Abundant Life

Abundant Life

 

What does it mean to have abundant life?  For at least a decade, I understood the abundant life to be “eternal” life, and that eternal life starts when life on earth ends.  Then, for a few years an unsettled yearning stirred in me, saying, “There’s more.”  I struggled to find it, whatever it was.  I looked into the faces of other believers and recognized that same longing.  I listened to Christian music and heard that longing in lyrics like, “we need You,” and I wondered, “Why do we still need You when we already have You? Our cups should be ‘filled,’ in fact, ‘running over,’ if the promises in Your word are true.”  So why did I see hunger in churches everywhere and in my own heart?  This, along with a few other prompts, is what caused me to enter into a long season of prayer.  I knew God had the answer, and I was determined that He give it to me.

 

If I possessed the abundant life, then perhaps I needed an instruction manual for it.  The scriptures must be written in Chinese, or else I would have already figured this thing out.  So I prayed to the One who can make sense of scripture.  During this long season of prayer, I learned God’s sense of humor.  Have you ever played the game of hot and cold?  The person designated “it” hides an item, while everyone is not looking.  Then, when the person who is “it” says it is time to look, the others begin searching.  “It” tells the others if they are cold or warm or hot, depending on how close they are to the hiding place.  In this case, God was it and I was looking.  Imagine my surprise when I heard the word “warm” in places I never expected to find it, like church history, where people are being tortured and murdered by church leaders, and imagine my surprise when I heard the word “warmer” when I considered whether the church had outwardly stopped murdering and torturing but inwardly was still just as cruel as it was back then.  “Seriously, God?” I wondered.  Were we really that ugly inside – the way Jesus described the inside of the Pharisees sparkling white cups, full of rotting dead stuff?  And imagine how I came unglued when I started seeing what orthodoxy considers “heresy” in the scriptures, glorious truths that were discarded with contempt – and God said, “hot.”

 

The abundant life is not safe, by religious standards.  How exciting!  I began to share some of my “safe” observations with others, and keeping my “unsafe” observations to myself.  (We are rotting.  The church is beautiful on the outside and ugly on the inside.  We have a serious problem.  The very foundation of “Christianity” is cracked.  We are putting band-aids on a gushing wound.  We are bleeding out.  We are dying.)  But no one wanted to hear it.  I got a push back: Look at how we help this homeless person, look at how incredible our worship is, look at how engaged we are in studying spiritual things, look at how we memorize scripture, look at how we share our burdens, etc. – as if the abundant life could be produced by a system of death.  And I knew that if my “safe” revelation produced a push back, then my “unsafe” revelation would likely result in a full-blown shove – and maybe even a kick in the teeth.  I never imagined it would entail being crucified with Christ.  (And why didn’t I?  He specifically told me that is what it would be like.)

 

The abundant life is right here, right now.  Not that I don’t believe God has even more amazing things in store for us, of course He does.  He starts simple and builds.  It is a dynamic process that we can enter into any time.  Believers are already part of a system that acts as a substitute for the abundant life, so they are tricked into thinking they already have everything they need.  They deny the hunger, because to hunger is to admit that what they have is not enough.  To admit what they have is not enough is to admit that something is wrong with the system.  If something is wrong with the system, then the unbelievers were right in rejecting all those church invitations.  The unbelievers were right in saying that Christianity is fake, hypocritical, and full of holes.  What a blow to pride!

 

The abundant life is right here, right now.  The reason most believers are afraid of it, is that they don’t embrace the past, a trail of heartache, like the wake behind a ship.  All of the horrors and bloodshed throughout history that were committed in the name of Christ were produced by the system that today presents itself as rehabilitated or reformed.  Believers need to own the injustice, admit to it, repent of it in behalf of those who did it.  But it was only reformed in theory and in appearance. It was never reformed in practice.  Christian leaders are still torturing and murdering heretics, still going on the witch-hunt, still enforcing Mosaic law/works, and still crucifying the body of Christ, only they are doing it on an emotional level, using peer pressure as their power and fear as their weapon.  And the Christian masses are still standing by and silently allowing it all to happen, reasoning that those who have been placed in a position of God-given authority all agree with each other, so they must be right.  Believers need to see the past as something we did and still do, because when we believed, we willingly entered into a system instead of entering into the Reign (Kingdom) of God.

 

The abundant life is right here, right now.  The arrogant whore who parades around adoring herself, calling herself the bride of Christ, who looks in the mirror and only sees her jewelry and clothes and hair and never once considers what is going on inside – she is getting older.  Her beauty is fading fast, people are noticing, and she is desperate.  In the coming decades, she will have plastic surgery, undergoing radical procedures to keep up the appearance of beauty, but time will get the best of her.  She never had the abundant life in the past and that is obvious to everyone, including herself.  She convinces herself she has the abundant life now, but the lyrics to her songs say otherwise.  Everyone will know that she will not have abundant life in the future, as she declines.  She is desperate and hopeless.

 

The abundant life is right here, right now.  If moving away from Christianity is moving more toward Christ, then do it!  What is Christianity, really?  It is a word that has been hijacked, and the whore is the one who hijacked it.  She did it so deceptively that she even deceived herself.  She sees that the word is not working any more, people are seeing a difference between her beauty and the real beauty, so she tries another – follower of Christ.  And then she tries another, with a trendy flair – Jesus Freaks.  But the world is beginning to understand that her labels are only labels and nothing more.  There is nothing real, alive, stimulating, or abundant about her.  The abundant life is something she seeks to attain, not something she possesses, and certainly not something she can offer to anyone else.

 

The abundant life is in the room with you.  It has been with you everywhere you go, all along, because it is inside you.  He is speaking life to anyone with the ears to hear it.  So, what do you hear?  Lies?  Then you will have your own “truth” instead of the abundant life.  What do you hear?  Danger?  Then you will have your “safety” instead of the abundant life.

 

The abundant life is so fulfilling that what I used to see as fulfilling my need is like junk to me, now.  There is nothing in the system that I need.  There is nothing, absolutely nothing that the system can give me that I don’t already have.  It is both empty and emptying of anyone who is part of it.  It offers nothing but illegitimate hierarchy, emotional violence, half-truths, and spiritual poverty in a package so beautiful that one could spend a lifetime so caught up in admiring it that he or she never opens it to discover the disappointment and death inside.  I can never return to it as a member of it, only as a sad spectator or a trouble maker, because I can’t function within it with a clear conscience before God.  There are no actions I could perform or words I could speak as a member of it that would not be scrutinized by the power hungry and fearful spiritual police.  I am a cancer in it, because I demand that we stop manipulating, deceiving, oppressing.  And a body that functions on manipulation, deception, and oppression is destroyed by the abundant life in me.

 

 

Barbie

Comments
  • Stephen Helbig July 18, 2012 at 5:28 pm

    “all agree with each other, so they must be right.” ~ WRONG ~ to truckle with the MOB may be “safe” ~ but also may be WRONG ~ “Come out of her my people”

    “entering into the Reign (Kingdom) of God”

    ~ Is not my help in me? – My help is all in myself; and, alas! that is PERFECT WEAKNESS: and my subsistence, all that is real, stable, and permanent, is driven quite from me. My friends have forsaken me, and I am abandoned to myself; my substance (ego) is all taken away, and I have no resources left. ~ Thank you Jesus for when I am week you are strong

    ~ Paul prayed that God would grant according to the riches of His glory, “to be strengthened with might” BY HIS SPIRIT in the inner man
    ~ This process ~ Gods is working ~ changes the order to spirit, soul, and body
    The Holy Spirit indwells, He imparts power for daily abundant living. This power IS NOT a once-and –for-all act, it is a continual process of the Spirit;
    ~ Before our Lord ascended he told believers Ye shall receive power, after the Holy Ghost is come… and ye “shall be witnesses” (Acts 1:8)
    ~ “Witnesses” ~ (Greek word ~”martyres)” ~ (English word ~ “martyrs , martyrdom”)

    p.s.~ take up your cross

    p.s.s ~ The greatest is LOVE, if you wanna be great in Gods kingdom (reign) learn to be the servant of ALL~ all all all all all all all all

    “And a body that functions on (manipulation, deception, and oppression) is destroyed by the abundant life in me.” ~ notice the thief comes to (kill ,destroy, and steal)
    ~ Jesus says ~ “But I have come” ~ abundant life ~ servant of ALL

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 18, 2012 at 6:15 pm

    Alice, abundant life is only a function of a literal perfect Holy Bible based convesion whose Christ prophesied in prayer Judas Iscariot’s eternally perished condition {John 17: 12}, warned six times of eternal tormenting fire {Mark 9: 43 – 48}, and ended His Revelation with a populated Lake of Fire that has no remedy.

    Any one who cannot accept eternal torment has no reason to turn to a christ who saves from anything less, that cannot even be verified.

    • admin July 20, 2012 at 10:21 am

      “no reason to turn to a christ” – ???

      Is fear of eternal torment the only reason you turned to Christ? I hope not. What about the goodness of God? What about the joy of being reconciled to Him? Aren’t there other motivators besides fear? What about love?

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 20, 2012 at 3:37 pm

        Alice, WHY did Jesus die? WHAT is the problem between God and man? To cover THAT by love so that you loose sight of the consequences of SIN is to mask Christianity in Satan’s lie. A whole book of the Bible is dedicated to Sin and Servitude: see Judges. Everything about sin in the Bible points to destruction, WHY? The end: eternal torment, that’s why. That’s not about a vengeful God, but about natural consequences. {Romans 1: 27} receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. IN THEMSELVES natural consequences, and God prepared a place for them isolated from His saints, the Lake of Fire. Before television, when men could read and think about reality the Bible put fear in them because of their sins. They knew judgment day would come {Hebrews 10: 27 & 9: 27} and why. Satan has used TV and liberal religion to soften and even remove the fear of hell from society so it can sleep in hell without ever knowing it until it is too late. Get them away from the perfect literal Holy Bible is his moto.

        The only proper way to come to Christ is as a SINNER doomed for certain hell and the eternal Lake of Fire. Any other reason minimizes Christ’s death, His physical and spiritual deathes for our sins. That God knows seemingly insignificant me and died in my place to save me from eternal fire is without doubt the motivator: the personal attention of God in Christ, which you may want to call the goodness and love of God; but it is all because of the consequences of my sins.

        See, Alice, your view undermines the extent of salvation such that you have even proposed a purgatory of the Lake of Fire even for believers to have the last remnants of their sin nature purified. The sin nature cannot be purified; the sin nature must be destroyed, put to death; it cannot be salvaged and purified. God will not have it so; He must have a New Creation of His believers. The old is forever gone. That’s why I keep telling you there is no purpose at all for the believer to go through the Second Death. At the very moment he comes to faith, the believer’s sins are ALL removed. Why can’t you make all to be ALL there? Never will the believer be judged for sins, because he has NONE. {John 5: 24 & Romans 8: 1} Jesus is the Lamb of God that has taken away his sins, all of them. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace {Ephesians 1: 7 & Colossians 1: 14} In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins. Either you have forgiveness or you don’t; there’s no partial forgiveness with God. The “we” are exclusively believers in this life, no one else. That’s to whom the text is written, so don’t take it from its context.

        Alice, I wish for you and your friends this happiness that I’ve found, you can depend on Him and His perfect literal Holy Bible to know beyond any doubt ALL of your sins are forgiven, removed totally the moment you truly believe the true Jesus Christ, God Lamb that takes away all sins, but only for those who will believe “now”. Give up your foolish christ who doesn’t mean what he says and come to the real God, why wait?

        He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. {Revelation 22: 11}

        • admin July 21, 2012 at 12:48 am

          Usually, when you say “Alice, your view…” it is followed by ideas that are not my view. And I don’t feel like debating tonight.

          • Michelle July 31, 2012 at 1:07 pm

            “The abundant life is so fulfilling that what I used to see as fulfilling my need is like junk to me, now. There is nothing in the system that I need. There is nothing, absolutely nothing that the system can give me that I don’t already have. It is both empty and emptying of anyone who is part of it. It offers nothing but illegitimate hierarchy, emotional violence, half-truths, and spiritual poverty in a package so beautiful that one could spend a lifetime so caught up in admiring it that he or she never opens it to discover the disappointment and death inside. I can never return to it as a member of it, only as a sad spectator or a trouble maker, because I can’t function within it with a clear conscience before God. There are no actions I could perform or words I could speak as a member of it that would not be scrutinized by the power hungry and fearful spiritual police. I am a cancer in it, because I demand that we stop manipulating, deceiving, oppressing. And a body that functions on manipulation, deception, and oppression is destroyed by the abundant life in me.”

            I’m glad I left the religious system altogether years ago and I would rather die than step into a church building ever again. Whether it’s Protestant, Charismatic, Presbyterian, etc, or worse, Catholic or Pentacostal (those last two being extremely legalistic). Churches are whitewashed tombs and there is even less freedom and peace in the system than outside of it…

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 20, 2012 at 6:14 pm

        Aren’t there other motivators besides fear? (to turn to Christ)

        For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. {Hebrews 10: 26 & 27}

        But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. These are God’s words, Alice, one by one. Look further at 28 -31

        He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

        • admin July 21, 2012 at 12:43 am

          So, would that be a yes or a no? Are you saying that fear is the only motivation to turn to Christ?

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2012 at 1:42 am

            yes

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2012 at 3:04 am

              Alice, my yes is like this because it is written in tears because of your disbelief, while I would have loved to write it as a shouting YES if you had the slightest spiritual insight. Jesus profits you nothing because all you want is a lovely friend, a Secret Pal. Well you can’t have Him that way, because He is unwilling. First you must have Him as Lord and Savior. The sin issue comes first with Christ. It is just incidental with you. You don’t view every sin as an infinite abomination infinitely offending the infinite God Who infinitely punished His own infinite Son for the sake of saving the few who would believe when He draws them in fear of condemnation for their sins to the Savior’s agony sufficient to save every human soul. His “hour” was the Cross upon which He agonized “Why have You forsaken Me?” He must utter those words over your sins before He can be your Friend. If He doesn’t utter those words for you, then you will utter those words over you own sins forever in eternal agony and torment. That’s what you’ve got to fear, Alice.

              Listen to the radio stories of true life conversions at http://www.unshackled.org

              • admin July 21, 2012 at 11:28 am

                You believe that fear is the ONLY motivation to turn to Christ. That explains a lot about the nature of your comments. What if someone turns to Christ because he/she is convinced that His death and resurrection are true and wants to be part of something amazing? Does that not count?

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2012 at 3:07 pm

                  Certainly NOT.

                  His death and resurrection being true has no meaning unless the cause is personal sin and the purpose is to spare the person the sure fearful prospect of hell fire and brimstone forever.

                  Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men {2 Corinthians 5: 11}
                  a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour {Hebrews 10: 27 & 28} how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy

                  Dear Alice, when you ask such questions how can I possibly believe you understand how horrible sin is and what it cost God. To turn to Christ just to be on the winning side or on the best side? That’s the situation described in Hebrews 6: 4 – 6 where true repentance becomes impossible for even God to make real in a person. Thank God they to who it was written hadn’t slipped that far according to verse 9. What about YOU? and your friends because of you?

                  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. {Hebrews 10: 31}

                  Listen to the stories of conversion to Abundant Life at http://www.unshackled.org

                  • admin July 22, 2012 at 11:43 am

                    Whatever English translation you use paints a very different picture than that in Greek and Hebrew. All these gloom and doom verses have a redemptive purpose that you can’t see in the English translation. That’s probably part of the reason why you believe what you believe. Why do you think Jesus talked so much about the reign of God being “hidden”?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 22, 2012 at 12:30 pm

                      Alice, there are many English translations and many translations in other languages that present the same message: come to Jesus now or burn in the Lake of Fire forever. You can’t hide behind translations.

                      If the Blood of Jesus hasn’t washed away your sins, you will suffer forever in eternal fire and torment. From cover to cover that is the message of God’s Holy Bible that you are constantly rejecting. Why the Flood? Why Sodom and Gomorrah? There is a bigger picture beyond them: the Lake of Fire. {Jude 7} Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. See vengence, see eternal, see fire in the verse?

                      Why, Alice, on even a broader scope are the results of sin in society destructive? They point to eternal destruction. Punitive, not remedial. History repeats itself over and over showing you it is NOT typically remedial.

                      Reality check.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 22, 2012 at 12:34 pm

                      Reality check:

                      Listen to the radio stories of true life conversions at http://www.unshackled.org

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 22, 2012 at 3:50 pm

                      Alice, almost all things are hidden from unbelievers.
                      Reality check.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 22, 2012 at 8:01 pm

                      Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. {John 14: 22 – 24}

                      He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2012 at 3:22 pm

                  Alice, you will surely burn in hell fire and brimstone, if you don’t turn to Jesus Christ, the SAVIOUR. Can I make it any clearer? Turn to Christ is so that you will not BURN.

                  The “rub” is He is Lord as well as Saviour and you can’t get the Saviour without the Lord part. There’s no fire insurance without yielding to His Lordship. He gets ALL of you or NONE of you. That’s His deal. Michelle sadly complained about Lordship Salvation, but she doesn’t know neither she nor anybody else knows how to run their own lives. Even beyond that He is Lord of all creation because He is the Creator. He has sovereign rights.

                  Listen to the radio stories of true life conversions at http://www.unshackled.org

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2012 at 1:46 am

            Listen to the stories of conversion to Abundant Life at http://www.unshackled.org

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 19, 2012 at 6:29 pm

    Mary and Alice, from the news: “I feel that it was all God’s plan, and for me to second guess it or judge it,” Zimmerman shook his head. Martin’s parents responded,
    “I really don’t understand what God he worships because it’s not the same God that I worship.” Zimmerman is correct and Martin’s parents have a false god just like a lot of your commenters on your site, Alice, with their preciously overly loving god. As has been previously written on your site God is the God of LIFE, especially the Abundant Life, which is the true life God designed for man, life in union with God, the Creator, which radically changed when Adam and Eve sinned. If God hadn’t clothed them by killing innocent lambs, neither of them would have had any kind of life with God. God has to kill people and animals and plants and bugs both large and small to maintain His creation in its fallen state. How do you people think Adam and Eve were clothed by God in the first place, any way? Think about it. Life begins at conception and conception is God ordained and given; so also God takes life, terminates it. God is the God of LIFE from the beginning to the end, including the end.

    It is morally wrong to deny God took a life. *** Political rightness has gone too far and made Americans a nation of LIARS protected by law. Michelle would like to suggest police action against me for telling God’s truth that gays must die. Soon any one quoting unfavorable Bible verses will be prosecuted in court for hate crimes. We are have avoid that on this site thanks to Alice’s censorship.

    • admin July 20, 2012 at 9:38 am

      My censorship, and you know this, because I have explained it over and over, is that comments (be the words your own or scriptures used a daggers) that are directed at an individual for the purpose of judging the intentions of his/her heart (something only God can/should do) are blocked. You can say what you want to say without being a spiritual bully about it. One example is calling people liars. Instead of calling the person a liar, challenge why you think their idea or comment or interpretation or whatever is FALSE. That way, you can scrutinize the person’s message all day long, to your heart’s content, but leave the scrutiny of their intentions to God. When I challenge your ideas, I don’t call you a liar. I subject myself to the same censorship as you, only you don’t know it, because I look over my comments before I hit “reply” to see whether I am playing God, to see whether my response is aimed at the person versus the person’s words/ideas. Then I used this nifty little key on the upper-right side of my keyboard labeled “delete”. Perhaps yours says “backspace”. Put it to use, Lanny. God, Himself, has instructed us that He is the only one who knows a person’s heart. When you pretend to know a person’s heart, judge the person on your inaccurate/incomplete “knowledge”, and pronounce your judgment in a reply comment, you are being a spiritual bully. Don’t you think that telling a person why you disagree with their view is more productive than name-calling and labeling the person? All that does is alienate people and distract from what really matters: information/views/interpretations on the table for the purpose of scrutiny, to let the truth stand and errors fall. The PERSON is not on the table for scrutiny. And just so you know, I take heat for letting you comment on the blog at all. I defend your right to comment regularly to people who either comment and feel bullied or don’t comment at all. I wouldn’t let them post blog comments that call you a liar or make other personal accusations/insults about you. Everyone’s comments are welcome, and I will never censor ideas because I disagree or don’t like them. I only remove personal accusations/insults in order to keep some semblance of peace between people who strongly disagree with one another.

    • Michelle July 31, 2012 at 10:34 am

      “Michelle would like to suggest police action against me for telling God’s truth that gays must die. Soon any one quoting unfavorable Bible verses will be prosecuted in court for hate crimes.”

      Yes. That’s exactly what I would do if I could trace you, I would report you to the authorities for death threat and hate crime, which is exactly what “Gay must die” is. And the police take hateful death threats very seriously. Those who want gay people or anyone else for that matter injured and dead are a danger to society and that’s always how terrorism starts, whether verbal, physical or spiritual. Just so you know, Lanny, thousands of gay people wish they were straight, they did as Christians told them to do, they prayed to God for years and even decades begging Him to cure them and make them straight and their prayer were never answered. And to top it at all, they are told that they deserve nothing but death and unless they can change a sexual orientation they didn’t even choose they will be eternally tortured. It’s because of people like you Lanny that many gay teenage boys and girls go out and commit suicide, because they are told that God will eternally torture them while their prayer go unanswered. Then you wonder why so many people walk away from Christianity, it’s because of people like you Lanny, who tell them that they are hated and must die for something they cannot change. People like you cause chronic manic suicidal depression. How many BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS prayed and begged God for years, even decades, to cure them of their addiction to cigarette or too much alcohol and their prayer went unanswered? So according to you Lanny, God will have people eternally tortured because He failed to answer their prayer and cure them. Who’s ultimately responsible for that? According to you it’s moral, just and sane to eternally torture a dog for being incapable to behave like a human being, or a persons for struggling with problems they can’t overcome no matter how hard they try and pray. People who believe that REALLY lack some morals. I’m an imperfect and faillible human being, but I would never torture any of my fellow man, much less forever, yet you claim that your god is perfect as well as better and more loving than me. If you believe your so-called freaking “perfect holy bible”, then keep in mind that He said, “My grace is sufficient” and that in many case, He will not remove the thorns. Be honest with yourself Mr. “perfect holy bible”.

      “God has to kill people and animals and plants and bugs both large and small to maintain His creation in its fallen state. How do you people think Adam and Eve were clothed by God in the first place, any way?”

      And you claim your god is perfect and loving? If your god really is like that he is all but perfect, loving and selfless and he’s rather’s powerless if all he can do is kill and destroy his creations. You and your “perfect holy bible” turn more people into atheists than Richard Dawkins did. I say it like it is. No one can accuse me of not being honest…

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2012 at 4:16 pm

        No one can accuse me of not being honest, but I can, Michelle. It is not being honest for you to write, “That’s exactly what I would do if I could trace you” when all you have to do is Google search Lanny A. Eichert and you know from my posts I reside in Utah and my dead wife’s name was Deborah and there aren’t any others by our names in the state. Even my recent posts to this web site show up in that Google search, so you can’t miss me. You have no excuse for not doing “exactly what (you) would do” unless you’ve never used Google search before. I would remind you though, “Gays must die” was always put in the context of the death penalty applied by a civil government agency. How? by doing what the sane Ukrainian government is seeking: to pass legislation making deviant sexuality absolutely illegal, criminal, and punishable. That also includes pro-gay propoganda.

        Regarding you claim of gay prayers not answered: most prayers are insincere and God is not obligated to anyone. You reap what you sow, or as is said today, you made your own bed, so lay in it. In other words at the first deviant sexual temptation, run away before it gets a hold on you. It is still your choice, no one was born deviant, and they can “go straight” if their will is strong enough to really want it.

        BTW God doesn’t give thorns contrary to His literal perfect Holy Bible, so see Leviticus 20: 13, and verses 9 – 16 are good death penalty reading and should be legislated in America as is being done in the Ukraine. Praise God for the sanity of Chick-fil-A’ and the Ukraine !!! Liberal christianity has shown its stripe is not Christian, so you can’t believe a name.

        • Michelle August 3, 2012 at 3:03 am

          “Regarding you claim of gay prayers not answered: most prayers are insincere and God is not obligated to anyone.”

          That’s your “god”, Lanny. A “god” who “is not obligated to anyone” but who will torture 99% of mankind. And most prayer are extremely sincere, I have known tons of people who would have done anything to overcome their vices and problems and no matter hard they try, they failed. That includes myself who tried hundreds of times very hard to quit smoking with all the will I could muster and failed everytime. You believe in a “god” who is a total failure (doesn’t answer most prayer and created beings who cannot overcome their vices and weaknesses on their own) yet in the end torture his failed creations for failing them. ***, Lanny.

        • Michelle August 3, 2012 at 3:15 am

          “they can “go straight” if their will is strong enough to really want it.”

          Do you realize how stupid that sounds? If strong will could turn them straight they wouldn’t go out and commit suicide. It’s because of people like you that they kill themselves. Because they are told they are hated and must die for something they can’t change no matter how much they will it and pray for it. And they are mocked, stigmatized, ridiculed and shunned wherever they go. Gay people didn’t choose to be gay anymore than straight people chose to be straight or anymore than a child born from a drug-addict mother chose to be born craving drugs. No one deserve to be killed or tortured for problems they cannot overcome, not ever. Your stupid and sadistic solution is murder and eternal torture, not compassion and love. *** Lanny and you promote evil actions instead of good ones.

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 19, 2012 at 9:29 pm

    Alice, your blog’s last paragraph’s bold lettered: I can never return to … reveals a still unresolved bitterness that continues to consume you and holds you captive. The reason why is because you haven’t recognized the truth of the Remnant Church. You’re venting your bitterness on all the false “denominational churches” of the devil’s ace trumph which is religion. You have never found true Christianity, true institutional Christianity, which is to be found in Fundamentalism. You cannot even tell the false from the true since you have never yet found the true nor known it for a standard by which to make judgments of truth. You’re just blowing a lot of frustrational smoke.

    He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. {Revelation 22: 11} Relax and leave them be. God has for now.

    In your present state of mind you’re a cancer everywhere and don’t know how to avoid it. You will remain that way until you submit to the perfect literal Holy Bible’s Christ. College community Independant Fundamental Bible churches will help you when you stop kicking and screaming and settle into a teachable frame of mind.

    • Michelle July 31, 2012 at 11:40 am

      “In your present state of mind you’re a cancer everywhere and don’t know how to avoid it. You will remain that way until you submit to the perfect literal Holy Bible’s Christ. College community Independant Fundamental Bible churches will help you when you stop kicking and screaming and settle into a teachable frame of mind.”

      *** she doesn’t spew hate and the maniacal theology that you do. And I think that now, more than ever, is the time to kick and scream against torturing-and-murdering-history theology as she says because if we don’t we will only continue “putting band-aids on a gushing wound, bleeding out and dying,” thanks to Fundamentalism. Fundamentalism and their hideous false doctrine of eternal damnation is a poison for the soul and the main reason why so many people’s world is caving in and their faith dying. Fundamentalists are spiritual murderers and toxic bullies who cause many suicides and mental problems. Fundamentalism is the great evil, the spiritual plague, followed by Judaist-gutting-and-bleeding theology. I curse and damn religion and Alice is right to expose all the shit in it and when she’s done doing that, there will hardly be anything left to say about religion because that’s what religion is, a pile of shit and sadly, most of the world, most people are still drowning deep in that shit, more than ever. But the vast majority of those who “are putting band-aids on a gushing wound, bleeding out and dying” put on a mask on, tape a phony platic smile to their faces and pretend that all is sunshine and daisies, in other words they are fake and pretenders because they buy into the lie that getting mad and being honest is “wrong” and “sinful” so they continue to pretend to be someone that they are not or that they feel a certain way when they are really not. If God and Christians can’t handle anger and honesty than they BOTH have some maturing to do and they are obviously not ready for true, open, transparent, intimate relationship. I say it like it is. You can think whatever you want Lanny. But very few people if they were honest with themselves would say that they are looking for a fake, phony, dishonest relationship that is all about pretense, pretending to be other than you are or feeling other than how you feel. So in the end it’s all about pretense! No teaching, no discovery, nothing different or off the beaten path and no honesty or transparency. Most Christians have become well versed and experts in the art of hypocrisy and pretense. They get up every morning, put on their game face and pretend that all is sunshine and daisies, that they are not mad at God, that they don’t hurt, that they don’t have problems, telling everyone else that to claim otherwise is “wrong” and “sinful”. The game face, the one they worked so hard to get, they became that years ago. They have become the new poster boys for fake and phony. How do they live with themselves? Well to “hell” with it. To *ucking “hell” with it. If most Christians are content with being big, fat hypocrites, I am not. I am mad at God, I’m sick of this *ucked up world and I hate religion and I hate the hate that you spew Lanny and that some people are born so disfigured or disformed or in such dire poverty or in such abusive homes that they hardly if ever make it in life. I am sick of all that *ucked up shit and I say it like it is. Like it, don’t like it, that’s up to you folks. Not being hard, just being honest. But honesty is not appreciate in the Christian world. Yes, I am angry! And maybe if Christians allowed themselves to be angry they could put an end to injustice and innocent suffering out there, maybe they would finally do something for all these poor people who struggle alone with problems and vices that they never seem to overcome instead of remaining inactive or condemning them to a place of torture. So, is anyone honest enough on that blog to comment on this post with actual honesty?

      • admin July 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm

        “If God… can’t handle anger and honesty…” I believe He can. If He couldn’t, you would know it by now.

      • Lanny A. Eichert July 31, 2012 at 5:39 pm

        Fundamentalists … cause many suicides and mental problems, Michelle, is just your way of shifting the real blame from the truly responsible person. You’ve got victim mentality and refusal to accept your own responsibility. Bullies will always exist because there are always people who must in themselves take control and go beyond the reasonable limit for self elevation because they think more highly of themselves than they ought. That’s what the sin of pride does to some people since Adam and Eve wanted to be as God, knowing good and evil, which was not God’s intended design for them. We were created to experientially know only the good and be experientially ignorant of evil. They had already intellectually known what was evil, because God told them and they were to trust that education and not seek experiential knowledge.

        Don’t judge Fundamentalists by what you see of institutional christian liberals. I’ve many times tried to show how liberals are not Christian by Biblical standards. Fundamentalists have the real joy that comes from knowing their sins, past, present, and future, are all, every one, forgiven so they will never face the Final Judgment and Lake of Fire. That freedom motivates an evangelistic fervor of love to tell others they too can be unshackled from their sins to love everybody for whom Jesus died. Love then becomes true and experiential while hate returns to God’s intended intellectual hatred of evil based in trusting what God educated us in His literal perfect Holy Bible in order for us to abstain from all appearances of evil. Hear true stories of conversion to Abundant Life at http://www.unshackled.org

        Biblical Christians {another way of saying Fundamentalists} have real joy because they have learned to trust and submit to God’s sovereign plan for their individual lives. Don’t confuse happiness for joy. Christians may at times be momentarily perplexed or even saddened, but they are committed to trusting God is always at work in their lives making everything work to the glory of God. That trust brings back the joy of their salvation because it refocuses their attention upon God and away from circumstances. God is the dynamic of Christian living. Jesus overcame the world and so do Christians by faith in Christ, never faith in anything happening in this changing world, especially women’s rights, Alice, and certainly not gay rights.

        • Michelle August 3, 2012 at 5:12 am

          “Don’t judge Fundamentalists by what you see of institutional christian liberals. I’ve many times tried to show how liberals are not Christian by Biblical standards. Fundamentalists have the real joy that comes from knowing their sins, past, present, and future, are all, every one, forgiven so they will never face the Final Judgment and Lake of Fire. That freedom motivates an evangelistic fervor of love to tell others they too can be unshackled from their sins to love everybody for whom Jesus died. Love then becomes true and experiential while hate returns to God’s intended intellectual hatred of evil based in trusting what God educated us in His literal perfect Holy Bible in order for us to abstain from all appearances of evil.”

          Everytime I see you try to paint a nice picture of fundamentalism, it makes me want to vomit. Just so you know Lanny, I judge fundamentalists (or rather fundamentalism) by what I have seen institutional christian fundamentalists because I’ve been only in fundamentalist churches. Fundamentalism is evil, toxic and abusive. I would rather hang out with liberal christians, people of other faith or even atheists than hang out with fundamentalists and that is because liberal christians and people of other faith show more love, compassion and humanity than fundamentalist christians who are fearmongers, haters, mysogynists, etc.

          I sometimes stand more atheism than the “so called churchgoers, Christ loving fundamentalist.” Sadly but true more atheists will help their brother man much faster than many Christians. There may be a few good Christians only if I can count by hands. Many Christians will see a person in the worst crisises, hardship, and agony in their life and many will walk away and say, let God deal with it. Most Christians, *** think they are better and more moral than the rest of mankind just cuz they’re christians and that all non-christians are rotten to the core. But the matter of the fact is that christians aren’t any better, they have committed all kinds of atrocities throughout history against their fellow men and people of other faith, blowing up non-believers who wouldn’t convert, killing so-called “heretics” and burning women in their sexist hatred that they cunningly tortured to extort so-called confession of witchcraft. And many people including myself can testify that the very few people who showed them real compassion and kindness were non-christians, that most christians, especially fundamentalists paint as “wretched”, “immoral” or “demonic”. Atheists and most liberal christians don’t threaten their fellow men with eternal torture and they care more about the sick and the poor than many christians I’ve known or met.

          Many fundamentalists don’t take their doctrine of eternal damnation seriously because if they did, they would spend EVERY SECOND of their lives begging people on their hands and knees to “get saved” or to “choose” Christ instead of playing golf, going on vacation or chatting with pastor so and so about any and every subject… or they would need to go and oick out their own rooms in the mental hospital.

          As a Universalist said, “It was extremely frustrating and disappointing to find that most of the Christians I was in contact with did not share the burden for souls that seemed to me to be mandatory if in fact the teaching of Hell as taught by the church and the King James Bible was true. Instead of going out into the community to try to save a few doomed souls, we would often go to a nice restaurant to listen to the evangelist tell his favorite war stories while supposedly people all around us were dropping into the fiery pit. To me, it seemed that if the teaching of Hell was real, we, Christians, were not taking it seriously. And if WE weren’t taking it seriously, how could we expect those we wanted to influence take it seriously themselves?”

          That’s always how it goes, total hypocrisy and manipulation, to terrorize people into submission or get their money into the tithing plate. Those who have studied the original languages of the bible knows there not a single mention of endless punishment. Fundamentalism is being exposed for it really is. It’s not only evil, abusive and toxic, it leads to utter hypocrisy.

          He adds, “If there were a Hell or place of eternal punishment, our actions in our communities surely didn’t show it. Our belief in Hell was NOT made manifest by our actions. We sinned just like those sinners we were trying to save. Oh, maybe for most of us, it wasn’t the same kind of sins. Maybe we didn’t drink, cuss, or smoke anymore, but boy we were experts in backbiting, slander, gossip, self-righteousness, pride, jealousy, and a host of other Biblical sins. How was it that we who were supposed to know better and supposedly had the Holy Spirit to help us lead a Holy life could sin and get away with it while those who were “slaves to sin” and had NO power to stop sinning were going to be endlessly tortured for theirs? This seemed a bit hypocritical.

          I finally personally concluded we, Christians, including myself, WERE a bunch of hypocrites. We “said” but did not do. We condemned while doing the very same things we condemned others for. The more I looked at us while reading the Bible, the more we looked like the Pharisees who were Jesus’ enemies–and I remembered what Jesus thought of the Pharisees and the many warnings He gave them. As a matter of fact, almost every time my King James put the word “Hell” into Jesus’ mouth, He was always speaking to the religious people, NOT the street sinner. (Something to think about, isn’t it?)

          I finally became so disgusted with our poor example and lack of concern for the lost that I asked God to take me out of this world. I was tired of the hypocrisy. I was worn out. Burned out. It seemed to me that if anyone deserved to go to Hell, it was us Christians for our hypocrisy and lack of concern for the lost.

          God answered my prayer not by killing me, but killing a lot of “traditional teaching” I had swallowed which did NOT come from Him NOR from the Bible in its original languages. He had someone give me a handful of booklets dealing with a handful of key words in the Bible. According to this author, these words were MIStranslated in many of the leading “selling” English Bible translations. After reading these booklets, I made an extensive search at various seminaries to see if in fact what this author was saying was true. It was true!!”

          Here are a few testimonies:

          “Interesting that its usually the same group of conservative Christians who say “all life is sacred” (anti-abortion) yet turn around and say “you’re a filthy rotten disgusting sinner who deserves nothing but punishment from now till the end of time.”

          “I was tortured to the point of suicide, because I could not resolve in myself how to love a God who would torment or annihilate my fellow human beings who got to the end without ‘passing the test’ by choosing God! I had “God cannot violate our ‘free will'” rammed down my throat and it was making me sick and I just wanted to die!

          I kept thinking about my two sons. Not about them being without their mother – because at the time I was so tortured I was making life hell for my family, but I kept thinking about how much I have loved them since before they were born, how much these two lives meant to me, how precious they are, warts and all! And I kept thinking “What kind of God would I be entrusting them to if I go?” And it broke my heart. I wept and wept every time this thought overwhelmed me, because I hadn’t yet found anyone who believed and taught God, the saviour of all.

          I was SO ANGRY, that I had to turn my children over to this God who would torment them or annihilate them forever IF THEY FAILED!”

          “I had a nervous breakdown too. Actually, two of them – the first one at 21 (not hospitalized) and the second one at 31 (hospitalized) both due to a constant dread that my loved ones were going to spend eternity in hell because they were not “born again.” (What a horrible way to live, thanks to “traditional church.”)”

          “Please keep in mind that I strongly suspect your website may have prevented my own suicide, and more likely prevented me from becoming completely insane from the terror and fear of hell.”

          “I went to the Lord in my agony of spirit and told Him that if there was such a place where people will eternally be tormented and tortured, than I asked Him to PLEASE TAKE ME INSTEAD OF MY BOYS. (I have 3 sons)

          I cried out to Him over a period of about a week concerning this and I was as honest about this as I could ever be. I mean, I really would VERY GLADLY go to this abominable place for eternity than see my precious, deeply loved sons go. I would take their place with NO hesitation!

          So, in my agony, I reached out to my trusty computer and typed in “hell.” Lo and behold, it brings me to a paper entitled “Can This Be True” and other works by J. Preston Eby.

          Well, I couldn’t believe my eyes! As I read I had to stop from time to time because of the tears and gut sobs of incredulity intermixed with surprising bursts of laughter.

          I kind of felt a little insane. I mean, could this really be true?!

          Could it be, Lord, could it be? My world had been rocked violently. It seemed as if the Lord was saying to me, “How do you think you can love your sons more than I do?”

          “I also had a brief crisis when [I’m catholic] a priest asked me to give catechism to a few adults before they could commune. I read the literature from the Vatican about God’s plan to throw all non-believers, non-Catholic Christians, etc. into eternal hellfire. After that I had a nervous breakdown IN mass!

          I politely and quietly left, and since then have become a firm Universalist in my heart. How could God send an individual to ETERNAL hell after only 80 years of earthly life? Justice? I can’t fathom it.

          And what about God’s accountability…didn’t He make us? Is He then unable to remedy original sin? Of course He can – that is why Jesus said “If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me (John 12:32).” Surely, Christ is the good shepherd and will save all men. There are too many ambitious people out there using the name of Jesus to make money and manipulate and control others by fear for their own welfare.”

          “Another interesting thing is that I married an unbeliever. At the time I completely believed that my husband was going to Hell if he died in unbelief. It was like I was trying to defy God in a way by showing Him that I could fall in love with a hellion so why can’t God do the same. I thought – Doesn’t He loved these outcast sinners?

          Then…….to top it all off………..I wanted a child even though I believed that there was a good chance my child could grow up to become an unbeliever. This caused me much grief, and eventually led me to searching for answers to all the questions I had.”

          “I embraced the joy of universal salvation about two and a half years ago, when I found out for the first time in my life that there actually are other people in the world who believe it and have for a very long time. It was the same day that I was going to hang myself in the garage that I found websites that talked about universal salvation.”

          Thanks, Rodger, for sharing your thoughts here and in other places on the web. I was one of your “silent readers” that you mentioned two and a half years ago the afternoon I nearly ended my life.”

          “Strange how you become like the one you worship. If you worship a god who excludes those who don’t measure up, then you are quick to cut off those who you think are wrong. That was their goal ……..to cut you off. I understand, as I used to be one of “them”. But as you say, it is just not their time to “see” yet.

          By the way, I also lost much of my sanity for many years because of the eternal torment teaching. I lived in the Christian “mainstream” for most of my adult life. In the last six months I have had my eyes opened to the true Gospel.”

          “I used to walk around in a daze… convinced that almost every person around me was going to hell. I found that utterly horrifying – and that led to my huge breakdown. According to *** ****, who spent time in a mental institution, a HUGE percentage of people in those places are Christians who love Jesus with all their heart – but simply cannot reconcile the God of love with the God of eternal Hell Fire. God bless brother!”

          “I know what you mean about eternal torment getting you down…I was there. If it should prove to be true…I will need to go and pick out my own room in the mental hospital…….it would take some powerful drugs to numb my “big heart” . Wonder where that “big heart” came from…could it be the image of my creator????”

          “I remember my innocence about Him being shattered when a missionary came to our church and showed us slides of African children, children just like me but half a world away, and the missionary said that these children and others like them would go to an ever-burning hell if they didn’t hear about Jesus.

          As a little girl I didn’t have the adult vocabulary or knowledge of the theology that had spawned this remark, but from that day on I felt sick in my soul for what was ripped from me.

          When I was contemplating taking my life a couple of years ago, I kept thinking about what kind of God I would be leaving my two precious sons in the care of.

          What would He do to these precious lives I had brought into world? What kind of God were they expected to love?

          I know people who love the God who will torment people forever. I know people who love the God who will annihilate people into oblivion forever.

          I had come to the point in my life where I could no longer contemplate loving either of those Gods, neither in this life nor in eternity.

          I felt angry and paralyzed that I had to give over the ones I loved more than myself into the hands of someone who would treat them this way. And in the depths of my soul I extended that to all human beings. I had to. It DOES matter what kind of God we are expected to love.”

          “I have not suffered a nervous breakdown, but I have suffered from severe anger and depression because of the teachings of an “eternal” hell and suffering. I also found myself unable to truly love or respect a god that could send anyone to such a place. It has been said also that “we send ourselves to hell” but how can that be, if God is totally sovereign and in total control? This web site is a blessing. Thank you for spreading the True Good News. May you be blessed always.”

          “Belief in eternal torment is partially to blame for a severe anxiety disorder I have suffered since age 17.

          I have seen testimonies of people that have gone nearly or completely insane due to this horrible teaching. Don’t let it happen to you. Explore the wonderful truths of the salvation of all mankind found in properly translated Bibles. Learn what Christ meant when He said on the Tree of Crucifixion, “It is finished.”

          “Love doesn’t threaten, or give deadlines or ultimatums; Love “suffers long, and is kind … thinks no evil”.

          “The doctrine of eternal damnation has driven many soft-hearted souls into insane asylums and suicide. History tells us that those evangelists who were most skilled at dangling the audience over the tormenting flames sometimes drove some in the audience to kill themselves. There is the fruit of the doctrine of eternal torment, death!”

          “The darkest doctrine ever devised by men was that of an “eternal suffering” for the billions of souls that die lost without Christ. Like wolves among the sheep, carnally-minded men within the church system found it very effective to use the fear of an unending hell to control the masses that enter their religion. Unfortunately this doctrine has remained at large in Christianity as a whole.”

          “As I have mentioned many times in my journal, I, Rodger Tutt, had a complete nervous breakdown over my inability to love or respect an endless – hell god. My breakdown was caused by my fear of what God might do to me since I was unable to love or respect Him.

          One of the great comforts that helped me to recover was learning that many other people have suffered with the same problem. The following quote is from THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL HELL TORMENTS OVERTHROWN by Samuel Richardson, edited by Thomas Whittemore, and published by him in 1833. On page 85, Whittemore says that Richardson wrote this book nearly 200 years before 1833.

          First of all, there is what Richardson wrote nearly 200 years before 1833:

          “The doctrine of endless hell torments hath caused many to murder themselves, taking away their own lives by poison, stabbing, drowning, hanging, strangling, and shooting themselves, casting themselves out of windows, and from high places, to break their necks and by other kinds of death, that they might not live to increase their sin, and increase their torments in hell.”

          Now here is what Whittemore the editor, wrote at the bottom of the page nearly 200 years later in 1833:

          “Here we see the same dreadful effects attended the doctrine of endless misery nearly 200 years ago which attend it now. It was then the cause of anxiety, despair, and suicide, as we suppose it always was before, where fully believed, and as we know it has been of late years. Let posterity know, that within the last ten years, there have been a large number of suicides, which must be attributed to the doctrine of endless torment. That doctrine makes men melancholy; it drives them to despair; they know not what to do; and they sever the brittle thread, Fathers and Mothers, in repeated instances in the United States, have murdered their children, lest they should grow up, and commit sin, and be damned. Can a doctrine which produces such dreadful consequences be the doctrine of God?” End of Quote.

          Note that the victims of this theology found no consolation in the Christian gospel. This was my problem too! The question I kept asking myself was, “How can I find comfort in the Christian Gospel when I can’t even love or respect it’s God?” (Endquote.)”

          http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

          Don’t even try to paint a nice picture of fundamentalism. Fundamentalism is evil, abusive and toxic. Fundamentalism is terrorism and fundamentalism kills, it is the great evil and that’s why Universalists expose and oppose it. It destroys the innocence of little children, it has caused billions to go insane and murder themselves or their little children. Fundamentalism is utter hypocrisy, fundamentalists are hypocrites who condemn abortion, homosexuality and murder and yet tell people that God is gonna do a million times worse to them, their children and their fellow men and that for ever and ever. You can’t get any more hypocritical than that. They quote “love your enemies” yet they teach that God will eternally torture His. They quote “love doesn’t keep a record of wrongs” yet they teach people that God will never get over even one wrong should their hearts cease to beat, that this “childish” (and that’s an insult to children) will stamp his foot and torture his toys forever, toys that he CHOSE to create and take outside of the box. Fundamentalism is evil, vile, disgusting and it has to be destroyed…

        • Michelle August 3, 2012 at 6:44 am

          “Jesus overcame the world and so do Christians by faith in Christ, never faith in anything happening in this changing world, especially women’s rights, Alice, and certainly not gay rights.”

          “Especially women’s rights”, says the male-domination mysogynist fundamentalist christians who deny women the right to gender equality in all aspects of life including marriage as well as the right to take their own decisions and think for themselves. If people read the RED LETTERS from start to finish, they will find out that Jesus never taught or preached male/husband domination and female/wife submission. Some women have been brainwashed to be so submissive that they had half of their faces blown off by abusive husbands and ended up in a coma because the only advice pastor so and so could give them was to submit. They were even told that to report their abusive husbands to the police was a sin and a sign of unforgiveness. What bullshit. Too many women have suffered in silence and dearly paid for it. Most Fundamentalist christians still regard women as inferior beings who should be silent and abundantly spanked, as less than human beings. Fundamentalism is not only terrorism, it’s bronze age and oppressive bigotry. Love and equality cannot exist in fundamentalism, fundamentalism is the cancer and gangrene of humanity, it has to be destroyed and ended…

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 3, 2012 at 7:28 pm

          Michelle, interesting reading, but people suffer in these contexts because THEY choose to suffer and they kill themselves because THEY choose to do so. They are simply being just self absorbed. They’ve withdrawn into themselves and blame others as the cause instead of taking responsibility unto themselves which they stubbornly refused to do. They’ve caused their own problem, so don’t go blaming Fundamental Christianity. Eternal Torment is not the root cause, but the refusal to reckon with the solution, Jesus Christ, is. They die refusing to search for Him with all their heart. You should know plenty of Scripture verses in which God promises to be found by the seeker who searches with his whole heart. Hear real stories @ http://www.unshackled.org

          • Michelle August 6, 2012 at 11:18 pm

            “Michelle, interesting reading, but people suffer in these contexts because THEY choose to suffer and they kill themselves because THEY choose to do so. They are simply being just self absorbed.”

            Self-absorbed, my *utt. They care way more about their children and loved ones than they care about themselves. They are so loving and selfless in fact that it’s the thought of their loved ones and children suffering forever that drives them to insanity and suicide. ***no one choose to be stuck with problems that they can’t overcome no matter how hard they try. You too have vices, weaknesses and problems just like every human being and you hypocritically condemn others for theirs. I don’t see you condemning yourself to eternal torture, just like every fundamentalists you could care less about the suffering and problems of others. You’re the one who is *** or you would never say that people choose to suffer. They didn’t choose to suffer any more than they chose to be born into this world with a sin nature. People weren’t given a choice between being born into this world with a sin nature or being born into this world without a sin nature. So much for the false doctrine of free will. People didn’t choose to be born with that nature in a world of evil, sin and death. You’re no better than anyone else, Lanny. Those who deserve correction are in fact those who are unconcerned and condemning and do nothing to help others overcome their problems. And everyone will die in imperfection still struggling with some problems because no one ever arrived at perfection this side of the grave. So according to your logic, all of mankind would have to be tortured forever because God alone is without imperfections and problems. That’s the stupid doctrine of fundamentalism, that if you die with so much as one unconfessed sin you will be tortured forever, the lie of absolute perfection. Fundamentalists think they’re God. That’s the stupid and hideous doctrine of fundamentalism, that everyone deserve endless torture for a few mistakes committed in a short mortal lives and this regardless of the gravity or number of faults, when even we humans fit the correction to the crime. It’s that abominable, satanic false doctrine of eternal damnation that causes these people to develop severe mental illness and drive them to kill themselves. It’s the thought that people that they love a hundred times more than themselves suffering forever that drives them to insanity and suicide. Self-absorbed people wouldn’t give a damn about what happens to their fellow men, ***. While you condemn others you don’t look at your own vices, weaknesses and mistakes. The accuser must be thrilled when he sees you accusing and condemning your fellow men. According to you, people deserve hate and torture for struggling with problems that they can’t overcome. *** that you think everyone deserves the worse but you and your fundy pals who worship the god of terrorism, partiality and torture that you hypocritically claim to love but that millions can never respect or love because they are honest with themselves and because they love their children, loved ones and fellow men way too much to be capable to ever bring themselves to respect, much less love. And that is what drives them to insanity and suicide. Because of that hideous and satanic lie of eternal damnation and fundamentalism.

            “If my daughter is in Hell because she did not get “born again” then I’d rather go to Hell and be with her than to be with your God because there would be more love in Hell than near your vindictive God.”

            “How can you say burning someone alive forever is “just” or “fair” for everyone who hasn’t accepted Jesus Christ? Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime. According to you, Christians, people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not. Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured. You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice–this is insanity!”

            “If the wages of sin is eternal punishment in Hell, then Jesus would have to be eternally punished if in fact He died for my sins. But the Bible says the wages of sin is death which is exactly what Jesus did–died. So how can you say people will be eternally tortured in Hell? Is Jesus presently being eternally tortured in place of those who accepted Him as Lord?”

            “Infinite punishment for finite crimes just doesn’t seem just.”

            “I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!”

            “We can “feign” worship of such a god for fear of being endlessly burned ourselves should this god turn on us also, but we cannot honestly worship such a fiend with integrity. We must become hypocrites in order to pretend to worship such a fiend.”

            “Recently I watched a movie entitled “Inherit the Wind” which dealt with the subject of whether evolution could be taught in public schools. Prior to the trial, a young boy the young science teacher was very fond of and was mentoring drowned. At the boy’s funeral, some Hell-fire fundamentalists talked about how this boy was rotting in Hell because he wasn’t “saved” before he drowned. The words of these fundamentalists turned this science teacher away from the Truth towards the lie of evolution. There are countless atheists and agnostics in the world who have been turned aside from seeking God because of this greatest of lies.”

            ***the cause of most insanity and suicide. ***I hate and loathe myself from time to time because I ***did the same thing in my ignorance. But you, you have no excuse. You have internet access, I didn’t. You have access to the original languages of the bible, I didn’t. You have access to the tool and material, I didn’t. You have people all around you who preached the true message to you and told you to look it up and study it for yourself, I never had anyone to tell me about the true gospel for over 25 years. ***all those fearmongering preachers. They censor, suppress and oppress because they know that if and when people find out the truth about eternal damnation being a false doctrine, they will leave the religious system and they will lose church memberships, money and power, and eventually they will lose their jobs, the churches will close their doors and the religious system will crumble. That why those who don’t believe that false doctrine and preach the truth are kicked out of church and the congregation are told a bunch of lies about those who were kicked out of church by the leaders, because the truth is a threat to the church leaders. More and more people come out of the religious system altogether and they’d rather die than step into a church again. Some prefer to gather in their houses just like the first apostles did. Fundamentalism is being expose for what it really is, it destroys the innocence of little children and it causes nothing but hypocrisy, condemnation, harm, insanity and death. It sends thousands men, women and children to mental hospitals or kill them. Fundamentalism is the great evil and it must be ended…

            [Note from comment moderator: It’s a shame that you didn’t frame your words differently so that you oppose the doctrine instead of personal comments about Lanny, because now there’s “***” instead of useful information. You can say what you need to say without name-calling and judgments about Lanny’s intentions or character. It is possible to do, and I am sure that if you take time to read over your comments and ask yourself whether your comment is a dagger aimed at the person or if it is opposition to an idea, then you will start to see the difference. You can self-edit so that your comment doesn’t end up looking like swiss cheese. Feel free to email me if you want help reframing your words so that they are not attacking the person. You can still say everything you need to say, it just takes it little bit of extra effort.]

            • Michelle August 7, 2012 at 11:51 pm

              “[Note from comment moderator: It’s a shame that you didn’t frame your words differently so that you oppose the doctrine instead of personal comments about Lanny, because now there’s “***” instead of useful information. You can say what you need to say without name-calling and judgments about Lanny’s intentions or character. It is possible to do, and I am sure that if you take time to read over your comments and ask yourself whether your comment is a dagger aimed at the person or if it is opposition to an idea, then you will start to see the difference. You can self-edit so that your comment doesn’t end up looking like swiss cheese. Feel free to email me if you want help reframing your words so that they are not attacking the person. You can still say everything you need to say, it just takes it little bit of extra effort.]”

              Name calling? Since when is “self-absorbed” and “causing people to go insane and commit suicide” name-calling? Funnily enough you call me the same thing in a recent message, but when I point out that Lanny *** you censor me. Hypocrisy and double-talk, Alice? If calling me that is not attacking my character, why would it be attacking his character? You give yourselves liberties with me but censor me when I say the same thing. Attacking his person? It’s time for him to look at what he has done and is still doing and all the harm and damage that he causes. All you ever do Alice is censor me and give more power to evil, meanwhile parents keep more innocent little children are murdered by their parents because of what Lanny spew and preach. How many innocent kids and people will die before you say, “never again” and take actions to expose *** Lanny so the whole world can see the harm that they cause? But I guess you don’t want his actions and his hate exposed into the light. I guess you don’t want all these lives to be spared. Lanny hates his fellow men and wants them to suffer forever because he thinks they totally deserve eternal torture [Note from blog moderator: Because Lanny has written comments that demonstrate you are not making character judgments in what you write but repeating what Lanny has claimed is true of himself, I’ve not omitted your comment here.] And if you’re not willing to expose his ***, his hate, his evil speeches of “people choose to suffer and they had it coming”, his death threats that “gays must die”, that *** how people feel about their precious children and loved ones being endlessly tortured and that *** how much damage he causes when he preach that stuff to unstable parents, I am, but you turn against me and censor me just giving evil more power. You have two choices, Alice. Either you side with good or you side with evil. Censoring those who expose people like Lanny and covering for those who cause insanity, death and the murder of little kids is siding with evil. I don’t think you’re getting it, Alice. If you’re not willing to do whatever it takes expose and evil then you might as well join it. And it’s gonna cost you everything, Alice. Everything. The question is, are you ready to give up everything to oppose and eliminate evil? Do you hate evil enough to give up everything and do what it takes to oppose and eliminate it? Because if you aren’t, if you continue to censor those who expose people like Lanny who cause so much insanity and death and religious child abuse, if you continue to censor every statements on how Fundamentalists come to steal (the innocence of children), kill and destroy doing the Devil’s bidding and cause nothing but utter ruin, then you are not dedicated to eliminate all darkness and evil from this world, you are not dedicated to being a warrior of light. But I’m not even gonna be surprised if you totally ignore this post and even censor 99% of it. Is it that I can’t trust and count on anyone to be with me where eliminating darkness and evil is concerned, exposing the harm and death perpetrated by sadistic fundamentalists and saving the lives of hundreds of innocent kids murdered by their parents so they wouldn’t end up in a mythical torture chamber? Is it that I’m totally on my own because no one else is willing to to accept that it will cost them everything, even so-called “friends”? Ponder all this and make a decision as to whether you’re with me on this or not. If universalists decided to REALLY take actions to expose these abusive preachers and their evil deeds all over the Internet, we could avoid much insanity, abuse, death and innocent suffering cause by the satanic lie of eternal damnation. The other day, you practically accused me to my face of “when was the last time you got off your computer chair and do something, maybe you did but” and when I’m willing to take actions, you’re the one who do nothing and even get in the way by censoring me and covering for him when I attempt to put him face to face with his actions and expose his evil attitude toward suffering abuse victims. If you censor every statement concerning a person’s character then that person can never be exposed because all you have is indirrect and unclear statements and when you censor every statement concerning a person’s character you prevent others from exposing his actions all over the Internet that others might expose them in turn and that people know how much they endanger their kids if them allow them anywhere near people like him. Our duty as Christians is to protect people from harm and evil and oppose the darkness that targets them. If you choose to censor 99% of this post what does that say about how much you care for your fellow human beings out there? If you’re unwilling to discuss this either here or on youtube then don’t claim that you want the end of evil…

              • admin August 8, 2012 at 9:48 pm

                Michelle, now that I know you are going to take private conversations and use them against me in a public forum, I will no longer participate in private conversations with you – at least not until I feel like I can trust you. This is what I wrote: “Almost every message you send is self-centered in one way or another. When I say self-centered, I don’t mean prideful…” For now, I prefer to have public conversations. For the record, I did not call you self-centered, I called your messages self-centered. If you would like me to post the entire unedited conversation, I will, but I would never do that without permission, because it was a PRIVATE conversation.

                Regarding Lanny – I think he does a fine job of exposing himself, even when I omit the personal insults. I don’t understand your argument, though, because how would you even know about (I quote you here, just as I quoted you in the get-off-your-computer-chair comment…)”his hate, his evil speeches of ‘people choose to suffer and they had it coming’, his death threats that ‘gays must die'” etc. How would you even be aware of this unless he exposed it himself? I already told you that the only censoring that I (RELUCTANTLY) do is when a commenter makes personal character judgments or name-calling that is aimed at the person instead of the person’s message.

                Trust God, Michelle, and you will find comfort, even in the valley of the shadow of death.

                • Michelle August 10, 2012 at 7:23 pm

                  “Michelle, now that I know you are going to take private conversations and use them against me in a public forum, I will no longer participate in private conversations with you – at least not until I feel like I can trust you. This is what I wrote: “Almost every message you send is self-centered in one way or another. When I say self-centered, I don’t mean prideful…” For now, I prefer to have public conversations. For the record, I did not call you self-centered, I called your messages self-centered. If you would like me to post the entire unedited conversation, I will, but I would never do that without permission, because it was a PRIVATE conversation.”

                  First of all, you never forbid me to mention our conversations. If you didn’t want me to mention them, then you should have told me so. People don’t say anything then they have the nerve to blame me because they ommitted something or weren’t being clear. Secondly, what about MY TRUST? I extended my fragile trust to you as I did some other Christians and just like them you broke it, I came to you pleading and begging for help and you totally ignored me or told me that you wouldn’t help with the material I’m attempting to undertstand. What I find inhumane and cruel is people like you how dare to accuse me of breaking their trust when they did it to me first and to accuse of breaking their trust for something they didn’t even told me not to do or didn’t bother being clear about. And just so you know Alice, a disabled person like happen to have a hard time guessing and understanding communication, socializing and what people have a problem with. You attacked me for copying and pasting, using a method that my disabled person can work with and sucking at computer stuff I don’t know any other methods that would avoid me hours of recopying and now you blame me for something you didn’t even told me not to do or didn’t bother being clear enough about. You don’t know what it’s like living with mental disability and you don’t even try to understand. You just demand your own way, your own methods of communication, your own way of writing emails, and you choose to deny me any any private conversation for something you never told me to do or never bothered being clear enough and all this because you choose to prejudice against disabled people like me just everybody else. You refuse to see and understand. You just want to hurt me and reject me like everybody else. You deny me any help or any tolerance. I thought I could trust you and you broke my trust and hurt me even more. Then you accused me of mentioning conversations that you never told me not to mention and even though you know I suffer from a disability and am challenged and that I’m going through a real living hell of problems, suffering and loneliness, you keep denying me any conversation and any help. What in the world did I ever do to you to deserve to be hurt, prejudiced against and rejected? How many messages will I have to send begging for your help in simplyfying that material that I might pull through this horrible crisis that never ends because even YOU are unwilling to land me a helping hand and some compassion? All people ever do is hurt me bad and betray my trust and leave me all alone so that I can never pull through in any way. Love and kindness are lies and don’t even exist, the only things that actually do exist is suffering, agony and loneliness. And no one in this universe or any other can ever be trusted. Everybody hates me or don’t care whether I live or die. So why don’t you just tell me to just go hand myself or down a bottle of pile? Everyone would be glad and relieved if I just killed myself because no one wants me around. Not even you. You don’t know the first damn thing about suffering and loneliness. You have tons of friends, a normal life, a purpose, health and all the stuff. You got it too good Alice. You never really suffer, you never have problems and of course you have all the answers even though you won’t share them with me. You don’t know what it’s like to be all alone without anyone who ever love you enough to extend you some help or even minister to you and try to offer you some answers that are not unconvicing or circular reasoning. You don’t know what it’s like being treated with so much indifference by everyone around you or even mockery for being a “disabled freak who’s a burden to society”. You don’t know what it’s like to suffer so bad that you just want to *ucking die, Alice. Christians, non-christians, people are all the same. Love and kindness are lies and don’t even exist and no one can ever be trusted because all they ever do is hurt betray and abandon you when you hurt like hell and have no one to go to. Thanks a lot “sister” for that additional layer of wounds and scars. That’s all I am now, nothing but wounds and scars in a world of indifferent people who walk away as a plead for help and some kindness. It’s the Christians’ fault there is so much atheism and absence of faith in the world, because they fail to show love to those who are not loved, because Christians who are supposed to reflect the nature and character of God don’t reflect kindness and love and don’t extend it to shipwrecked people and those in need of help. Then they demand that people to believe that God is good and loving when they don’t even reflect the character and nature they claim He has and they are surprised when people give up the faith or cannot believe them. Not is indifference the major cause of atheism, it kills. But you won’t see that. You demand that people believe that God is trustworthy, good and loving, while His followers, even those who left the system, don’t extend love and help to them and even though He and they keep breaking their trust. So don’t even bother to tell me about trustwothiness and love because there is no such thing, only suffering, agony and loneliness. Only indifference, prejudice, and rejection. You don’t know what it’s like being slowly killed by a cancer and gangrene of inner suffering because even your “brothers” and “sisters” don’t extend help or kindness to you and leave you all alone with all of your problems, struggles and suffering and never bother help you to understand some material or to find some answers and because they won’t even give you some purpose in this world, because they never offer you to play some part in something or offer you to be part of something that matters in their projects and stuff, because they don’t give you a reason to exist. Why don’t you just tell me to get out of your face and be done with it Alice? Why don’t you just finish me off? That’s the least you could do if you still have some mercy left in you…

                  • admin August 12, 2012 at 2:01 am

                    Please explain your disability so that I know how to respond in a way that you can receive my response.

                  • Stephen Helbig August 12, 2012 at 5:17 am

                    Michelle ~ I don’t know your particular situation, nor am I able to relate to all you are dealing with. But the following was a letter I wrote to a fellow sister in the Lord that I pray is worth repeating here because it concerns each of us. In this letter I have replaced your name with the individual with whom it was written in hopes that it may be applicable to your situation as it has been to my journeys in life and hers.

                    Michelle, we must in fact pass through several phases in our attitude towards understanding ourselves. We start life with a false attempt at self-appreciation. We try to make out we are all right; as the Bible calls it. ”going about to establish our own righteousness’’. That start ends when we become honest about ourselves in the sight of God, and our repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ which now becomes the end to our false self-appreciation. This you’ve experienced.

                    Now after this comes to us ~ “All things are naked and open unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do” (Heb. 4:13). The literal translation of this phrase is, all things are stripped and stunned. This is the force in the original Greek words about this passage of scripture for us. ~ The figure is that of an athlete in the Coliseum who has fought his best in the arena, and has at length fallen at the feet of his adversary, disarmed and broken down in helplessness. There he lies, unable to strike a blow, or lift his arm. He is stripped and stunned, disarmed and disabled, and there is nothing left for him but to lie at the feet of his adversary ( adversary ~being his self efforts), and he throw up his arms for mercy. Now this is the position that God wants to bring us to, ~ where we shall cease our struggles and our attempts at self-defense or self-improvement, and throw ourselves helplessly upon the mercy of God. This is the sinner’s only hope, (and all are sinners). When we now bow at the feet of mercy, we become ready for Jesus to lift us up and give us that free salvation (saving of who we were), and this is now waiting for us. This is the greatest need of the Christian seeking a deeper and higher life, to come to a full realization of our nothingness and helplessness, and to lie down, stripped and stunned at the feet of our LOVING SAVIOR Jesus. Again I believe you’ve experienced this.

                    This lying down at our savior’s feet is often followed by a long period of self-depreciation. As born again or anew Christians, we are making the discovery that it is not in redeemed “SELF”, any more than it was in the unredeemed “SELF”, to be what we should be. IT IS NOT IN OUR “SELF” at all. So during this time we become much more conscious of our failings, our inadequate human selves, instead of our “true reality” of ~ “CHRIST IN US”. Our focus is still amiss, we miss the true reality. We condemn ourselves, we stress our weaknesses, and we speak of our hunger and need, our inadequate love for God, our sins our failings, our dilemmas and circumstances. Our focus is all wrong. We say that if God does anything with our lives, it is in spite of us (whereas in fact it is because of us). This is the phase of “TEMPOARY” self-depreciation, necessary for us to learn the truth about ourselves, but only temporary.

                    The final phase in knowing who we really are now becomes available to us, and this becomes the ~ “rightful self-appreciation”. Notice this progress ~ from false self-appreciation, through temporary self-depreciation, to true self-appreciation. This true self-appreciation is at last when we live in the union (or marriage) of Christ in us, we now have found out that we are only the vessels that contain God; but we are vessels, and more, we are vessels who are really persons; and our humanity is now the self-expression of the Living God within us, no matter what our circumstances may be. We are the light of the world. We are the eternal love in action. The center of our inner consciousness has moved over from self-depreciation to “God-appreciation ~ containing God”, ~ and in this way our true self-appreciation is realized. God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise.

                    We have not yet come full circle, when our normal reactions in situations are to emphasize our weakness and need rather than our ability which states ~ ”I can do all things,” as Paul said. ”We are more than conquerors,” as Paul again speaks. ”We are well able to overcome it,” said Caleb. ”I am full of power,” said Micah. But in each case these fellow saints added that it was ”through Christ”, or ”by the Spirit of the Lord”, or some such statement. However, the primary emphasis was not on Him in them, but on themselves in Him, and they ”able ministers of the new covenant”- “His Promise to us” ~ of Christ in us, and through Him ~ manifested through our own personage. Michelle, YOU CAN DO ALL THINGS SET BEFORE YOU. Notice, their emphasis was not on their weakness but on their strength ~ by Him. This is the true self-affirmation. This is our destiny, and we will walk in this peace and joy of knowing Him, the Lover of our soul, for He has called you forth in victory. We are His Bride, created unto good works.

                    p.s. ~ I pray we all can relate to this truth of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Ever area and room we enter upon in our journey is for this purpose, ~ We are more than conquerers in Him who srenghthens us

                  • Stephen Helbig August 12, 2012 at 6:07 am

                    ~ correction to above p.s.

                    p.s. ~ I pray we all can relate to this truth of Christ in us the Hope of Glory. Every area and room we enter upon in our journey is for this purpose, ~ We are more than conquerers in Him who srenghthens us. ~ God’s Love wins.

          • Michelle August 7, 2012 at 2:12 am

            The lie and false doctrine of eternal damnation drives thousands of men and women to insanity, murder and suicide and cause many parents to kill their beloved little children before “the age of accountability” to “save them from eternal torture”. Those are parents who were ready to be eternally tortured for killing their children if it meant that their beloved children would spend eternity in heaven, they were ready to sacrifice their own eternal bliss and happiness to see their children eternally safe and happy. That is one of many reasons why the false doctrine of eternal damnation is so hideous, because it makes mankind a million times better, more loving and more selfless than God, it makes God a million times worse than Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein et al, it makes God the worse moral and parental failure in the universe and it makes the self-sacrifice of Christ a total failure for most of mankind.

            http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2009-04-08/news/shootfolo08_1_marie-moore-mitchell-moore-gun-range

            “Since I left the Hell-fire church and began to help people overcome the religous brainwashing they have been subjected to, I have gotten many letters, phone calls and emails from people whose experience in Christianity caused gentle-souled persons like this one to: “vomit alone in my apartment, certain I was elected for damnation by a cruel God who would laugh at me hysterically while I was ripped apart, eaten, fried, raped, and in every other imaginable way, tortured in hell?” He writes further, “I had long seriously considered killing myself in order to get out from under the emotional oppression and desperation of thoughts of my own damnation. The fear drove me to the point of complete insanity. I blew a solid three years of my youth (21-23) continuously contemplating my damnation and meanwhile lost friends, burdened family members, and drove my girlfriend away. I have yet to regain even a slight measure of what I lost. I was downing antidepressants and curling up in fetal position most nights bawling and praying that God would have mercy on me and unharden my heart so that I might actually be granted faith in Him, instead of Him willing me into reprobation and, therefore, everlasting, merciless torment and pure insanity in hell. Even now my walk with God is weak.”

            According to the young man who wrote the above, it was ministers preaching a God of love who brought him to the state of wanting to die. This God he was taught supposed loved everybody and yet was going to endlessly punish most of those He created who had not said the right words or didn’t mean them or didn’t do the right deeds like tithe or go to church or who did the wrong deeds like have sex out of marriage or who joined the wrong church, or believed in the wrong kind of Jesus – this kind of preaching which one hears from hundreds of thousands of churches around the world is what drove this young man to wanting to die. But he was too afraid to die because of the horrible fate he was certain awaited him. This poor young man was terrorized!

            Thousands of people have committed suicide because of the Hell-fire preaching they have heard. Millions of people want nothing to do with Jesus because of the Hell-fire message they heard in church, at home, on television or radio. They were terrorized!

            Women like Andrea Yates have killed their own children before the age of accountability for fear they would go to hell if they lived beyond that age. Why did they kill their children? To save them from eternal damnation. They were terrorized by preachers of doom!

            What would cause young Christian men and women, who think they are following Jesus Christ who commanded them to “love their enemies” and “do good to those who persecute you” to go around the world killing hundreds of thousands of unsaved people. These deluded Christian soldiers have been taught in their churches that those they kill will be tormented day and night forever and ever without any hope of relief if they die without first “being born again.” Jesus said true Christians, true disciples, were to overcome their enemies with love even as He overcame His enemies with love. What would drive a young Christian man to think that killing unsaved people around the world was doing God’s will?

            Do you know how many thousands of young men are terrorized for life by what they were exposed to and asked to do in the name of country and god? Do you know what it is like to spend months being programmed by men to become killing machines while having in your heart the knowledge that a Christian is to overcome their enemies with love? These poor soldiers were triple terrorized. First they were terrorized by their ministers who fed them hypocritical lies and confusion about a God who tells them to overcome their enemies with love while He eternally terrorizes His in burning flames. Then they were terrorized by drill sargents who are taught to turn these sensitive young men and women into killing machines. And finally they were terrorized by the realization that they had either killed or contributed in killing men, women and children who would, according to what they had been taught in church, will spend eternity being terrorized forever in ways unfathomable to the human heart! And according to the theology they received, it was God who invented this dialbolical place called Hell. These poor deluded soldiers who terrorize the world for American Pride and service to their god, are prodded along by military Christian chaplains and Jewish Rabbis. These poor men and woman have been brutalized! And we wonder why they return from the battlefields sick and demented as they protect “American interests” in foreign countries. We wonder why they become cronic alcoholics and drug addicts. We wonder why they often commit suicide or commit murder after their time in the military. We wonder why their family lives often greatly suffer.

            These poor brainwashed young men and woman were TERRORIZED by ministers, by “men of the cloth,” who injected into them “traditions of men which make the word of God of no effect.” (Matt. 5:6-9) These ministers thought they were representing Christ, but they were actually feeding God’s children “doctrines of demons!” These young impressionable young men and woman were terrorized by drill sargents. They were terrorized by mercenaries of powerful men and women who use soldiers as “cannon fodder” for their own gain.

            How can a God who said He came to save the world – Who said He accomplished what He came to do (draw all mankind to Himself) end up terrorizing 99 percent of all humanity by burning them alive forever in a lake of fire!? Satan is the author of confusion, not Jesus. This doctrine which says that God is love and yet has allowed a course to run in which almost all of those He created will be ultimately estranged from Him is NOT sound doctrine, it does not bring peace to the soul, it TERRORIZES people! And it is perhaps the greatest lie Satan has ever perpetrated on this planet.

            Think about what kind of attitude and insensitivity is injected into the hearts of God’s people when exposed to teachings for hundreds of centuries of these kinds of words and images.

            Dear brothers and sisters of the world, Christian or otherwise, the quotes above were not from some deranged, sick, twisted little wannabe preachers. These words, which can be multiplied by the millions throughout the centuries were spoken by what the church considers “the greats” of Christian orators and ministers! What else but terrorized minds and hardened hearts can be produced in people who are exposed to these kinds of graphically violent and perverted words? Terrorized people become terrorists! Little wonder, then, that “Christian nations” with their “Christian armies” have inflicted some of the most cruel behavior upon the “unsaved savages” of the world.

            Surely Mahatma Ghandi’s statement applies more today than ever before:

            “If it weren’t for Christians, I’d be a Christian.”

            Think about it. We say on one hand that God is love and wants us to forgive fully and be at peace even with our enemies, but on the other hand he will eternally torment most of mankind (his enemies), who didn’t do the right thing to “get saved.” Of course, the “right thing” varies from denomination to denomination and even from pastor to pastor within a denomination. These terrorists love to misquote, “Broad is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life.” These terrorists use verses like this to mean very few human beings will be saved when it is all said and done. Some of these devilish tormentors are even more sadistic. Not only are there scarcely any which will be saved, but according to them (Calvinists), most of mankind was purposed by God for the eternal barbeque pit. And there is nothing they can do to change that. Terrorists like Jonathan Edwards, whose famous sermon “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” actually made the history books, caused compassion-filled listeners to go home and hang themselves after hearing Edwards dangle them over eternal flames during his sermons. Many denominations of Christianity embrace this “Reformed” teaching of double-predestination. Some of the most famous Christian theologians like John Calvin, D. James Kennedy, A.W. Pink., Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield taught this terrorizing doctrine.

            But regardless of whether the terrorist preaches an Arminian or Calvinistic flavor of this deadly poison, the result for those who teach it, for those who hear it and for those who are in countries who are influenced by the teaching, the result of it is terror, death and utter hypocrisy!

            Our “poison,” that is “Christian doctrines” based upon the “traditions of men” and “doctrines of demons” have poisoned our minds. Since we are God’s present representatives on earth and have tremendous clout and authority, we have poisoned the world as well as ourselves. The “terrorism” in the Middle East is merely a reflection of Christian and Jewish terrorism. We are getting back what we have sown. “An eye for an eye” will produce a lot of one-eyed people. Since the traditional Christian image of god is one who is justified in tormenting his enemies while saying that His nature is really love, then we feel perfectly justified in tormenting and killing our perceived enemies. We have become like the god we worship. Or put another way, we have conformed God into our own vengengeful, corrupt, small greedy hearts.”

            “Millions of human beings have been driven to the brink of insanity through this abominable teaching which has turned the image of the Savior of the world into an image so hideous that some people find Satan more tolerable than the traditional Christian view of god. Even Hitler with all his evil doings is better than that god preached erroneously by most Christians today. Most Christians, for many centuries have been taught and have passed onto their children the teaching that if one doesn’t accept Christ before they die, they will be tortured for all eternity in a place called Hell which God created for that very purpose. Clearing away the double-talk– traditional churches have taught a loving and just God who commands us to overcome our enemies with love, but who, in the end, will become the biggest hypocrite in the universe by consigning the vast majority of mankind to everlasting flames. The traditional church and its millions of terrorist teaching cells.”

            “Imagine a young soldier raised in a Christian home, taught to spread the “Good News to all peoples” sent to Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq or God knows where else crazed leaders sent our youth to die — this young man is taught that all those who do not accept Jesus Christ before they die will end up in a place of eternal torment. He is commanded by a Christian President and a Senate and Congress that has a Christian chaplain and a military with thousands of Christian Chaplins to go to another country, not to give them the Gospel, but to kill them. According to what this young man is taught by the church, anyone he killed who was not a born-again Christian automatically goes to eternal damnation. It is bad enough to be responsible for killing a person, but to be responsible for sending a person into eternal flames to be writhing endlessly without hope of escape is enough to drive young men and women crazy. THAT is why there are so many thousands of veterans who need psychological help that there are not enough rooms in VA hospitals for them. They become alcoholics and drug addicts and suicide cases! These poor young men have been terrorized by Christian ministers and government and military leaders all the way to their graves!

            There is a very sinister death dance being danced by Zionist Jews and Christians which is spinning this entire planet out of alignment. Right wing Christians claim they love Israel and the Jewish people because they interpret certain Old Testament scriptures as stating that those who touch the Jews will receive God’s wrath. Therefore, they rubber stamp everything Israel does and requests from the American government. Yet at the same time, these Right Wing Conservative Christians hate the negative effects liberal Jews have had upon the moral fiber of American society. They do NOT like the power Jews wield in the media, Hollywood, education, military and politics. They hope to see an end to all the liberal Jewish influence soon. They expect very shortly for all Jews to be forced to Israel. There the majority of them will be killed in the Battle of Armageddon finally being avenged of having to tolerate them for so long.

            The Jews know how these Christians feel. They have heard the Nixon transcripts and have heard comments like those Billy Graham said behind closed doors that Jews are a serious problem to America. Men like Jerry Falwell, who flies around the country in a jet provided from Israel for the pro-Israel propaganda he peddles around the United States, don’t really love Jews nor Israel. Men like John Hagee don’t have a real love for Jews or Israel. It’s all a front! They can’t wait to see the majority of Jews killed in the Great Battle. Jews know the latent, pent up hate that flows in these men. And these Right Wing Christian Zionists know the corruption of American society which they attribute to liberal Jews. Both Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists are using each other. They face each other in their death dance with smiles upon their faces, but daggers behind their backs. But because both Jews and Right Wing Christians have so much power in the United States, Britain and Israel, these two forces are creating a problem that can do great damage to the entire planet. If Christians had not been deceived by the doctrine of Hell which set them up for this kind of eschatogy, we would not have the kind of problem we now have in the Middle East. America would not be blindly supporting a clearly racist and elitist state like Israel. If Christians truly held to the teaching that we must learn to love even our enemies even as Christ loved AND forgave ALL of His enemies, then America, supposedly a Christian nation, would not be doing what it is in the world, especially in Middle East.

            The traditional teaching of Hell has positioned millions of Christians into supporting some of the most abominable acts imaginable. Nations we are called to “save” through the gospel and through laying down our lives, we are now ravaging and destroying in the name of freedom, Democracy, and God.”

            “These terrorist organizations must be brought down. They may be named by the single man or woman who started them. But they are systems, systems of incredible influence upon the minds of human beings, cells of darkness, far worse than terrorist cells in the Middle East. I realize that many of the leaders in these Christian Terrorists Organizations are brainwashed themselves — that they do not realize they are Satan’s emmissaries. However, they have made themselves untouchable. They have insulated themselves from the Truth. They will not look at the plain evidence all over the internet that what they are teaching is error. They like the kingdom they have built. They like their salaries and reputation.

            To admit they were wrong and change their teaching will destroy the system they have built because it was built upon fear. Look at Carlton Pearson, a man raised under the teachings of Hell, who perpetuated the teaching for years. At the height of his prominence, he got the revelation that the teaching of Hell was false. What happened to him when he began to speak the truth? He lost just about everything and was immediately labeled a heretic by those who continued to promote the Hell teaching. Do you think they were not aware of what happened to Carlton Pearson? Oh, they were aware of it aright! And that is one of the major reasons these leaders do not even want to look at the scriptural and historical evidence proving that the teaching of Hell is a pagan myth inherited by the church through the Roman Catholic Church “christianizing” every abomination it picked up from pagan religions just prior to and during the Dark Ages.

            These leaders need some cold water splashed on their faces. And that is the purpose of this page — to force them to look at the teaching of Hell and everlasting punishment more closely — to force them to examine their motives. Yes, I realize I am offending them. The truth will anger them. The truth brings wrath. Look at what the Truth did to the Pharisees. It got them mad. Did that prevent Jesus from speaking the truth. Look at what the truth did to Stephen the first martyr. Did that prevent him from releasing the words of the Holy Spirit rebuking the highest authorities in Israel?”

            “eternal damnation” is a penalty that doesn’t match the crime, especially as we were all born (without being consulted in any way) into a sinful condition.”

            So much for free will. If being born into a sinful condition is not a choice and has nothing to do with free will, salvation is not a choice and has nothing to do with free will. No one chose to be born into a sinful condition and no one can “choose” salvation. It is a gift that will eventually be bestowed upon all. “As in Adam, all die, in Christ, shall all be made alive.” “Each in his own turn.” Everyone die in Adam without exception, everyone will be made alive in Christ without exception.

            “I remember when I was coming to my beliefs about God, I struggled and struggled with the concept of “hell” it’s what kept me AWAY from God most of my life. I never accepted it. When I encountered it again when I truly started to seek God, (or when he reached out to ME, however you look at it) I ended up one night on the floor of my shower, shaking uncontrollably and crying out from the depths of my soul. I couldn’t take it. My worse enemy, cancer doctors that basically helped ruin my family’s life, HITLER.. I didn’t want any of them to suffer for all eternity!!! My GOD!!! MY GOD!!! I couldn’t look anyone in the eye, strangers in a grocery store, I kept crying in public, I kept seeing people and wandering, my GOD! are they going to hell???! I couldn’t do it, I was literally LOSING MY MIND. How can I reconcile the God of love with this horrible teaching?! It was bad enough thinking about the salvation of those I loved, but my enemies, perfect strangers, EVERY HUMAN BEING was on my back weighing me down. They were all there, everyone…. standing on my shoulders. I kept praying about EVERYONE. I started truly learning how to LOVE my enemies. I thought, I have found a loophole! God says he will give us all things… WELL GOD! I want ALL to be saved! That is what I want! Then slowly but surely, God showed me the way… and brought me out of my insanity…. and showed me that Yes. He does love all of His creation. He will save ALL.”

            “What I’ve observed is that most eternal torment believers give only a mental consent to the concept of eternal hell and they can block it out of their reality. The ones who REALLY suffer are those with a deep practical compassion which they cannot divorce from there theological belief system, or those with very vivid imaginations or those with obsessive compulsive disorders.

            People have literally gone insane over this so I have no qualms about exposing this ungodly error. It’s probably the worst slander and most horrific concept ever put forth by humans, especially the Calvinist “God planned it that way” version. Really really sick.”

            “And this is strange, for the majority who believe they are born of God and are made in His likeness and image would not subject their worst enemies to such a fate, much less their own children and loved ones. But they accuse the God of love of doing so by their absurd assertions.”

            “Simply stated, whatever God does, He does it out of His own will and volition. He is not forced to do so because of people having some sort of sovereign free will that opposes God’s omnipotent will. If such were true, it would make the creature greater than the Creator. Such ascriptions of God are nonsense!”

            “I ask whence it happened that the fall of Adam involved, without remedy, in eternal death to so many nations, together with their infant children, except because it so seemed good to God? A decree horrible, I confess, and yet true.” (John Calvin, 1506 – 1564).

            We are amazed that people will openly declare how God has made such a horrible decree, and then claim to worship Him.

            We can only conclude that it must be out of utter fear that a god of this sort is worshiped, or else, the same evil they have ascribed to God is harbored in their hearts. Some, of course, worship such a god out of fear. They will believe in Him and serve Him; but they will most likely never really love Him, unless they can love an indifferent, fiendish tormentor of good people who failed to say the sinner’s prayer before breathing their last breath. As I quoted Forest Gump in our previous article, “Stupid is as stupid does,” and if our Father, who is love, did such a stupid thing as burning the children of His love forever, He should be called stupid. Moreover, I am not sure I would like to keep company with a god of that caliber. For that matter, I know I wouldn’t. Let me ask, could you love and have warm affections toward your natural father who tortured and killed all your brothers and sisters for failing in various ways, and spared only you because you told him that you loved him and would always do whatever he wished or demanded, even unto to death? Again, stupid is as stupid does, and such would not only be stupid, but insane, and that is what they are saying about our Father!”

            “Hell is child abuse, pure and simple. We need to end the emotional, psychological and spiritual abuse of millions of innocent children by their pastors, Sunday School teachers and parents, today.”

            “If those who read these few pages truly believe in a god who will torment the majority of his own creation forever in a literal lake of fire that burns with literal flames, then please hear me, and harken to my sobering words:

            If you are a male, do as Mervin Behlen did — do not delay, but rush to your doctor and get a vasectomy. If you are a female of child bearing age — do not delay, but rush to your doctor and have your tubes tied. Whatever you do, don’t have any babies, and if you already have some, don’t have anymore. If you bear children after reading this, I must conclude that you either don’t believe the damnable doctrine of eternal punishment, or you will gamble with their lives in hopes that they will jump through a religious hoop and get saved before they die. If neither of the two are accurate, and you still believe in everlasting doom for the lost, can it be that you don’t love your children enough to care what their eternal fate might be?

            If you truly love your children, and you believe that there is one chance in a million that at least one of them could possibly fail to be saved after the age of accountability, what would stop you from doing the unthinkable? For example, Andrea Yates, a Houston, Texas mother who drowned her five children said, “I killed them so their souls would go to heaven.” Her defense attorney said almost the same on her behalf: “She didn’t know what she was doing because she thought she was saving her children’s souls by sending them to heaven.”

            How many other parents have done the same? The thought of eternal damnation has driven countless people insane, and perhaps this woman as well; how many others, we may wonder, have killed their babies to insure their eternal security.

            I have made pointed statements, sober suggestions, and asked thought-provoking questions. Now, if you can still hold to such teachings that are so far removed from God as the east is from the west, before casting my proposals into a manmade hell, will you think soberly and make some sobering decisions? Perhaps, to rethink your beliefs and receive the love of the truth. I sincerely hope you do.”

            “This thread makes me grateful to be a Universalist.

            I don’t understand why people choose to worship a God who acts like an abusive husband. “You’re nothing but worthless trash without me. You could never do anything right on your own. You’d better love me like crazy, or your punishment will be worse than you could possibly imagine.”

            I just… if that’s what I thought God was like, worship and praise would be the last things on my mind. I can conceive of a God like that, but not one that would fit any definition of “good” that I could ever agree with.”

            “How does it benefit God for the majority of mankind to burn eternally in the fires of hell? How does this equate with “God is Love”? Does God truly love us or hate us? Do these false teachings drive more people away from the church than are saved by the church? Where might one discover the true teachings of Christianity? The true good news of Christianity can be found in the scriptures. We have had too much of this fear, misery, and nonsense!

            Although Christian theologians confirm that Andrea Yates succeeded in saving her children from hell and sending them directly to live with God in heaven, she will be extremely disappointed to learn that this eternal damnation theology is a myth! As long as this erroneous theology is taught, expect the periodic murder of children by concerned Christian parents to continue. Likewise, expect those teaching this false doctrine (aka Fundamentalists) to immediately deny any responsibility after each occurrence!

            This book is dedicated to Noah, John, Paul, Luke, and Mary Yates; and other children murdered over the years by Christian parents in an attempt to save them from the mythical torture chamber. More of these innocent victims are listed below:

            Antonio Lopez: 9 years old: July 19, 2005
            Erik Lopez: 2 years old: July 19 2005
            Margaret Schlosser: 10 months old: Nov 23 2004
            Joshua Keith Laney: 8 years old: May 10 2003
            Luke Allen Laney: 6 years old: May 10 2003
            Samantha Mae Martin: 6 years old: March 29 2002
            Noah Yates: 7 years old: June 20 2001
            John Yates: 5 years old: June 20 2001
            Paul Yates: 3 years old: June 20 2001
            Luke Yates: 2 years old: June 20 2001
            Mary Yates: 6 months old: June 20 2001
            Nicholas Lemak: 3 years old: March 4 1999
            Emily Lemak: 6 years old: March 4 1999
            Thomas Lemak: 3 years old: March 4 1999
            Kouaeai Hang: 11 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Kouaeai Samson Hang: 9 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Nali Hang: 8 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Tang Lung Hang: 7 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Aee Hang: 6 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Tung Ke Hang: 5 years old: Sept 3 1998
            Justin Thomas Riggs: 5 years old: Nov 4 1997
            Shelby Alexis Riggs: 2 years old: Nov 4 1997
            Christina Gindorf: 23 months old: March 28 1985
            Jason Gindorf: 3 months old: March 28 1985

            Fundamentalism with its false doctrine of eternal torture/eternal separation from God, is the major cause of of most insanity, suicide, infanticide and filicide in the world. It is the great evil and it must be opposed en masse. That’s why christian universalists do so and say: “Never again!”

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 20, 2012 at 4:43 am

    Hear stories of Abundant Life at http://www.unshackled.org

  • Mary Vanderplas July 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm

    I agree that the abundant life is a present reality, something that we can experience here and now. And I agree that there is much in the “system” that is corrupt and oppressive and death-dealing, i.e., the antithesis of the abundant life that Jesus gives. However, I don’t think that the system as such is beyond hope, nor do I think that the system never acts as a conduit by which people come to receive the abundant life. My own experience in the institutional church has been mixed. On the one hand, I’ve experienced (and likely also participated in) the death-dealing aspects (in particular, a deadly legalism breeding an equally lethal attitude of self-righteousness); and on the other hand, I’ve experienced through my involvement in the institution the joy and freedom and fulfillment of life that God intends for all of us. In my view, the problem isn’t mainly the institution as such, but illegitimate authority within it that seeks to control, to silence alternative viewpoints, to preserve its own position at all costs, and otherwise to abuse power and oppress the very ones it is called to serve. Legitimate authority, in contrast, recognizes that leadership after the manner of Christ entails humble service, that seeking and knowing the truth is not the same as claiming doctrinal certitude and possession of the truth, and that all believers are authorized and called to be servants of God to minister to other people.

    I can understand and appreciate your (withering) indictment of the system. And I agree with what you say about abundant life being the gift of a relationship with Christ, which does not depend on the system. I appreciate, too, your strong conviction about the need for radical reformation of the institution – for the sake of the believers within its ranks and the not-yet-believers outside. Your words are for me a bold challenge to stand for truth and freedom and life, whatever the cost.

    • admin July 26, 2012 at 12:39 am

      You write, “I’ve experienced through my involvement in the institution the joy and freedom and fulfillment of life that God intends for all of us.” I don’t doubt this, because I’ve had the same experience – little moments of God’s glory revealed in friendships and common interests. It just so happened to be in the institution, but I would say it was because of my involvement with other believers who love and are loved by God, and having nothing at all to do with the institution. The bond of love in His Spirit – which is nothing short of a miracle, considering it happens in an environment in which some who unknowingly oppose God in so many ways and others who know they oppose God but don’t care – transcends, but when the Spirit is “afflicted with deep sorrow”, that bond is broken. It is by the Spirit that we understand God as “Daddy”; we are taught and remember the teaching of Christ; we are enabled to NOT behave as if we oppose God or He us; His love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control are produced in us; by His Spirit we see the difference between truth and error; we are comforted and never alone; the “depths” of God are searched on our behalf so that we can discover how to compare some spiritual ideas with other spiritual ideas and know what God is giving us – what can’t be described in words or understood with normal human reasoning; the Spirit prays on our behalf when we don’t know how to pray… An institution that is and has been under the control of Spirit-quenching people for over 1500 years can’t do any of this.

      • Mary Vanderplas July 26, 2012 at 6:57 am

        Your point is well-taken (and powerfully articulated), though I was reflecting not just on experiences of friendship with other believers in the context of the institution but also on experiences of corporate worship and study, challenges to and opportunities for faithful stewardship, etc., that have been instrumental in my receiving and experiencing the abundant life. I suppose it could be said that even these things are not related to the institution with its power structures. At any rate, I agree that much of what happens in the institution is not conducive to the Spirit’s life-giving work – though I continue to be hesitant to say that God has given up entirely on the institution.

        • admin July 26, 2012 at 11:33 am

          I think that God uses the institution in the same way He uses non-religious charitable organizations, to distribute goods and services to the needy, although non-religious organizations have a better track record as far as percentages of income that go toward meeting the needs versus facilities, payroll, and training supplies.

          • Mary Vanderplas July 26, 2012 at 8:57 pm

            One of the ways in which I’ve experienced the abundant life through my involvement in the institutional church is by developing the discipline of giving to meet the needs of others. The church has been instrumental in my experiencing the fruit of generosity – and the joy and freedom of trusting God to supply my needs instead of anxiously clutching what I’ve been given. While I can’t say that I would not have this fruit if I were not a part of the institution, I can say that the teaching I’ve received, along with the examples of generous giving in response to God’s grace that I’ve been exposed to in the context of the institution, have made a difference in my own attitude and practice. The Spirit has used the institution to enable me to experience this fruit.

          • Michelle July 31, 2012 at 12:30 pm

            “I think that God uses the institution in the same way He uses non-religious charitable organizations, to distribute goods and services to the needy, although non-religious organizations have a better track record as far as percentages of income that go toward meeting the needs versus facilities, payroll, and training supplies.”

            Non-religious charitable organizations don’t only feed and help the needy, they don’t condemn their fellow men to an eternal place of torture, which clearly proves that a lot of atheists are more moral and good than many Christians. If Christ really is really as good and loving as some Christians say He is, atheists are more christlike than Christians. And strip-clubs are more safe than whitewashed churches because they don’t portray God as a monster who sadistically torture people forever.

            “Satan lives in churches, not strip joints”, by Martin Zender:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L60jrVB9K8

          • Michelle August 8, 2012 at 2:03 am

            You need to see this…

            Just more corruption in the Bible:

            “Jesus didn’t avoid the appearance of evil and neither should you!
            Many use a poor translation of 1 Thessalonians 5:22 to put people in bondage and ultimately the only fruit is that a dark world doesn’t get to experience the light of Jesus encounter them because they are hiding in Church where it’s safe”:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxFSwApV4Aw

            I’m definitely gonna put that one on my channel.

            The KJV translation is just so full of shit (what did you expect from a “hell” and “holy ghost greek” translation?). I wonder how many passages have been changed and how many verses have been removed from our shitty translations to fit the ruling body’s agendas. This “mistranslated” verse just prove that some passages have been changed to put people in bondage and to stop the light from shining into the darkness.

      • Michelle August 8, 2012 at 1:08 am

        You know what really, really bothers me? The fact that there is democracy in the institutional church. The fact that church members are not given the right to vote pastor or church leader out of the office if he is abusive, oppressive, incompetent or if he abuse his authority in any way. We have democracy in the political institution, but we don’t have democracy in the institutional church. All power is given to corrupt church leaders and no one is taking actions to change that. Even worse, the Vatican is covering for pedophile priests who molested and raped thousands of children in the last ten years and these criminals have been made untouchable (no pun intended). Many of these children’s parents couldn’t even bring the priest to justice and many of those who succeeded to do so lost their case. None of this would’ve happened if the church members had been democracy. Also, the church members could’ve come up with a system of keeping a record of the names and adresses of all church members and clergy men and send copies of these files to the other churches in the area should some priests be found guilty of sexual abuse. That way, the pedophile priests would be banned from all churches in the area and parents wouldn’t have to worry about what might happen to their kids in church. And had the church members been given the right to democracy in the church and given some authority, these pedophile priests would’ve been brought to justice a long time ago. Because the church members wouldn’t have allowed the Vatican to cover up for these priests. When all authority is given to the church leaders, the clergy men, who are in league with the Vatican who cover up for them, they are untouchable and can do pretty much anything they want without being brought to justice. The institutional church is full of abusers and criminals and while they should be behind bars where they can no longer harm children, they are free to continue their wicked activities because the Vatican is on their side and the church members have no authority and democracy in the church. Because of that, the institutional church is full of sexual immorality and thousands of innocent kids pay the price of irresponsible church members who don’t take actions to change things. In fact, it’s as much their fault as it is the clergy’s and the Vatican’s because they don’t take actions and they don’t do the responsible thing. Inaction is the cause of most innocent suffering. I say it like it is. They are too busy following pastor so and so, listening to the last sermont on sex outside of marriage (such hypocrisy) and tithing their money to the greedy preachers under the threat of eternal barbecue or some OT curse (instead of feeding the homeless themselves or sending their kids to the university that they get better jobs and provide for their families). Unbelievable. Really, where is this world going to? Obviously, it’s going down the toilet…

    • Stephen Helbig July 26, 2012 at 12:13 pm

      “In my view, the problem isn’t mainly the institution as such, but illegitimate authority within it that seeks to control, to silence alternative viewpoints, to preserve its own position at all costs, and otherwise to abuse power and oppress the very ones it is called to serve. Legitimate authority, in contrast, recognizes that leadership after the manner of Christ entails humble service, that seeking and knowing the truth is not the same as claiming doctrinal certitude and possession of the truth, and that all believers are authorized and called to be servants of God to minister to other people”. ~ a truly eloquent statement ~ THANK you ~ Mary

  • […] When I heard that she was about to release this book, my first thought was, “Seriously?”  I didn’t imagine it would be a book I would be all that interested in reading, since “Biblical” womanhood, in my mind, is synonymous with “oppression.”  Please understand that I am very interested in living an abundant life with a clear conscience before God and that I do value the scriptures.  But I’ve also seen and experienced some pretty stupid ideas about what it means to be a woman imposed upon unsuspecting people who haven’t really stopped to consider that there’s a huge difference between the words “God-honoring” and “Biblical.”  You see, “Biblical” is a hijacked word, sort of like the word “Christian” is a hijack…. […]

  • Post a comment

    Threaded commenting powered by interconnect/it code.