Mr. Fielding’s Real Problem

Mr. Fielding’s Real Problem

The following exercise is from the synchroblog at http://frankviola.org/2012/07/09/gospelforthemiddle

Fielding Melish and his wife Felicia have two children, ages 10 and 6. They live in a very remote part of Maine, USA. They are surrounded by extended family, none of whom are Christians. The nearest churches are one hour away, and by all evangelical standards, none of them are good. These churches are either highly legalistic, highly libertine, or just flat-out flaky.

One of Fielding’s cousins is a practicing Christian. They see each other once a year. Fielding’s cousin has shared Christ with Fielding many times over the years. Whenever they’ve talked about spiritual things, Fielding shows interest.

Felicia grew up in a Christian home. She’s received Christ, but she isn’t evangelistic and is overwhelmed with working long hours and raising two small children. She would love to find a church nearby for the spiritual support and instruction, but none exist.

Fielding has no college education. While he is capable of reading, he is not a reader. He doesn’t use the Web either. He’s a man who works with his hands, both for his career and for recreation. He’s an “outdoorsman.” He hunts, he builds, he does manual labor, etc. In his spare time, he helps his elderly parents with various building projects.

Fielding is not an atheist. Neither is he an agnostic. He believes in God. He believes Jesus is the Savior of the world who died for our sins and rose again from the dead. He hasn’t fully surrendered his life to Christ, but he is not sure what that looks like exactly. His children know a little about the Lord, mostly because of what their mother has taught them.

Recently Fielding asked this question:

When I’m with my cousin once a year, I want to learn more about God. But when I come back home, and I’m around everyone else, my mind is off of God, and I am back to working, raising my kids, and helping my parents. Someone needs to come up with a solution for people like me . . . people who are in the middle. (By “in the middle,” Fielding means someone who believes in Jesus, but who isn’t fully absorbed in the faith yet either. They simply don’t know enough nor do they have any spiritual support system around them.)

Relocating is not an option for Fielding and his wife. Even if they wanted to relocate, they don’t see a way they could do it financially.

Remember: Fielding and his wife don’t personally know any Christians. None of their extended family or coworkers are believers either. And the nearest churches (which are an hour away) aren’t recommended.

Question: If you were Fielding’s cousin, how would you instruct him and his wife the next time you saw them?

The first thing a hearer must do in attempting to answer a question is to understand the question.  How would I instruct Fielding and his wife if I were Fielding’s cousin?  I’m assuming that the goal of  this question is to find and communicate a solution to Fielding’s problem.  But what, exactly, is Fielding’s problem?  Fielding says, “Someone needs to come up with a solution for people like me . . . people who are in the middle.”  The narrator (Frank Viola?  Fielding’s unnamed cousin?) has given us further clarification by defining “in the middle” for us: “someone who believes in Jesus, but who isn’t fully absorbed in the faith yet either. They simply don’t know enough nor do they have any spiritual support system around them.”  Because this is Fielding’s problem, not the narrator’s problem, I prefer to rely only on Fielding’s words to define the problem.  So, what does Fielding want?

Fielding says, “Someone needs to come up with a solution for people like me . . . people who are in the middle.”  When Fielding says, “solution”, readers can assume there is a problem.  As I set aside the narrator’s words and review Fielding’s words only, I can identify the real problem.

Fielding notices that his interest in God depends on others (his cousin, a “good” local church, etc).  Fielding assumes that the solution to his problem is to surround himself with people who are interested in God.  But his circumstances are such that this seems to be an impossibility.  So, he places the responsibility squarely on the shoulders of an unnamed, faceless “someone” who needs to come up with a solution.

Notice that Fielding deflects all responsibility toward others.  His interest in God depends on others.  His solution depends on others.  His inability to implement that solution depends on others.

How do “others” respond?  The narrator suggests (by naming all the circumstances and reasons why there’s nothing that Fielding can do about his problem and asking for a solution) that Fielding is justified in placing the responsibility for his lack of interest in God on others, and it really is up to others to fix his problem.  Can others fix his problem?  Should others even try to fix this problem?  If they found a way to surround Fielding with believers, would that mean Fielding’s problem is fixed?

Again, what does Fielding really want?  I believe he wants to “want to” know God.  He wants God to give him a desire to know God that is persistent, despite his circumstances.  This is a very basic spiritual need.  Fielding, in recognizing that Jesus is the Savior of the world, was in-dwelt by the Spirit of God.  That’s why he’s keenly aware of his own lack of interest in knowing God.  The Spirit of God is beginning His work at the very center of Fielding’s heart.  Once this problem is resolved, once Fielding consistently “wants to” know God, then God will make Himself known to Fielding.

Jesus said, “Ask, and it shall be given to you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened to you; for every one who is asking doth receive, and he who is seeking doth find, and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.” (Matthew 7:7-9)

Fielding is doing two things that are preventing him from getting what he wants.  First, he is asking the wrong question.  Second, his question is aimed in the wrong direction.  His question ought to be directed inward, to the Spirit of God in him.  Fielding’s question ought to be, “Why am I only interested in God when I’m around my Christian cousin?”  He should recognize that the only reason he even thinks to ask this question to begin with is that the Spirit of God is at work in him.  This, in itself, would be reassurance for Fielding that despite his circumstances, God is right there with him, doing what God does best – changing Fielding from the inside out, not from the outside in.

Jesus also said, “If any one may love me, my word he will keep, and my Father will love him, and unto him we will come, and abode with him we will make; he who is not loving me, my words doth not keep; and the word that ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me.  These things I have spoken to you, remaining with you, and the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and remind you of all things that I said to you. Peace I leave to you; my peace I give to you, not according as the world doth give do I give to you” (John 14:23-27)

I wonder, do Christians really believe that the Spirit of God will teach us everything we need to know about God?  I don’t think that Christians trust God in this.  Why?  Because the Spirit of God teaches us in His own time and in His own way.  We want it all, and we want it now.  We want Fielding to become a shining example of the transforming work of Christ.  We want him to demonstrate this by being “evangelistic” and “fully absorbed in the faith” and “fully surrendered” to Christ in everything he does, which, of course, includes meeting regularly with other like-minded believers.  No excuses, Fielding!  But what if the Spirit of God, for the moment, just wants Fielding to recognize the current state of his heart?  What if the Spirit of God, being patient and kind and loving, is only concerned about teaching Fielding to be honest with himself and with God?  What if the Spirit of God is teaching Fielding how to pray – “God, what’s keeping me from being interested in you?  Why is it that I want to know more about you only when I’m around my cousin?  Will you give me a real, lasting desire to know you?  Will you teach me what it is about myself that keeps me from wanting to know you more?”

If God answers that prayer, then Fielding will find a way to learn about God.  The desire to learn will be there, and in seeking to fill that desire, Fielding will begin an ongoing conversation with God as teacher who uses everything in Fielding’s life as a lesson on Who He is and what He does.  Perhaps God will bring people into Fielding’s life to help him along, but Fielding’s desire for God will not go unanswered, if it is a genuine desire.  Right now, it’s not a genuine desire.  And it seems to me that the Spirit of God is doing a fine job (without our help) of making Fielding aware of his real problem.  If believer’s don’t jump in and “fix” Fielding’s problem, then maybe Fielding will realize he’s been asking the wrong question and looking to people for answers that only God can give.  This is God’s work, not Fielding’s and not ours.

 

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert July 12, 2012 at 1:24 pm

    Fielding, in recognizing that Jesus is the Savior of the world, was in-dwelt by the Spirit of God. NOT SO, Alice, and you quoted John 14:23-27 which disproves it and Matthew 7:7-9 is not working for him because of James 4: 3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts {His excuse for his unbelief, just like yours}.

    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? {James 2: 19 & 20}

    Simply put, Christ is not his LORD.

  • Stephen Helbig July 12, 2012 at 6:22 pm

    This topic reminds me of Judges 8:22 ~ “Then the men of Israel said unto Gideon, Rule thou over us, both thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son also: for thou hast delivered us from the hand of Midian. (23) And Gideon said unto them, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: THE LORD SHALL RULE OVER YOU…
    … At the end of Gideon’s “deliverance career” the Israelites wanted to make him their king. Gideon refused, and said that instead of becoming their king he would like them to each bring him a “gold ear ring” from the plunder. Everyone brought a portion of gold and Gideon melted it down and made a “golden Ephod”. The Ephod was the vest that the priests put on when they entered the holy of holies. In the pocket of the Ephod were the lots, which were used when they “caste lots” in order to determine God’s will in a certain situation. When the priest entered the temple wearing the golden Ephod, he could actually “HEAR”~ (~”golden ear ring”) the voice of God audibly. You might remember one time when King David told the priests to “bring him the golden Ephod”. David put it on and went into the temple to ask God whether or not he should attack the Amalekites. David heard the audible voice of God tell him to attack.
    The story of Gideon goes on to say that after the golden Ephod was made, “all of Israel prostituted themselves by worshiping the Ephod”. (Verse 27) ~ “And Gideon made an ephod thereof, and put it in his city, even in Ophrah: and all Israel went thither a whoring after it: which thing became a snare unto Gideon, and to his house”). Think of this for a moment. They actually worshiped the way in which to determine God’s will over worshiping God Himself. The story later goes on to say that it became a snare to Gideon and his family.
    So what does this have Fielding’s problem? One of the things we are taught in todays Christianity is that the Bible is the way in which to determine the will of God. Just as the Israelites prostituted themselves after the golden Ephod, I believe that modern day Christianity is doing the exact same thing with the Bible. We have prostituted ourselves after the Bible and there is no doubt in my mind that it has become a thorn and a snare to almost every want~to~be Christian in America. In fact I think many Christians have actually traded God for the Bible. Many others have even come to the point where they think God IS the Bible. I truly believe that the Bible has become the golden Ephod of our time.
    The question is how does one seek God, for anything ?
    (Little Side note).~ Church going doesnt make one a christian nor does studying the bible, and it’s so very odd to me that we actually call the Bible “The Word of God”. The Bible doesn’t make that claim about itself. In the book of John it says: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”, but then it goes on to say, “The Word became flesh”. The Bible outright tells us that JESUS is the Word. Not the Bible. When we teach people that the Bible is “The Word” we are flat out exchanging Christ for the Bible. The expectations become ~ this way, and that way, or our way of doing “it”, LOL.
    God covers all the bases, and he will and does always make a way of escape unto Him ~ “for each and every one of us”, because JESUS IS THE WAY. People need to know that a precious SEED resides within each and every one and that seed is Christ.~ “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (Jn. 1:9). Christ in You the hope of glory” “He writes it in our hearts”

    p.s. ~ I agree that this process is God’s work and it is marvelous in our eyes. ” THIS IS GOD”S WORK, not Fielding’s and not ours.”

    p.s.s. ~ Disclaimer, I would like to plainly state that I firmly believe that the Bible is inspired by the Spirit of God. I don’t question it’s authenticity for one moment. I have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation many times, and in several translations. I’ve spent thousands of hours , studying it on my own time. I’ve read commentaries on almost every book of the Bible and have personally taught on every single book in the Old Testament and New Testament. I’ve studied Greek words and I’ve studied the Hebrew words. For 30 plus years of my life I spend several hours a day doing nothing but reading and studying this wonderful book. I say all that to say this: I respect the Bible and I hold it close to my heart. There is no other book in the world like it for me. The content in the Bible is absolutely life changing. But that is what works in my life, my flavor.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 13, 2012 at 5:16 pm

      Stephen, this your post is exactly my complaint against Alice: your disclaimer is invalidated by all you wrote before it and you don’t even know it. Just like Alice, you cannot see your doubletalk.

      I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. {Psalm 138: 2}

      So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. {Romans 10: 17} This contextual word is not speaking of the living Christ but of the proclaimed word of preachers {see verse 14}.

      Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. {1 Peter 1: 23 & 25} But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

      The bottom line is you, like Mary and Alice, minimize the Holy Bible if not even down right deny it by your mechanics with it.

  • Mary Vanderplas July 13, 2012 at 6:39 am

    I agree with what you say about Fielding relying too much on other people for his faith and spiritual growth, though I don’t think that he’s necessarily wrong to want to be around people who will help him stay focused on God. The work of the Spirit in our lives is nourished and grows in community with other Christians. And for many of us, the spiritual support of fellow Christians is essential in keeping us on track and moving forward. Where Fielding has gone wrong, in my view, is not in his seeking the company of other believers to encourage him spiritually, but in his expecting others to come up with a “quick fix” to his problem of spiritual apathy or stagnation.

    I like what you say about Fielding “wanting to want” to know God, i.e., having an earnest desire to be a person who consistently seeks God, instead of being someone who is hot or warm one minute and cold the next. I don’t know that I agree, though, that his wanting to want is the condition of God making himself known to him. God can and does act to reveal himself even when people are not actively seeking him or when they are turned away from him. I agree that the fact that Fielding is aware of (and frustrated by) his own lack of commitment or his own inconsistency is evidence that God’s Spirit is indeed present and at work in his life enabling him to see his need and drawing him to God.

    I don’t know that I agree entirely with your proposed antidote to Fielding’s problem. While I think you’re right to assert that the Spirit of God is at work in his life helping him to see his need and drawing him into a deeper relationship and commitment, i.e., enabling and empowering him to become a different person, I don’t think that focusing inward on the Holy Spirit in me and being preoccupied with the “current state of [my] heart” is the way to develop spiritually. I think that focusing outside of ourselves on who God is and what he does not just in but beyond us, and particularly on the person of Jesus Christ, who shows us what it is to be a mature, fully human person, is the appropriate approach to seeking spiritual renewal. I like what you say about trusting God with our progress spiritually and about not expecting ourselves or others to become whole, mature human beings overnight. I also like what you imply about God, not us, setting the standard of what it means to be mature persons, liberated for God and others. And I agree with your point about God answering Fielding’s (and our) desire for him.

    Thank you for the reminder that the God who acted in Christ to save us doesn’t leave us as we are and that he can be counted on to accomplish his renewing work in our hearts and lives.

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 13, 2012 at 5:30 pm

      Mary, Fielding is only spinning on “religion” and not Christ because he is not even reading and studying his Bible. He doesn’t {is not even able to} seek God on his own. He is only kidding himself.

      • Mary Vanderplas July 14, 2012 at 7:00 am

        The fact that he’s spiritually lazy or unmotivated and that he doesn’t take responsibility for his spiritual life doesn’t mean that he isn’t seeking God or that he can’t seek God. If the Spirit of God weren’t at work in his life, he wouldn’t have a desire to learn about God nor would he express dissatisfaction with his being a person who is “in the middle.” It seems clear to me that the Spirit is at work in his heart enabling him to see his need and drawing him to God, to Jesus. The fact that he is not yet fully committed or that he isn’t reading and studying the Bible doesn’t mean that the Spirit isn’t working in his life. I agree with Alice: the Spirit of God, who is endlessly patient with all of us, is working in this person’s life to remove the blinders and enable him to become a person who seeks God with his whole heart.

        • admin July 14, 2012 at 10:17 am

          Exactly. No one seeks God out of their own desire, because our own desire is to run and hide from God because He is holy and we are not. The Spirit of God works in each of us to awaken us to the idea that God is not our enemy. If we were to say this person is a Christian and this person is not a Christian based on behavior alone, then none of us are Christians. “fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love” This guy isn’t living in fear. His desire is to move toward God not away from God. I think that the “Lordship” doctrine has some merit, but overall, it does more harm than damage, because it puts the “little ones” the people who are new in the faith, back into a state of fear. It undoes what God did.

          • Mary Vanderplas July 15, 2012 at 7:08 am

            I think you’re right that the fact that he does not live in fear but desires to move toward God, to put his trust completely in this One who loves him beyond telling, is clear evidence that the Spirit of God is at work in his heart. The fact that he doesn’t trust God completely yet, that he hasn’t fully committed himself to Christ, doesn’t mean that he isn’t a Christian. Yes; if being fully committed at all times were the criterion for being a Christian, who of us would be able to wear the name? Not I, that’s for sure. What you said in your blog about the Spirit being “patient and kind and loving” and taking us where we are in enabling us to know and trust God’s love for us is right on. And I agree: while faith comes with obedience to Christ, the idea of submitting to Christ’s Lordship can be wrongly made into a condition of being loved and accepted by God. It can work against coming to trust in God’s love for us just as we are.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2012 at 5:22 pm

          Running and hiding from God, dear Alice and Mary, also takes the form of false religious ideas that deny God’s truth. Such false ideas so irrationally and tightly held attempt to foolishly hid a soul from God and insulate him from doctrinal unpleasantries he chooses not to face. This is the very objective of liberal christianity. You see, I know where you are. I’ll tell you that Fundamental Christianity has the truth you don’t want to hear.

  • Michelle July 17, 2012 at 12:50 am

    “So what does this have Fielding’s problem? One of the things we are taught in todays Christianity is that the Bible is the way in which to determine the will of God. Just as the Israelites prostituted themselves after the golden Ephod, I believe that modern day Christianity is doing the exact same thing with the Bible. We have prostituted ourselves after the Bible and there is no doubt in my mind that it has become a thorn and a snare to almost every want~to~be Christian in America. In fact I think many Christians have actually traded God for the Bible. Many others have even come to the point where they think God IS the Bible. I truly believe that the Bible has become the golden Ephod of our time.
    The question is how does one seek God, for anything ?
    (Little Side note).~ Church going doesnt make one a christian nor does studying the bible, and it’s so very odd to me that we actually call the Bible “The Word of God”. The Bible doesn’t make that claim about itself. In the book of John it says: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”, but then it goes on to say, “The Word became flesh”. The Bible outright tells us that JESUS is the Word. Not the Bible. When we teach people that the Bible is “The Word” we are flat out exchanging Christ for the Bible. The expectations become ~ this way, and that way, or our way of doing “it”, LOL.”

    Some people are waking up to the truth…

  • Michelle July 17, 2012 at 1:13 am

    “I think that the “Lordship” doctrine has some merit, but overall, it does more harm than damage, because it puts the “little ones” the people who are new in the faith, back into a state of fear. It undoes what God did.”

    “And I agree: while faith comes with obedience to Christ, the idea of submitting to Christ’s Lordship can be wrongly made into a condition of being loved and accepted by God. It can work against coming to trust in God’s love for us just as we are.”

    Yes, I agree as well. And He prefers “Papa” over “Lord”…

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 17, 2012 at 8:52 pm

    Michelle, who said, He prefers “Papa” over “Lord”…

    Only Michelle, whose faith comes with obedience to Christ without reading the literal perfect Holy Bible to find out what that obedience means, right?

    • Michelle July 22, 2012 at 7:05 pm

      “Michelle, who said, He prefers “Papa” over “Lord”…

      Only Michelle, whose faith comes with obedience to Christ without reading the literal perfect Holy Bible to find out what that obedience means, right?”

      There is no such thing as a literal perfect Bible. The belief that the Bible is “the word of God” came about very recently. Jesus is the Living, Incorruptible Word of God, not some book.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbS5Aw4aSss

      And watch this if you dare. THAT is THE TRUTH:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1zXb8XNsLw

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 23, 2012 at 9:19 pm

        Michelle, the belief that the Bible is “the word of God” is as old as the literal perfect Holy Bible from which it comes; see “not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God” and notice it “liveth and abideth for ever” so that it cannot be corrupted. Alice and Mary need also to see this.

        Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. {1 Peter 1: 23}

        Liberal christianity has taught the many much too perfectly to deny the literal perfect Holy Bible in order to prevent the many from coming to the perfect Son of God for perfect salvation, which is only had through the literal perfect Holy Bible because of the fear of eternal torment by the few who will not be deceived.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 23, 2012 at 9:34 pm

          Alice, you cannot have perfect salvation from sin’s penalty without a literal perfect Holy Bible as its sure foundation.

          You also cannot again have eternal salvation without an eternal punitve punishment, namely eternal fiery torment in the Lake of Fire. Think about it: if punishment is remedial, why is post mortal salvation from it desirable? Isn’t that defeating its remedial purpose? Haven’t you proposed a contradiction? In fact why even have salvation in this life at all, since it defeats your remedial action of the Lake of Fire any way?

          • admin July 24, 2012 at 2:21 am

            post-mortem salvation is salvation from death, otherwise the dead would not awaken, death would hold them captive

            the word “salvation” assumes that the one in need of it is threatened somehow

            eternal salvation is an oxymoron, because that would mean that believers have always been and always will be threatened

            for as long as death exists (to the age of the ages), Jesus rescues us from it (gives us age-abiding life, not eternal life)

            death is swallowed up in victory and we put on immortality (we can’t die any more, death is not a threat)

            only God and God’s attributes are eternal (self-existant, no beginning, no end)

            the age/ages are not eternal (only exist because God causes them to exist, had a beginning, have an end)

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 2:28 am

              So you don’t believe anything or any one is eternal, but God.

              What about everlasting? Having a beginning but no end? Can’t God do that? He is the AUTHOR of life, is He not?

              • admin July 24, 2012 at 10:06 am

                Everlasting differs from eternal in that it has a beginning but no end. Anything that is everlasting is only everlasting because God, Who is eternal (no beginning, no end, self-existant), sustains it.

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 2:46 am

              the word “salvation” assumes that the one in need of it is threatened somehow

              Yes, Alice, and that’s eternal damnation/torment. There’s the fear required to come to Christ.

              Death will ALWAYS exist in the Lake of Fire, dear Alice, because it cannot be annihilated. We once agreed that death cannot be annihilated, so have you changed your mind? Death exists as long as there is life. Swallowed up in victory does not mean annihilation.

              So does that mean your jesus is always saving us as long as there are ages? My Jesus saves only ONE time because He is thorough.

              So what happens when the ages end? What happens to people?

              • admin July 24, 2012 at 10:02 am

                You say death will always exist in the Lake of Fire, but you contradict Paul’s message and John’s – death is swallowed up in victory. Yes, swallowed up in victory is not the same as annihilation, it is different, but that doesn’t mean that death always exists. Listen to yourself. Your doctrine demands that death NOT be overwhelmed by Jesus Christ. And this doctrine is, in itself, a form of death, because it denies the power and glory of our Savior.

                What happens when the ages end? I have no way of answering that question, and either do you or any other human being. God hasn’t revealed that to us. But He has revealed that He is able to do more than we can ask or imagine. And He has promised that death and all that it brings, like sorrow and pain, WILL BE NO MORE. And He is giving us immortality, so no matter what strange new and wonderful reality He has for us beyond the ages, we continue to exist by His power, because we are in Him and He is in us – God, all in all.

                It is a beautiful and amazing thing to glimpse His “supreme intelligence” that is “forming the best plans and using the best means” to “manifest itself in a great variety of forms” (aka manifold wisdom). I look forward to the day when God deconstructs you, Lanny, because when He does, you will be a modern day version of the Apostle Paul.

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 12:15 pm

                  Listen to yourself, Alice. How can you have Death not existing without annihilating it? You make no sense just like your awaking {resurrection} of the dead without Christ’s blood. You don’t see your contradictions because you want your outcome more than truth. There is no awakening in the Lake of Fire. The resurrection of the dead of the Revelation 20 occurs BEFORE the Final Judgment where they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is one mass resurrection unto judgment as Jesus said and I quoted John 5: 29. You heresy fails the God given specific chronology you deny by not being willing to accept any chronology but an overly generalized one. Your chronology you derive because you know you have a problem with the course of events fitting your heresy.

                  Alice, when Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire with everybody else why doesn’t your Death cease to exist at that moment? You in your view must wait until your christ fills all in all, but nothing in the Revelation changes Death in the Lake of Fire. You manufactured that one because you import and export from the contexts {1 Corinthians 15 doesn’t handle the resurrection of the spiritually dead souls for whom there is never victory over death.}.

                  You also box yourself into the unknown by your own ages concept which is false and refuse to recognize everlasting as eternal. Both words are translated from the same Greek words/expressions. You are in denial on so many things because you are refusing God’s words on eternal torment purely on the emotional reasons of people you loved who died without confessing Christ and are gone to eternal hell fire and you refuse to accept that as fact.

                  The spiritually dead physically dead souls are resurrected unto eternal spiritual death. That’s why they along with Death and Hell are cast into the Lake of Fire as trash into God’s “trash bin”. That’s the reconciliation of God’s trash as He, the Potter, dashes with His rod of iron the vessels He fitted for destruction. Everything ends up in its designed place when God cleans up and makes a final end. You don’t like it, but tough, stop running by emotions and get faith to believe God’s words. The only place to do that is in the literal perfect Holy Bible where Jesus prophetically said Judas is unrepairably perished and the fire is eternal. You cannot be saved without believing Jesus’ words.

                  • admin July 24, 2012 at 8:20 pm

                    You are info-dumping, not engaging in discussion.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 9:09 pm

                      You, Alice, you have Death not existing without annihilating it and refuse to be informed and recognize the contradiction and answer it.

                      You, Alice, you have resurrection in the Lake of Fire when that resurrection happened BEFORE the Final Judgment and refuse to be informed and recognize the contradiction of chronology and answer it.

                      You, Alice, you have individual unbelievers resurrected in their individual time when they are mass resurrected and refuse to be informed and recognize the contradiction and answer it.

                      You, Alice, you have a death of death where there is none and refuse to be informed and recognize the contradiction and answer it.

                      You, Alice, you have everlasting and eternal from the same construction and refuse to be informed and recognize the equvalency and answer it.

                      Alice, The resurrection of the dead both small and great is a resurrection unto death and you refuse to be informed and recognize your contradiction and answer it.

                      I made my objections to your view, now it is your turn to recognize them and answer them. You’re just trying to cop out again.

                • Stephen Helbig July 24, 2012 at 12:20 pm

                  “A modern day Paul “, I like that and and can see it!

                  • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2012 at 2:41 am

                    Imagine all you want for I’ll never be a liberal like you. The Mormons out here have said the same thing you’ve said and their gospel is like yours. That’s how I know what you are. Satan’s counterfeits are all very much alike always doubting the integrity of the Holy Bible from Genesis 3: 4. Nevertheless exposing you is as easy as quoting the Holy Bible since it is the sure Word of God.

                    And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {Genesis 3: 4} Ye shall not surely be eternally tormented. You parrot his words very well.

                    Satan is one up on you because he knows it is not true, but that he’s deceived you thoroughly into believing it as truth. He wants to take you down to hell fire with his lie and that he will do as God permits if you are His vessel fitted for destruction.

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 3:06 am

              post-mortem salvation is salvation from death, otherwise the dead would not awaken, death would hold them captive

              Death does hold them captive, Alice, and that’s why they are called “the dead” in the Revelation 20 and that’s why they are thrown into the Lake of Fire WITH Death and Hell. The dead always have consciousness and don’t need to be awakened in that sense. Awakened is a figure for the resurrection of damnation {John 5: 29} in this case.

              Here again you make post-mortem salvation an awakening from physical death and spiritual death: in other words, resurrection saves and they don’t need Jesus’ blood. Can’t you see that?

              So your post-mortem salvation is only imaginative.

              • admin July 24, 2012 at 9:38 am

                I never said they don’t need Jesus. Of course they do.

              • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 5:12 pm

                And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. {Daniel 12: 1 – 3}

                Notice, Alice, everlasting life, and everlasting contempt. Anything that is everlasting is only everlasting because God sustains it, you said. So here is the Second Resurrection which is here clearly unto everlasting contempt that God sustains in His eternality as Jesus said in John 5: 28 & 29. Eternal Torment, which you falsely claim is not in the original Hebrew or Greek.

                Notice, Alice, thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book is a reference to ethnic national Israelites, Daniel’s people, no Gentiles. Notice also only those found written in the book is a reference to the Lamb’s Book of Life and the many are not in it because many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake … to shame and everlasting contempt. Therefore “all Israel” that shall be saved is NOT all Israel, dear girl. All Israel is only every one that is found written in the book. All is restricted to the Book. Alice, at that time thy people shall be delivered clearly are limited to ONLY those written in the Book. Also at that time emphasizes a chronological time requiring God’s believers to believe in God’s given chronology rather than escaping from it for a private interpretation of personal preference.

                All this occurs BEFORE the Final Judgment and God, in His Judgment, has everlasting contempt on those who awake to shame and everlasting contempt and throws them into the Lake of Fire where in His everlasting contempt God will never grant them repentance, otherwise everlasting contempt is not everlasting contempt and God is not God.

                • admin July 24, 2012 at 7:57 pm

                  “And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches – to abhorrence age-during.
                  And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever.”

                  The multitude awakes.
                  Of the multitude, some awake to an age of shame, others to an age of life.
                  The multitude is taught and justified.
                  There is a glory (shine like stars) for those who teach and justify, and although it is not explicitly stated, it is likely that they are the ones who awake to an age of life. This glory continues beyond the age – it continues forever, because they don’t die. Why don’t they die? Because God keeps His promises, not because they are “eternal”. If they were “eternal”, then they are self existent, and were not created, because they have always been.

                  Your translation is messed up, and that’s one reason why your theology is messed up. If olam = eternal, then the OT is full of nonsensical statements. If olam = eternal, then why does the English translation say “and for ever”? How many forevers are there, Lanny? If we interpret this as you say, then there are at least two forevers. That is nonsense.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 9:12 pm

                    Ever heard of idioms?

                    • Stephen Helbig July 24, 2012 at 11:42 pm

                      Lanny,There are estimated to be at least 25,000 idiomatic expressions in the English language.

                      What idiom are you referring to?

                      The following is as per ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiom

                      “In linguistics, idioms are usually presumed to be figures of speech contradicting the principle of compositionality. This principle states that the meaning of a whole should be constructed from the meanings of the parts that make up the whole. In other words, one should be in a position to understand the whole if one understands the meanings of each of the parts that makes up the whole. The following example is widely employed to illustrate the point:
                      Fred kicked the bucket.
                      Understood literally, the meaning is compositional; Fred is understood to have booted a specific bucket.”

                      Wikipedia continues ~
                      Literal translation (word-by-word) of opaque idioms will not convey the same meaning in other languages. Idioms from other languages that are analogous to kick the bucket in English are listed next:
                      Polish:kopnąć w kalendarz ‘to kick the calendar’,
                      Bulgarian: the closest analogous phrase is da ritnesh kambanata (да ритнеш камбаната ‘to kick the bell’)
                      Danish: at stille træskoene ‘to take off the clogs’,
                      Dutch: het loodje leggen ‘to lay the piece of lead’,
                      Finnish: potkaista tyhjää ‘to kick the void’,
                      French: manger des pissenlits par la racine ‘to eat dandelions by the root’,
                      German: den Löffel abgeben ‘to give the spoon away’ or ins Gras beißen ‘to bite into the grass’,
                      Greek: τινάζω τα πέταλα ‘to shake the horse-shoes’
                      Latvian: nolikt karoti ‘to put the spoon down'[5]
                      Norwegian: å parkere tøflene ‘to park the slippers’,
                      Portuguese: bater as botas ‘to beat the boots’,
                      Spanish: estirar la pata ‘to stretch one’s leg’,
                      Swedish: trilla av pinnen ‘to fall off the stick’,
                      Ukrainian: врізати дуба ‘to cut the oak, as in building a coffin’.

                      Note ~ Lanny, I ask because as you can see translation from one language to another would be difficult. and the original Hebrew and Greek idiomatic language translated to English, I would like to look at.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 11:18 pm

                    Alice, to abhorrence age-during means they utterly hate where they are and all that got them there including the Gospel in your terms as long as the ages last. When then can they be taught and justified when their abhorrance doesn’t cease for a moment during the ages?

                    You view has no opportunity for their salvation. Can’t you see that? Their salvation would only be possible AFTER their abhorrances end which doesn’t happen until the ages end.

                    You got nonsense.

                    • admin July 25, 2012 at 9:45 am

                      You write: “Their salvation would only be possible AFTER their abhorrances end which doesn’t happen until the ages end.” We know that at some point in time, Jesus brings everyone in subjection to himself. If a person hates God, is it fair to say that person has been brought into subjection? If those who exist in an age of abhorrence are made righteous, doesn’t that mean their salvation is accomplished? (Unless, of course, God rejects the very people He makes righteous, which is nonsense.)

                      You ask: “When then can they be taught and justified when their abhorrance doesn’t cease for a moment during the ages?” The duration of owlam is not given to the reader. Its use has been applied to very short periods of time and very long periods of time. The duration of the owlam could vary from person to person or be the same for all to whom it applies. There’s not enough information to know for sure. It makes sense, though, that the age of abhorrence would end when the person is made righteous.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2012 at 11:41 pm

                      Alice, it is not an age of abhorrence, but personal abhorrence that lasts the duration of their existence. They are resurrected to their own individual condition which is an existence-long-abhorrent-condition.

                      Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes. {Job 42: 6} only “they” can’t even ever repent.

                      That’s your first error and your second is taking the effective wise teachers from the Great Tribulation that precedes the Messianic Millennium, where they truly minister to multitudes of ethnic Israelites unto salvation, to making them ministers to those in the Lake of Fire, the place of abhorrence. That’s out of chronolical order and there’s nothing in Daniel 12: 1 – 3 to justify that. Verse two is parenthetical. The effective wise teachers that enable ethnic national Israel’s conversion to Christ are not resurrected persons, but the God-sealled earthly 144,000 evangelists of the Revelation 7 & 14 Israelite virgin men.

                      You therefore have NO teachers to justify the abhorrent resurrected souls. You’re wresting Scripture to your own destruction. {2 Peter 3: 16}

                      With shamed and abhorrent Israelites raised parenthetical verse two proves not all Israel are saved, thus proving your Amazing Grace false. You don’t have a case, Alice.

                    • admin July 26, 2012 at 2:51 am

                      I notice you say “existence-long” instead of age-long, even though owlam is an age. Existence-long makes it sound as though for as long as they exist, they will be abhorred.

                      Please show me evidence that the multitude “can’t even ever repent”. Where does it say that, Lanny?

                      If you insist on making this about chronology, then you’ve already opposed your own argument. You wrote, “{Isaiah 66: 24} should be viewed along with Mark 9: 43 – 48 as the exposition even furthered by Jude 7′s Sodom and Gomorrha being an example of eternal fire set in Scripture for us to KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that God intends eternal torment for all who will refuse His salvation in this life.”

                      First of all, your argument is based on mistranslation, because the “eternal” fire in Jude 1:7 is aioniou (age-abiding) fire, and this is evidenced by the fact that Sodom is not on fire any more. In Mark 9:43-48 the fire is “not quenched”, not eternal. Neither of these passages supports the idea of eternal torment, but even if they did, Isaiah 66:24 is a premillennial proof text which you lump together with postmillennial proof texts as if they were one and the same fire, which they couldn’t possibly be (at least not from a premillennialism view) because we still have a moon in Isaiah and no more moon in Revelation. And you use these as a way to oppose the idea that there is post-mortem salvation in Daniel 12:2, which means that you are counting these dead among the dead thrown into the Lake of Fire. If you are premillenialist, you can’t do that. Perhaps you are not premillenialist. I apologize if I am mistaken about your chronology views.

                      Even so, pre or post, you can’t be mixing pre and post scriptures on fire or the dead to suit your argument unless you are neither pre or post. You wrote, “That’s out of chronolical order and there’s nothing in Daniel 12: 1 – 3 to justify that.” I don’t have the burden of proof here, you do. You are the one saying that there is no postmortem salvation, even though it clearly happens in Daniel 12. I don’t have to justify your chronology, because no matter what chronology, in Daniel 12 the dead who were awakened to an age of shame are taught and made righteous. It doesn’t matter who the wise teachers are, how many be it 144,000 or zero, virgins or not, at least not for the point I’m making. The DEAD ARE TAUGHT AND MADE RIGHTEOUS OR JUSTIFIED.

                      There is nothing in the text about the multitude being ethnic Israelites. Listen to yourself. You write, “Israelites raised parenthetical verse two” even though the text flows very smoothly from 1-3. There is nothing in the text to justify setting verse two apart from the rest of the text.

                      I want to see you acknowledge the Daniel text. If you don’t acknowledge it, then you need to have a reason WHY. And your reason WHY has to have some basis in reality.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 26, 2012 at 11:57 am

                      Alice’s arguments have always been based on her insistent mistranslations of eternal and all from the start over a year ago which have proved fruitless to attempt to combat due to her unreasonableness to accept the idiom.

                      Sodom and Gomorrha is still suffering eternal fire today because the population is meant, not the physical cities, and the people are in hades in Jude 7. Since death and hades will be cast into the Lake of Fire the fire of hades continues forever as does death.

                      Daniel 12: 3’s many who are turned to righteousness are those mortals on earth who are later awakened to everlasting life as per verse 2. Use some common sense, Alice, because there is no justification in your supposed smooth flow for your interpretation based on your preference. The dead are NEVER taught and made righteous or justified. Prophet passages often jump back and forth in chronology even in the same sentence. To miss that is to show how much of a novice you are.

                      And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people. So who are “thy people” and at that time thy people shall be delivered. Is Daniel an ethnic national Israelite to whom a Deliverer {Messiah} had been nationally promised? Everything in these three verses is ethnic national Israel. Israel as a nation has always had a special angel assigned to it which should demonstrate to you that God will restore it to national prominence on the earth and the nation will rule the world as promised to King David.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 26, 2012 at 12:21 pm

                      And Alice, you still have a chronology problem with “the dead” raised in a mass resurrection to stand in judgment BEFORE they are thrown into the Lake of Fire. Your problem is twofold, a mass resurrection and that before entering the Lake. You fail to see, God dispatches all the spiritually dead vessels of wrath in one quick unchangeable dispensation.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 26, 2012 at 8:52 pm

                      Alice, do you understand a person gets resurrected only ONCE? Do you understand the wicked get resurrected BEFORE being thrown into the Lake of Fire?

                  • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2012 at 2:11 am

                    Also, Alice, both life and abhorrance are sourced in God. They get abhorrance from God as a “gift” for their sin. God utterly hates/abhors them and they utterly hate/abhor God. In that there’s no opportunity for salvation during the ages, since abhorrance is according to you age-during for all the ages as long as there are ages. Abhorrance is therefore penal, not remedial, since it is age-during by your description, which since there’s no way out during all the ages, it is idiomatically eternal torment. Won’t you agree?

                    Abhorrance is contempt, Alice, just a stronger term. I’ll let you insist on a stronger term, because it makes my point all the better.

                    • admin July 25, 2012 at 9:26 am

                      Lanny, I did not write, “abhorrance is according to you age-during for all the ages as long as there are ages”. The text says no such thing. I suspect that you will object that if the life is “age-during for all the ages as long as there are ages” that abhorrence must be given the same definition, but this is not so. The reason for this is that those who have age-abiding life enter into the reign of God and those who overcome will reign with Him. The reign of Christ continues “till he may have put all the enemies under his feet”. Those who enter into His reign and/or reign with Him are included in the age/ages in which He reigns.

                      The Hebrew word for “abhorrence” is a word with an uncertain meaning. It is an honest-guess by translators at best, and in my opinion, not a very good one considering the following: “דרב (√ of following compare Arabic become accustomed, trained, train, compare Fl NHWBi. 444; also Ethiopic (quadriliteral) jaculando infigere, etc.; or, since דָּרְבָן Aramaic in form, & 1 Samuel 13:21 perhaps secondary, possibly regard as Aramaic loan-word & connect with Arabic – be sharp, penetrating).” The text does not say “God utterly hates/abhors them and they utterly hate/abhor God.”

                      If they eternally hate God, how can they ever be turned to righteousness as the text clearly indicates in the Hebrew word “tsadeq” (spelling variation “tsadoq”) which means “make righteous, turn to righteousness, to be just or righteous”? If they are made righteous, will God abhor them? Is it even possible for God, given God’s holy nature, to abhor what has been made righteous?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2012 at 6:25 pm

                      Alice, you keep changing what your words mean and otherwise claim it impossible to know. You made up the story and it is your responsibility to make it work, but you try to hid that it doesn’t work: typical of the cults who also have their own Bible translation.

                      For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ {1 Thessalonians 5: 9}

                      Don’t you see that the many were appointed to wrath. You can’t have people appointed to salvation without having others appointed to wrath.

                      The verse before it reads But let us, who are of the day {1 Thessalonians 5: 8} so also you can’t have children of the day/light {1 Thessalonians 5: 5} without children of the night/darkness.

                      The verse after it Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. {1 Thessalonians 5: 10} you can’t have some living together with Christ without those that never live together with Him.

                      Only Fundamentalists have the faith that pleases God.

                      But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {Hebrews 11: 6}

                      1 Thessalonians 5: 5 – 10 knows nothing of your heresy. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. {1 Thessalonians 5: 11} Why aren’t they told to be also comforted by your Amazing Hope, dear Alice? After all, isn’t that the purpose of your whole blog: to comfort by denying eternal torment.

                      Your heresy falls for lack of Biblical support as simple as night and day.

                    • admin July 26, 2012 at 12:03 am

                      You write, “you keep changing what your words mean” – please explain what word and how I have changed the meaning.

                      You write, “and otherwise claim it impossible to know.” – please show me any scripture that gives us details about AFTER the ages. Just one verse will do. Demonstrate that it is possible to know, if you think I am wrong about it. The only thing that we know for sure is that God is all in all. Maybe God keeps making new ages. Maybe He brings time to an end and does something we can’t even imagine. Who knows? What we do know is that there is no more death and our bodies are immortal and we exist in His light. I can’t wait to find out what God has in store for us, how amazing it will be to be reunited with our loved ones. What a privilege it is and will be to partner with Him in the reconciliation of all things.

                      You write, “You made up the story” – are you talking about the story of post-mortem salvation? I quoted Daniel. I explained what the key words are in Hebrew. It is right there in the text that the multitudes are “tsadeq”= “make righteous, turn to righteousness, to be just or righteous”. The only way I could have made up that story is if I was a time traveler and I am actually the true author of the book of Daniel. Your challenge of my so-called heresy is that there’s a “lack of Biblical support”. Yet there it is.

                      I am not convinced when you say there’s a lack of Biblical support. I would literally have to ignore what is right there in front of both of our faces in Daniel. You don’t have a way to explain why Daniel says what it does about the multitudes. Is that why you are redirecting the conversation, why you move on to other texts such as 1 Thes. and Hebrews? I could give you the Greek and demonstrate how neither of these texts supports the eternal torment doctrine, but that would not be a productive use of my time. If you dismiss Daniel without explaining why, if you dismiss a text that YOU introduced into the discussion in an attempt to prove the God-dishonoring doctrine of eternal torment, why should I continue in discussion with you? Your actions demonstrate that you have no desire to follow a line of reasoning to its conclusion.

                      And that’s why I have left so many of your questions unanswered, Lanny. It isn’t because I don’t have answers, it is because every time I give you an answer, you ignore it and info-dump any and every convenient proof text, redirecting the discussion. Look over all the comments you have made that I responded to, and see if you recognize the pattern of behavior. I like engaging in discussion with you, it is obvious to me that you don’t want to see a discussion CONCLUDE (conclude = bring about a result, for example, me being unable to oppose an eternal torment proof-text or you being unable to oppose a universal text, because we have exhausted the process of opposition and rebuttal, and one idea stands while the other falls). Usually, I oppose an eternal torment text, and then you just name others, instead of offering rebuttal against my opposition. If you do offer rebuttal, I tell you the reason why your rebuttal won’t work. And when we get to the point where you run out of answers, you just move on to another text.

                      I want to see you acknowledge the Daniel text. If you don’t acknowledge it, then you need to have a reason WHY. Perhaps you think that writing, “You can’t have people appointed to salvation without having others appointed to wrath” is a reason why, but it isn’t. There is no basis for that argument, and it isn’t anywhere in the Daniel text. It’s not even in the Bible. It is a doctrine that people invented. Those “appointed to wrath” can’t add to or take away from the work of Christ in the others. Where on earth did you get that idea? Jesus Christ died and rose again, that is the way, the ONLY way people are saved.

                      Tell explain why Daniel says the multitude is taught and made righteous/justified if post-mortem salvation is an impossibility. It’s okay to say “I don’t know.” At this point, it would be the most intelligent response you could give besides, “Wow. I never realized that. I better reexamine my chronological views, because something obviously doesn’t jive with them.” I believe it is possible for you to see this. With God anything is possible. Even you, Lanny, being willing to scrutinize your doctrine as closely as you scrutinize mine.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 26, 2012 at 2:49 am

                      See above for Daniel 12: 1 – 3 @ Your comment is awaiting moderation. July 25, 2012 at 11:41 pm

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 24, 2012 at 8:33 pm

                  Worm and fire in the Old:
                  And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. {Isaiah 66: 24} should be viewed along with Mark 9: 43 – 48 as the exposition even furthered by Jude 7’s Sodom and Gomorrha being an example of eternal fire set in Scripture for us to KNOW beyond any reasonable doubt that God intends eternal torment for all who will refuse His salvation in this life. An abhorring unto all flesh includes God’s saints, so just as God’s soul {Psalm 11: 5} hates the person who does violence to His words, so do I in the depth of my soul utterly hate every unbeliever. I love them only enough to preach Christ to them, pray for their salvation, and physically help them, which isn’t often; otherwise I let the dead bury their dead.

                  Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies. {Psalm 139: 21 & 22}

                  Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. {Psalm 51: 12 & 13}

                  PS the context of Isaiah 66: 24 is the literal Messianic Millennial Kingdom of Christ’s Second Coming at Jerusalem and is compared to the new heavens and the new earth which He will afterwards make following Satan’s release from the bottomless pit, his final destruction and termination in the Lake of Fire, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment of all “the dead” of the earth in which they are all thrown into the Lake of Fire; then God make all things new for His saints. I need for your sake to emphasize the new creation is ONLY for His saints and no sinners are allowed.

                  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. {Revelation 21: 27}

                  None of you will be able to enter if you’re not in the Lamb’s Book of Life; and there are those who will think they are, but are NOT to whom Jesus will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 23}

                  • Stephen Helbig July 25, 2012 at 12:06 am

                    Ran out of room to reply @ my last post ~ July 24, 2012 at 11:42 pm

                    I too was a Pharisee of Pharisees so I can relate to Saul of Tarsus ~ becoming Paul.

                    Pray Saul’s not lingering around

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 25, 2012 at 6:42 pm

                      These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. {Proverbs 6: 16 – 19}

                      Note a lying tongue, an heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, a false witness that speaketh lies are all good ways to deflect truth.

                  • Stephen Helbig July 26, 2012 at 1:09 pm

                    I hope this goes to the correct spot, (concerning the reply button I’ve clicked)

                    Lanny’s quote ~ July 24, 2012 at 8:33 pm as follows ~ “PS the context of Isaiah 66: 24 is the literal Messianic Millennial Kingdom of Christ’s Second Coming at Jerusalem and is compared to the new heavens and the new earth which He will afterwards make following Satan’s release from the bottomless pit, his final destruction and termination in the Lake of Fire, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment of all “the dead” of the earth in which they are all thrown into the Lake of Fire; then God make all things new for His saints. I need for your sake to emphasize the new creation is ONLY for His saints and no sinners are allowed.
                    And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. {Revelation 21: 27}
                    None of you will be able to enter if you’re not in the Lamb’s Book of Life; and there are those who will think they are, but are NOT to whom Jesus will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 23}” ~end quote.

                    Lanny, a lot has been said about chronology lately in some of your comments in previous posts and at looking at this quote, I don’t know where to even begin, because (?) it will take LIGHT years ~ HIS LIGHT, in HIS TIMING for us, ~ but would you please consider this,~ after all the chronological events that your lists contain ~At the very end of the book it says this,~ “COME” (Rev. 22: 17), (after your chronological lake of fire , and those outside, (outside where the dogs and the sorcerers are, and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.) ~ The admonitions are then and now ~ “COME”. This is at the end of the book.

                    How does one describe All in ALL ~ I can’t begin to with mere semantics, ~ but this I know ~ THE ALL POWERFUL < THE ALL KNOWING < THE EVER PRESENT < THE ALL BENEVOLENT

                    ~ The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty “Come” ~ let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost” … “COME”, (verse 17)

                    ~ This is our call, ~ The Spirit ~ The Holy Spirit ~ Entreats repeatedly ~ “ALL” ~ “COME”

                    ~ At the close of the wonderful book, “THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST”, is a deep impression of the ample provision which has been made for the salvation of our fallen race. Nothing could be more appropriate at the close of the book, at the close of the whole volume of revealed truth, than to announce, in the most clear and attracting form, that salvation is free to… “ALL”

                    • Stephen Helbig July 26, 2012 at 1:51 pm

                      p.s. to my above comment, July 26, 2012 at 1:09 pm ~ LIGHT YEAR ~ a twinlkling of HIS EYE ~ saying … “COME”

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 28, 2012 at 12:47 am

                      Stephen, I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. {Revelation 22: 16 & 17}

                      Stephen, some time ago I showed Revelation 22: 16 & 17 is the conclusion of the vision in which John is returned to his own first century church age of grace because the instructions are for the church which still is the BRIDE of Christ {it hasn’t yet become the Lamb’s wife as per 19: 7 the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready}. The chronology of the Revelation makes this invitation only available until 20: 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

                      In case you missed my meaning according to what you propose, the invitation to the water of life is not made to those persons who are in the Lake of Fire. Compare Luke 16: 24 where the rich man’s request {to send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame} was denied. In fact everything was denied him and so that pictures the Lake of Fire where everything will be denied to its populace.

                      Alice and you need to stop avoiding the chronology and start answering it. Your whole basket of doctrines falls apart for lack of a proper chronology revolving around unbelievers’ (1) Resurrection, (2) Final Judgment, and (3) Punishment. You cannot get them reconciled without a chronology conflict. This is all about unbelievers who physically die without confessing Christ. Your Amazing Hope cannot possibly work chronologically, meaning it is absolutely false and as good as any of Satan’s lies.

                      Where is the dead shall be raised incorruptible {1 Corinthians 15: 52} regarding the resurrection of the unbeliever to contempt, abhorrance, damnation, in the Lake of Fire; since you want this descriptive resurrection to include unbelievers as well as believers. How can you possibly have incorruptible unbelievers when incorruptible means not corrupted by sins nor by the sinful nature, the body of this death? See, this is why 1 Corinthians 15’s resurrection is only possible regarding the saints to whom it was written and sinners are nowhere addressed in the chapter. I mean, like if you can’t see this, why are you even messing with other Scriptures, like when you can’t even see anything clearly? Incorruption is holiness. Think, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption{15: 54} how much time does that take? In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible {15: 52} So where is the time it takes for remedial purification by fire and brimstone in the Lake of Fire? Alice said it might take ages. Can’t you see your Amazing Hope doesn’t work for the unbeliever who physically dies without confessing Christ.

                      Chronology, chronology, CHRONOLOGY !!!

                      You have no case without it.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 28, 2012 at 9:26 am

                      All unbelievers are corrupt unbelievers both now and when they enter the Lake of Fire. The corrupt unbelievers must be first resurrected and then judged before they enter the Lake which you falsely suppose to be remedial.

                      How is {1 Corinthians 15: 52} the dead shall be raised incorruptible applicable to all of the corrupt unbelievers? They were raised to contempt, abhorrance, condemnation, in the Lake of Fire.

                    • Stephen Helbig July 29, 2012 at 3:32 am

                      The prophet Hosea was moved upon by the Holy Spirit to point out Israel’s woeful lack, when he said: ‘Hear the word of the Lord, ye children of Israel: for the Lord hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, NOR KNOWLEDGE OF GOD in the land.’ (Hos. 4:1) The exceeding lack which truly grieved the Lord, was a lack of the knowledge of God among His people, and that lack was a lack of truth and mercy. We may pride ourselves on the abundance of knowledge which we have gained in our spiritual growth unto maturity, but it is certain that the Lord would consider us as being unfinished and incomplete when we are compared to the stature and fullness of the maturity of Christ. Certainly we corperately have a long way to go, we must see the Lord in His merciful purpose understanding our lack. The mercy of the Lord endures forever see psalm 136 (MERCY ENDURETH FOREVER) (Psalm 136 ~ MERCY 26 times)

                      Should we not also have this same mercy this same loving kindness and proclaim mercy on our fellow slaves in the land, in the same way that God had mercy on us? Let us gaze upon ~ The whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
                      We are the Israel of God, the inhabitants of the land, ZION, the CHURCH, the temple of The Lord, bride , wife, mountain of God , many membered body, Made one with our Lord, The Children of God ~ To proclaim victory in Christ Jesus our Lord for ALL and I say ~ COME

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 30, 2012 at 1:35 am

                      Stephen, are you numbering yourself with the corrupt unbelieving now generation because you believe yourself incomplete? I hope so.

                      The corrupt unbelievers will be resurrected and then judged before they enter the Lake which you falsely suppose to be remedial. They were raised in the corruption of contempt, abhorrance, condemnation, and the Lake of Fire.

                      There’s no incorruption ever for them.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 28, 2012 at 3:11 pm

    I hope I’ve made my objection to your basket full of heresies perfectly clear to you and it doesn’t just stand on chronology, because Daniel 12: 2’s contempt {KJV}, your abhorrance, and John 5: 29’s damnation {KJV} or judgment is a contradiction to 1 Corinthians 15: 52’s incorruptible.

    1 Corinthians 15: 52 cannot be the same resurrection as the resurrection of the unbelievers in Daniel 12: 2 and John 5: 29. 1 Corinthians 15: 52 must only be the same resurrection as the resurrection of the believers in Daniel 12: 2 and John 5: 29. Daniel 12: 2 contains TWO separate and distinct resurrections and so does John 5: 29. The First Resurrection of each passage is the incorruptible one of only saints. The second resurrection of each passage is the corruptible one of only unbelievers.

    Can I get an Amen from you all? Then explain yourself.

    • admin July 28, 2012 at 10:51 pm

      Daniel 12:2 AND ***3***… You are ignoring what matters most – the end, that is, the result – righteousness. So we actually carry a conversation to its end and what are we left with? Me, taking the passage as it is and believing it. You, taking the passage, splitting it in half, and connecting each half with certain scriptures . Why? So that it fits in with your chronology. Then you demand that I explain the scripture in light of your interpretation (or should I say butchering).

      It reminds me of my father-in-law (RIP), whose cell phone was broken and when he went to have it fixed or replaced, the person at the counter was no help. She asks, “Is there anything else I can do to help you?” So what does he do? He throws it on the floor, crushes it under his cowboy boot, and says, “You can clean up this damn mess.”

      You’ve made a mess of Daniel 12:2-3, and if you want it cleaned up, you are going to have to clean it up yourself.

      I don’t base my interpretation of the entire Bible on the book of Revelation like you do. I don’t have a problem with admitting that I don’t understand exactly how God is going to do what He does in a precise order. In fact, I’m suspicious of anyone who claims to have all the answers in a nice neat little chronological order like you do. There’s a feeling of safety in having all the answers. Admitting that you don’t means you have to trust God, that He knows what He is doing. I believe 1 Cor. 15:52, Daniel 12:2-3, and John 5:29. I have some good guesses about chronology, but good guesses could be wrong.

      The book is reading you – you prefer to trade theoretical chronology (which is nothing more than a wrong guess in my opinion) over a plain reading of the text. The plain reading of the text is that of hope and the multitude that awakes to a shameful state is reconciled to God, just as God promised. The butchered reading that fits your theoretical chronology is that of hopelessness and God as a promise breaker. The book is reading you, Lanny.

      • Stephen Helbig July 29, 2012 at 9:50 am

        Alice I love the way you bring Gods wisdom to Daniel 12, and I’ll quote you once more for it is worth repetition ~
        QUOTE, ~ “Daniel 12:2-3 paints a hopeful picture of the ages to come:” ~ “And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches – to abhorrence age-during. And those teaching (“cause to consider, give insight, teach”) do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude (“make righteous, turn to righteousness”) as stars to the age and forever.” ~ End quote
        Yes indeed, the wise mentioned in this book of Daniel, who shall shine with the brightness of the stars of the firmament throughout all enduring ages ~ These will turn the ungodly to righteousness. It truly seems to have been the intention, (in Daniel 12), to employ language so general that it might be applied to All, of all ages ~.
        ~ And they that turn many to righteousness, “that justify many”; ~ are as the stars forever and ever, (TO THE AGE AND FOREVER). They that “instruct and lead”; or make others wise teach, ~ the doctrine of a sinner’s free justification by the righteousness of Christ. The wise lead and direct, to the righteousness of Christ, as being that which only justifies before God. It is God alone that justifies men, by imputing the righteousness of his Son unto them; the wise show the multitudes of those sleeping to AWAKE to the way of justification, and this being the principal doctrine of the Gospel. Surely no one deserves the name of a Gospel minister who does not preach this ministry of reconciliation in this age and the ages to come.

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 30, 2012 at 12:47 pm

          Stephen see my reply above Lanny A. Eichert says: July 30, 2012 at 1:21 am Daniel.

          You and Alice still have no way to have teachers to be even be in contact with unbelievers after their resurrections. Unbelievers are in the old Lake of Fire ISOLATED from God’s saints. God’s saints are in the New Heaven and New Earth when God makes all things new.

          Pay attention to {Luke 16: 26} And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

          Since hades is cast into the Lake of Fire that great gulf is still intact.
          BETWEEN SAINTS AND UNBELIEVERS THERE IS A GREAT GULF FIXED
          Jesus said there is NO passing over it.
          Jesus said so. Why will you not believe it?
          There is no justifying teaching since there is no contact between the two worlds.

          • admin July 30, 2012 at 4:23 pm

            Abraham and the Rich Man have a conversation, so you really can’t say “there is no contact between the two worlds.” Well, I guess you can say it, like you say everything else, but the no-contact theory is pretty much shot to hell (no pun intended). It doesn’t matter anyway, though, because that parable wasn’t meant to be applied as you apply it.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHXrAzu55VQ
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NDTZNN_fPw&feature=relmfu
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmQG0UC9HwY&feature=relmfu
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA2Zrsb3gW0&feature=relmfu

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 30, 2012 at 7:42 pm

              Alice, the rich man is NOT talking to Lazarus nor any other contemporary person, he is talking to Abraham, the guardian of the good side of Hades that has no tormenting flames. After Christ’s resurrection none of the apostles ever speak of Abraham’s guardianship, but only that the saints are inmmediately present with the Lord Jesus Christ upon physical death. There is no contact between the two worlds.

              You can deny its truth all you want, calling it a parable when it is NOT, and you’ll suffer for your deliberate refusal. It is a true life story with a named individual, which no parable has.

              You still have no way to get the gospel to those rebels in the Lake of Fire, besides they are confirmed rebels who will never change, never repent. Where do I get that? There is no Scripture that supports a single conversion after physical death. The rich man never begged to be converted, did he, Alice? Even your silly interpretation doesn’t include his remorse and prayer of repentance or even desire to repent.

              Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. {Hebrews 12: 16 & 17}

              Don’t you see, God’s vessels fitted for destruction will never repent nor are they able. {Romans 9: 22}

              • admin July 31, 2012 at 4:34 pm

                “There is no Scripture that supports a single conversion after physical death.” = Lanny does not recognize any scripture that supports post-death conversion.

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2012 at 5:49 pm

                  You don’t have even one, Alice, and I’ve showed your contradictions of time and words.

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 1, 2012 at 2:55 am

                  Prove it by just one person in the Bible who after he physically died was converted to Christ and saved from eternal torment. Not Esau, nor the rich man, nor Judas Iscariot; all three are left to their reward without remedy.

                  Why are there so many real persons listed in the Bible who in this life were converted to Christ and saved from Eternal Torment, but there are none listed converted and saved after they died?

                  The Old Testament covered at least four thousand years and the New Testament was being written, but there are none of earths’ people listed as having been converted after physical death. You’d think if your god was in the business of saving everybody, he’d have saved a goodly number of those who died in the first four thousand years. You’ve heard that from me previously and that track record doesn’t speak highly of your all-saving god. Your answer I suppose is soul-sleep, but Lazarus’ benefactor, the rich man, wasn’t sleeping because he was tormented day and night forever. Remember the Author of that true life story.

                  The literal perfect Holy Bible provides true life conversions of many mortal persons, but not one immortal person’s conversion in over four thousand years. The Bible proves conversion in this life is more than just possible. The Bible proves conversion after death is unmentionable. So shut your mouth. Because there is NO truth to conversion after physical death. Besides, you have lousy chronology and word contradictions in your pitiful efforts.

                  Hear stories of true life conversions at http://www.unshackled.org

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 29, 2012 at 12:31 am

      What matters most to you – the end, that is, the result by which you force every Scripture to fit. You have come to the Holy Bible which you don’t even trust and make it say what you want it to say. You’ve said so yourself in those words, “what matters most – the end, that is, the result.” Every cult does the same thing: justifies the means by the ends. They also like you refuse to face the context. The context of Daniel 12: 1 – 3 is the deliverance of the Israelite nation by the Messiah King Jesus as stated in the first verse. That deliverance begins at the Millennial reign of Christ, meaning it is at least 1,000 years BEFORE the resurrection of the unbelievers. You also have the conflict of contradictory words from Daniel, John, & 1 Corinthians: contempt/abhorrence, condemnation/judgment, and incorruptible; and the first two are certainly corruptible in nature.

      Your Amazing Hope is doubly proven false exposed by your manipulation of Scripture wrenched from their contexts., exposed by the contradiction of their own words, as well as chronology.

      I showed you the only way 1 Corinthians 15: 52 fits Daniel 12: 2 and John 5: 29 is that both reference the saints’ resurrection, so, yes it fits the first parts of the two: the saints are raised incorruptible. Since it fits the first part of each, it does NOT fit the second part of each which is about unbelievers described in terms of corruption opposite the incorruption of 1 Corinthians 15: 52. Unbelievers are NOT raised incorruptible, Alice, they are raised in the state of corruption and unto a further state of corruption even as YOU MUST have them in your remedial Lake of Fire. Your remedial Lake of Fire must have its new recruits in a corruptible state in order to remedially benefit them and bring them into repentance, submission, and godly conformity worthy of the new creation. It is your remedial Lake of Fire that molds your Amazing Hope unbelievers into a state of incorruptibility, not the 1 Corinthians 15: 52 resurrection. By your insistence upon applying 1 Corinthians 15: 52 to unbelievers, you cause a Scriptural contradiction of words which defeats your whole doctrinal scheme.

      Stop scheming against God and simply believe 1 Corinthians 15: 52 is only the resurrection of saints according to context and sensibility. God gave us an intellect to see the red flags of corrupt chronology and contradictory words and reject such heresies. The Book of Mormon ancient peoples that migrated to the North America continent rode horses and used steel swords in warfare before Columbus, but the American Indians who descended from them knew of neither, so chronologically we know Mormonism is historically false. The same goes for your doctrines, Alice, because your chronology doesn’t work, even though you refuse to outline your chronology, yet your doctrines suggest one very clearly and it is contradictory as I’ve tried to show you.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 30, 2012 at 1:21 am

    Daniel, It truly seems to have been the intention, (in Daniel 12), to employ language so general that …. That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. {Mark 4: 12 & Daniel 12: 10} Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. What matters most to you – the end, that is, the result by which you force every Scripture to fit. You have come to the Holy Bible which you don’t even trust and make it say what you want it to say. Since most Bible versions don’t fit your heresy, you must resort to you own version and argue about words.

    The net result is your jesus is a Liar in His prophetic {John 17: 12} prayer regarding Judas Iscariot and also in His Revelation given to His apostle John which He concluded with a populated Lake of Fire without remedy.

    The context of Daniel 12 begins in chapter ten and runs through to the end of twelve as a continuous chronology of Israelite prophetic history, making 12: 2 parenthetical and 12: 2b separated from verse 3 by a thousand years.

    To “not perceive” this context is to not be “converted” and to not have sins “forgiven” IAW {in accordance with} Mark 4: 12 quoted above.

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