the ransomed Church of God
                      Be saved, to sin no more:
                      Be saved, to sin no more,
                      Be saved, to sin no more;
                      Till all the ransomed Church of God
                      Be saved to sin no more.

                      4 E’er since by faith I saw the stream
                      Thy flowing wounds supply,
                      Redeeming love has been my theme,
                      And shall be till I die:
                      And shall be till I die,
                      And shall be till I die;
                      Redeeming love has been my theme,
                      And shall be till I die.

                      5 When this poor lisping, stamm’ring tongue
                      Lies silent in the grave,
                      Then in a nobler, sweeter song
                      I’ll sing Thy pow’r to save:
                      I’ll sing Thy pow’r to save,
                      I’ll sing Thy pow’r to save;
                      then in a nobler, sweeter song
                      I’ll sing Thy pow’r to save.

                      William Cowper, 1771

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2015 at 4:13 am

                      Mary, what a pity 18th, 19th, & 20th century songs I chose you can’t sing because you haven’t read John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress where Pilgrim sees his burden roll off his back at Mount Calvary’s Cross never to return, because you haven’t looked with saving faith. Please know it is real, oh yes, it is real to have the burden of sin’s guilt gone forever. That’s another song, dear Mary: Look and Live based on John 3: 14; the serpant on the pole in the wilderness.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 15, 2015 at 12:21 am

                      Mary, here’s another hymn dated 1902 by S. J. Henderson that you can’t sing, because sins and guilt are bound together in forgiveness: My sins are all pardoned, my guilt is all gone! There’s excitement in knowing I’m no longer guilty.

                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      Now ransomed from sin and a new work begun,
                      Sing praise to the Father and praise to the Son,
                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!

                      Refrain
                      Glory, I’m saved! Glory, I’m saved!
                      My sins are all pardoned, my guilt is all gone!
                      Glory, I’m saved! Glory, I’m saved!
                      I am saved by the blood of the Crucified One!

                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      The angels rejoicing because it is done;
                      A child of the Father, joint heir with the Son,
                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      Refrain

                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      The Father He spake, and His will it was done;
                      Great price of my pardon, His own precious Son;
                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      Refrain

                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      All hail to the Father, all hail to the Son,
                      All hail to the Spirit, the great Three in One!
                      Saved by the blood of the Crucified One!
                      Refrain

                      Mary, I really pity your “faith”. I wish for you, my friend, this happiness that I’ve found.
                      (Another song; maybe you’ve heard it a long long time ago)

                      It only takes a spark
                      To get a fire going
                      And soon all those around
                      Can warm up in the glowing
                      That’s how it is with God’s love
                      Once you’ve experienced it
                      You’ll spread His love
                      To everyone
                      You’ll want to pass it on

                      What a wondrous time is spring
                      When all the trees are budding
                      The birds begin to sing
                      The flowers start their blooming
                      That’s how it is with God’s love
                      Once you’ve experienced it
                      You’ll want to sing
                      It’s fresh like spring
                      You’ll want to pass it on

                      I wish for you my friend
                      This happiness that I’ve found
                      You can depend on Him
                      It matters not where you’re bound
                      I’ll shout it from the mountain top
                      I want the world to know
                      The Lord of Love
                      Has come to me
                      I want to pass it on

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 16, 2015 at 1:40 am

                      Mary is still in process, and has a long way to go before (she) reaches completion. (quoted from Mary Vanderplas October 7, 2015 at 5:04 am) In other words Mary has never been delivered: another word for “saved”. Her liberal Christianity has no salvation, no deliverance at the moment of believing it. She waits for it and works for it and expects it will turn out for her long after she’s dead. That’s really poor religion. Oh what immediate assurance she is missing by not embracing Fundamental Salvation. Mary, when you believe Jesus paid the debt, the guilt is gone, all gone. As long as you hold onto guilt, you haven’t actually believed Jesus paid it ALL and therefore you can’t be saved once for all of time and eternity. You poor soul !!!

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 16, 2015 at 1:51 am

                      Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

                      Such is the case with God’s mortal believers, but unfortunately not with Mary and not with Alice, either. What a pity.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 16, 2015 at 9:59 am

                      If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.

                  • Alice Spicer September 23, 2015 at 9:14 pm

                    Mary is a pleasant person.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 23, 2015 at 9:44 pm

                      To angry people other angry people are pleasant.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 24, 2015 at 5:10 am

                      To self-righteous, condemning people everyone who doesn’t agree with them is unpleasant.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 24, 2015 at 4:02 pm

                      Mary, you confessed to having “anger problems” and they make the people that have them unpleasant.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 25, 2015 at 5:28 am

                      I never confessed anything. That I wrote “anger issues,” using quotation marks around the words, means that I was echoing your insinuation about me, not expressing something true about myself, let alone confessing my sins.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord;
    He is trampling out the vintage where grapes of wrath are stored;
    He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword,
    His truth is marching on.

    I have seen Him in the watchfires of a hundred circling camps;
    They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps;
    I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps,
    His day is marching on.
    He has sounded forth the trumpet that shall never call retreat;
    He is sifting out the hearts of men before His Judgement Seat.
    Oh! Be swift, my soul, to answer Him, be jubilant, my feet!
    Our God is marching on.

    In the beauty of the lilies Christ was born across the sea,
    With a glory in his bosom that transfigures you and me;
    As he died to make men holy, let us die to make men free,
    While God is marching on.
    CHORUS

    Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah!
    Glory, glory, hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

    My country, ’tis of thee, Sweet land of liberty,

    Of thee I sing; Land where my fathers died,

    Land of the pilgrims’ pride, From ev’ry mountainside

    Let freedom ring!

    My native country, thee, Land of the noble free,

    Thy name I love; I love thy rocks and rills,

    Thy woods and templed hills. My heart with rapture thrills

    Like that above.

    Let music swell the breeze And ring from all the trees

    Sweet freedom’s song; Let mortal tongues awake;

    Let all that breathe partake; Let rocks their silence break,

    The sound prolong.

    Our fathers’ God, to thee, Author of liberty,

    To thee we sing; Long may our land be bright

    With freedom’s holy light. Protect us by thy might,

    Great God, our King!

    O beautiful for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain;
    for purple mountain majesties above the fruited plain!
    America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
    and crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea.
    O beautiful for heroes proved in liberating strife,
    who more than self their country loved, and mercy more than life!
    America! America! May God thy gold refine,
    till all success be nobleness, and every gain divine.
    O beautiful for patriot dream that sees beyond the years
    thine alabaster cities gleam,undimmed by human tears!
    America! America! God mend thine every flaw,
    confirm thy soul in self-control, thy liberty in law.

    O say, can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
    What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming?
    Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro’ the perilous fight,
    O’er the ramparts we watch’d, were so gallantly streaming?
    And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
    Gave proof thro’ the night that our flag was still there.
    O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

    On the shore dimly seen thro’ the mists of the deep,
    Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
    What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
    As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
    Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
    In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream:
    ‘Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

    And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
    That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
    A home and a country should leave us no more?
    Their blood has wash’d out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
    No refuge could save the hireling and slave
    From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

    O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
    Between their lov’d home and the war’s desolation;
    Blest with vict’ry and peace, may the heav’n-rescued land
    Praise the Pow’r that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
    Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
    And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
    And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
    O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

    Alice, would you dare deny the Christian God has been the true God of the U. S. of A.?

    His Bible is true and “being gay is punishable by death.” accordingly.

    America is without excuse pandering to homosexuals.

    • Alice Spicer September 12, 2015 at 7:06 pm

      I would say that the Christian God is the true God of the entire universe.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 8:44 pm

        Evasive. Why should I answer “Define true” in context when you won’t answer confined to the context of four patriotic songs? Read again September 12, 2015 at 4:16 am above ((you) can’t see it right before you). Enlightenment? That vacuum is huge which is eating at you!

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 12, 2015 at 10:15 pm

        Alice, since you say, “the Christian God is the true God of the entire universe” then “being gay is punishable by death” everywhere. Is that true or is the Scripture wrong? You admitted above (September 11, 2015 at 1:44 pm) what scriptures say is “being gay is punishable by death.”

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 19, 2015 at 1:12 am

    Kentucky clerk Kim Davis interfered with judge’s order, attorney says
    Published September 18, 2015
    Associated Press
    OWENSBORO, Ky. – The attorney for one of the deputy clerks in Kim Davis’ office says Davis disobeyed a federal judge’s order when she altered marriage license forms for same-sex couples.

    Deputy Clerk Brian Mason has been issuing marriage licenses in Rowan County over the objections of Davis, the elected county clerk who believes same-sex marriage is a sin. Davis spent five days in jail for refusing to obey a federal judge’s order that she issue the licenses. The judge released Davis from jail but warned her not to interfere as her deputies issue licenses. Davis removed her name and the name of the county from the forms.

    On Friday, Mason’s attorney, Richard Hughes, said the altered forms would not be valid and thus constitute an attempt to violate the judge’s order.

    Alice, an update: Davis removed her name and the name of the county from the forms. She wants to disassociate her ID from those licenses for conscience sake to be true to her faith in God’s perfect literal Holy Bible, the absolute true standard of living forced by God upon His creatures under pain of everlasting torment. Those disobedient children of Satan are pledged by God to burn forever without remedy. Too bad you don’t believe it, because that puts you under the same condemnation and sentence.

    She lives by Ephesians 5: 1 – 13 {Be not ye therefore partakers with them.}

    Notice now without her NAME AS COUNTY CLERK the forms are not valid when before without her signature they were valid. The standard CHANGED. That’s a blatant manipulation forcing her unwanted authority on those documents contrary to her conscience. The truth is coming out that the government is forcing a Christian’s association against her known conscience. That’s specific minority targeting rather than protection. If the form was valid without her signature, it should be valid without her name and county title. A judge will have to now determine what makes the document valid. If he wants to preserve the validity of those issued by the deputies, then he should rule that the removal of her name and county is permissible. If he wants to jail her, then he invalidates all those certificates issued by the deputies. Really, who cares if they are valid or not because nobody will make it an issue, so he practically is at liberty to rule against her, resulting in putting her back in jail.

    What do you think, Alice? Will she be targeted or protected by the federal judge?

    BTW I expect your response to Sep 18, 12:01 AM (Catch 22)

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 19, 2015 at 5:10 pm

      By Adam Beam
      The Associated Press
      © September 19, 2015

      Kim Davis is out of jail and on the job, but the saga surrounding the Kentucky county clerk who has refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples appears to be far from over.

      In a court filing Friday, the attorney for one of Davis’ employees said he believes Davis has again violated a federal court order by altering marriage license forms to remove her name and the name of the county. In a separate court filing on Friday, attorneys for the gay couples who sued Davis appear to agree and say they are “exploring legal options.”

      Story: Pat Robertson on Kim Davis: She’s not “exactly the champion” we want

      Davis spent five days in jail for refusing to obey a federal judge’s ruling that she issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples to comply with a U.S. Supreme Court decision that effectively legalized gay marriage nationwide. Davis, an Apostolic Christian, believes same-sex marriage is a sin and cited “God’s authority” in refusing to obey the ruling.

      U.S. District Judge David Bunning released Davis from jail on the condition that she not interfere with her employees as they issue marriage licenses. When she returned to work, Davis altered the marriage forms by removing her name, making deputy clerk Brian Mason initial the form instead of sign it, and then requiring the form to be notarized.

      “A notary has nothing to do with it,” Mason’s attorney, Richard Hughes, told The Associated Press on Friday after filing a status report with the judge. Hughes said it was “really bizarre” that Davis would alter the forms.

      “Unless she’s got a really good reason, and I’ll certainly be patient and wait to hear it, the only inference I personally can draw from it is she is trying to circumvent the court’s order,” he said.

      Mat Staver, Davis’ attorney and founder of the Liberty Counsel law firm, noted that Kentucky Gov. Steve Beshear said the altered forms were valid and would be recognized by the state. And he said the licenses Mason issued while Davis was in jail did not have Davis’ name on them, adding that Bunning said those licenses were valid.

      Story: Judge orders Kentucky clerk Kim Davis released from jail

      “So there is no new development,” Staver said.

      Bunning appointed attorneys for each of Davis’ deputy clerks and asked them to file status reports every two weeks. The reports are not due until Tuesday, but Hughes filed his on Friday saying Davis’ “changes were made in some attempt to circumvent the court’s orders and may have raised to the level of interference against the court’s orders.”

      “We’ll see what Judge Bunning is going to do with it,” Hughes said.

      Also Friday, the attorneys for the American Civil Liberties Union said in a court filing that the changes on the form require Mason to issue the licenses “in his capacity as a ‘notary public’ rather than a deputy clerk of the Rowan County Clerk’s Office,” changes that “do not comply” with the court’s order to not interfere with her employees who issue the licenses.

      “These alterations call into question the validity of the marriage licenses issued,” the attorneys wrote in a footnote to a motion asking the judge to certify the case as a class-action lawsuit. “Plaintiffs are exploring legal options to address these material alterations.”

      State law requires marriage licenses to be issued under the authority of the county clerk. Someone else, a minister or other officiant, then performs the ceremony and signs the license. The clerk then files the license with county records.

      Davis has said that any license issued — with or without her name — is not valid unless she authorizes it. However, when she was released from jail she changed the marriage license forms to say they were being issued under the authority of the federal court. Davis’ attorney said this new form, if OK with the judge, would solve the problem because gay couples would have a marriage license and Davis would have a clear conscience.

      Kentucky’s Democratic governor and attorney general have both said the licenses are valid and will be recognized by the state.

      Mason is the only employee in Davis’ office who has said he does not object to issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Hughes said he agreed with his fellow deputy clerks to issue the licenses to “ease the stress of the situation.” But Hughes noted the other clerks would issue the licenses if Mason were absent.

      Mason has calmly and cheerfully issued marriage licenses in Rowan County, often amid a scrum of TV cameras and recorders documenting his every move. He has declined interview requests, and it is not clear what relationship he has with Davis. During her federal testimony, Davis described Mason as a “very loyal, very dedicated, very good employee.”

      “(Mason) says he has a good relationship with her,” Hughes said. “It’s been hard on all of them.”

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 19, 2015 at 6:00 pm

        Richard Hughes is hostile toward Kim Davis and wants to make an example of her to subjugate all Christian objections. Why else did he file on Friday instead of this coming Tuesday, taking advantage of the ACLU Friday filing? Vengeance is in the works trying to make validity a contest that supposedly did not seem to exist. Do you see the ACLU’s contention: State law requires marriage licenses to be issued under the authority of the county clerk. They want Kim Davis’ authority on them; no matter what. The object of this game is to invalidate Christian testimony by making Christians act contrary to what is true, thus making Christianity an unlivable fable.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 28, 2015 at 10:32 am

    What Is Wrong with Gay Marriage?
    Stanley Kurtz examines the social dangers of sanctioning gay marriage.
    “A clear majority of the American public opposes same-sex marriage,” says Stanley Kurtz of the Hudson Institute. “And yet this opposition, though real, is by-and-large silent. So striking is this general silence, that one cannot help but wonder about the reasons for it.”
    Three respected and moderately liberal Protestant theologians were recently asked to explain their views to a T.V. audience on the question of gay marriage, Kurtz notes. All were opposed to gay marriage, but they declined to appear because they feared being publicy labelled as “homophobic.”
    Kurtz explains that the great French admirer of American democracy, Alexis deTocqueville, warned that in a democracy, social ostracism can be all too easily used against those with minority viewpoints. But what is curious about the current situation, Kurtz notes, is that social ostracism is now being used effectively against the majority viewpoint.
    He notes the powerful “censoring role” of the mainstream media, and the fact that a small group of deeply committed partisans can sometimes succeed in imposing certain costs on their ideological adversaries.
    “But one also senses,” he says, “that the silencing of the majority would never have been possible were the majority itself more certain of its ground.”
    Misunderstanding the democratic ideal of equality
    Because we as Americans favor tolerance and equality–and consider them obligations of our democracy–we have become confused when required to justify the very traditions, such as marriage, upon which “democracy itself depends,” because those traditions seem to conflict with the democratic ideal of civil rights and non-discrimination.
    Kurtz cites writer Andrew Sullivan–not a radical, but a self-described gay conservative–who agrees that marriage is an institution worth preserving, and one which will encourage relational stability and economic security among gays, just as it has among heterosexuals. In fact, Sullivan predicted, gays might prove to be even more committed marriage partners than are heterosexuals. (But in a later New Republic editorial, Sullivan admitted that many gay men have no interest in marriage if it carries the expectation of fidelity.)
    How then, Kurtz wonders, would gay marriage actually play out? He notes that in reality, the gay community has long “put a premium on sexual promiscuity” and on rebellion against society. Radical gays have long argued that homosexuality is by its very nature incompatible with the norms of a a monagamous marriage. Would marriage truly prove to be transformative? William Bennett argued in a Newsweek editorial that the transformation would likely not take place in the habits of the gay community, but in the heterosexual community: same-sex marriage would fatally undermine an already weakened institution by breaking the bond between marriage and the principle of monagamy. Besides, Bennett argued, once gay marriage became the norm, there would be no principled argument remaining by which society could resist polygamy.
    Marriage exists as an institution, Kurtz explains, not because it is a “universal right of all,” but because “certain communities have decided that this particular form of personal alliance between a man and a woman both needs and deserves social encouragement.”
    If marriage was really a universal legal right of all who sought it, then it would have to be redesigned in the form of a contract by which any group of parties could form whatever sort of alliance they chose.
    What is marriage for?
    “What we are thrown back on,” Kurtz says, “are the fundamental questions of what marriage is, and what it is for.” Even more important, he says, the continuity of the two-person marital bond is “all that stands between our children and chaos.”
    Kurtz believes that marriage is naturally anchored by the complementarity of the sexes, although “even to mention it [complementarity] these days is to invite ridicule.” He notes that male-female physical and emotional complementarity is biologically-based and thus “not about to disappear.” Women help to domesticate men.
    Another anchoring factor is the man’s sense that his home is his “castle” and he its “king,” despite the reality that “a rough sort of equality” has always lain hidden in the reality of a husband-wife relationship. “What the Promise Keepers has the audacity to say out loud about a man’s authority within the marriage bond remains,” Kurtz says, “in subtler form, the formula of heterosexual marital success.”
    Same-sex marriage has enormous subversive potential, Kurtz notes. Gay activists are already arguing for an experimentation with “novel family configurations” involving sperm donation, open marriage, group marriage, and polygamous marriage. Websites have been set up to support “polyamorists”–women who live with more than one husband.
    In short, he explains, gay activists are asking us to “transform, at unknown cost to ourselves and to future generations, the central institution of our society.” Gay marriage ought to be resisted “firmly, politely and above all, unashamedly.”
    “If there ever was a place to draw the line,” Kurtz insists, “this is it.”
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    Copyright /Reproduction Limitations
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    This data file/document is the sole property of NARTH. It may not be altered or edited in any way. It may be reproduced only in its entirety for circulation as “freeware,” without charge. All reproductions of this data file and/or document must contain the copyright notice (i.e., Copyright (C) 1995-1997 NARTH) and this Copyright/Reproduction Limitations notice.
    This article can be found on the NARTH website.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    Mary, even John Wesley in his hymn, And Can It Be, cites imputed righteousness (And clothed in righteousness divine) at the last stanza. In the forth stanza he graphically describes his conversion experience as an immediate unshackling from sin and guilt (nature’s night) caused by seeing the light of the Gospel (quickening ray) being correct Bible doctrine: double imputation. Please, Mary, know Jesus will take away your sins and guilt and give you His righteousness if only you’d have Abraham’s faith, Romans 4, which I told you to underline all the references to righteousness by faith without works.

    And can it be that I should gain
    An interest in the Savior’s blood?
    Died He for me, who caused His pain—
    For me, who Him to death pursued?
    Amazing love! How can it be,
    That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?
    Amazing love! How can it be,
    That Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?

    ’Tis mystery all: th’Immortal dies:
    Who can explore His strange design?
    In vain the firstborn seraph tries
    To sound the depths of love divine.
    ’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore,
    Let angel minds inquire no more.
    ’Tis mercy all! Let earth adore;
    Let angel minds inquire no more.

    He left His Father’s throne above
    So free, so infinite His grace—
    Emptied Himself of all but love,
    And bled for Adam’s helpless race:
    ’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
    For O my God, it found out me!
    ’Tis mercy all, immense and free,
    For O my God, it found out me!

    Long my imprisoned spirit lay,
    Fast bound in sin and nature’s night;
    Thine eye diffused a quickening ray—
    I woke, the dungeon flamed with light;
    My chains fell off, my heart was free,
    I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.
    My chains fell off, my heart was free,
    I rose, went forth, and followed Thee.

    Still the small inward voice I hear,
    That whispers all my sins forgiven;
    Still the atoning blood is near,
    That quenched the wrath of hostile Heaven.
    I feel the life His wounds impart;
    I feel the Savior in my heart.
    I feel the life His wounds impart;
    I feel the Savior in my heart.

    No condemnation now I dread;
    Jesus, and all in Him, is mine;
    Alive in Him, my living Head,
    And clothed in righteousness divine,
    Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
    And claim the crown, through Christ my own.
    Bold I approach th’eternal throne,
    And claim the crown, through Christ my own.

    • Lanny A. Eichert October 10, 2015 at 3:14 pm

      Oh, Mary, that’s Charles, not John Wesley.

      What think you of John 14: 22?

      Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

      Can’t you see “us” and “them”? The world is not the receivers of Jesus’ revelation, therefore they are the “them”, or the “many” that go to destruction of Matthew 7: 13 & 14 as God planned for “them” and Jesus told you that would be the case. You’d do wise to believe it, Mary, because Jesus said it.

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2015 at 5:59 am

    Mary, here’s another hymn of the 19th century containing imputed righteousness as God’s believers’ foundation of acceptance by God which you can’t sing, can you?

    “My Hope is Built on Nothing Less”
    by Edward Mote, 1797-1874

    1. My hope is built on nothing less
    Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
    I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
    But wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
    On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
    All other ground is sinking sand.

    2. When darkness veils His lovely face,
    I rest on His unchanging grace;
    In every high and stormy gale
    My anchor holds within the veil.
    On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
    All other ground is sinking sand.

    3. His oath, His covenant, and blood
    Support me in the whelming flood;
    When every earthly prop gives way,
    He then is all my Hope and Stay.
    On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
    All other ground is sinking sand.

    4. When He shall come with trumpet sound,
    Oh, may I then in Him be found,
    Clothed in His righteousness alone,
    Faultless to stand before the throne!
    On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
    All other ground is sinking sand.

    Hymn #370
    The Lutheran Hymnal
    Text: 1 Timothy 1:1
    Author: Edward Mote, c. 1834, cento
    Composer: John Stainer, 1873, arr.
    Tune: “Magdalen”

    Mary, I am “Clothed in His righteousness alone” and I am therefore “Faultless to stand before the throne!” Don’t you see that progressive sanctification ALONE is quicksand without the earth life righteousness of Jesus Christ first eternally imputed to me at the very first moment I stopped believing the wrong stuff and started believing the right stuff. So it is with all of God’s believers. Please become one of “us” and stop being one of “them.” The Holy Bible is 100% trustworthy, so believe it with us.

    • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2015 at 6:38 am

      Mary, my hope is not in “my” righteousness, but it is in Jesus’ righteousness imputed to my account simply because I believe double imputation is Biblical truth, in other words, what God promised to His believers. Don’t you believe “our” righteousnesses are as filthy rags {Isaiah 64: 6}? There is no hope in “our” righteousness. Our only hope can only be God calling His believers righteous as a pure gift of His grace: God giving us the gift of righteousness: of having never sinned. To do that, God “must” forget our sins in giving us forgiveness, don’t you see that? Forgiveness is a gift because God’s justice was satisfied by the gift of God’s Son on the Cross bearing our guilt and suffering its penalty, thus removing our guilt as well as our sins. God requires our acknowledgement (belief, faith, trust) in order to apply it to our individual cases. John 8: 24
      I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
      Mary, your faith needs an unchangeable foundation and God provided that in His perfect literal Holy Bible’s spelt Hebrew and Greek words. Please stop believing men’s theoretical wisdom about the Bible, and start believing every spelt word of it. It, the Bible, is the only sure foundation in the world, because unlike men’s wisdom, the Bible’s words don’t change generation to generation. Salvation is available to you if you will only believe the right stuff. Do it today.

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2015 at 11:00 pm

        Mary, what does John 8: 24 mean regarding the will of God?
        I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
        Is it the will of God that people die in their sins? Does God want people dying in their sins? Comparatively speaking, do more people in the world die in their sins than don’t? What does that say about God getting His will?

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