Awakening, by Asia Samson

Awakening, by Asia Samson

If you’ve been following this blog long enough, you may recall reading Java Jives: The Asia Project.  Here’s an excerpt:

“God, I want a penis the size of a forearm with a clenched fist…” is not your typical Sunday morning prayer.  But Asia Samson, a poet and cancer survivor who calls himself “God’s faithful servant”, is not your typical minister.

Asia finds purpose in suffering, and this is very evident to his audience.  About a month and a half ago, Asia’s sister had to have brain surgery.  She was recuperating at home and was expected to recover completely when she suddenly experienced complications, fell into a coma, and within a few short days, she passed away.  I wondered to myself how Asia might respond, especially after seeing status updates about his faith being shaken to the core.   A little over a week ago, Asia posted, “Today’s the 40th day of my sister’s death. In Catholicism, it’s when we pray to God to let her into heaven.”

From a theological perspective, there may be some (protestant evangelicals, fundamentalists) who scoff at the idea that I believe Asia is a “minister,” as in “called by God,” because first, he prays for the post-mortem salvation of his sister, and second, he doesn’t mention that Jesus Christ is the only hope for anyone who would enter into the reign of God.  To the first objection I would respond that there are some concepts in which the Catholics are closer to the truth than the Protestants, and vice-versa.  To the second objection I don’t need to respond, because the Asia Project website does it for me:

Doesn’t this remind you of what the Apostle Paul wrote?

My counsel is this: Live freely, animated and motivated by God’s Spirit. Then you won’t feed the compulsions of selfishness. For there is a root of sinful self-interest in us that is at odds with a free spirit, just as the free spirit is incompatible with selfishness. These two ways of life are antithetical, so that you cannot live at times one way and at times another way according to how you feel on any given day. Why don’t you choose to be led by the Spirit and so escape the erratic compulsions of a law-dominated existence?

 It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on…

But what happens when we live God’s way? He brings gifts into our lives, much the same way that fruit appears in an orchard—things like affection for others, exuberance about life, serenity. We develop a willingness to stick with things, a sense of compassion in the heart, and a conviction that a basic holiness permeates things and people. We find ourselves involved in loyal commitments, not needing to force our way in life, able to marshal and direct our energies wisely…

Each of us is an original…

Live creatively, friends. If someone falls into sin, forgivingly restore him, saving your critical comments for yourself. You might be needing forgiveness before the day’s out. Stoop down and reach out to those who are oppressed…

Make a careful exploration of who you are and the work you have been given, and then sink yourself into that. Don’t be impressed with yourself. Don’t compare yourself with others. Each of you must take responsibility for doing the creative best you can with your own life.

We become who God created us to be in the same way that babies mature into adults.  We babble before we speak words.  We combine our words incorrectly until we learn how to form complete sentences.  We crawl before we walk.  We stumble along until we learn how to keep our balance.  We drink milk before we have teeth.  We learn to chew on tiny, soft pieces until we are able to eat a steak.  We do the best we can and rejoice in a hope that is not disappointed, the hope that He will finish what He starts in us.  The same is true of suffering.  Some of us may believe we are spiritually mature, but when we experience some devastating loss, we learn that we are infants.  The scriptures are loaded with stories of people who became giants in the faith only after having been trained by hardship, having been oppressed by others, or having suffered in some other way.  For more on that, read Hebrews 11.  As to whether God simply permits unthinkable loss or orchestrates it, whether we can understand it this side of the grave or it must remain a mystery, if there is purpose in it or if it is the result of living in a creation that has gone renegade, these are all ideas that are being explored in this blog series called Evil, Suffering, and the Crisis of Faith: Evil, Suffering, and the Crisis of Faith (Guest Blogger Mary Vanderplas), The Shaking of the FoundationsThe Impossible Chess MatchThe Climax of All MisnomersRoad Hazards, and The Soul’s Complaint, based on the book, What Shall We Say? by Thomas G. Long.  This blog is the seventh in this series.

Click the link below to hear Asia’s spoken word poetry dedication to his sister and see a slideshow.  I wanted to include his testimony in this series, because Asia is familiar with suffering and effortlessly exposes its emotional core.  His poem informs us of what it’s like to collapse under the weight of believing God for something and realizing that God has something else in mind.  For him, the tension of that moment gives way to resignation at first, and then hope for something more from the One Who is able to do more than we can ever ask or imagine – an awakening, from winter to spring, from death to life.

Next blog in this series: Running a Thousand Miles for Freedom

 

Comments
  • Pattie September 19, 2012 at 6:46 am

    This was very beautiful! Thanks for sharing! God works in mysterious ways. I love the very word awakening!

  • Mary Vanderplas September 19, 2012 at 8:21 pm

    What a powerful telling of the family’s journey through the darkness of his sister’s tragic death. I can only imagine the pain of both the experience itself and the remembering and telling of it.

    Regarding his “take” on this terrible event as reflected in his poem, I don’t hear him “realizing that God has something else in mind,” as though this for-all-appearances-untimely death were part of God’s plan. What I hear him doing is making a bold affirmation of faith in the face of the inexplicable: affirming that God can and will bring good even from (or despite) this horrible evil, that, for his sister and for his family, there will come springtime, light, life, joy, by the power of God. To say this is not, in my view, the same as saying that God purposed it. It is, rather, to acknowledge that God can redeem even that which he does not purpose (or defeat it and bring healing) and, on the basis of this, to have hope, trusting God’s powerful love.

    I continue to resist any suggestion that suffering is a necessary condition for good, a necessary condition for spiritual formation. As plausible as it might sound on the surface to say that God purposes suffering as a means of transforming our character and facilitating our growth into maturity, I agree with Tom Long that such an approach to the problem of suffering and evil is flawed – and finally untenable. In the first place, as Long points out, it fails to solve the problem of absurd evil, evil which defies all rational ability to explain in terms of its having some redemptive value. In the second place, it makes God the author of evil and suffering. A God who fashions a world such that, in order for his larger ends to be achieved, evil and suffering must be inflicted is not a good God who can be trusted to act benevolently toward his creatures. As Long puts it, tellingly, “A God who requires or allows a child to be tortured as a necessary part of redeeming the world is the author of evil and a moral monster. Such a view of evil and God is not like a parent saying to a child before emergency surgery, ‘This may be painful, but it is to save your life, and you will understand it one day.’ It is like a parent placing a hot iron on the face of a child and saying, ‘You will understand this someday.’ No ‘someday’ can fully account for such an act, and a God who parents like that cannot be trusted. More specifically, such a God is not the one revealed in Jesus Christ.” (pp. 86-7)

    That good sometimes does come out of suffering, that suffering sometimes does lead to our learning and maturing spiritually, that people who have suffered much do sometimes give testimony to its formative effect on their character, that spiritual giants often are people who have endured great struggles – these things, in my view, do not make suffering and evil good, a necessary part of God’s plan for our growth or for any other end.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 20, 2012 at 2:00 pm

      Here is another ALL things for you to ponder, but is is written to and for ONLY God’s saints and none others. The “many” on their way to eternal torment have no such assurance or promise from God. They are left to the consequences of human depravity.

      And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. {Romans 8: 28}

      • Patrick Strickland September 23, 2012 at 4:06 pm

        Hi Lonnie Check out the context a few verses before plus the verse after the one you quoted.

        Rom 8:18- For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) BECAUSE THE CREATION ITSELF ALSO SHALL BE DELIVERED FROM THE BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION INTO THE LIBERTY OF THE GLORY OF THE SONS OF GOD. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the placing as sons, to wit, the redemption of our body. (24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? (25) But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (26) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. (27) And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (29) For whom he did foreknow,( NOW WHO DID HE NOT FOREKNOW?) he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

        All things are working together for good to those who love Him right now who are called to be conformed into the image of His Son. And once they become fully manifested as sons of God then they will bring ALL CREATION INTO THE SAME LIBERTY OF THE GLORY THAT THEY THE SONS OF GOD POSSESS IN THE GLORY OF THEIR FATHER WHICH GLORY CHANGES THEM FROM GLORY INTO GLORY EVEN AS BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

        Now that is a lot more people who will partake of the hope of salvation then you think it does. first the few who will be conformed into the image of the son and then manifested as sons of God to the world in the unlimited glory of their father, then they will bring ALL creation into the very same glory they have. What a glorious promise for us who are being conformed to the image of His Son. What a responsibility laid out for us to be a part of! It humbles me every time I think about His glorious plan.

        Grace and Peace Patrick

  • Stephen Helbig September 20, 2012 at 12:42 pm

    “God’s faithful servant”, is a title worthy of honor and well pleasing before the Lord. One can See exactly what a faithful servant entails in God’s “Hall of Faith” ~ Hebrews 11, as Alice mentions in her blog, ~ “The scriptures are loaded with stories of people who became giants in the faith only after having been trained by hardship, having been oppressed by others, or having suffered in some other way”. ~ and all these are pointing to what a FAITHFUL SERVANT IS in overcoming. Ah, this is the faith of a perfect man ~ PERFECT FAITH ~ trusting in God’s goodness and faithfulness, and knowing that God has everything in control, that ALL is according to HIS purpose, IN SPITE OF ALL THAT APPEARED TO THE CONTRARY! Asia also speaks with this, ~ in that which a perfect (mature) man would speak when he says along with Job ~ “Though God slay me, yet will I trust Him.” ~ and then TRUSTS HIM “ Notice ~ When our own winter ends spring will come”. ~ Notice this along with the trials of Job, A perfect Faithful Servant ~ for God actually called Job perfect. The very first verse in the book of Job states ~ ” There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was PERFECT and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Let us look and notice Job, ~ Job KNEW God! Job knew in his heart that Gods nature is good, loving, true, righteous, omnipotent, omniscient, immutable and faithful in all His ways. At one point in his trial he exclaimed, “I KNOW that my Redeemer lives … and though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God,” and again, “I KNOW that You can do everything, and that no thought can be withholding from You” (Job 19:25-26; 42:2). “Have you considered My servant Job” ~ (God’s IDEA). ~ With swiftness the misfortunes fell as tribulation and affliction came upon Him. All hell broke loose upon him. His possessions were gone. His servants were gone. His cattle, his family, and his dwelling place were as though they had never been. And now he was desperately ill, tormented with pain, and without even a bed to sleep on; ~ He lies down in the ashes of what was once his beautiful home to listen to the relentless arguments of his friends discussing theodicy. (?) Let me tell you such miserable comforters as Job’s friends are always at hand, ready to attest with carnal eyes, those who have entered the furnace of affliction, ~ I must say they have been and are bad examples, and are unbelieving to Gods truth.

    In one tragic day all Job’s earthly wealth and glory had vanished. But did Job curse God for all this calamity? Did he even blame the Devil? No! He rent his mantle (outer garment), shaved (or pulled) out the hair of the head, threw dust or ashes on his head, and descended to the ground; all acts by which excessive grief was expressed. Job surely must have felt the bitterest of anguish when he was told that, in addition to the loss of all his property, his ten children were also struck by a violent death. If he did not feel this most movingly, he would have been unworthy of the name of a PERFECT and UPRIGHT man. But yet in all of this ~ HE WORSHIPPED GOD with the unmistakable words of reverence, “Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: THE LORD GAVE, AND THE LORD HAS TAKEN AWAY; BLESSED BE THE NAME OF THE LORD” (Job 1:22).

    • Mary Vanderplas September 22, 2012 at 7:16 am

      I don’t agree with what you say about the story of Job. Job does not just trustingly accept his tragic circumstances, “knowing that God has everything in control, that all is according to his purpose, in spite of all that appeared to the contrary.” Far from it. The bulk of the story consists of Job’s anguished inquiry into the manifest injustice of things. He rages against his lot, knowing that he has done nothing to warrant such treatment, and against the God whom he thought he knew. In the face of his undeserved misery, he speaks accusingly against God, questioning his character and ways. Whatever patience or reverential attitude Job may have had at the beginning is gone, evidently, after the first two chapters of the book; from that point on until the end, when God speaks to Job and Job responds, Job speaks out of the depths of his feeling of having been betrayed and of wanting – indeed, demanding – an answer from this God who was supposed to be just and good and loving and faithful. Yes, Job’s response contrasts sharply with that of his friends, who are busy trying to defend God while at the same time indicting Job. But it is not that Job accepts his lot while the others devise explanations for his misery. Job wrestles with the seeming injustice of God as he tries in vain to make sense of his tragic circumstances in light of what he had always believed about God and about the way the world works.

      Even at the end of the story, when God speaks and Job is brought to a new place of realizing that God’s ways are not his ways, it is not that Job now sees and accepts that all of his sufferings are for a purpose in the overarching plan of God. What Job sees and comes to trust is that God is not the monster Job assumed him to be, that God is not against him but is on his side, and that God can be trusted, in spite of everything, to accomplish his good purpose for him.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 20, 2012 at 1:41 pm

    Alice said she believes Asia is a “minister,” as in “called by God,” because he prays for the post-mortem salvation of his sister is proof positive Alice doesn’t believe the Holy Bible which is still void of any mention of souls saved after physical death and in fact it states such is not possible:

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
    let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
    they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
    among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
    The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
    for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
    For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

    • admin September 20, 2012 at 11:19 pm

      I would have hoped that you could have kept your gloom and doom to yourself just this once, considering your life circumstances similar to his. I am terribly disappointed. Hopefully Asia won’t be reading this comment section, because he certainly isn’t getting any empathy from you.

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 21, 2012 at 12:34 am

      I’m criticizing you, not him, for not believing Isaiah 38: 18; Ecclesiastes 9: 10; Psalm 6: 5; 31: 17; 49: 14; 88: 5, 10 – 12; 115: 17. These passages are not
      “gloom and doom” but they are reality and reality is truth. Face the truth and stop promoting the lies, Alice. Living outside reality is defined as insanity.

      And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die {Genesis 3: 4}
      Are you unable to see what lie you promote is “Ye shall not surely die eternally because Christ will reconcile all things including Ye {yes, and even Me, Satan, the Father of lies}”?

      Forsake your false imaginary hope and believe these ten verses and God will show you His salvation.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 21, 2012 at 12:56 pm

    John 17: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    You like Christ’s power over “all flesh” but you fail to see it also includes giving eternal life to as many as the Father has given Him. For the entire chronology of the creation Christ’s power over all flesh remains the same, just so for the entire chronology of the creation the many the Father gave Christ remains the same.

    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. {2 Timothy 2: 19}

    So what of those who are not His, whom the Father did not give to the Son, whose names were omitted from the Book of Life from the foundation of the world?
    Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction {Romans 9: 21, 22} whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world {Revelation 17: 8 & 20: 14} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Unavoidable eternal torment is the reality facing all unbelievers once they physically die. It is the Father’s plan obvious since He have Christ certain people and not others.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 22, 2012 at 1:11 pm

    Alice, the Psalmist, King David, having written Psalm 51 and 110: 4, knew experientially the forgivenesss of sins and Messiah to be a Priest forever after the order of Melchizedek, and yet he wrote Psalms contrary to your false imaginary hope. David’s son, the wisest man on earth, King Solomon, wrote Proverbs 8: 22 – 31, a personification of Wisdom and picture of Christ, and he wrote another beautiful Song of Songs picture of the intimacy of the believer and the Saviour, yet he wrote Ecclesiastes contrary to your false imaginary hope. Isaiah wrote of the Saviour’s virgin birth, His government and Kingdon in chapter 9 and of His suffering in chapter 53, yet he wrote 38: 18 contrary to your false imaginary hope.

    Psalm 6: 5; 31: 17; 49: 14; 88: 5, 10 – 12; 115: 17; Ecclesiastes 9: 10; Isaiah 38: 18;

    The Psalmists knew NOTHING of your false imaginary hope.
    Solomon knew NOTHING of your false imaginary hope.
    Isaiah knew NOTHING of your false imaginary hope.

    • Patrick Strickland September 23, 2012 at 3:31 pm

      you know Lonnie I really love all of those verses especially most of all this verse that you referenced. It destroys the very pagan idea of hell that came into the church from the pagan root of the Romans and Greeks mythology, and that can be traced back to the Egyptians and even to the Babylonian mythology. Where they had someone aware and awake knowing what was going on around them and could feel all the pain and suffering that hell had for them after death if they were a bad person. But as you clearly read from scripture there is NO knowledge in the grave. Knowledge is translated from the Hebrew word da‛ath which means knowledge perception, aware; and comes from yada which means to know, to be aware. Ecc 9:10 KJV Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is NO work, nor device (I also love the definition of this word device is actually intelligence planing scheming so in hell Sheol the grave there is no cognitive reasoning… so how can anyone suffer over what they have done if they cannot even think about what they have done?), nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom, in the grave (SHEOL in hebrew which in many places in the King James version was translated as hell. But God forbid that the layman should ever find out that fact that the hebrew word was the same for grave and hell my if they found out then the clergy could not scare the people into acting the way they wanted them to act by promising them unending conscience torture with full awareness of what was going on and why it was going on for all eternity if they did not straighten up. Nor could they sell them indulgences so they could pray their loved ones out of Hell. Which is what the roman Catholics did for over a thousand years, hey they even still do it today), whither thou goest.

      I believe everyone of those verses you quoted but the problem is the tradition of men that are taught as the word of god do not really allow you to believe them at all. If you believe in a hell of conscience torture for all of eternity then you obviously are the one who does not believe those scriptures you referenced, where there is no knowledge, no awareness, no reasoning intelligence, nor no wisdom in hell. For if you did then you would be able to see the contradiction you are teaching as the word of God. And you would be able to balance them with the following verses which say that not only does God kill but He makes alive He destroys and causes people to be healed and CAUSES THEM TO return from destruction.

      Psa 90:3 KJV Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.

      Deu 32:39 KJV See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

      1Sa 2:6 KJV The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

      Psa 68:20 KJV He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the issues from death.

      Psa 68:20 CLV Our El is an El of grand salvation, And to Yahweh, my Lord, belong the exits from death.”

      Hos 6:1-2 KJV Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. (2) After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

      Isa 43:11-13 KJV I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (13) Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

      No man can stop or hinder what God is going to do.

      A perfect example of destruction and restoration from scripture is Sodom, which because of their sins He destroyed with eternal fire, but you can go to that region and not find a fire burning today, the fire went out long ago, so how was the fire eternal? God then holds Sodom up as an example of what happens to those who live ungodly. GOD WILL DESTROY THE WICKED. But most denomination do not even realize that God has promised to restore them to their former estate sometime in the future BEFORE HE WILL RESTORE Jerusalem TO IT’S FORMER ESTATE.

      Eze 16:48-55 KJV As I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou (Jerusalem) and thy daughters. (49) Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (51) Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. (52) Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters. (53) When I shall BRING AGAIN their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: (54) That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. (55) When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

      Whether you believe it or not the grave is not the end. Nor is eternal torture in Hell the final goal and end for the wicked. God plans to gather together ALL things into one and that one is Christ. (EPH 1:10) He has BY THE DEATH OF CHRIST reconciled ALL INTO Christ. (COL 1:20 CHECK OUT THE GREEK.) Death is by no means the ultimate goal nor end or even a slight hindrance to God’s ability to finish what He stated in scripture that He was going to do.

      Lonnie said:
      “And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die {Genesis 3: 4}
      Are you unable to see what lie you promote is “Ye shall not surely die eternally because Christ will reconcile all things including Ye {yes, and even Me, Satan, the Father of lies}”?”

      LOL Lonnie it sounds like you don’t believe how effective the cross truly is according to scripture In Adam ALL die even so in Christ ALL shall be made alive. Satan’s temptation only dealt with questioning did God say do not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil God really did not mean you will die if you eat, You won’t die if you eat of that tree. And by falling for that deception she ate and by eating that is what caused death and the process of death to enter into ALL creation. Did you know Lonnie that in scripture that Death is never described as an eternal state that man cannot be redeemed from. In fact the opposite is stated in scripture.

      Hos 13:14 KJV I will ransom them from the power of the grave (Sheol); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave (sheol), I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

      Do you not see the lie you are promoting in light of the scripture that what Christ did at the cross for all man to restore all men back to what they had lost because of the lie Satan told to Eve in the garden – that the cross of Christ is not really effective for all men, even though scripture declares that it is truly going to be completely effective and all men are going to enter into a saving faith and all creation is going to be brought into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God, once God has prepared His firstfruit sons to be conformed into the image of His son and has manifested them for all creation to see. They the manifested sons are going to bring all creation into the same liberty of the glory that they have with God.

      Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the creation waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creation was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the placing as sons, to wit, the redemption of our body.

      The truth is in Adam all are experiencing the process of death until they die period. But in Christ All shall be made alive period. God fully intends to bring all creation into Christ out of the death Adam’s disobedience provided into the life that Christ is providing for the same all that bore the image of Adam, will bear the image of the heavenly- christ.

      1Co 15:47-49 KJV The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

      Grace and peace Patrick

      • admin September 25, 2012 at 1:00 am

        I’m sorry, it’s bugging me… his name is Lanny, not Lonnie.

        • Patrick Strickland September 27, 2012 at 5:19 pm

          Thank you for your gracious correction Alice. I humbly apologize to you and all of your readers for using the wrong name. I did not realize that I was doing it, I sure did not desire to offend anyone. So Lannie I do ask your forgiveness for my error I did not intend to offed you or try to slight you in any way. I promise to use your proper name from now on.

          Grace and peace Patrick.

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2012 at 2:29 am

        Patrick, your fundamental problem of your theory is that you say there is no knowing in the grave/hell, then how can they learn from the Sons of God the Gospel by which to be saved. You propose no scheming so they can’t even choose life if they were to know. Also the context of Romans 8: 28 does NOT outline the Sons of God evangelizing creation: that’s a frabrication on your part. You have fabricated an unworkable scene and defeated your own argument.

        There is no salvation after physical death proven by ten Bible verses as well as all of the Scriptures.

        • Patrick Strickland September 27, 2012 at 5:49 pm

          Dear Lannie check out the Greek very carefully and you will see that all creation will be delivered into the same liberty of the glory that the sons of God have. What is the glory that the sons of God have? why it is nothing less then that glory that Jesus asked for in john 17:5 which was nothing less then God’s own self. Later in that same chapter he turned around and gave to all who believe the very same glory he received. And this glory would cause us to become one with the Father and Jesus even as they are one, so that we may be made perfect in one. Now it is abundantly clear from 2 cor 3:18 that we who have an unveiled face will be changed into the same image that we see.

          2Co 3:18 YLT and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

          When God reveals His glory, when he unveils the glory that we posses as sons of God then the whole of creation will also be changed from glory to glory as they behold the glory we have.

          30 years ago when I first became a christian i had a vision at work when I sat down for my lunch break. Suddenly the whole world was dark but I could see many lights stretching out in the distance, and I knew they were all Christians. Some of the lights were very bright others, not so bright every one was different. Then all of a sudden all the lights started getting brighter and brighter, light was radiating stronger even from me. Then I noticed a light brighter then any sun descending and I knew it was Christ Jesus in His glory. And all the lights became as bright as he was. And the spirit of the Lord spoke one portion of a verse I had never read before seeing I was very young in the lord. ” We are all changed from glory to glory.” Then the vision ended.

          God has even sworn by his own self that His glory is going to fill the earth even as the waters cover the sea. This is inevitable

          Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 23, 2012 at 12:52 am

    10 Bible Verses: _ NO
    salvation after death
    Psalm 6: 5 _ _ _ _ _ _ Ecclesiastes 9: 10
    ….13: 17
    ….49: 14 _ _ _ _ _ _ ISAIAH 38: 18
    ….88: 5 & 10 _ 12
    …115: 17

    With a ball point pen I wrote the above on card stock the size of business cards.
    I went to fly my model airplane at our model airport after getting a call today, Saturday, that the guys were planning to fly today at 4: 30 PM. Only two others showed up and I gave them each a card so they can read the Scriptures on the subject in privacy.

    You see, Mormons also believe if they are baptized for the dead, the dead will have another chance to hear the Mormon gospel preached and they might accept it and be saved.

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
    let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
    they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
    among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
    The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
    for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
    For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 23, 2012 at 1:11 am

      Oh, I did get it right on the card Psalm 31: 17. Of course, Mormons believe those who hear the Mormon gospel after they die benefit by all the works those who were baptized for them also do for them and after they believe they can then do further works in the spirit world to better their condition.

      You see, your heresy is not new or exclusive to you. It has been around a long time especially in the Roman Catholic Church’s Purgatory.

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 24, 2012 at 4:00 pm

    Alice, I wish to remind you that Jesus, in the four gospel accounts never disputed any of these ten verses, but rather considered all of them the Word of God penned specifically by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God; and that all of His descriptions of the experiences of the unbelieving dead are consistent with those ten verses thus proving the literalness of those ten verses. Please believe the perfect literal Holy Bible.

    Psalm 6: 5; 31: 17; 49: 14; 88: 5, 10 – 12; 115: 17; Ecclesiastes 9: 10; Isaiah 38: 18

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