Whistling Pines’ Barbie God: A Response from a Believer with a Voice

Whistling Pines’ Barbie God: A Response from a Believer with a Voice

Why the System Isn’t Working

One reason I stopped regularly attending church was that my eyes were opened to how everything about the system, its history, hierarchy, order of worship, timed sermons, salaries, etc. were all working together to suppress the Spirit of God.  This, in itself, is not why I stopped regularly attending.  After all, BELIEVERS ARE the church, so it follows that if believers feel that the system they’ve adopted for their gatherings isn’t working, then BELIEVERS ARE responsible to make the necessary changes, right?  I and others tried to take baby steps in the right direction at the First Baptist Church of Umatilla, and we were met with fierce opposition from people who were used to and comfortable with the way things have always been. That’s why I was so excited about leaving FBCU and starting a brand new church called NorthPointe Fellowship.  It was a private joke among the staff that our motto ought to be, “NorthPointe Fellowship: We’re not like that.”

Looking back, I have to laugh at our naïvety, thinking that we were actually going to create a church where the Spirit of God was not systematically suppressed.  It was doomed from the beginning for many reasons, but the foremost of those reasons is that we had a one-speaker/many-listeners set up.  We had no idea that furniture arrangement could say so much about how we were expected to relate to one another.  Frank Viola explains this phenomena in his book Pagan Christianity:

Go into any given church building and […] Ask yourself what objects are higher and which are lower.  Ask yourself what is at the front and what is at the back. […] Ask yourself how easy or hard it would be for a church member to speak where he is seated so that all may see and hear him. […] This arrangement makes it nearly impossible for one worshipper to look into the face of another.  Instead, it creates a sit-and-soak form of worship that turns functioning Christians into “pew potatoes.”   To state it differently, the architecture emphasizes fellowship between God and His people via the pastor!

Once I discovered that NorthPointe Fellowship was quickly becoming a clone of FBCU, repeating the same mistakes, I took the same attitude that I did at FBCU, that is, BELIEVERS ARE the church, so it follows that if believers feel that the system they’ve adopted for their gatherings isn’t working, then BELIEVERS ARE responsible to make the necessary changes, right?  But the system, brilliant in its dark and deceptive way, does not permit change.  I say that it is brilliant in a dark and deceptive way because, by appearances only, it changes all the time.  New styles of worship music.  Dressing up or dressing down.  Co-pastors or guest speakers.  Testimonial Sunday.  Children’s church invades big church and takes over.  Meet in a park.  But the basic model that does not change is that the big-mouth/pastor/authority/few dictate what the big-ear/congregation/submissive/many may believe and teach.  In this kind of system, believers are UNABLE to make the necessary changes.

A well-intended but terribly misguided woman at NPF actually told me, “You are no longer welcome here.”  When I told her that she didn’t have the power to kick people out of the church, she said, “I will oppose you in every way I possibly can.”  Her opposition was effective, to say the least.  One by one, people who I had known and trusted as friends for over a decade approached me to tell me that they wanted to have nothing to do with me.  They used her same language and mannerisms.  When I realized that the spiritual bullying was only going to get worse and that no one was going to do anything to address the situation, I left.  Really, I had no choice but to leave, because every Sunday afternoon and evening felt like I was recovering from assault.  I should have felt defeated and depressed, but instead, I felt relieved.  I had no idea how God was going to fix the system, but I knew that He wasn’t expecting me to keep on staying there and trying.

Fast forward six months or so.  I posted a video on youtube called Jesus Saves Everyone.  After I left the system, I recognized more and more each day that God was so much bigger than the system.  My belief that God would fix the system was evolving and growing – yes, He would fix the system, but not in the way I expected He would.  God’s way of fixing is different than the human way of fixing.  Just a casual glance at the cross should be enough to establish that God’s victory comes by way of defeat, humility, and death.  The system gave me a title, “prophet,” and God did not act in my behalf when the system decided to remove that title.  The system gave me a career, “administrative assistant to the pastor,” and God did not act in my behalf when the system fired me.  The system gave me a position, “worship leader,” and God did not act in my behalf when the system refused to let me hold a microphone.  The system gave me a social standing, “trusted friend,” and God did not act in my behalf when the system gave me a new social standing of contempt, “liar, wolf in sheep’s clothing, heretic.”  In the eyes of the system, I am defeated, humiliated, and dead in my spiritual walk.

But Jesus did not remain in the grave.  He did not experience decay. God demonstrated His power in that Jesus got up and walked out of the tomb, alive.  Death was defeated by way of death.  And Jesus invites all believers to participate with Him in His death and resurrection.  We don’t get to take part in His resurrection without first taking part in His death.  Throughout history, most believers have only been willing to participate in His death to a certain extent.  For all intents and purposes, they’ve gone to the Garden of Gethsemane, but they haven’t been to that lonely place Jesus went.  Jesus said, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death.” He fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”  Most believers, instead of falling to the ground as they face the prospect of dying to all their spiritual comforts, their spiritual titles, their spiritual careers, their spiritual positions, and their spiritual social standings – they’ve fallen in a different way, that is, fallen asleep, “because their eyes were heavy.”  And if they begin to awaken, their knee-jerk reaction is to draw their swords, even though Jesus said, “Put your sword back in its place, for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

What You Can Do to Fix the System

Nothing.  There is nothing you can do to fix the system.  It is set up in such a way that anyone who tries to fix the system is at best misunderstood and dismissed, at worst, demonized and outcast (supposedly in tough love).

The system Jesus put in place looks nothing like the system believers have adopted from pagan predecessors.  Jesus’s church building is made of people, not bricks and paint and carpet.  “God… does not live in temples built by hands.” (Acts 17:24)  What is said from a stage or behind a pulpit should be scrutinized and automatically suspect, because it comes from people who behave in this way: “Everything they do is done for people to see… they love the place of honor… and the most important seats in the [churches]; they love to be greeted with respect… and to be called [Pastor] by others.” (Matthew 23:5-7) Jesus’s church places importance on what is being said among the congregation: “you are not to be called [Pastor] for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers… you have one Instructor, the Messiah… For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

The system basically ignores the idea that every believer in the body has a voice and Christ is the head.  They might cite Sunday School or small groups as the time and place where every believer is given a voice, but because the of the emphasis the system places on the Sunday morning sermon and pastor(s) views, everything that is said in a Sunday School class or small group is tested against the wrong “head”.  The head is not the Sunday morning sermon and pastor(s) views, the head is Jesus Christ. Take Ephesians 4, for instance.  Notice how it is assumed that believers all don’t just sit and listen on Sunday mornings. They are involved in each other’s normal day-to-day responsibilities, getting along, pissing each other off, figuring out how to relate – this is REAL communication! Notice that the believers are not pre-approved and perfect leaders, they are liars, hot-heads, thieves, lazy people, and potty mouths.  When each of them are called to minister, it is understood that they are called as real, fallible people.  The body of Christ matures through one-on-one interaction, where everyone talks and everyone listens, and Christ is the head.  It is in the “one another-ing” that we learn how to love as God loves. Ephesians 4:25-32:

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for WE ARE ALL MEMBERS OF ONE BODY. In your anger do not sin… Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need. Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.  Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

Here’s what it would look like if you actually tried to fix the system, from within the system.  You suggest at the next church business meeting that everyone should have a chance to preach on Sunday morning, even the liars, hot-heads, thieves, lazy people, and potty mouths.  You tell them to allow an opportunity for listeners to offer opposition and rebuttal.  The pastor-head doesn’t get to wrap up the morning with his almighty opinion of what comes from God and what doesn’t, because you all are going to trust the Holy Spirit to reveal to each person what is good and right.  In fact, there should no longer even be a pastor.  And while you are at it, get rid of the building.  Just cram as many people as you can into the living rooms of anyone willing to open their homes.  At the end of the service give an opportunity for everyone to forgive each other for the bitterness, rage, anger, brawling, slander, and every form of malice that surfaced during the service.  Agree that Christ is the head, and continue your communications throughout the week on Facebook, text messages, and phone calls.  And stop calling it a service.  Call it a powwow or a get-together, but get rid of the churchy words like service and Sunday School and the like.  You’ve tried to fix the system from within.  Here’s the response – everyone at the church business meeting looks at you like you are crazy, and they burst into roaring laughter.  The pastor will thank you for your suggestion and ask you to be seated, or perhaps he will have you escorted from the meeting.  The people who want to be kind will pretend they don’t understand or dismiss you as a soft-hearted dreamer.  The people who want to murder you will make sure everyone knows how dangerous you are to the system.  Some people will be a little of both extremes.  No one will take you seriously.  The end.

The bottom line is, don’t try to fix the system that you are in, but enter into the system of Christ.  It is called the Reign of God/Heaven or the Kingdom of God/Heaven.  It is not a broken system, but it appears to be, when it is viewed through the lens of traditional thinking.  Jesus said, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”  In human terms, a system that works is a system that can be clearly defined and is easily identifiable.  A church is easy – there’s a website with the statement of faith, a list of activities, the names of people in charge, what to expect, where to go, etc.  The Reign of God is not so easy to define, because it can’t be contained within boundaries.  Or, perhaps it is just the opposite.  It is too easy to define, because the Reign of God can’t be contained within boundaries.  I guess it depends on your perspective.  It’ll either scare the hell out of you, because you can’t control it, or it will make you want to throw a party, because God is in control.

What the System Does

This blog is part one of two blogs inspired by a sermon called “Barbie God” by Pastor Scott Wiens.  Usually, when I quote verbal or written messages by people who believe in eternal torment, these people accuse me of taking their words out of context.  Since I will quote from “Barbie God” throughout the next blog, I encourage you to click here and listen to the message in its entirety.  That way you can be a fair judge of whether I have taken Scott’s words out of context.

The next blog (here is the link) will demonstrate how today’s religious system is the modern day version of the Pharisaical system, as is evidenced by the content of Scott’s sermon.  I will also encourage people (within the system or outside of it) by demonstrating how the almighty power of God completely transcends the system.  I will also offer some practical perspective about how much power the system actually has over us compared to how much power we have over the system in Christ Jesus.

Comments from members of First Baptist Church of Umatilla, former members of NorthPointe Fellowship, and current members of the The Church at Whistling Pines are especially welcomed, because God knows, you don’t have the power to stand up and speak your mind on Sunday morning.

 

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert August 13, 2012 at 12:02 am

    I can’t tell who is writing/speaking where: Alice or Scott; but the error is obvious: God established behavior in His church by appointing Elders, Bishops, Overseers, Pastors, Teachers, Deacons, and Rulers. God’s church has order and leadership. Submission is required. Novices are recognized as such. So are heretics. All that is declared in the literal perfect Holy Bible.

    Your above suggested home church model is proven false. It is NOT God’s model.

  • Stephen Helbig August 13, 2012 at 8:12 pm

    ~ Mary’s statement below is worth repeating here ~

    Mary Vanderplas says: July 25, 2012 at 6:50 pm
    “I agree that the abundant life is a present reality, something that we can experience here and now. And I agree that there is much in the “system” that is corrupt and oppressive and death-dealing, i.e., the antithesis of the abundant life that Jesus gives. However, I don’t think that the system as such is beyond hope … My own experience in the institutional church has been mixed. On the one hand, I’ve experienced the death-dealing aspects … and on the other hand, I’ve experienced through my involvement in the institution the joy and freedom and fulfillment of life that God intends for all of us. In my view, the problem isn’t mainly the institution as such, but illegitimate authority within it that seeks to control, to silence alternative viewpoints, to preserve its own position at all costs, and otherwise to abuse power and oppress the very ones it is called to serve.”

    “Legitimate authority, in contrast, recognizes that leadership after the manner of Christ entails humble service, that seeking and knowing the truth is not the same as claiming doctrinal certitude and possession of the truth, and that all believers are authorized and called to be servants of God to minister to other people. I can understand and appreciate your (withering) indictment of the system. And I agree with what you say about abundant life being the gift of a relationship with Christ, which does not depend on the system. I appreciate, too, your strong conviction about the need for radical reformation of the institution – for the sake of the believers within its ranks and the not-yet-believers outside. Your words are for me a bold challenge to stand for truth and freedom and life, whatever the cost.” ~ End qoute.

    ~ Stephen says Mary’s above statement is ~ really well-expressed, truly eloquent.

    When it comes to a SYSTEM (i.e. an organization, a structure, a method), one needs to realize God is not stagnant, He is on the move to perfect that which concerns us. Many times we are satisfied with the old ways much like the Pharisees of Jesus time ~ they were satisfied with the old covenant. The church system today can also be much like the church system at the time of Luther around 1500 A.D. ~ the church system then was not willing to receive the new direction that God was leading them to, mainly Luther’s statement, “The Just shall live by faith”. Note this one truth was, and is a hallway that has led to new perspectives on many other truths so as to reform the church system for us today, ~ yet initially it was not received by the system, and Luther was labeled a heretic by that church system. I want you to look at this wonderful quote by Luther that is still permanence for us today to move forward with ~

    “I greatly longed to understand Paul’s Epistle to the Romans, and nothing stood in the way but that one expression, ‘the righteousness of God’, because I took it to mean that righteousness whereby God is righteous and deals righteously in punishing the unrighteous .. Night and day I pondered until … I grasped the truth that the righteousness of God is that righteousness whereby, through grace and sheer mercy, he justifies us by faith. Thereupon I felt myself to be reborn and to have gone through open doors into paradise. The whole of Scripture took on a new meaning, and whereas before ‘the righteousness of God’ had filled me with hate, now it became to me inexpressible sweet in greater love. This passage of Paul became to me a gateway to heaven.” – Martin Luther ( found in Eerdmans’ Handbook to the History of Christianity, p. 364.)

    Now let me say, we’ve certainly, (“hopefully”), come further along in the knowledge of “Him who saves”, for there are many issues of Life in Christ that have been made available to us since the 16th century; but understand and notice that at this time in church history ( the 16th century), the above beliefs of Luther were heresy to the church system of his day. Luther was excommunicated by Pope Leo X on 3 January 1521,. Why? I think Alice has summed it up appropriately, for it is the same system that exists in most of our church systems today.

    ~ Alice outlines the system as~
    …one-speaker/many-listeners ~ (wrong set up)…
    …the system, brilliant in its dark and deceptive way, does not permit change…
    …pastor/ (POPE)/authority/few dictate what the big-ear/congregation/submissive/many may believe and teach. In this kind of system, believers are UNABLE to make the necessary changes…
    … God is so much bigger than the system…
    …There is nothing you can do to fix the system. It is set up in such a way that anyone who tries to fix the system is at best misunderstood and dismissed, (excommunicated) at worst, demonized and outcast (labeled ~ heretic)… The system Jesus put in place looks nothing like the system believers have adopted… What is said from a stage or behind a pulpit should be scrutinized… Jesus’ church places importance on what is being said among the congregation…
    …everything that is said in a Sunday School class or small group is tested against the wrong “head”. The head is not the Sunday morning sermon and pastor(s) views, THE HEAD IS JESUS CHRIST…
    … The bottom line is, don’t try to fix the system that you are in, but enter into the system of Christ.

    At this time, let me add to the above just one more statement ~ there is no need to judge Babylon, because ‘Babylon, “the confused system” is already judged. ~ God completely transcends the system. “THE GREATEST IS LOVE” (see 1 Cor. 13 :13) (note ~ Corinthians was a church system that needed to be corrected).

    p.s. ~ I say with Alice enter in to the “System of Christ”, ~ “ the “upper synagogue” ~ which is exactly what (Heb. 10 :25) says ~ “… forsake not the “assembly”… ~ (“assembly” is “episynagōgḗ” in the Greek, – a specific “grouping together” that fulfills [builds on] the specific purpose of encouraging one another in the gathering together. Also please note the preposition “epi”: ~ which is translated as; ~ “over” ~ “57 times” in the NASB translation.) ~ (epi, ~ “on” ~ “above” ~ “over” ~ “upon”). ~ There is a church “system”, that is the “above synagogue”. It is “over” us, and “upon us”. It is “the place” where God says, ~ even two or three gathered in His name, there HE will be in their midst.

  • Mary Vanderplas August 13, 2012 at 8:31 pm

    I agree with what you say about the brokenness of the system and the difficulty/futility of trying to effect fundamental change in light of the hierarchical structure that guarantees its own preservation. I agree, too, that God can work through the rejection and persecution of faithful disciples to change the system, though I don’t think that the hostile resistance is God-ordained or God-willed. I agree that those who would be Jesus’ disciples must be willing to share his cross, i.e., to endure suffering and loss that stem from acting in ways that challenge the system, breaking down barriers and promoting equality and leadership that takes the form of humble service.

    I agree generally with what you say about Jesus’ (and Matthew’s) idea of the church, though I don’t think that Jesus was against leadership or authority as such but rather against status-seeking and outward shows of authority, as well as hierarchy and clericalism. In Matthew 23:2, Jesus is pictured as acknowledging the authority of the Jewish leadership while condemning their practice on the basis of the fact that it didn’t conform to their teaching. In the verses you cite, he does not say that there shouldn’t be leaders, only that titles which emphasize distinctions ought not to be used because all are members of the family of God.

    I think you’re right to emphasize that Christ is the head of the church and to urge that everyone in the body be allowed and encouraged to speak, though I don’t see this as being incompatible with having leaders. In Ephesians 4, it is said that Christ gave certain leadership functions to the church – including “pastors and teachers” (v. 12). Moreover, it is assumed that the believers reading the letter have been taught the apostolic faith in the context of the Christian community (vv. 20-21). I agree with what you say or imply about the pastor not being regarded as the sole or final authority and about ministry not being limited to clergy (and even about there not being a separate class of professional ministers). However, I don’t agree that the role of the pastor-teacher should be done away with; I think that pastors serve an important and God-ordained function in the life of the church. I like what you say about everyone having a chance to speak as well as to listen in the context of church gatherings, though I’m not sure I agree that this is what is being referred to in verses 25-32. It seems more likely that what the author had in mind here was the way the members related generally to one another in their daily lives as well as to neighbors who were not disciples (v. 25). I do agree, though, that believers are called to speak the truth of the faith to one another (v. 15) and that the pastor’s voice isn’t the only one worth listening to. And I think you’re right to assert that the Holy Spirit is at work in each member to enlighten and guide as he/she seeks the truth in conversation, prayer, and study with other Christians.

    While I can understand the disillusionment of those who, like you, have tried, to no avail and at considerable personal cost, to fix the system, I am not as convinced as you are that nothing can be done to effect significant change. I have read stories of congregations that have adopted new, egalitarian models of leadership and have experienced revitalization as a result. Personally, I have not given up hope, though I don’t deny either the extent of the brokenness or the challenge of dismantling the old (and Spirit-suppressing) traditions and structures. As always, your words are a needed challenge to me to consider my relationship to the system and to listen for what God is calling me to be and do.

    • admin August 14, 2012 at 2:34 pm

      Would you agree that the authority that had been given to them was taken from them?

      (“them” = the Jewish leadership in your comment: “In Matthew 23:2, Jesus is pictured as acknowledging the authority of the Jewish leadership while condemning their practice on the basis of the fact that it didn’t conform to their teaching.”)

      • Mary Vanderplas August 14, 2012 at 9:24 pm

        I would say that Jesus (and Matthew) condemned their use of the authority they had been given. Matthew’s Jesus makes it clear that they were leaders whose attitudes and practices (and interpretation of the Torah) were not in keeping with the will of God and that therefore they stood to be judged. But the leadership of the Pharisees continued after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Indeed, rabbinic Judaism, which largely reflected the tradition of the Pharisees, was going strong after the war of 66-70 and the destruction of Jerusalem. (It is more than likely that Matthew’s portrait of Jesus’ harsh critique of the religious leaders of his time reflects the conflict that his own community had with the rabbinic Pharisaism that was present in the latter part of the first century.) But that the Jewish leaders were under judgment for their unfaithfulness can’t be denied.

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2012 at 12:07 pm

    Why are you crying out against the institutional church in your so called age of enlightenment while you have claimed it hasn’t done its job for 1600 years? Don’t you see that its failure proves your all-loving all-saving god has such a poor track record over the last 2100 years in failing to make his christianity the predominate world religion? Your claim that God will save every human being and every evil spirit is proven false by how “FEW” are the people who have been saved by grace through faith since the beginning of time. If your god were intent on saving the whole world, why have so “few” been saved thus far? You must admit those saved in this life are blessed, while those you suppose are saved in the after-life are damned to your supposed remedial lake of fire which you admit is NOT pretty. Why does your loving-god decree “MANY” to the fires of hell, instead of saving them in this life? Wouldn’t saving them now be the “loving” thing for him to do? Why does he intend on torturing the remedial daylights out of “the many”? Because he deems they need it? Why can’t he save them without your lake of fire? Supposedly he did it to “the few” so why not “the many”? After all salvation is by grace through faith for EVERYBODY, isn’t it?

    Put another way, if your god were interested in saving everybody, wouldn’t you think that after more than six thousand years of human history and after over two thousand years of church history he would have saved more than fifty percent of earth’s population during their mortal lives? Why is your loving-god delaying their salvation, when he knows the extra horrific suffering it will cost “the many” he delayed to save? Doesn’t he love “the many” as much as he loves “the few”?

    Don’t you see your god’s salvation is horribly unequal, favoring his selected “few” and penalizing “the many”?

    Your god’s track record proves your amazing hope is a lie and you cannot prove otherwise, can you?

    The perfect literal Holy Bible has the answer: God has decreed “the many” are vessels of His wrath fitted for destruction and “the few” are His chosen unto glory, because His is sovereign and righteous all together. Eternal torment is Biblical truth not to be denied.

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {Hebrews 11: 6}

    Seek to believe every word, even eternal torment, because it is in the Bible. Those who don’t will have eternal torment.

    • admin August 14, 2012 at 2:32 pm

      In response to your question, “Don’t you see that its failure proves your all-loving all-saving god has such a poor track record over the last 2100 years in failing to make his christianity the predominate world religion?” – No. I don’t see that at all. The same question could be asked of the track record of the Israelites in the OT, and the question would look something like this: “Don’t you see that Israel’s long list of failures proves that God has a poor track record in failing to make His people a blessing to all nations?”

      You aren’t seeing the big picture, as usual. You are look at this age and assuming that all ages are the same.

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2012 at 7:47 pm

        Since the Great Tribulation may be the same three and an half years often repeated in description, an age may be as short as three and an half years, dear Alice. The Millennium is without doubt one thousand years as thrice repeated in Scripture. The church age of grace has been two thousand one hundred years and the age of the Law was one and an half millenniums. So just looking at a few ages, yes, they vary in length.

        The big picture is God’s use of sevens and that we are “in the last days” after having now run about six thousand years in human earthly history; and you don’t think I am aware of the big picture. There is only one big picture and it is the perfect literal Bible one, not the one of your imagination that fits your heresy.

        Your god doesn’t have enough time left to prove he is a LOVING god by saving more people from the extra horrific suffering of the lake of fire than he saves after the lake of fire. Your god has been and always will be a failure, Alice.

        The true big picture proves God saves only “the few” that trust Him in this life, and all others, “the many”, burn in eternal torments.

        The true big picture proves your ideas all false and satanic lies from the pit of hell itself. You must discard them and fly to the Truth while you still may.

        Again, I remind you, God works in sevens; six thousand years have already expired and the reign of Christ is yet to come which is the seventh and last one thousand years. Armageddon is right around the corner before the reign of Christ.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2012 at 6:09 pm

      Two different questions, Alice, as different a black and white. Israel has always been a blessing to all nations, especially since their Messiah was crucified, buried, and risen again. Salvation is of the Jews !!! Before and after the cross !!! There is only one Salvation.

      Look, dear girl, since you view “the church” as including all the believers of the Old Testament historical times as well, I also included them in the question you avoided in the second paragraph. Your god fails from Day One and that’s not speaking of only one age, dispensationally. We are in “the last days” I must remind you and God’s clock is almost run to its end of its earthly time span. Your god has very much less than half the earth years remaining to save everybody he can save in these mortal life ages. The two remaining ages are the seven years of the Great Tribulation and the millennial reign of the Jewish Messiah promised to Israel. Alice, six thousand of God’s seven thousand years for this earth are already expired. Your god has not saved anywhere near 50% of humanity in 85.7% of human history. Your god is a huge failure as being a loving saviour whom you suppose saves everyone.

      I believe you know God works according to the number seven which He has chosen to reveal His completeness. I turned seventy this passed income tax day and my life is complete, so I may not see you give up your foolishness and turn in truth to the Saviour. Please, Alice, see the failure of your false god and forsake him for the true Christ.

      After more than six thousand years of human history and after over two thousand years of church history wouldn’y your god have saved more than fifty percent of earth’s population during their mortal lives? Why is your loving-god delaying their salvation, when he knows the extra horrific suffering it will cost “the many” he delayed to save? Doesn’t he love “the many” as much as he loves “the few”? Your god has damned 86% of humanity to your remedial lake of fire torture so far, Alice, before he saves them and you think that is the work of a loving god?

      Numbers don’t lie. Change your mind and repent of this wickedness.

      • admin August 14, 2012 at 7:17 pm

        God’s time is God’s time, and I trust Him. Why do you keep using chronology arguments?

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2012 at 7:53 pm

          God’s time in Genesis 1 & 2 is twenty four solar days, dear Alice. God gave us His chronology in the perfect literal Holy Bible which we are required to believe word for word.

          You escape to your “unknowable” as an explanation which is no explanation, since God has explained it.

          • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2012 at 8:05 pm

            SEVEN twenty four HOUR solar days

            • Stephen Helbig August 15, 2012 at 11:29 am

              Lanny, the term “day”, both in the Scriptures and in common usage, is frequently used to represent a period of twelve or twenty-four hours. Having said that the “REAL Significance” throughout scripture is that, “A DAY” is any definite or special period of time. Think of this, ~ for instance, we speak of Abraham’s day, Noah’s day, Luther’s day, Washington’s day; and thus we see in the Bible the entire time of creation is called a day, where we read of “the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens” (Gen. 2:4) – a long, definite period, which includes the six other “days” of creation listed in Genesis chapter one. We can also read of “the day of temptation in the wilderness” – forty years (Heb. 3:8-9); “the day of salvation” (II Cor. 6:2); was this 2,000 years ago, or is it today, or was it at the red sea with Moses Then again we read of the “day of Christ,” the “day of judgment,” and “His day” – terms especially applicable to that glorious age of the Kingdom of Christ, in which Christ, Head and body, will reign over, rule and judge the world in righteousness, granting wonderful blessing. And of that period it is written: “He shall judge the world in righteousness and in HIS DAY shall show who is that blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords” (Acts 17:31; I Tim. 6:15).

              Lanny, the bible speaks often, ~ metaphorically ~ figuratively ~ symbolically ~ parabolic, and NOT as “perfectly” literal as you would like to proclaim

          • admin August 15, 2012 at 7:46 am

            The sun doesn’t appear until the 4th day. So the first 3 days can’t possibly be “solar”. This should set a precedent for interpretation of Genesis that the days are not meant to be interpreted as literal 24 hour days.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 15, 2012 at 12:34 pm

              Problem, Alice, with plant life existing for a non-literal day without the sun for photosynthesis within twenty-four hours.

              And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the third day. {Genesis 1: 12 & 13}

              You must believe God’s perfect literal Holy Bible or else you cannot please Him and be saved.

              But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {Hebrews 11: 6}

              Remember Genesis wasn’t written BEFORE the 4th day.

              Your inability to believe God’s words is directly linked to your deliberate refusal to accept all the people you loved who died without confessing Christ are in eternal torments right now. Your resultant constructions fail because they have inadequate time to work. Your god cannot saved everybody in a loving fashion because he has already failed to save more in this life than he leaves to supposedly save in the after-life. Your god has only one seventh of this earth’s existence left in which to save more than fifty percent of earth’s people to prove he loves them enough to spare them the extra horrific suffering it will cost them in the after-life before he saves those he delayed to save in this life. Your god is not a LOVING all saving god if he damns more to the extra horrific suffering of post-death salvation than he blesses with salvation in this life. Your god has failed to date because his christians remain an extreme minority of the world’s population and his church is in shambles. Face reality: your god is a loser big time in trying to save everybody.

              The solution for you is to accept the perfect literal Holy Bible’s eternal torment reality and its real Jesus Christ who told you Judas Iscariot is perished and the Second Death Lake of Fire that He prepared will be populated forever without remedy as He told you in closing His Revelation.

              He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. {Revelation 22: 11}

  • […] part two of two blogs inspired by a sermon called “Barbie God” by Pastor Scott Wiens.  Here is the link to the first blog.  Usually, when I quote verbal or written messages by people who believe in eternal torment, these […]

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  • Patrick Strickland August 16, 2012 at 6:07 pm

    This is the first time I have visited your blog and I must say thank you for clear easy to understand post. I have listened to many of your videos on youtube and decided to come visit your site. This is the first one I have read and I would agree with what you have written… Unfortunately the pastors opinion which men taught Him to believe concerning what they think the bible says, they have elevated that opinion above the very Word of God. When I say Word of God I am not speaking about the bible as being the Word of God. Scripture contains what God has said in the past but to me it is not the word of God. Only God speaking it to us and teaching us what He meant by what He had written is the Word of God. The Word of God is what is now proceeding out of the mouth of God. The word of God is spirit, life and is Christ; not dead letter written with ink upon a page; where men systems argue with one another on what they THINK IT MEANS AND what they accept as truth.

    Religion has become nothing less then a smorgabord where if we want their approval we get to pick and choose only what our denomination, our particular sect approves. Anything not approved and you are automitaclly a false prophet, a devil, deceived and seeking to deceive the sheep of God. And if you continue to eat the unapproved bread then they have no choice but to try to use scare tactics to get you back in line. “You are going to hell forever if you don’t straighten up.”

    Thank God the He is love and that Love never fails!! We all have been given an annointing that is leading us into ALL truth and we do not need any man to teach us truth. All we need to do is just spend time in His precious presence, eating what He shows US is truth. Thank God in His time all will recognize that not only does he want to be ALL IN ALL but that HE is actually Working ALL IN ALL

    1Co 12:6 KJV And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh ALL IN ALL.

    And when we all come together let us each share the truth He teachs us in love and humility. I appreciate that you recognize this glorious truth. Keep up the great work

    Grace and peace Patrick

    • admin August 17, 2012 at 12:22 am

      Patrick, thanks for checking out the blog and for your comments. “And when we all come together let us each share the truth He teachs us in love and humility.” – I see this happening more and more, but mostly outside the “box”. It is wonderful to discover what united in love is really about – disagreeing, sometimes on some pretty important things, but united in love anyhow.

  • […] is the fourth blog in this series.  Here are the links for the first blog, the second blog, and the third […]

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