Accidental Church

Accidental Church

Accidental Church

Tonight Tim and I went to buy some shoes and accidentally went to church.

It started with a beautiful sunset. We wanted to get a better look, and since Crane’s Roost was nearby, we drove a couple of blocks and parked the car. As we were walking toward the water, we heard a lone male voice accompanied by an acoustic guitar. We followed the sound of the music and found a seat near the stage. It became apparent that the man was spiritually inspired, because the lyrics were about surrendering control of your life to God. The man finished his song and then told a story about how he and his wife adopted nine children. Tim and I were really engaged at that point.

Then a preacher took the stage and launched into a typical Sunday-morning style message. He talked about getting saved, asked the rhetorical question, “Saved from what?” I braced myself for some hell fire and damnation, but then he answered his question something like this: You need to be saved from a life of hopelessness.

I looked up the church when we got back home and found this in ALL CAPS on the WHAT WE BELIEVE section of the church website:

We believe that those persons who die in their sins without Christ spend eternity in Hell and those persons who die with their sins forgiven through Christ spend eternity in Heaven.

If that’s what he really believes, then why did he blow his chance to rescue the people of Altamonte Springs from eternal hell by saying they need to be saved from hopelessness? Why didn’t he warn them about what’s really going to happen to them?

  1. Deep down, he doesn’t really believe in his own doctrine.
  2. He believes his own doctrine, but he’s ashamed of it. In fact, he’s so ashamed of it, he would rather risk the eternal destiny of his listeners then embarrass himself with what he believes to be the truth.

:::sigh:::

I’m sure God used the pastor’s well-intended message to encourage someone or draw someone into a relationship with Him. Hopefully he/she/they will get to know God BEFORE they read the doctrine on the church website or take a membership class.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. (Matthew 23:15)

Related: Keys to Hell

Unrelated: To those of you who regularly follow this blog, hello again! The blogging hiatus has ended! Upcoming blogs include The Shack movie review, a review of a sermon given by my dad at his church in Colombia, a guest blog, and more…

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas April 16, 2017 at 6:55 am

    There is another option. He believes it, but knows that it won’t sell among the people gathered in that setting and so opts for a gentler approach that focuses not on the eternal consequences of not coming to faith but on the temporal consequences: missing out on the hope-filled, joy-filled, peace-filled life that is life in Christ. Of course I don’t know where he’s coming from, but it seems to me that this is another possibility, in addition to the two you mention. And yes, I agree, hopefully some of the listeners were drawn into relationship with God – by desire to know this God who rescues from a hopeless life, not by fear of what will happen if they don’t believe.

    Welcome back!

    • Alice Spicer April 16, 2017 at 11:45 am

      Thanks for sharing the third option. I agree with what you said. In a phone call this morning someone suggested he was teaching “in layers,” which is certainly a possibility. So yeah, there are three options, perhaps more. My problem with the third option is that he should consider the reason it won’t sell. Humanity has an innate and likely God-given awareness that something is terribly wrong with the eternal torment doctrine.

      • Mary Vanderplas April 17, 2017 at 5:48 am

        Yes, I agree. People instinctively know that divine justice completely devoid of kindness and mercy just isn’t right – which is why they recoil at this terrible teaching. I’d add that it could be reasonably expected that believers in particular would have major trouble with a doctrine that is totally at odds with the ethics of the Christian faith – specifically, treating fellow human beings with kindness, mercy, and love. As I heard a preacher say, “God is just as good a Christian as we are.”

        • Lanny A. Eichert April 28, 2017 at 5:22 am

          Mary,
          It looks like maybe you agree with “God is just as good a Christian as we are.” Do you realize how humanizing a statement that is, lowering God to human holiness? You must know Isaiah 64: 6 and yet it goes on to verse 7 “consumed us, because of our iniquities.” You wrote, “divine justice completely devoid of kindness and mercy just isn’t right” yet in your assumptions you miss that God would not be kind forcing holiness upon wicked persons. Look, Alice can’t stomach the Baptist preaching. How much would the wicked be uncomfortable in the presence of God, His holy angels, and His saints in heaven if they were forced to be there? Say, haven’t you read J. C. Ryle’s book titled “Holiness”? He emphasizes this life after salvation is to build the saint’s holiness so that he will be comfortable in that holy atmosphere in which he will be in immortality. God will not place us in an environment uncomfortable to us. Righteousness will not be forced upon the wicked and wickedness will not be forced upon the righteous. Each with his own kind forever. That’s why solitary everlasting torment is God’s kindness and mercy to the wicked. You just haven’t thought about the alternative. Maybe you haven’t been around enough holy people for a long enough time to be uncomfortable.

          • Mary Vanderplas April 28, 2017 at 7:30 am

            I see you haven’t learned anything during your time-out. You’re right back to your old ways of making insinuations about me and the company I keep. No, I won’t be engaging you on this site – not now, not ever. You’ll have to find someone else on whom to unload your fundamentalist psychotic-monster-deity (commanding love for enemies, inflicting unending torment) crap. As for me, from this point on, I won’t even be reading it.

  • Stephen Helbig April 16, 2017 at 9:18 am

    I too would have found a “sat&chat” “interesting” with the man and wife with nine adopted children, (being the oldest of nine siblings) 🙂 That being said, I’m always interested in whatgoddoes , 😉 Welcome back 🙂 upon the return of your blessed hiatus. 🙂

    p.s. – I’m smiling

    • Alice Spicer April 16, 2017 at 11:46 am

      Thanks for reading and the warm welcome 🙂

      Just for clarification, the man with nine adopted children was the singer and the preacher was a different man.

      • Stephen Helbig April 16, 2017 at 4:05 pm

        I caught that first time around 😉 , and that’s the sit & talk I would have loved to fellowship with further, ( a special kind of agape love). Besides I really love worshippers, and my impression was he was one who worshiped in spirit and truth.

        p.s. – Love compels us, the greatest is love!

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 2, 2017 at 5:15 am

    Alice,
    Are you going to denounce your dad equally with Matthew 23:15 or will you cut him the slack of preaching to a culture as ignorant of hell as are the liberal “Christian” Americans who deny the inerrancy of the Holy Bible? Liberalism, like your mom’s and Mary’s Presbyterianism, has filled Altamonte Springs with an “enlightened post-Christian” people who regard hell as a barbaric myth to be discarded and disregarded. Therefore “hopelessness” resonates with them more than “hell”. The preacher is wiser than you think. You can’t see beyond your feelings; and like a woman, you’re run by your feelings. That’s why women make bad theologians and you’re having such a bad time of it. It is no area for you and Mary who need to submit to male authority. The Bible says so. Respect that preacher and respect your dad above yourself. They both have authority from God.

    Regarding Mary’s response above (Mary Vanderplas April 28, 2017 at 7:30 am) I hope you know the “tension” (I use Mary’s old word respectfully) that exists between liberalism and fundamentalism is to be expected as she offensively expressed it. I began my post with a “maybe” and ended it with a “maybe” leaving her free room to confirm, dispute, or debate, but true to form as a woman, she led off with her emotions. This shows the uncomfortableness that both of you have for holy people: the point I made IS about God not forcing the holy fellowship of saints upon the unsaved as being His kindness toward poor unsaved sinners. It is not just a feminine problem: sinful men are also uncomfortable in the company of God’s saints on this earth. It is as old as Creation. Why did Cain kill Abel? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous {1 John 3: 12}. The wicked hate the righteous while the righteous have mercy and love enough toward the wicked to tell them the Gospel and the error of their ways. That’s the real world. Alice, the Cain and Abel thing is why Mary is fuming so against me because her liberalism rebels against the perfect imputed righteousness faith-claim of the fundamentalist, because it leaves everybody else in wickedness, including you and her. That’s why you need to become a “fundy” and believe every word is perfect even to the spelling of it in the Biblical languages. That’s why I write: to see you get Biblically saved. Your own daddy, too, is praying for your salvation, so don’t pull Matthew 23:15 on him.

    • Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm

      I’ve been on this site for six years now, and I have yet to read anything written by Alice’s “daddy” about what he believes or that he’s praying for her eternal salvation. If this was a matter of grave concern to him, as you claim to know that it is, then why wouldn’t he be on here expressing and defending his firmly held views and passion for his misguided daughter’s preservation from the fires of hell. I can’t imagine why you should have to speak for him if what you claim has even a modicum of truth in it.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 2, 2017 at 6:48 pm

      Alice,
      Mary seems extremely possessive of maintaining you as her disciple wanting you to denounce your daddy equally with Matthew 23:15 as you have that preacher you accidentally heard. She certainly doesn’t want you to become a “fundy” at any cost. For me her colors have certainly been displayed in these two posts: she’s obviously the enemy’s advocate desperately encouraging you against your daddy and his gospel, especially his gospel, since it is the same as the preacher’s you heard. She doesn’t remember or know that your mom and dad go back with me and my wife to the late 1970’s in New Jersey when you were little. Six years Mary said of herself, but as for me and myself I was posting here some time before my wife died and she died six years ago. I remember we visited you all at Orlando in 1980 and we all went to Disney. You had an in-ground pool.

      So, yes, I think I know your dad much better than Mary does and we share the same faith. He still loves you and wants the best for you and that means heaven, too. You will have to drop the “unscathed” bit, Alice, because admitting wrong doctrine is never comfortable. I even have to do that this week concerning a discussion I had with my pastor recently yet learned in my further private study I was wrong.

      • Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 8:03 pm

        I’m not dividing anything. I’m simply challenging your unfounded nonsense about Alice’s dad being passionately concerned about the prospect of her rotting in hell eternally. Try learning to read.

    • Alice Spicer May 2, 2017 at 9:32 pm

      I am who God says I am, and His opinion of me is the one that matters. That’s why I can read your condemnation and let it go immediately. It doesn’t stick. Regarding my plans for reviewing my Dad’s sermon. I guess you’ll just have to wait and see. I’m working on that blog post now.

    • Mary Vanderplas May 3, 2017 at 5:36 am

      It’s those who lack authority to command attention and respect by virtue of their character and the credibility of their arguments who need to assert (loudly and repeatedly) “Listen to me!” and to play the fundamentalist “the-Bible-says-I’m-in-charge” card.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 4, 2017 at 4:18 am

      Alice,
      I am not trying to condemn you. I have just taken your experiences you’ve told on this site, recently and over the course of time, and explained to you what they mean as regards God’s opinion of you. You are not comfortable in the churches which believe the Holy Bible is inerrant, because Biblical inerrancy means everlasting torment is the final end of the unbeliever, which reality you are wrongfully fighting to extinguish. You twist words from their context toward their alternative meaning and here is one right now which you insist. You never seem to say everlasting torment, but you write eternal torment, and yet you had argued terribly that eternal doesn’t always mean eternal. You insist on setting up your straw man. 2 Corinthians 4: 2 refers to the hidden things of dishonesty, walking in craftiness, handling the word of God deceitfully as something people are capable of doing and that’s been your practice with ET even going all the way to try to prove the Lake of Fire is remedial. Your favorite passion is “erasing hell” and you do it by “wresting” Biblical Scripture, using its words deceitfully, as per 2 Peter 3: 16 which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.That text describes you as “unstable” and you’ve demonstrated your inability to cope with the ET doctrine in the churches to the point of getting yourself kicked out; and worse yet, you try to get back in under the guise of insistent dialogue. The bottom line, Alice, is you cannot be saved without BELIEVING every word of God. That means every word of the Holy Bible is correct even to its spelling in the first Hebrew and Greek texts and we have many honest translations of the Hebrew/Greek Bible, so you don’t need to be a Hebrew/Greek scholar to get the proper meaning; you just need to discern biased translations, because there are some of them, though they are in an obvious minority. You are fighting against God, especially His word regarding the permanence of retribution, and you cannot win. I have one sibling and both he and his wife also fought against God when I first introduced them to the Gospel, but they eventually recognized what they were doing and gave in to God’s loving grace and got saved. The Apostle Paul under the name Saul also fought against God, but submitted to His grace. You can too.

      So could Mary if she’d bury the hatchet she carries against your dad. Like she thinks he abandoned his family and doesn’t pray for them to get saved. Since she is Bible-less, she doesn’t know the text about having no honor in your own country/house {Matthew 13: 57} and the 1 Peter 3 text telling wives to win their husbands without a word, just by conduct. (That’s why your dad doesn’t always preach to you-all.) She’d rather use her own wisdom and ability than trust the inerrant Holy Bible as is evident from her May 3, 2017 at 5:36 am post. She’s under the condemnation of going about to establish her own righteousness {Romans 10: 3} instead of accepting the righteousness which is by faith imputed by God to His believer of His every word. She also needs to stop fighting against God and submit to every word of the Bible including male leadership in both church doctrine and organization.

      You mom needs saving, too; and that’s possible. Your dad and I pray for all three of you and the rest of your family. Why should you-all burn forever in the Lake of Fire? You-all have heard this fundamental Gospel before your family broke up while you-all were active in the Southern Baptist Church and school. You have that history/heritage. Don’t let it go to waste and you burn forever.

  • Mary Vanderplas May 4, 2017 at 1:25 pm

    Evidently, spreading lies and sowing discord are part of your fundamentalist code of ethics. It’s what you do routinely – the mark of your character. The truth is I scarcely know John Dean from personal contact. I know nothing about his religious beliefs, which have never been articulated on this website (at least in the time that I’ve been going on here); and I experience him presently only through your obsessive referring to him and ostensible speaking for him. If, as you say, his reticence is due to the fact that he chooses to demonstrate his concern for his children’s spiritual condition in quiet and indirect ways, why are you making it public? Why not honor your friend’s chosen stance by keeping your mouth shut?

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 4, 2017 at 1:54 pm

      Mary,
      I seem to remember somebody else who is supposed to keep her mouth shut. See above:

      Mary Vanderplas April 28, 2017 at 7:30 am
      I see you haven’t learned anything during your time-out. You’re right back to your old ways of making insinuations about me and the company I keep. No, I won’t be engaging you on this site – not now, not ever …. As for me, from this point on, I won’t even be reading it.

      • Mary Vanderplas May 5, 2017 at 6:21 am

        You didn’t answer my question. Why are you persistently babbling about something you say your friend wants to keep private? Is it that you haven’t learned how to mind your own business? Granted, this is something that often women are better at than men are. I would urge you to work on it – for your friend’s sake as well as your own.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 4, 2017 at 2:41 pm

      Mary,
      See above your posts
      Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm
      Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 8:03 pm

      You maligned my friend and I say it mildly that you doubt his love for his family, and then you can’t cope with my defense before his daughter. What kind of friend are you to her and her mother?

      My mother suffered under the hand of her stepmother after her birth mother died. A true Cinderella story, but she wasn’t so kind as Cinderella in her opinion of her stepmother and she had the company of her sisters sharing her opinion. Now in this reference I make a real insinuation.

      • Mary Vanderplas May 5, 2017 at 7:09 am

        If your insinuation was true, you wouldn’t have to say it.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 5, 2017 at 2:44 pm

    Alice,
    It seems to me that you and Mary are having difficulty remembering things recently. (Alice Spicer May 1, 2017 at 8:58 pm I think that the church I attended was Fundamental Baptist) & (Mary Vanderplas May 4, 2017 at 1:25 pm The truth is I scarcely know John Dean from personal contact) Maybe yours is just uncertainty, but Mary’s is a down right denial that you should seriously consider. She confesses she only knows him through my recent posts. Her knowledge of your dad goes way back to when she befriended your mom. Way back then, I wrote on this site that their friendship was improperly intimate and she accused me of getting that from your dad. Way back before that while my wife was alive (definitely more than six years ago), we had tried to reconnect with your mom and dad by telephone and had conversations with both of your parents separately. We also had further emails with your dad. You even had your dad write a guess blog about his missionary preparations before he actually went full time. I thought also you had him do a follow-up guess blog thereafter. He also made a comments on an article or two of yours. What’s with Mary’s denials? Marie would have had a lot to tell Mary about John, and I’m sure she would have. How can Mary deny “the drama” of those times? No, Mary is more complicit than she wants to admit and especially than that you should remember.

    Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 8:03 pm I’m not dividing anything.

    Her two comments this morning are senseless. She doesn’t understand how Matthew 13: 57 is the answer, nor who the stepmother is.

    • Mary Vanderplas May 5, 2017 at 5:54 pm

      I can count on two hands the number of times I’ve spoken with John Dean over the past 15 years. As I said, I scarcely know him from personal contact. I haven’t had any contact with him in several years now. Marie Davids doesn’t talk about the marriage that was. I haven’t read anything written by John Dean on this website in which he articulated his beliefs, much less his concern that Alice is going to hell if she doesn’t change her thinking.

      If your insinuation was true, I doubt that you’d be making it. I would hardly be perceived (ridiculously) as a threat if everyone in the family despised me. There wouldn’t be any reason whatsoever for jealousy. An outsider wouldn’t have to be enlisted to smear me. Have I mentioned that I never wanted children, that I’m happily childless (except for having a treasured four-legged baby named Sweet Pea)?

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 5, 2017 at 9:42 pm

    Alice,
    Why is it that Mary, having been a guest blogger, denies having seen your dad’s two blogs, Jealousy February 17, 2014 and First Impressions on the Mission Field May 20, 2013, since they are listed under Guest Blogs where hers are also listed? In the Impressions blog he referenced Westwood Missionary Baptist Church in Winter Haven as his supporting church and she could have easily driven there to find out what they as Baptists believe. If she doesn’t know what they, and consequently your dad, believe and practice, why is she so insistent I have no right to write that your dad is concerned about you burning in hell and therefore is praying for you? I’m a like faith Baptist to Westwood and your dad and certainly know our Baptist tradition better than she does. Perhaps even you might remember, after you-all moved from N. J. to Florida, in the Baptist church and school where your parents worked, the church had Wednesday evening Bible study & prayer meetings for both adults and youth and even young people prayed for their friends and family members to get saved and avoid hell, just like the adults did. Maybe Mary, being childless, doesn’t understand parental concern that their children do not end up in hell. That’s a little hard to believe because I remember somebody else against hell commenting on this site using the gross news about a mother killing her early children before they reached the age of accountability just so they won’t go to hell. Do you remember? Funny how Mary doesn’t remember. See, if she did remember, she couldn’t complain about me say your dad loves you and is praying for you. So why is she so insistent I cannot make that claim, especially since I’ve already given clear the reason that I know, better than her, what your dad believes and practices. HER point is that your dad doesn’t care if you go to hell or he doesn’t believe what he preaches, just like you accused that pastor you accidentally heard and indited with Matthew 23: 15. Mary was in her glory when you posted that verse and she’d delight to have you do likewise when you review your dad’s sermon, but she’ll deny it.

    Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 8:03 pm I’m not dividing anything.

    Lanny A. Eichert May 2, 2017 at 5:15 am Alice, Are you going to denounce your dad equally with Matthew 23:15 or will you cut him the slack

    Alice, your dad is praying for you and he certainly doesn’t want you in hell, not even for a decade.

    • Alice Spicer May 13, 2017 at 7:45 pm

      Lanny, please tell me what any of this has to do with Accidental Church. Why are you trying to create problems between me and my Dad or me and Mary? Don’t you have better things to do with your time? If you believe so strongly in hell, then why are you putting so much effort into writing lengthy comments on one of a millions of blogs, comments that probably will only be seen by a handful of people. Wouldn’t your time be better spent on a busy street corner, standing on a soapbox and preaching to passersby? Please either comment on the blog post content or keep your nasty, judgmental comments to yourself. You are TROLLING this site. Do you know what an internet TROLL is? If not, look it up. If so, then stop behaving like an internet TROLL. I genuinely want to engage in meaningful discussion with you and others who strongly disagree with what I write and believe. But I’m not going to throw everyone else who would like to comment under the bus by subjecting them to your off-topic, HATEFUL discourse about people you know very little about. You knew my parents DECADES ago. You’ve never even met Mary. This is a blog comment section, not the Jerry Springer show.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2017 at 2:02 am

        Alice,
        You made two indictments in your blog:
        1. Deep down, he doesn’t really believe in his own doctrine.
        2. He believes his own doctrine, but he’s ashamed of it.
        Neither he, nor your daddy, deserves them from such ignorant persons as you and Mary who don’t know the Fundamental Baptist heart. Your whole family has departed from that mindset and picked-up Mary along the way, who has reinforced your rejection of the truth. Accidental Church is your blatantly rebellious statement. You attempt to inaccurately reign me in, yet you give Mary a free pass. I’ve done nothing but dealt with yours and Mary’s mindset which has been revealed on this site in this blog and all the past ones of similiar nature. I’ve offered both of you, and even Stephen, the solution and what you must do to exercise it. That’s all within the scope of the discussion (the fundamentalist’s Gospel you ridicule). That’s far from trolling or using hate speech. You opened the subject this way and I dealt with it.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2017 at 4:47 pm

        Alice, you are beyond unbelievably dense when you ask what any of this has to do with Accidental Church after I wrote: “HER point is that your dad doesn’t care if you go to hell or he doesn’t believe what he preaches, just like you accused that pastor you accidentally heard and indicted with Matthew 23: 15”. You’re trying to complain that the fundy doesn’t follow through on what he believes and when I go the full nine yards you ask if I don’t have something better to do. How often have I sought the salvation of your soul on this site and I’m doing it again and just as always you don’t like it. I’m no different than your dad or that Fundamental Baptist preacher, but you continue to complain we don’t believe it or are ashamed of it. I justified both that preacher and your daddy; and justified myself by inviting you to get saved rather than letting you go to hell. I invested the time to write lengthy comments because I care and you don’t want me to care so you’ll be able to complain about that. You complain BOTH ways, so there’s no satisfying you, because you want to chronically complain and be licking your wounds to gain the sympathy of others. Get over already, Alice; you’re a broken record.

        Mary is the one that should be your grief. She’s the one that said your daddy doesn’t care. She claims to not know your daddy, but she assumes enough knowledge of him to accuse him of not caring if you go to hell. That’s a wicked contradiction just like your theoretical evaluation of that preacher you condemned. Don’t you have enough loyalty toward your daddy to be offended by Mary’s false accusation? It surely doesn’t appear so to me. And you ask “what any of this has to do with Accidental Church” like you don’t know your daddy models that church with me and that preacher. Mary’s the one that objected to me writing that your daddy loves you and is praying for you so that you’d get saved and avoid hell. She’s the offense that started this matter by her supposed ignorant comments and she’s your recent support mechanism that perpetuates your wrong anti-hell position so evident in this blog. Both of you need to get righted or you need to remove yourself from her influence and get yourself righted.

        How amusing. You say I don’t know your dad. Mary claims she doesn’t know your dad. Yet Mary accuses your dad of not caring while I claim he does care; and with whom do you side? Mary.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2017 at 6:29 pm

    HER point is that your dad doesn’t care if you go to hell

    Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm

    I’ve been on this site for six years now, and I have yet to read anything written by Alice’s “daddy” about what he believes or that he’s praying for her eternal salvation. If this was a matter of grave concern to him, as you claim to know that it is, then why wouldn’t he be on here expressing and defending his firmly held views and passion for his misguided daughter’s preservation from the fires of hell. I can’t imagine why you should have to speak for him if what you claim has even a modicum of truth in it.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 15, 2017 at 9:05 pm

      Alice, here it is right below your complaint. Mary’s May 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm. Put it in context right under my May 2, 2017 at 5:15 am concern to you about your review of your dad’s sermon, which I closed with an innocent affectionate statement of your daddy’s piety: “Your own daddy, too, is praying for your salvation, so don’t pull Matthew 23:15 on him.” Mary goes ballistic and cannot contain herself and puts my reference to your daddy in quotation marks. God forbid that I should encourage your AFFECTIONS for your daddy’s concern for your salvation or that I should even indicate to you that he is concerned. She must preserve at all costs your religious alienation from your father’s religion and when I make her intentions known to you, she publishes that May 2, 2017 at 8:03 pm denial, explaining: “I’m simply challenging your unfounded nonsense about Alice’s dad being passionately concerned about the prospect of her rotting in hell eternally.” Alice, just because your daddy didn’t write it out for everybody to see on this site in the last six years especially for Mary to see doesn’t mean it isn’t so. I am able to put it publicly in writing because I share your daddy’s faith and can advocate for him and that’s why I took the effort to explain our history, meaning yours as well as your parents with my wife and I. It is wrong for you to write: “You knew my parents DECADES ago” implying I no longer know your father, that he has changed, and is not the same man I once knew. Certainly he has change and matured in his faith and is probably much more pious than when I knew him decades ago and that’s the way it should be. The evidence is his full-time commitment to missionary activity: selling out to Jesus. That certainly doesn’t mean he has abandoned his concern for your soul to minister to the indigenous people of Colombia. Mary’s wrong: there’s no nonsense in his passionate concerns. And whether or not Mary intends to be divisive, she is. Mary is bad news when it comes to your whole family loving your daddy. She can’t help herself and that’s why I included what you all, including Mary, must do to get saved and become true Christians instead of theoretical ones. So read and heed what I have written (when neither you nor Mary interrupted me) May 7 – 13 and especially listen to the songs. Perhaps you might get saved.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2017 at 3:00 am

        SO WHERE IS IT, ALICE? Where’s your confession that Mary’s wrong? Where’s your confession that you know your daddy loves you and is praying for you to not go to hell? Do you mean to tell me and your readers your daddy doesn’t care? Is that what you want people to know? Isn’t that why you wrote Accidental Church? To attempt to implicitly ruin your own daddy and his church to the glory of Mary Vanderplas’ encouragement? To glorify yourself with the pity of your readers? To appeal to fleshly human emotions instead of the Holy Spirit of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible? To promote liberalism and shame fundamentalism? To ridicule those who believe everlasting torment is the final estate of the one who dies without confessing Christ? If not, WHERE’S YOUR CONFESSION THAT MARY’S WRONG AND YOUR DADDY CARES?

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 7, 2017 at 4:25 pm

    Alice and Mary,
    So now where do we go from here? There’s always repentance.

    In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. {2 Timothy 2: 25 & 26}

    Alice, your daddy certainly loves you and since he does, he cares about the possibility of you ending up in hell as he does your brothers and your sisters and your mommy, therefore he does pray for his whole family. You cannot get by “unscathed” because you’ve got to confess a remedial Lake of Fire just doesn’t work and that you’ve bent Scripture to try to make it so. Stop fighting God and admit the perfectness of His written judgments; that He is perfect to have all those nice people, you’ve known who have died without confessing Christ, in hell awaiting judgment and the Lake of Fire without remedy. Pray then that you might go full faith in Jesus as your Lord and Master. See how I’ve written it next for Mary and follow it.

    Mary, There is forgiveness with God if you will believe every spelt word of His Holy Bible and will trust that Jesus did indeed attach your sins to His own body while He was on the cross {1 Peter 2: 24} Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree. {1 Peter 2: 24} That’s how much Jesus loved Mary.
    For God so loved Mary Vanderplas, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (Mary Vanderplas) believeth in him (Mary Vanderplas) should not perish, but have everlasting life. {John 3: 16}
    What should you do? See the Revelation 3: 20 Jesus said:
    Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    It is okay to be a woman since “any man” is “any certain one” regardless of gender. You can do it, Mary, if you are willing to go the whole ball of wax. There’s no holding back anything with God: He’ll take all of you or none of you; therefore you must take all of God or none of Him; the whole of His book the Holy Bible perfectly inerrant, all of it.

    I’ve been praying for you, two, and for Stephen if he’ll also read and heed.
    For God so loved Stephen Helbig, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (Stephen Helbig) believeth in him (Stephen Helbig) should not perish, but have everlasting life. {John 3: 16}

    Again, Alice,
    For God so loved Alice Dean Spicer, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever (Alice Dean Spicer) believeth in him (Alice Dean Spicer) should not perish, but have everlasting life. {John 3: 16}

    I wish Tim would read these blogs too and get saved.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 10, 2017 at 7:54 pm

    Alice, Mary,
    Repentance, how do you come by it? And is it possible not to get it?

    In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. {2 Timothy 2: 25 & 26}

    if God peradventure will give them repentance

    What about Esau?

    Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. {Hebrews 12: 15 – 17}

    for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears

    Alice & Mary, Esau was not able to repent though he tried very hard to do so. Only God gives the ability to repent. Both of you could “fail of the grace of God” and not be able to repent. You, two, needed to be begging God in prayer asking Him for the grace of repentance while Alice’s daddy and I also pray for you two, or else you’ll perish in hell fire in your unbelief without remedy. In your unbelief have opposed your own daddy and so has Mary reinforced your opposition. Get repentance, both of you, before it is past time.

    Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: {Isaiah 55: 6}

    You may not have long or even another chance.

    (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) {2 Corinthians 6: 2}

    Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 11, 2017 at 6:39 pm

    O Jesus, Thou art standing, outside the fast closed door,
    In lowly patience waiting to pass the threshold o’er:
    Shame on us, Christian brothers, His Name and sign who bear,
    O shame, thrice shame upon us, to keep Him standing there!

    O Jesus, Thou art knocking; and lo, that hand is scarred,
    And thorns Thy brow encircle, and tears Thy face have marred:
    O love that passeth knowledge, so patiently to wait!
    O sin that hath no equal, so fast to bar the gate!

    O Jesus, Thou art pleading in accents meek and low,
    “I died for you, My children, and will you treat Me so?”
    O Lord, with shame and sorrow we open now the door;
    Dear Savior, enter, enter, and leave us nevermore.

    Words: Will­iam W. How, 1867:
    Music: St. Edith, Jus­tin H. Knecht, 1799, and Ed­ward Hus­band, 1871

    This is an hymn I sang in the 1950’s in my teen years in the Reformed Church before I was saved and it stirred my heart because I suspected Jesus wasn’t in my heart and that church didn’t teach that necessity clearly. I sensed I was missing something, but didn’t know what. I sensed I was guilty and dirty before God, but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I knew John 3: 16, could quote it, and could sing it, but didn’t know it meant Lanny.

    That’s why in a previous post, Alice, Mary, and Stephen, I quoted it with each of your names in place of the whosoever. It wasn’t until when I was 22 years old somebody did that for me and that became my day of salvation, my accepted time, the day I opened the door and Jesus came into my heart as my Lord and Master and Savior.

    Remember Jesus must be all three or He will be none of those. He must be the Potter and we must be the clay in EVERY area of our lives. That includes our theology and emotions. We have no right to judge God as mean-hearted toward the unbeliever for keeping him in the torturous Lake of Fire everlastingly without remedy after he dies without confessing Christ.

    For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. {Romans 3: 3 & 4}

    “thy sayings” are the Holy Bible. The Holy Bible justifies God, not human opinion no matter how it twists Bible words. So WHEN are you going to stop fighting God’s Holy Bible, WHEN will you stop keeping Jesus stand outside, HOW LONG will you keep your door “fast closed”?

    The Savior is waiting to enter your heart
    Why don’t you let Him in?
    There’s nothing in this world to keep you apart
    Why don’t you answer Him?
    Time after time
    He has waited before
    And now He is waiting again
    To see if you are willing
    To open the door
    Oh, how He wants to come in
    If you’ll take one look
    At the Savior, my friend
    You’ll find His arms open wide
    Receive Him, and all of your darkness will end
    Within your heart He’ll abide
    Time after time
    He has waited before
    And now He is waiting again
    To see if you are willing
    To open the door
    Oh, how He wants to come in

    Written by Ralph Carmichael

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 12, 2017 at 6:39 pm

    Alice,
    Isn’t there the least sorrow in your heart over Mary’s malicious denial that your daddy loves you and doesn’t want you to go to hell and that he is praying passionately for you to that extent? Or are you so consumed with your own denial of everlasting torment that the reputation of your lovely friends who died without confessing Christ is more important to you than your own daddy’s reputation or any other fundamentalist preacher’s reputation preaching a hell fire Gospel? I mean, Mary has even said not “a modicum of truth in it.” {Mary Vanderplas May 2, 2017 at 12:17 pm} Alice, you should be sorry that Mary has such a low view of you daddy’s compassion for your soul; and if you, yourself, also have such a low view of your own daddy, you should be ashamed and even more sorrowful for yourself. You’re hard-hearted if you “read (my) condemnation and let it go immediately” {Alice Spicer May 2, 2017 at 9:32 pm}. I’ve chosen to use the words, sorrow, sorrowful, and sorry, for good reason and I’m hopeful.

    For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. {2 Corinthians 7: 10}

    Mary should be sorry that she so obviously exposed her maliciousness toward your dad; and I’d like to have hope that hers would be godly sorrow unto a Biblical salvation.

    PS the previous post’s Ralph Carmichael song can be found on youtube by Google search, if you’d like to hear it.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 13, 2017 at 7:00 pm

    O what a wonderful, wonderful day – day I will never forget;
    After I’d wandered in darkness away, Jesus my Saviour I met.
    O what a tender, compassionate friend – He met the need of my heart;
    Shadows dispelling, With joy I am telling, He made all the darkness depart.

    Chorus:
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul,
    When at the cross the Saviour made me whole;
    My sins were washed away –
    And my night was turned to day –
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul!

    Born of the Spirit with life from above into God’s fam’ly divine,
    Justified fully thru Calvary’s love, O what a standing is mine!
    And the transaction so quickly was made when as a sinner I came,
    Took of the offer of grace He did proffer – He saved me, O praise His dear name!

    Chorus:
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul,
    When at the cross the Saviour made me whole;
    My sins were washed away –
    And my night was turned to day –
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul!

    Now I’ve a hope that will surely endure after the passing of time;
    I have a future in heaven for sure, there in those mansions sublime.
    And it’s because of that wonderful day when at the cross I believed;
    Riches eternal and blessings supernal from His precious hand I received.

    Chorus:
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul,
    When at the cross the Saviour made me whole;
    My sins were washed away –
    And my night was turned to day –
    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul!

    Heaven came down and glory filled my soul!

    Again, on line find the song to hear it.
    CONVERSION is a reality you two, Alice & Mary, haven’t yet known. The Mormons try to counterfeit it with their “burning in the bosom”, but they don’t know it. Without conversion a person is hell-bound and not saved. Church songs (hymns) are what God uses to awake the soul to its need. From the intimacy of a relationship with Christ to a lack of true worship, the soul is made to feel its emptiness and need of conversion. Pray God will grant you repentance unto salvation. Earnestly beg Him for it. There’s nothing in the world so grand as God’s salvation. Seek it like searching for gold. It happens instantly, just like finding gold. Either you found it or you didn’t. It is not a slow process.

    Remember Matthew 7: 14 (see find)
    Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

    But don’t forget verse 13
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Because if you don’t find the right gate (repentance) you’ll burn for eternity. That’s fact: Jesus spoke those words as well as Matthew 4: 4

    But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

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