Dream Machines

Dream Machines

For my Adventures in Emerging Media class at UCF, I watched a lecture video called “Brief History of the Internet” by Dr. Robert F. Kenny.  The first part of the video outlines the initial conceptualization and implementation of the Internet, and the second part examines the evolution of standards that resulted in the Internet as we know it today.  Kenny’s lecture is peppered with video clips from a PBS special by Robert Cringely on the history of the Internet.

The beginning of the Internet, according to Kenny, is a “remarkable series of events.” He explains why, saying, “All these people that went into the development of [the Internet] were totally independent from one another.  They didn’t know one another, and in many cases didn’t even meet one another.  And so I think you’ll find it very interesting they came along with putting together a product, a series of products that are so cohesive and massive in scope… ”

For clarity, I’d like to restate Kenny’s observation.  Today, it’s not unheard of to collaborate with someone without actually meeting him or her, but naturally, we would depend on the Internet for such collaboration.  Prior to the 80’s this kind of distant collaboration may have happened by telephone or snail mail.  What Kenny is stressing here is that in many instances, the people who were creating some of the necessary pieces and parts had no idea that others were simultaneously working on other necessary pieces and parts.

Another interesting aspect of the Internet is that on a graph of the timeline of the Internet showing the amount of Internet usage, “the graph of the exposure, the use of the Internet, has grown exponentially over the years, and it’s kind of like a huge S-shaped curve… We’re still at the front end of it… It’s not on a downward slope, which happens [with] a lot of technologies.  We’re still on the upward slope here, which means we’ve got a long way to go… We’re really just beginning to breach the future… [The Internet’s] usefulness to all of us is going to be growing, and it’s going to continue to grow in the time to come.”

The implications of the concepts Kenny describes are phenomenal, not only for Internet usage, but also for how we understand ourselves as human beings and how we relate to one another.  For many people, this means an increase in philosophical and spiritual knowledge.  In most, if not all academic educational materials, the origin of the universe is explained by a prevailing cosmological theory known as the “Big Bang.”  Similarly, the origin of humanity is explained by the theory of evolution.  Neither theory, however credible, recognizes a self-existent first cause or intelligent designer.  Without going into a long account of opposition and rebuttal between science and religion, I’d like to point out that I see many similarities between the spiritual evolution of humanity and that of the Internet.  To state it simply, I don’t expect people to be interested in or agree with my views, but I see the fingerprints of God all over the Internet, and I fully expect that one day, the complete interdependence of science and spirituality will become too obvious to ignore.  If that scares you or makes you feel uncomfortable, perhaps you will go read something else now.  If you keep reading, don’t blame me for wasting your time.  For those with eyes to see and a desire to see, perhaps there will be an “a-ha” moment.

The upward slope of the S curve represents Internet usage.  For spirituality, this is especially exciting.  At an MIT forum on religion and the Internet, Rev. Charles Henderson recalls one of his first explorations in religion and the Internet.  He joined a network for religious professionals called “Ecunet” and describes the experience as follows: “All of a sudden, you are no longer alone [writing a sermon].” He collaborated with two or three hundred others in putting the sermon together, and then they went back online to compare notes about how it went.  As to how they measured the effectiveness of the sermon, I have no idea, but to me, this is a small step in the right direction.  Henderson says that it was “a life-transforming experience.”  In the years that followed, Henderson recognized how the Internet was a valuable tool for building community.  He started what he calls The First Church of Cyberspace at www.godweb.com (site no longer exists) with the mission statement: “an attempt to bring Christianity online with thoughtfulness, humor and a willingness to address the more controversial questions that tend to be avoided in the traditional church.”  But I’m getting ahead of myself.  As long as most of the religious content on the Internet was generated by “religious professionals,” the hierarchy would remain unthreatened.

In Cringely’s PBS special, he asks, “What better place for a Big Bang than CERN (Conseil Européen pour la Recherche Nucléaire), the European laboratory for particle research?”  Kenny explains the reasoning behind Cringely’s Big Bang word choice.  The Big Bang, in reference to the Internet, is “the development of the ability to affordably and reliably interconnect networks that were physically separate.”  The scientists at CERN wanted to retrieve information from each other’s computers.  The first message transmitted via the Internet (then known as the ARPANET) resulted in a system crash after only the first two letters, “lo,” of the word “login.”

When one thinks of the word “spiritual,” one likely also thinks of its bizarre and meaningless counterfeit, that is, religion.  Often, people confuse the two ideas, thanks to millennia of isolated, specialized networks, a.k.a. religions, denominations and/or churches.  Throughout human history, only those who were experts in the “language” of the “network” could store or retrieve data.  With the invention of the printing press, data became more available to the public, and the world got a small taste of the power of communication.  This invention ushered in the Age of Enlightenment.  It could be compared to the “lo” of “login.”  The system crashed.  Isolated and specialized religious networks began banning and burning books in response to the threat of free inquiry.  In the mid-1500’s the Pope created a list of prohibited books that wasn’t done away with until the 1960’s.  Ironically the ban was lifted just in time for the invention of the Internet!

One of the biggest problems of the Internet at the time, according to Kenny, was that users “had to pay for connectivity whether something was being transmitted or not,” and another problem was that users “needed to break apart transmitted messages for security reasons” because messages were being lost or intercepted along the way.  The solution?  Send the message in a lot of little chunks instead of one big chunk, because, according to Cringely’s PBS special, “it’s much easier to put sand down a pipe than boulders.”  If something was blocking the path of a message, it could be redirected through another computer.  This process is called “packet switching.”  As the name implies, packets need switchers.

A small company, Bolt, Beranek, & Newman (BBN) used the theoretical concepts of networking from people like Len Kleinrock and Donald Davies and created packet switchers.  They called it the Interface Message Processor (IMP), a hulking machine at least a head taller than an average size man.  The IMP is what we now know as a router, a tiny gadget with blinking lights that we forget even exists unless it needs to be reset.  Kenny points out the extraordinary nature of this accomplishment by emphasizing that this was a government project that was on time and on budget.  How often does that happen?

Even with all of this behind-the-scenes success, it would be another twenty years before people actually started noticing or appreciating the Internet.  Why?  For several reasons.  But first, I’d like the point out the spiritual implications of the last couple of paragraphs.  One of the biggest problems spirituality had, to borrow Kenny’s words, was that participants in religion “had to pay for connectivity whether something was being transmitted or not.”  In other words, go through the motions, without experiencing much spiritual growth.  The printing press brought about some positive changes, but people were still connected within isolated networks, many of them spiritually dead and unaware of each other in a more global sense.  An “us” and “them” mentality persisted in addition to suspicion and competition between churches and denominations.  Good will messages were lost and intercepted, and most people automatically resorted to their little isolated network protocols.  Spiritual “clients” needed packet switching but didn’t have any packet switchers.

The packet switchers in spirituality came about mostly in the land of the free in the form of movements such as evangelicalism, ecumenism, fundamentalism, plenty of other isms, house churches, and mega-churches.  The problem was that communications were still only taking place by way of hulking machines in specialized and isolated facilities.  Yes, these denominations and churches were making some headway in communications and functioning cooperatively toward certain common goals, but the individuals within those churches didn’t have a voice.  The hierarchical experts were still writing the language and controlling the type of communication that seemed acceptable to them on big IMPs by the light of stained-glass windows.  There were not yet routers for the little people.

J.C.R. Licklider, the “Johnny Appleseed” of interactive computing, was a dreamer who envisioned the Internet, but never invented it.  Instead, he organized and funded those who had the ability to bring his vision into reality.  Licklider, known by his colleagues as “Lick,” called the Internet the “Intergalactic Network” and described it as “a field that gets a thousand times as good in twenty years.”  Kenny notes that visionaries or dreamers are often misunderstood, “It’s hard to understand what [Lick] has to say, but if you listen to it very, very closely, he had this vision of what really was supposed to happen.”  Lick explains, “Specialized hardware facilities tend to be expensive, but very efficient.  On the other hand, if they can be distributed, then specialized hardware facilities can be very effective and let us do things that we couldn’t otherwise do.”  Cringely clarifies for the PBS audience that what Lick is really saying is that “everyone can use computers anywhere and get data anywhere in the world.”  Keep in mind that Lick uttered these words in the 1960’s.

Another underappreciated visionary was Ted Nelson, author of the books, Computer Lib and Dream Machines, who met with Cringely for an interview for the PBS special.  He called the Internet “Xanadu, a magic place of literary memory” and likened it to Samuel Coleridge’s poem, Kubla Kahn.  Kenny points out that Nelson “seems to live in a world all by himself.”  This is evidenced by his odd behavior in the interview.  Nelson, explains that hypertext will enable people to communicate seamlessly and, in an otherworldly tone of voice, he suddenly breaks into recitation:

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree:
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
(Click here to read it in full.)

Cringely asked Nelson whether he considers himself the inventor of hypertext.  Nelson responds, “Hypertext is so obvious.  So I do not claim to have invented hypertext, I merely discovered it.  It’s like the telephone.   At the time, it seemed to be an invention.  To us now, it was a discovery, because it’s so obvious.  Okay.  So, hypertext is like that.  It’s simply the obvious next step in literature.”  When Cringely asked him to define hypertext, Nelson got so offended that he abruptly left the interview!

Tim Berners-Lee, who is considered the inventor of the World Wide Web, is the doer who brought Nelson’s dream into reality in 1990.  But unlike many inventions, the amount of time that passed between conceptualization and actualization was remarkably minimal.  Take DaVinci’s flying machines for example.  DaVinci, the dreamer, the visionary, lacked an engine.  The Wright Brothers brought his dream into reality over four hundred years later.

So we had a World Wide Web, but not many people knew how to use it.  And there were roadblocks to using the Internet for commerce.  Congressman Rick Boucher‘s activity in Internet-related legislation resulted in the commercialization of the Internet.  The Internet became a marketplace that would, “Connect homes, schools, and workplaces,” Boucher said, and “open new worlds of information for all.”

 

 

But we still needed one more software breakthrough.  Just as “dreamers need doers,” doers need money.  Kenny explains, “Money-folks finally got involved.”  The 1990’s Internet boom in a nutshell:

  • John Doerr – “For years Bill Joy had been telling me that someday we’d back a 21 year old kid who would write software that would change the world, and lo and behold sitting in my office is this 23 year old… Marc said, ‘This software is going to change everything.’”
  • Mosaic – first browser.  Marc Andreessen, coauthor of Mosaic – “What we were trying to do was just put a human face on the Internet.  The Internet, at that point, was just a tool for researchers and scientists.”
  • Suddenly, the Internet wasn’t just for nerds…
  • Eric Schmidt – “those ideas had been present for twenty years, but it took a killer application…”

THE MACHINE IS US

 

In the video, “The Machine is Us,” my a-ha moment arrived before I even hit play. The title can hold a positive or a negative vibe, depending on the point of view of the reader. I grew up with a strict fundamentalist background in which I was taught that the antichrist would set up a one-world government and demand that everyone obtain the Mark of the Beast in order to purchase anything. By the time the Internet became popular, I had already separated myself from my religious upbringing, but I remained in contact with many of the people still involved in it. They said that the Beast was a supercomputer and the Mark of the Beast was some kind of bar code or embedded chip. To these people, the title, “The Machine is Us,” is likely further confirmation of their fears.

To me, “The Machine is Us” is a hopeful statement about human cooperation. Throughout history, our interactions have always been either controlled or heavily influenced by a small number of people in positions of power. I’ll just pick a number out of the air and say that two or three percent of the population has been able to censor or manipulate information to their own advantage. The linear nature of information flow allowed the two or three percent to maintain their positions of power and influence. That’s why I appreciate the first portion of the video:

Text is linear.
Text is unilinear.
Text is said to be unilinear.
Text is often said to be unilinear.
Text is unilinear when written on paper.

The Internet, especially in the last ten years or so, has been like a revolutionary slap in the face about how we have been exchanging information compared to how we can exchange information. Information as we know it, is not doomed to forever remain constrained in a controllable, linear model; we are beginning to understand it for what it truly is, that is, exponential. We are linear beings who live in a seemingly linear environment of time, space, and matter. There are causes and there are effects. This is the basis of science itself. However, we’ve learned a few things during our long and tumultuous evolution, particularly that time and space are relative. In other words, the universe is exponential, but our tiny minds are having a hard time grasping the implications. We want something solid to beat our mixed-up heads against, just to be sure we are real, and that we are sane. How about a heavy wooden door? Well, it turns out, according to quantum physicists, that the door is matter, and matter is energy, and energy is light, and light may be particles or waves, depending on whether someone is paying attention to it. Mind-boggling stuff, right? That’s why I appreciate the next bit of the video, because it gives me hope that we will, instead of beating our heads against the door, learn how to walk straight through it. The Internet may enable us to consider all possibilities, since anyone can have a voice. And this is possible, because of our newly discovered ways of exchanging data, the innate flexibility of information:

Digital text is different.
Digital text is more flexible.
Digital text is movable.
Digital text is above all… hyper.
Digital hypertext is above all…
Hypertext is above all…
Hypertext can link.
Hypertext can link. (here. here. here. or here.)
virtually anywhere
anywhere virtually
anywhere virtual

If we are smart about preserving this gem of a tool God has enabled and equipped us to create for ourselves, then we might have some hope of discovering the most crucial information and unlimited possibilities that have been hidden throughout the ages. Our own human-manufactured structures of authority and power have held us back long enough. As the Muse song “Uprising” goes:

Rise up and take the power back,
It’s time the fat cats had a heart attack,
You know that their time’s coming to an end,
We have to unify and watch our flag ascend

The world has been operating like inefficient code, with form (authority and power) and content (information) so interdependent that normal people had no choice but to submit to the system in order to have any kind of normalcy in their lives. It kind of makes one reconsider the idea that hermits and antisocial people might have been on to something, refusing to trade their dignity for a life of status quo. I am so encouraged by the final words of the video:

Who will organize all of this data?
(digital ethnography hypermedia anthropology)
We will. You will. […]
XML + U & me create
The web is linking people. […]
People sharing, trading, collaborating.
We’ll need to rethink a few things.
We’ll need to rethink copyright, authorship, identity, ethics, aesthetics, rhetoric, governance, privacy, commerce, love, family, ourselves.

EPIC 2015

 

As I first viewed this video, I wondered in what year it was created. So, I did a little bit of research and found out that it was created around the same time as Facebook. The reason I wondered what year it was created was because I wasn’t sure what was fact and what was fiction, other than the clues given in the video introduction on my class website. This video was disturbing to me, and it was a harsh reminder that it is human nature to take any good, acceptable, beneficial, or profitable thing and make a mess out of it.

In Dr. Kenny’s lecture video, the visionary people like Licklider and Nelson may have seemed to their peers to be out of touch with reality, wishful thinkers, impractical dreamers, etc. But I’ll be damned if their ideas didn’t come to fruition with the help of some intelligent and persistent doers and some rich people willing to invest in their efforts.

Unfortunately, I must admit that EPIC 2015 seems to be the work of a visionary. And I loathe the idea that the Internet could become a wasteland in which our communications become “a collection of trivia, much of it untrue, all of it narrow, shallow, and sensational.” Yes, unfortunately, Fat Cats could potentially hijack the Internet. It is sad, but true.

The video did end with hope, though. Neighbors meeting for lunch at the park, providing each other with practical information, and sharing satisfaction in the little things, like nice weather.

Here we are, approaching a point in our future where we can either become the Image of God or the most depraved version of ourselves. The world will inevitably become something unlike we have ever known, either way.

 

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2012 at 12:57 pm

    Alice writes above, “But I’ll be damned if ….” and she literally will, but not for the reason she thinks. She talks about “become the Image of God” instead of believing humanity IS the image of God from the moment God first created humanity and has always been and will always be the image of God; a fact that never changes.

    Just as with television, so also the internet will primarily be the devil’s playground. Remember Matthew 7: 13 & 14 has a majority that attempts to corrupt everything that is holy and it will certainly use the internet to that end. The proof is your own site trying to promote the insane notion that your god saves everybody in the end which you call Amazing Hope. Ten Bible verses proves you absolutely false, dear Alice. Psalm 6: 5; 31: 17; 49: 14; 88: 5, 10 – 12; 115: 17; Ecclesiastes 9: 10; Isaiah 38: 18.

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
    let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
    they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
    among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
    The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
    for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
    For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

    Patrick’s explanation {Awakening, by Asia Samson} of Romans 8 and these above verses makes evangelism impossible in the grave or hell, wouldn’t you agree?

    • admin September 25, 2012 at 8:38 pm

      “…wouldn’t you agree?”

      No, you know I don’t. 🙂

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 25, 2012 at 11:48 pm

        Patrick’s explanation: “so in hell Sheol the grave there is no cognitive reasoning” then HOW can they possibly understand the Gospel and choose to be saved, Alice?

        I gave you this opportunity and you tell me that doesn’t matter? WHY, Alice, doesn’t it matter that “there is no cognitive reasoning” for evangelism to work?

        WHY? WHY? WHY?

        Just tell me HOW evangelism can work without cognitive reasoning?

        • admin September 26, 2012 at 9:01 am

          Let me be more specific. I do not agree with this: “evangelism impossible in the grave” and I do not necessarily agree with this: “in hell Sheol the grave there is no cognitive reasoning.” And yes, you are correct in pointing out the conflict between evangelizing to those with no cognitive reasoning. But this is a conversation for you and Patrick that I have chosen to not participate in at this time.

        • Patrick Strickland September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm

          Hi Lannie you ask a very important question and at first glance it might appear to you to be contradictory, but the scriptural truth is that there is no device nor knowledge nor wisdom to any who are in the grave, (now pay attention to this next statement) UNTIL they hear the voice of the son of God and are quickened, made alive by God. When the sons of God become manifested that means that there are a people mature in Christ conformed fully into his image to the point that they walk like Jesus and they have the exact same commitment to God, and authority that Jesus did. Jesus only spoke what he heard His Father speak, and he only did what he saw His Father doing. When the sons of God come to the point where they speak only what they hear their father saying and do only what they see their Father doing then they will have a walk in power and authority that the church THE BODY OF CHRIST has never seen or experienced up to this time. When they speak it will not be just them speaking but it will be the Father speaking through them and doing the work; and they will speak with the authority of God. They will speak as they are commanded to speak. Or another way of saying it they will prophecy as they are commanded to, just like Ezekiel was commanded to prophecy to the valley of dry bones.

          Eze 37:4-7 KJV Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD. (5) Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: (6) And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. (7) SO I PROPHESIED AS I WAS COMMANDED: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.

          What was the very first thing that he prophesied to the dead? “Hear the word of the Lord.” It was in prophesying as the Lord commanded that ultimately gave the dead the ability to hear the word of the Lord and started the process of all of their bones to join back together, for flesh muscles organs to form, and for the breath of life to enter back into them which caused them to be raised from out of death, out of their graves. Ezekiel took authority over the dead and commanded them to hear the word of the Lord. This is not begging or even pleading for the dead to hear. This place I am talking about is the place of reigning with God and saying just what He tells you to say- commanding the dry dead bones to hear the word of the Lord. This not only applies to the dead in their natural graves but it applies to those who are dead in trespasses and sins and are the living dead; both must Hear the voice of the son of God speaking to them saying “Hear the word of the Lord” before they can come out of death into life with the Lord. Before being prophesied to hear the word of the Lord the dead in their graves do not have knowledge nor wisdom nor any devices. They are asleep, they are not conscience of what is going on around them.

          Jesus said something very similar:

          Joh 5:25 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

          Did you catch the present tense in that last passage Now is the time when the dead shall hear His voice and they that hear shall live.

          Joh 5:26-30 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. (28) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which ALL THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL HEAR HIS VOICE, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. (30) I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

          We are all guaranteed to hear His voice but this will only happen when God decides it is your time to hear His voice. And when we hear His voice we shall come out of our graves, literally and spiritually. Some to the resurrection of life where they reign with Him and others to the resurrection of judgment which will cause them to learn righteousness. Isa 26:9

          Which is what Ezekiel also prophesied to the dry bones.

          Eze 37:12-13 KJV Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. (13) And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

          I could go deeper but I think that you are getting the gist of what I am talking about.
          Now I am not asking anyone to believe just like I do, The simple truth is you can’t until you hear God speak to you and He teaches you what he actually meant by what he inspired to be written in his word. If He does not teach it to you then there is absolutely no way you will believe what I say about it. So with that, I leave you with this last statement dear sir, and I say it in love, “Hear the word of the Lord.”

          Grace and peace Patrick

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 28, 2012 at 12:34 am

            Alice, it seems to me I’ve heard from you ideas the same or similiar to what Patrick wrote; it that true?

            • admin September 30, 2012 at 11:16 pm

              Can you be more specific? Maybe quote me?

              • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 12:36 am

                Alice, you know you could just simply volunteer how you agree and how you disagree with Patrick’s September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm.

                • admin October 1, 2012 at 11:08 am

                  Yes, I could do that. Maybe one day I will. But I also recognize the limits of my understanding, and I only want to claim with absolute certainty what I believe to be absolutely true. What really matters is that Jesus Christ accomplishes His mission to seek and save the lost, to bring all things into subjection to Himself and present a reconciled creation to the Father who is at that point undoubtedly all in all. The scriptures offer limited post-mortem information for a reason – we should not be obsessing over exactly how God accomplishes His Plan of the Ages, and fearing all the while that if we don’t have all the answers, God might somehow fail. We have enough information to enter into His Sabbath rest and be free of anxiety over what is to come, however it unfolds. On this, Patrick and I agree. When I have more time, perhaps Patrick and I will consider how/why he/I is/am wrong, or maybe we will discover that we are both correct (E=mc2). And you are welcome to join into the conversation if/when it happens.

                  • Patrick Strickland October 1, 2012 at 12:22 pm

                    Hi Alice:

                    We all know in part, but when that which is perfect is come then we shall be able to see fully and to know perfectly and understand fully what we each are describing. We are all like a group of blind men who encounter an elephant and try to describe it to one another “It is like a wall” when he it touched it’s side,”No, It is like a snake” when one touched the trunk. “No It is like a spear” when one touched the tusks. Another argued “No it is like a tree” when he touched a leg. Were any wrong? No none of them were wrong, who actually were describing what they encountered. Did any have the whole picture? No they only had a part of the whole.

                    If we disagree on anything then if either of us are wrong because of items we are not letting go that are not the truth then God will in time correct us individually, If it is because we are not seeing the same thing then in time God will give all of us sight and we shall see that the part the other was describing is in reality true for that part they had encountered in God. And we shall all realize that it was only just a part and not the whole that we were describing.

                    Thank God that a time is coming that we shall not see in part anymore.

                    Grace and Peace Patrick

          • Stephen Helbig September 28, 2012 at 4:07 pm

            Patrick, ~ I truly enjoyed your above comment (September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm), ~ And verse (7) is beautiful ~ SO I PROPHESIED AS I WAS COMMANDED: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. ~ To speak forth The Word of our Lord is truly a thing of GREAT BEAUTY. Hope you enjoy the link to this song below as much as I enjoyed your comment above.

            Link ~
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xkwt8C33Go&feature=share

            p.s. Let the breathe of your Holy Spirit Breathe in us Your life O Lord

            • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2012 at 2:37 pm

              Hi Stephen:

              Thanks for the link I did like the song the words are excellent.

              You can take my dry bones
              Breathe life into this skin
              You called me by name
              Raised me to life again

              [Verse 2:]
              You can calm the oceans
              Speak peace into my soul
              Take me as I am
              Awaken my heart to beat again

              [Chorus:]
              Oh Jesus
              Oh Jesus
              Oh Jesus
              Alive in me

              [Verse 3:]
              You move in the unseen
              You set the captives free
              As I stand and sing
              You’re breaking the chains off me

              [Bridge:]
              Breathe in me Your life
              I can feel You are close now
              I can never hide
              You are here and You know me
              All I need is You
              And I love You
              I love You
              I love You
              I love You

              Breathe in me Your life
              ‘Til Your love overtakes me
              Open up my eyes
              Let me see You more clearly
              Falling on my knees
              ‘Til I love like You love
              Like You love me
              I love You

              Amen to your prayer. Let it be true for all.

              Grace and peace Patrick

        • Lanny A. Eichert September 30, 2012 at 4:53 pm

          Patrick September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm used Isaiah 26:9 to support “which will cause them to learn righteousness” but did he read the next two verses?

          • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 8:17 am

            With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them. Isaiah 26:9 – 11

            yet will he NOT learn righteousness
            will NOT behold the majesty of the LORD
            they will NOT see
            be ashamed
            shall devour them

            • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 4:57 pm

              Dear Lannie

              Sorry I took so much time to get back to answering your questions. I have been really busy remodeling my home so I have not had a lot of spare time to write to you.

              I am really glad that you did check out the context. And quoted it… Thank you for taking the time to do that, keep it up. However it is obvious to me that you did not check deep enough and that you assume that those two verses are referring to the same thing. At first glance they appear to. But upon closer examination, though they are not. If they were then you would have a serious contradiction just one statement after the one I brought to your attention … when His judgment are in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness. Now I know you read the next verse like this: Let “judgment” be shown to the wicked, yet he will not learn righteousness…The contradiction is simple you have a verse that states that all the inhabitants will learn righteousness when His judgments are in the earth and another that declares that the wicked will not learn righteousness. You did notice that the scripture did not say when his judgments are in the earth the wicked will not learn righteousness. Favour was what was mentioned in verse 10 not judgment. Thank God that Judgment is not favour; and favour is not judgment. Favour is the Hebrew word chanan and is translated favour, mercy, graciousness.

              Strong’s defines it as to bend or stoop in kindness to an inferior; to favor, bestow; causatively to implore (that is, move to favor by petition): – beseech, X fair, (be, find, shew) favour (-able), be (deal, give, grant (gracious (-ly), intreat, (be) merciful, have (shew) mercy (on, upon), have pity upon, pray, make supplication, X very.

              So let us read it this way which follows the definition:

              When His judgments are in the earth THE INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS. But let God bend or stoop in kindness to all of us who are inferior to him, let Him beseech and implore us and let Him bestow favour, mercy, graciousness to the wicked, yet will he the wicked not learn righteousness.

              So Lannie is God’s mercy and graciousness actually the same as His judgments?

              Obviously they are not the same. When God’s judgments are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. But the opposite is true when he just shows the wicked his mercy and graciousness without judgment they will not learn righteousness

              In order for the inhabitants of the world to learn righteousness it is going to take His judgments to be in the earth. There is absolutely no contradiction there, only a balance in how God deals with all of us. If all we have is mercy then the type person that this will cause to grow up is nothing but a spoiled brat who will do whatever he wants to do and then just ask His father for mercy so He can repeat doing what ever he wants to do. The church is filled with men and women like that who never forsake their wicked ways because they are relying on just the mercy of God to forgive them of any trespasses they have committed . Having just judgment with no mercy will cause a person to grow up is such a way that His very spirit will become crushed, and he will with His lips say that He loves God but deep down in his heart he will absolutely hate Him. He will be nothing more then just a slave to the whims of God. He will live in constant terror and torment trying to please God always being afraid that God will judge them unmercifully for the slightest infraction of His will. God is not interested in raising up either personality. God is seeking to mature all of us in Him so we can love Him unreservedly and walk in His ways without ever a thought of departing back into sin. It will take both Judgment and mercy to mature us into the express image of His son: therefore he will hold us accountable for all of our actions and will judge them but at the same time He will be merciful and not judge us more harshly than we deserve. ALL of His judgments will be into victory. His judgments will be corrective and not just punitive. God will cause us to turn from our wicked ways and He will cause us to walk in his ways without fear of ever displeasing Him.

              God lets it rain on the just and the unjust alike that is an example of His favour towards all men. But it is evident that the wicked learn nothing about righteousness from God’s mercy and graciousness of letting it rain upon all. But let His judgments begin to enter that wicked man or woman life and you will be sure they will begin to learn all about righteousness. How do I know that simply because God declares that the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness when His judgments are in the earth.

              There is a distinct relationship between mercy and judgment though. God’s throne is established in mercy, and he rules with judgment hasting righteousness.

              Isa 16:5 KJV And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

              Justice and judgment are the habitation of His throne, mercy and truth go before His countenance.

              Psa 89:14 KJV Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

              There must be balance between Judgment and mercy or none of us will ever grow up into the image of His Son.

              Grace and peace Patrick

              • Lanny A. Eichert October 8, 2012 at 12:39 am

                Patrick, when His judgment are in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness is only possible while they are mortal inhabitants, since once they die they are no longer inhabitants of the realm where His judgment is according to the text.

                You wrote: the resurrection of judgment which will cause them to learn righteousness. Isa 26:9

                They’re inhabitants of the Lake of Fire since the earth and heaven are fled away. {Revelation 20: 11}

                Get your chronology together, man. Isaiah 26: 9 – 11 is an earthly Millenial Kingdom text occurring as much as one thousand years before the resurrection of judgment {John 5: 29}.

                You’re not even on topic, Patrick, with Isaiah 26: 9, so your appeal to what you think the Isaiah text means has no merit. I have been complaining you use wrong texts far from the context as a regular pattern and your arguments might very well be simply dismissed as very inaccurate. You have followed suite in what I have read tonight 07October. I’m sorry, Patrick, you sincerely try, but simple sincerity is not good enough for God: you must be perfectly accurate, or else He will have prepared for you the fires of Hades.

                • Patrick Strickland October 11, 2012 at 7:43 pm

                  God said He was a consuming fire. He also declared he would be the destruction of sheol, hell, or grave. How was hell the grave SHEOL destroyed it was cast into the lake of Fire.

                  Psa 49:15 KJV But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave(sheol hell): for he shall receive me. Selah.

                  Hos 13:14 KJV I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave,I WILL BE THY DESTRUCTION: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

                  God destroyed death by swallowing it up in the victory He gave unto us through Jesus Christ’s unending incorruptible life. He redeemed all us from out the grave-sheol-hell and from death. He made us his ministers into a flame of fire and when you have many flames gathered into one in Christ you have a Lake of fire.

                  As to the rest of what you said Lanny: The religious systems of men have had 1700 years to systemtize the chronology of the end time events but the problem is that the system you hold up as truth does not consider at all the fact that God swore by himself that he will have all men saved by bowing their knees and swearing that in Him they have righteousness and strength- or as the new testament declares that all men will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord INTO the glory of the Father.

                  God WILL HAVE ALL men saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. There is something terribly wrong with any chronology that the systems of men have created that does not face and accept these scriptures. So it is obvious that we will have to agree to disagree on the points that you make concerning chronology you hold to as truth.

                  I really do love you and respect the fact that you are trying so hard to defend what you hold to be truth.

                  Grace and Peace Patrick

        • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 8:00 am

          Patrick errs in September 27, 2012 at 5:49 pm Awakening, by Asia Samson (1) by applying the “all creation” of Romans 8: 18 – 23 to unbelievers when “the ground” of Genesis 3: 17 – 19 is meant. He errs (2) by applying the glory of John 17: 5 & 22 and 2 Corinthians 3: 18 to the whole human race when only the disciples of Christ are meant. For this he claims Habakkuk 2: 14 and “his lunch break vision” because the perfect literal Holy Bible isn’t enough. Then he errs in September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm Dream Machines (3) by claiming no knowledge {no cognitive reasoning} in the grave until they hear the voice of the son of God NOT REALIZING they cannot recognize {hear} the voice without {cognitive reasoning} knowledge. He errs (4) by making the Sons of God of Romans 8: 19 to be the dry bones of Ezekiel 37:12-13 because he cannot distinguish Israel from the Church, the Body of Christ, in prophecy. He errs (5) by making the TWO resurrections of John 5: 29 multiple individual resurrections throughout human history, like Alice’s insistence on every man in his own order of 1 Corinthians 15: 23, again putting unrelated texts together. Hey guys, have you seen a resurrected person lately? Since you’re preaching your Amazing Hope, why aren’t you one of those resurrected ones? He errs (6) by using Isaiah 26: 9 to prove their individual resurrections to judgment causes them to learn righteousness unto salvation without having read the next two verses refuting that. As always Patrick pieces together texts that don’t belong together, claiming he heard God speaking to him what He actually meant. Your story is a total frabrication unsupported by proper Scripture, proving your Amazing Hope a total falsehood.

          • admin October 1, 2012 at 10:59 am

            You misrepresent my views, Lanny. The nature of resurrection for the elect is not the same as the nature of the resurrection for the non-elect. You apply the nature of the resurrection for the elect to the other resurrections (yes, resurrections PLURAL) and use this as a means of negating the idea of “each in his own order.” That phrase is in reference to the non-elect, the ones who are reconciled to God, but it is not yet apparent. An example of this misunderstanding, according to your own theology, would be if someone was to deny the resurrection (of anyone at all) because we don’t regularly see Christians walking out of morgues, immortal and incorruptible. Of course we don’t. It happens in God’s time and God’s way. To deny the redemptive work of Christ for all non-elect is to take the same limited viewpoint of the person who demands to see Christians leaving the morgue before he/she believes that the resurrection is possible. The nature of the resurrection and the timing of the resurrection are in the hands of the one Who holds the keys to death/Hades and came to save people who have been slaves to the fear of death all their lives.

            • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 6:30 pm

              Alice errs in that she says “each in his own order” That phrase is in reference to the non-elect. Yet the text of 1 Corinthians 15: 23 is “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” She doesn’t realize why 2 Timothy 2: 19 says “Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.” We’ve been through this before and she still continues to think the non-elect are Christ’s when the Father hadn’t given them to Christ and yet she had admitted there are those not included in that group: “them that are His.”

              Alice’s gospel is a total frabrication unsupported by proper Scripture, proving her Amazing Hope a total falsehood. Hey guys, have you seen a non-elect resurrected person who has been reconciled to God lately? NO, because it hasn’t happened yet in over six thousand years. Why not? Because it will never happen. Christ’s resurrection has already happened, but the NEXT resurrection hasn’t yet. What is the NEXT one: it is the resurrection of every saint of God and is called the First Resurrection. The resurrection of they that have done evil occurs one thousand years later in one single complete group event {Revelation 20: 11 – 15} preceeding the Final Judgment as Jesus said {John 5: 29}. There is no Scriptural support for Alice’s “other resurrections (yes, resurrections PLURAL)” which she has fabricated to avoid eternal torment because she will not allow herself to be convinced of the simple chronology of Christ’s final revelation with which He closes the perfect literal Holy Bible. She fabricates an impossible chronology and excuses it saying God’s time is not our time, not realizing that when human beings are involved it is our time. LINEARITY !!! Simple chronology proves her doctrine is unworkable and absolutely false.

              • admin October 1, 2012 at 9:11 pm

                You write, “she still continues to think the non-elect are Christ’s when the Father hadn’t given them to Christ.”

                “Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand.”

                • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 10:28 pm

                  Alice, John 3: 35 is followed by verse 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Don’t you see the wrath of God, not eternal life? Just like Patrick, you read everything loop-sided to fit your false doctrine.

                  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. {John 3: 20}

                  but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. {John 3: 18}

                  None of the context proves “all things” means God saves unbelievers after physical death. On the contrary, all of Scripture proves eternal torment is the final destiny of unbelievers. Your doctrine lacks proper Biblical support and is thereby proven false beyond doubt as a mere fabrication.

                  Verse 35 proves Romans 9: 21 & 22
                  Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

            • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 7:03 pm

              Alice, if it “but it is not yet apparent” how ever can you say it? I bet I know the answer: it is because God has specially revealled it to you and Patrick and Stephen; right? {I’m glad Mary isn’t in that personal revelation gig.}

              That’s a very convenient answer to convert falsehoods to supposed truth, but it doesn’t work since the totality of the perfect literal Holy Bible is the standard of truth. Just as Patrick’s lunch time vision fails the test of Scripture, so does yours. Nowhere does the Scriptures support the perfected revealled Sons of God evangelizing the unbelieving physically dead. The revealled Sons of God of the First Resurrection {Revelation 20: 4} reign with Christ a thousand years in the Millennial restored physical old earth. What fabrications you all make !!! Jesus Christ is coming again in great glory to rule the entire earth in righteousness from His literal throne in Jerusalem.

              • admin October 1, 2012 at 9:09 pm

                I think that I have not communicated clearly, based on your responses. When I write, “not yet apparent,” it is in reference to the idea that they have yet to repent and believe. I am not saying that the scriptural evidence for their reconciliation is “not yet apparent.”

                • Lanny A. Eichert October 1, 2012 at 10:54 pm

                  Alice, if after over six thousand years of human history it is still not apparent any unbelieving dead have repented and believed, it is definitely apparent there is NO scriptural evidence either that can be manipulated to mean they will eventually be saved. Hey guys, have you seen a non-elect resurrected person who has been reconciled to God lately? NO, none.

                  I really suggest you work out the chronology of the end times. It will show you how foolish you have been.

                  • admin October 1, 2012 at 11:29 pm

                    “if after over six thousand years of human history it is still not apparent any unbelieving dead have repented and believed”

                    That makes no sense, Lanny.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2012 at 11:42 am

                      Why not, Alice?

                • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2012 at 12:28 pm

                  Alice, if after over six thousand years of human history since Cain killed Abel it is still not apparent Cain repented and believed. How many ages have come and gone since that first murder, dear Alice, and how many more before he repents? Do you call six thousand years in the grave, sheol, hades, hell an Amazing Hope to comfort Adam and Eve over Cain’s lack of confession before he died? Is a thousand years as one day in hades for Cain: NO, the text says that for God, not man. Are Adam and Eve comforted to know Cain was cognitively reasoning every moment of every minute in hades for the last six thousand years? Is this the comfort you preach that thousands of years in torments is by far better than eternity?

                  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. {2 Peter 3: 8}

                  No, Alice, your Amazing Hope is NO hope at all. It has no proof in reality nor Scripture. Cain has not been saved and resurrected yet nor ever will be.

                  • admin October 2, 2012 at 12:57 pm

                    The reason it doesn’t make sense is that you or I have no way of verifying such information from our limited perspective. Take the light spectrum for example. The spectrum of light is huge compared to the portion of it that is visible. We can’t see most of the light spectrum. But we know that the invisible light spectrum exists, because we have other evidences of it, besides visible evidence. The same concept applies here.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2012 at 4:09 pm

                      Not so, Alice, because here we are discussing revelation and no revelation has been given that the unbeliever is saved after physical death and that is why your “amazing hope” is pure fiction.

                      Don’t you see that you can claim anything at all that is not written in the perfect literal Holy Bible, but just because you say it cannot be verified by our limited perspective doesn’t mean it is not true, so therefore it is true according to your claim. Nonsense, Alice.

                      Your “amazing hope” is proven nonsense.

                    • admin October 2, 2012 at 7:43 pm

                      Lanny, don’t you see that anyone can interpret anything at all into scripture if they try hard enough? How else do you think Christianity has 30,000+ denominations that all believe theirs is the right interpretation? The Spirit of God opens the book and allows the believer to understand concepts that go way beyond the book. I could quote from the book to give evidence, but you will not see it or hear it. You ask for revelation, I point to it, you read it through the eyes of Adam and a long tradition of doctrine. That’s pretty much the pattern of our conversations. I grow weary of the pointless ping-pong and disengage for a while, until the Spirit prompts me to give it another go. And right now, I’m still disengaged, unless you have something new to say that you haven’t said already.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2012 at 11:26 pm

                      Alice, don’t you see that anyone can interpret anything at all into scripture if they try hard enough? How else do you think Alice developed her fictional amazing hope doctrine?

                    • admin October 3, 2012 at 10:35 am

                      By discovering “that anyone can interpret anything at all into scripture if they try hard enough” it helps open my eyes to all the misinterpretation people (including myself) have done over the years, and then I am able to see more clearly, transcending all the human junk, the ideas God communicates.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2012 at 3:41 am

                      Alice: to understand concepts that go way beyond the book.

                      If any woman shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any woman shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2012 at 4:03 am

                      And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets ***. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. {2 Chronicles 18: 21}

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2012 at 11:36 am

                      Alice and her friends don’t know what spirit they hear.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert October 2, 2012 at 4:11 pm

                    But Alice you haven’t faced how foolish your “amazing hope” is to Adam and Eve.

                    • admin October 2, 2012 at 7:33 pm

                      Please explain why Adam and Eve should have any less hope than the rest of us?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2012 at 12:00 am

                      Alice, that Adam and Eve should have any less hope than the rest of us? Are Adam and Eve comforted to know Cain was cognitively reasoning every moment of every minute in hades for the last six thousand years? Is this the comfort you preach that thousands of years in torments is by far better than eternity? This is your idea of hope? Six thousand years and counting for Cain with no ETA for God’s saving grace? No less hope for the rest of us? No less than six thousand years and counting? No, Alice, your Amazing Hope is NO hope at all. Can’t you see that? It has no proof in reality nor Scripture.

                      I have heard many such things: miserable comforters are ye all. {Job 16: 2}

                    • admin October 3, 2012 at 10:34 am

                      Wow. I never said those things. This is ridiculous Lanny. It’s barely even worthy my time to read and approve the comment.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2012 at 12:14 pm

                      Alice doesn’t want to be responsible for her words: why Adam and Eve should have any less hope than the rest of us. She doesn’t realize her statement means why we should have any more hope than Adam and Eve. Her hope is fair all around, she says; but it still is no hope at all. Cain hasn’t yet believed and been resurrected, has he, and it is six thousand years and counting? Those you loved who died without confessing Christ will burn for more than six thousand years, and you call that amazing hope, dear Alice? You live in your own make-believe world that has no foundation because you long ago “disconnected” from the perfect literal Holy Bible thinking in your pride that if you tried hard enough you could figure out all things and you are still trying to get where you’ll never reach.

                      Ten Bible verses tell the whole store of no possible Gospel available after death. Ten Bible verses proves you absolutely false, dear Alice. You “disconnect” because you cannot render them harmless to your visoinary doctrine. Psalm 6: 5; 31: 17; 49: 14; 88: 5, 10 – 12; 115: 17; Ecclesiastes 9: 10; Isaiah 38: 18. You “disconnect” because John 3: 35 “all things” also means eternal torment by the next verse, John 3: 36. Patrick “disconnected” because his use of Isaiah 26:9 is undone by the next two verses, Isaiah 9: 10 & 11, also meaning eternal torment. To date, those ten verses stand undisputed to all of you.

                      For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
                      let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
                      they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
                      among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
                      Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
                      The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
                      for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
                      For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

                    • admin October 3, 2012 at 8:59 pm

                      Why are you replying to me in third person?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 4, 2012 at 1:05 am

                      Alice, is that a problem for you? I’ve done it before many times and not to you only. You are more clearly identified by your name. I intend no other meaning.

                    • admin October 4, 2012 at 8:26 am

                      No, it’s not a problem. I was just wondering.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 4, 2012 at 1:03 pm

                      Alice, you aught to wonder about the ten verses, John 3: 36, and Isaiah 26: 10 & 11; particularly why you and Patrick misused your verses and why the ten verses stand undisputed to all of you.

                      For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
                      let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
                      they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
                      among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
                      Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
                      The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
                      for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
                      For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

                    • admin October 5, 2012 at 12:14 am

                      Engaging you in this would be like two people arguing about the Doppler effect. Mr. Skeptic is sitting on a park bench, and a car goes by with the horn blaring. There is an apparent upward shift of sound as it approaches Mr. Skeptic and an apparent downward shift as it moves away from Mr. Skeptic. Mr. Skeptic gathers passers by as witnesses, that they, too, heard the car horn change pitch as the car passed. Mrs. Scientist is driving the car holding her hand down on the horn, and she passes Mr. Skeptic as he sits on a park bench observing. There is no upward or downward shift of frequency in the sound waves. She’s got a special gadget that measures it. She’s got the data to evidence the steady frequency. Does the sound of the horn change the moment the car passes the park bench or does the sound of the horn remain the same?

                      Do the dead know or do or think anything at all? Do the dead remain aware even after their bodies have failed? I think it is most likely that a strong argument can be made for both views. And both views may, in fact, be accurate.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 5, 2012 at 1:45 am

                      So, Alice, your human arguments are more sound than the literal perfect Holy Bible that ends with a populated Lake of Fire wirhout remedy in the last Revelation given of its collection? Your arguments are weightier than Jesus’ prophetic prayful statement to the Holy Father {John 17: 12} that Judas Iscariot is perished without remedy? weightier than Jesus’ statement, “I never knew you” {Matthew 7: 23}? weightier than their names never in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world {Revelation 17: 8}? weightier than Jusus’ thrice stated fire and worms of Mark 9: 43 – 48 or Luke 16: 19 – 31 where the rich man in thirst remembers?

                      No, Alice, your arguments are no match for the whole of Scripture and shows the evil intention of the unbelieving heart to escape the whole counsel of God given in His perfect Holy Bible that He by his “faithfulness” has preserved. When you minimize the Bible you minimize God’s faithfulness and write contrary to your blog’s intented purpose stated in its title, Who God Is and What God Does. You corrupt your own blog site. I wish you’d stop perverting the Bible and start trusting it with all of your heart.

                      Consider also that you must argue against chronology and yet God has included so much chronological information in His Book: geneologies, history of the Kings of Israel even having one labelled Chronicles, Luke’s two orderly accounts, the Gospel and the Acts. Why would He not include running chronologies in the Revelation and prophetic books? You just give up trying to divide them into their proper settings. It is as obvious as can be to dispensational Christian fundamentalists because we take God at each word He gives knowing He preserved every spelling of His individual words. I wish you had faith in God’s individual words. It sometimes looks like your desire.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 5, 2012 at 2:05 am

                      Alice, have you considered Galatians 3: 16?

                      Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

                      Do you see here we have an argument presented on the basis of whether a word is singular or plural? That’s the difference in the spelling of a single word with its article, whether it is τῷ σπέρματι or τοῖς σπέρμασιν. I think this verse of the Holy Bible is the most absolute best practical proof of the trustworthiness of the Holy Bible there is apart from Jesus’ own declarations of its stability.

                      Will you give the Holy Bible your absolute trust based on this verse, Alice?

                    • admin October 7, 2012 at 3:57 pm

                      The Word of God has my absolute trust, and the Word of God was made flesh and lived among us. I agree with Abraham’s seed = Christ. “…because of Him, and through Him, and to Him are the all things; to Him is the glory – to the ages.”

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 5, 2012 at 3:00 pm

                      Do you realize, Alice, what Galatians 3:16 involves? Half a millennium of preserved oral tradition between Abraham and Moses; a millennium and a half of scribal accuracy between Moses and Paul; a millennium and a half through the dark ages from Paul to the Reformation; and a half millennium between the Reformation and you and me. God preserved His accuracy through all of that right down to the spelling of every word, without missing a letter, jot, or tittle. How can you not trust His Holy Bible absolutely completely?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2012 at 5:04 pm

                      Alice, you playing with me again? “The Word of God has my absolute trust, and the Word of God was made flesh and lived among us.” I suspect we aren’t even talking the same language again. I’m talking about the Holy Bible, written with pen and ink, and you know right well I mean for you to give it your absolute trust. Your statement proves your refusal upon which your lack of a foundation for your faith rests. Your statement is nothing more than nice sounding words without any real meaning, mere theory/idea, without reality.

                      The singular verses plural of Galatians 3: 16 is proof positive God preserves His written Holy Bible perfectly for His mortal saints throughout the generations and cultures. Those who think not prove themselves to be unbelievers.

                    • admin October 7, 2012 at 6:15 pm

                      “You search the Scriptures, because you suppose that in them you will find the Life of the Ages; and it is those Scriptures that yield testimony concerning me; and yet you are unwilling to come to me that you may have Life.”

                      “It is He also who has made us competent to serve Him in connexion with a new Covenant, which is not a written code but a Spirit; for the written code inflicts death, but the Spirit gives Life.”

                      My foundation of faith is certainly not in pen and ink. Yes, pen and ink may be “measurable” reality, as we currently understand “reality,” but the Word transcends all of this. If this makes me an unbeliever by your standards, so be it. Thankfully I am not judged according to your standards, but according to the righteousness of Christ.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2012 at 11:03 pm

                      Alice, the singular verses plural of Galatians 3: 16 is proof positive God is the God of pen and ink Who preserves His written Holy Bible perfectly for His mortal saints throughout the generations and cultures. To look to another god who cannot preserve the written spelling words is to have an impotent god and not the Saviour of the Holy Bible. Such a derived salvation is no salvation at all and no hope at all. Please see that, my dear Alice. Galatians 3: 16 is pleading with you.

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 5:02 pm

            Hi Lannie

            I really appreciate all the statements that you have made. I will deal with each one separately.

            (1) by applying the “all creation” of Romans 8: 18 – 23 to unbelievers when “the ground” of Genesis 3: 17 – 19 is meant. He errs

            1. I can agree that creation can include the ground, I have no problem with that whatsoever. However, there is a problem you have with the first reason you gave and that is: Are not all men including all sinners part of creation and did not the Word of God say ALL CREATION and not just the ground alone, is suffering birth pangs- travailing for the manifestation of the sons of God, even we who have the firstfruits are groaning and travailing within ourselves? The second reason is the very word creature creation is translated from the Greek word ktisis, meaning original formation. THE ORIGINAL FORMATION IS CHRIST. Christ is the beginning of the creation of God. (Rev 3:14) We all were created in Christ and chosen in Him before the foundation of the world (Col 1:20 Ephesian 1:4). That which was created and chosen in the beginning was spirit. The material body was later formed out of the dust of the earth, and later through the process of birth. But when we were birthed into this world we forgot who we were in the beginning and we were birthed into the bondage of vanity not willingly but by reason of him who has subjected all of creation to hope of being saved out of vanity. and it is the part in us the seed of Christ in man which is bound by vanity of sin that is travailing to be set free from the bondage of corruption, the bondage of sin. In the sinner that seed remains ungerminated. In those who are born from above the seed has germinated and is now growing up in us until it is time for the sons of God to be fully revealed and manifested to the world. And when the revelation of the sons of God takes place in the first fruits, then they will deliver ALL CREATION into the same liberty of the glory that they enjoy and possess in Christ Jesus. The law of firstfruits is simply that whatever the firstfruits are the rest of the harvest will be the exact same thing.

            F.Y.I . Here is a verse that shows that the word ktisis translated as creation or creatures refers to men.

            Mar 16:15 KJV And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every CREATURE.

            Creature in that verse is the very same word translated in Romans 8 as creature. In Acts Peter interpreted what Jesus commanded in Mark 16:15 this way

            Act 10:42 KJV And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. So as you can see Every creature means every man God created that are fallen. Colossians chapter one bears witness to that fact in verse 23

            Col 1:23 KJV If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every CREATURE which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

            There is no record in acts or any of His epistles where that Paul preached to the ground, sheep, goats eagles oxen or any other creature in his travels. I can safely say that He preached only to men.

            Grace and Peace Patrick

            • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2012 at 11:39 pm

              Patrick, Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual {1 Corinthians 15: 46} easily proves your version of the Mormon Pre-existence totally false which also invalidates everything else you propose.

              How long have you read me on this site and you don’t know to stay away from anything related to the Mormon false religion? Were you once a Mormon?

              • admin October 8, 2012 at 12:04 am

                How would it invalidate everything else he proposes? I don’t understand that kind of logic. What if he proposed that the earth is round? Does that mean the earth is not round, just because it comes from someone who you disagreed with once about something that remotely resembles Mormon teaching?

                • Lanny A. Eichert October 8, 2012 at 1:43 pm

                  See my October 8, 2012 at 12:39 am Patrick, when His judgment

              • Patrick Strickland October 11, 2012 at 7:01 pm

                Actually Lanny you again build a straw man argument. For one I am not nor was I ever a Mormon Nor do I want to be one. I only use the bible to prove what I am saying.

                Now if you don’t agree with what I say that is ok. As I have told you before you will not be able to understand nor accept what I am saying as truth unless the Holy Spirit teaches it to you.

                The second reason is actually very simple, Most men do not have a revelation that they were created in Him in the beginning Even though numerous scriptures declare this fact. So to those who do not have that revelation they consider their beginning as coming from being in Adam. They are convinced that their beginning was first in Fallen Adam, which is the Natural body. Then comes the spiritual reality which the natural was only a type and shadow of. Check out the context closely and you will see that if we have borne the image of Adam in His fall we shall also ALL bear The image of Christ. Now in truth we are dealing with the resurrection we all have a natural body in Adam and we all will have a spiritual body like Christ’s.

                1Co 15:42-50 KJV So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                Now tell me who has not borne the image of the first Adam when they came into this world? Because if they have NOT BORNE THE IMAGE OF FALLEN ADAM then they will NOT bear the image of the heavenly. But if they have borne the image of the fallen Adam then you can be assured that they will bear the image of the Heavenly. When Christ died for all then all died, so it is a faithful saying that if we be dead with Him, we shall live with him

                2Ti 2:10-11 KJV Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (11) It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

                So tell me who did not die with Him?

                So first the natural then the spiritual really has nothing to do with us being created and chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, as scripture clearly declares WE ALL WERE.

                Col 1:16-20 For IN him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created through him, and for (ice = into) him: (17) And he is before all things, and through him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. (19) For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him to reconcile ALL THINGS INTO himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

                2Ti 1:9 KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN,

                But deals with what kind of body we have WHEN WE ENTERED INTO THIS WORLD, and what kind of body we shall have in resurrection.

                Grace and Peace Patrick

                • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2012 at 8:17 am

                  Patrick, your “Holy Spirit” is contrary to {1 Corinthians 15: 46} Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. Perhaps you are confusing God’s foreknowledge with actual creation, but I doubt that and I must consider everything you write summarily invalid based on your fabricated first creation being spiritual. An example is Hebrews 1: 7 flaming fire ministers are the angelic spirits, not resurrected human beings as you said above that considered together make up your the Lake of Fire.

                  • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2012 at 4:57 pm

                    Hi Lanny I really appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to write back and respond to me, and I also appreciate what you are saying.

                    So let us deal first with the fact that you think I am listening to another spirit. In scripture there is only one test that can be given in such an instance. You do know what scripture I am referring to?

                    1Jn 4:1-8 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are out of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (2) Here in this ye absolutely know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is out of God: (3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not out of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. (4) Ye are out of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. (5) They are out of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. (6) We are out of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not out of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. (7) Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born out of God, and absolutely knows God. (8) He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

                    So let see can I confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Now if you mean did Jesus Christ come two thousand years ago in the flesh Why yes I can confess that Jesus Christ came two thousand years ago in the flesh. But there is a deeper meaning to that scripture and that is Jesus Christ is come in my flesh right now as He promised he would come in John 14:18-23. Christ is in me and it is this very same Christ that is in me that is teaching me and guiding me into ALL truth. I John 2:27 Christ purchased this body at the cross and it belongs to Him to do with as He pleases. I Cor 6:19,20 I can honestly say that I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live , yet not I but Christ lives in me and the life I now in the flesh, I live by the faith of the son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.

                    So as you can see I can qualify in my confession that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh both ways, therefore I pass the test with flying colors. Furthermore the ultimate test is how many do I love Why everyone even those who don’t agree with me. I can and do love all. So how can I be producing the fruit of love if I am listening to another spirit? I would not be able to, the branch cannot bear fruit unless it abide in the vine and I for one am going to continue to abide upon the vine in the love of Christ. Besides he who abides in love abides in God.. I John 4:16 I know that Christ is in me and I am in Him; and I know that the Father is in me and I am in the Father. And from John 14 we would only know this in the day when Jesus Christ is come in us, in our flesh. I would completely agree greater is He who is in me then he who is in the world.

                    Joh 14:18-20 KJV I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. (20) AT THAT DAY (AT WHAT DAY? THE DAY CHRIST COMES INTO US) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

                    Scripture even declares how our love is going to become mature perfect. I John 4:17

                    1Jn 4:17-19 KJV Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (19) We love him, because he first loved us.

                    The teaching of hell that men claim is the word of God but is really only pagan mythology that the early church allowed in to gain those who believed in it plus it had the added benefit to scare men to God, only produces terror and torment for all who hear it. In fact there are many cases of mothers killing their children because they did not want them to grow up past the age of accountability and might be lost and go to hell for all eternity. They did this because they were tormented through fear. He that has fear is not made perfect in Love; love is made perfect by coming to understand through revelation of His son in us that as He is so are we in this world. So what is true of Him becomes true of US. Jesus declared that no man can go to heaven except he who came from out of heaven first.

                    Joh 3:13-15 And no man hath ascended up into heaven, but he that came down out of heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth into him should not perish, but have eternal life.

                    Since scripture clearly declares that we all were created in Him before the world began,and not created out of nothing as religion teaches, obviously there is a major problem with what the traditions of men are teaching as truth. Religion teaches us to love only those who accept what headquarters teaches and to hate all who don’t accept what they teach by calling them heretics and consigning them to hell. If this was just four hundred years earlier I would be killed for believing what God has shown me to be truth since it is so contrary to what men have taught to be true, yet it is not against what scripture declares. Thank God that He is bring out His truth at this present time for all the world to see, and consider. I john tells us that if we say we love God and hate our brothers then we are liars and the truth is not in us.

                    When we were created in Him in the beginning we were only spirit. We did not have a body nor did we have a spiritual body; Since neither existed at that time. But when God formed Adam’s body out of the dust of the earth then we all through birth had a natural body formed for us when we entered into this world. Jesus existed before creation as a spirit and even He did not have a body until he was birthed into this earth. But through obedience unto death of the cross he planted his natural body which then was raised up three days later as a spiritual body. This is something that had never existed before which God desires for all of His body, his church to have so that he may fully manifest Himself in his Body a spiritual body which could fully interact with both the natural and spiritual worlds which He had created. First the natural then the spiritual refers to the body we have. And from our point of view our natural body is our starting place, then we receive a spiritual body like His. But when we take a view from in Christ, and not just from men then we find out that we have always been in Him, even before there was a world created. The natural is now established to be a type and shadow of what God is trying to accomplish in the spirit realm. We were just spirits created in Him in the beginning but now we are going to be so much more when he culminates all of creation in Christ. We are going to be the spiritual body he has prepared for Himself in this earth so that God can fully interact with all of the creation that he has created for us to explore.

                    May God grant you an understanding of His truth in all that He is endevouring to bring all of us into.

                    Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 16, 2012 at 1:50 am

                      Patrick, Patrick, you’re still way over the line of reality, my dear man, whether by your own imagination or a foul spirit playing with you. You propose human spirits before creation. Don’t you see the impossibility? You make two creations !!! Multiple beginnings !!! Perhaps even human deities before they become human !!!

                    • Patrick Strickland October 20, 2012 at 2:36 pm

                      You know dear sir I really do love you in Christ. Lanny Please take the time to define what reality truly is. This is a serious thing; you need to tell me what reality really is. Is reality what men in leadership of the different denominations have voted upon while usurping the right of the Lord’s anointing in them to teach them what truth really is? Or is actually listening to the voice of Jesus telling them what truth really is, is that reality? Which is it?

                      You keep insinuating that I am either following my imagination or listening to false spirits. But in actuality neither possibility can occur nor is even possible when you have faith in the following verses and actually hear the precious voice of Jesus speaking to you and obey what He tells you.

                      Joh 10:3-5 KJV To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. (4) And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. (5) And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

                      Psa 95:7-8 KJV For he is our God; and we are the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice, (8) Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

                      Joh 10:27-30 KJV My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (30) I and my Father are one.

                      My old man’s imaginations died at the cross when Jesus died and is now a stranger to me and false spirits have always been strangers since the first time I heard the voice of Jesus speaking to me. And there is absolutely nothing that can now pluck me out of His hand. Even our faith is totally dependent upon hearing him now speak to us a WORD of the LORD because faith cannot come without hearing him speak His word to us.

                      Rom 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

                      A different translation says that it is a declaration of Christ. Meaning that Christ has to speak to us the Word of the Lord, or we do not have faith that comes from God.

                      Rom 10:17 Rotherham Hence, our faith, cometh by something heard, and, that which is heard, through a declaration of Christ.

                      Now in the King James version the very word “word” comes from the Greek word rhema which literally means 1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word 1a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning 1b) speech, discourse 1b1) what one has said 1c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words) 1c1) an utterance 1c2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c2a) concerning some occurrence

                      Scripture contains a record of what he has spoken but to each individual the spirit of God has to take what was written upon the page and speak it to us so that it may become a living word to each of us and no longer just the letter upon a page that can kill us. So it is imperative for all who call themselves Christians to hear Jesus speaking to them the word of the Lord. Otherwise we may just decide for ourselves what we think it means depending upon which denomination we have chosen to attend set of ideas they hold up as truth. Now depending on which denomination you choose to attend once you accept their ideas then you will be opposed to any different denomination on many different doctrines.

                      As far as multiple beginnings I fully understand that when you read Genesis 1 that states in the beginning God created …you see it as a when it happened, but I see the beginning as a who or as where everything was created. Because Jesus Christ is the beginning of the creation of God (Rev 3:14) and He is called the beginning in Rev 22:13, and everything was created in Him as col 1:16 declares in the original Greek of that passage. So when you read in the beginning (of time) God created the heavens and the earth; I read in the beginning (in Christ) God created the heavens and the earth. In genesis one everything was created in Christ; every detail that was to be brought forth in the material world was created in Christ in the spirit, and it took God six days to bring it all he thought about into existence in the spirit as he desired it: but in Genesis two everything was lowered from the spiritual realm and formed in the earth that was needed to start God’s spiritual creation of genesis one in the natural material universe. God created man in his image and likeness and we all are now in the process of becoming that man he created in the beginning. Christ Jesus being that man and him being the head of a corporate body of men and women who will all bear His image when he is done forming all of us into his image and likeness.

                      So Lanny out of the Love of Christ in me for you I say to you TODAY if you hear his voice harden not your heart, but seek to know Him and what he considers as reality.

                      Grace and Peace patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 21, 2012 at 1:23 am

                      Patrick, it sounds to me like you’re saying the Bible is the Word of God only as it speaks to the individual when you wrote: Scripture contains a record of what he has spoken but to each individual the spirit of God has to take what was written upon the page and speak it to us so that it may become a living word to each of us and no longer just the letter upon a page that can kill us.

                      Dear Patrick, plain English is plain English and God knows plain English. “Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” {1 Corinthians 15: 46} still means just that in its context.

                      No, Patrick, Jeremiah was not in the beginning created a spirit in Christ because such an idea fits what God told him: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. {Jeremiah 1: 5} God’s foreknowledge doesn’t require creation’s actual existence {reality}.

                    • Patrick Strickland October 25, 2012 at 5:21 pm

                      Hi Lanny I hope you are doing well? I have really enjoyed our conversations very much so far and appreciate all the great questions that you keep bring up. Keep it up and may God open all of our ears fully to his voice so that we may all truly understand what He is saying to the churches.

                      You have said:

                      “Patrick, it sounds to me like you’re saying the Bible is the Word of God only it speaks to the individual when you wrote: Scripture contains a record of what He has spoken but to each individual the Spirit of God has to take what was written upon the page and speak it to us so that it may become a living word to each of us and no longer just the letter upon a page that can kill us.

                      Dear Patrick, plain English is plain English and God knows plain English.”

                      In all honesty I never said scripture speaks to the individual then it becomes the Word of God to an individual. Look closely at all the personal pronouns I have used. Scripture becomes the living Word of God to the individual person ONLY WHEN THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, WHO IS THE WORD OF GOD IN US SPEAKS TO US AND MAKES WHAT WAS DECLARED OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD AT ANOTHER TIME TO OTHERS WHO THEN WROTE WHAT THEY HEARD UPON PAGES WITH INK, AND MAKES IT ALIVE IN US, CAUSING US TO BECOME LIVING EPISTLES – LIVING WORDS OF GOD. Without the spirit of God speaking to us and making what is written alive; all we shall get from what is written is nothing but death. Scripture declares that Jesus Christ is the Word of God (John 1) and it also declares that Jesus Christ only spoke what he heard His Father saying (John 8:26; 14:8-12. We each must have the same spirit and the same mind in us that Jesus did, teaching us what to say and to do which is what the Father is saying and doing; and the Father must teach us what He actually meant by what he had written in scripture or WE WITH OUR NATURAL MINDS WILL ABSOLUTELY NOT BE ABLE TO UNDERSTAND OR EVEN RECEIVE WHAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD WANTS TO SHOW US FROM WHAT HE HAD WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE EVEN THOUGH IT MAY BE IN PLAIN ENGLISH (Matt 13:11-17; John 8:43-47; John 12:37-41; Isa 6:9-10; Isa 44:18: 2 Cor 3:1-4:7). These scriptures plus this scripture verifies that LAST FACT.

                      1Co 2:6-16 Howbeit we speak wisdom in them that are complete perfect of a full age: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world into our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. (9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us through his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? EVEN SO THE THINGS OF GOD KNOWETH NO MAN, BUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? BUT WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.

                      The Word is spirit and is life; and the spirit must quicken us. (John 6:63) Concerning scripture What is written with ink or upon a stone: which IS CALLED THE MINISTRY OF DEATH AND CONDEMNATION and therefore WILL KILL US, has a glory. But the glory it has is a glory that is passing away which is why Moses put a veil upon his face so that the children of Israel could not see the glory he had pass away. And even to this day that veil is still upon man’s minds when they read the scriptures blinding them to truth. But this veil is done away with and fully removed ONLY WHEN WE COME TO CHRIST AND BEHOLD HIS UNLIMITED UNENDING GLORY!!! And when we with an unveiled face looking into a mirror behold Christ, we are changed into the same image we behold from glory to glory even as by the spirit of the Lord and we now have this ministry, and have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty and we do not deceitfully handle the word of God but we manifest the truth because of the glory and the mercy we have received .(2 Cor 3-4:2) Now if our gospel be hid… What gospel are we talking about? Why the gospel of the glory of Christ. Now this gospel of the glory is hid to them who are lost who the god of this age has blinded the minds of them that do not have faith in the gospel of the glory of Christ the Son of God because they never heard the spirit of Christ speak to them thereby creating faith in the individual. The god of this age will not allow men to see and understand what is written in scripture. (2 Cor 4:3-4) But God has ordained a time to speak to everyone.

                      Scripture is divinely inspired BY GOD, But scripture with very few exceptions 2 cor 4:2 being one rarely calls itself the Word of the Lord. Scripture mainly uses that phrase “Word of the Lord” for Christ and what is proceeding out of the mouth of God, which is what man must live by (Matt 4:4). Throughout the old testament the phrase “the Word of the LORD came” or “the Word of God came”is used over two hundred times, yet not one time does either phrase refer to what is written upon a page but again it refers only to the spirit of Christ, who is the Word of God, that was in the prophets coming to them and teaching them what God wanted them to know. (I Peter 1:9-12), Now today Jesus Christ is our primary example of how a man must live His life, by only hearing what the Father says and speaking only that, and not our opinion of what we think scripture declares to be true. and seeing only what the Father is doing and doing that, and not living our life any way we want to and asking God to bless it.

                      God can speak whatever language we speak and understand, but to us what He says can be just like Him speaking in tongues where we do not fully understand what He is trying to say to us. So We each need to seek Him for the spirit of interpretation in order for us to actually understand what He speaks to us. Otherwise we will always come to the wrong understanding and conclusion. God is spirit and what he speaks is spirit and life, and it takes having the same spirit he inspired the word to be written to even begin to understand what he had written.

                      We can study the scriptures all day long and become ministers just like the Pharisees of old did, yet never come to truth and life found only in Him and we can because of what we have been taught by men about the scriptures even out right reject our messiah because he does not conform to our ideas we have accepted as truth; and we can, just like they did, also refuse to come to him who they testify of that we might actually have eternal life. GOD IS BRINGING US INTO THE UNITY OF THE FAITH, men in denominations think that means unity to the set of beliefs that headquarters holds up to be true. Did you know that the Baptist faith contradicts the Pentecostal faith which contradicts the Church of Christ faith, which contradicts the catholic faith which contradicts name any other denomination that studies the Scripture without stressing listening to God tell us what it actually means. The church has become a house divided is it any wonder that the church of Jesus Christ cannot stand. There is no unity of the faith between believers as long as they hold to their denominations interpretation of the scripture. But the unity of the faith is where we enter into the very same faith that Jesus had been given when His Father told him what to speak. Now remember faith cometh by hearing and hearing by what is being declared by God. The Father desires to teach all of us truth so we may be able to speak with the same spirit of faith that Jesus did.

                      Finally Lanny, We can choose from all the confusion and even contradictory ideas out there that are found in all of the different denominations there are, that teach from the scripture their opinion of what they think they say, and we can all end up believing MANY THINGS that God never ever taught at all, but we will become accepted by men, and rejected by God; or we can seek Him to teach us what He actually meant and come into a manifestation of His life and truth, where we will be rejected by religious men who think they know God because they studied a book about Him. But we will be fully accepted by God because we listened attentively and obeyed his precious voice. The choice is yours dear sir. I know which one I have chosen. I chose to seek Him and to hear His voice teach me His truth, no matter what the cost to my reputation before men. I will not be satisfied with anything less then that.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Patrick Strickland October 25, 2012 at 5:23 pm

                      Lanny has said:

                      “Dear Patrick, plain English is plain English and God knows plain English. “howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” {1 Corinthians 15: 46} still means just that in its context. “

                      Lanny we will have to disagree about how you use that scripture to try to disprove what I have said and claiming that they still mean the same thing when it is in it’s context. Sorry but They are entirely different. You endeavor to wrest it out of it’s context and try to make it say that the spirit was not first but that only what was natural then the spiritual that it points to. You try to make it say that we did not exist till we were born in the flesh. But The entire context deals with what kind of body we have first it is natural body then it is spiritual body. And as we have All borne the image of the earthly we shall all bear the image of the heavenly. Which guarantees all men shall have the same kind of body that Christ has and that they will have the same image that he has, which is the express image of the Father.. I Corinthians deals with man’s perspective after he is birthed into this world. Nothing in the context deals with our creation in Christ before the world began which is actually God’s perspective nor does anything in that passage contradict all of our creation in Christ. Before the world began.

                      2Pe 1:20 CLV knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.”
                      2Co 13:1 KJV … In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

                      I have many problems with what you have said first being if what you imply concerning the verse in question is true then in the parable of the wheat and the tares the tares would have been planted first, but they were not the wheat was, and when man slept then the enemy came in and planted the tares.(Matt 13) The wheat is Christ (John 12:24), and the children of the kingdom who share the same nature as the head of the body has(matt 13:38) the tares are the children of the wicked. In creation we read that after God created Adam he them caused a deep sleep to come upon Him. No where does it say that Adam ever woke up out of His deep sleep. Everything that happened after that is all describing the adamic dream, nightmare if you will where the enemy came in and sowed the tares into God’s field by causing the casting down of God’s creation When we were finally born into this world we thought we were the tare In fact men in religion will teach us that we are the tare but the truth is that our true nature is not the tare at all, we are the wheat, we have just forgotten who we really are when we were born after the flesh. We are told that when we wake up we shall be in His image.(Psa 17:15) We are commanded to wake to righteousness.( I cor 15:34) If we were not asleep we would not need to wake up. The context of I cor 15 contains the command to awake out of our sleep to righteousness. A sleeping man only can see the natural first, then the spiritual. An awake man will see that they have always been in Christ even before the world began, and what is true of the head is true of the body in Him.

                      Now was Christ Jesus aware before the creation of all that you see? Why absolutely yes He was. In John 17:1-5 he asked for the glory he had before the world began, which glory he laid down when he came into this world. Jesus said clearly that He knew where he came from and he knew where he was going. John 8:42-45; John 16: 28 He also stated that the men who were sleeping who were tares children of their father the devil but were very religious that they could not hear what he was saying That is a perfect example of what is going on today the churches are full of men who do not know where they came from and do not really know where they are going they hope that they will get to heaven when they die, but most are not absolutely sure they will and when someone comes and tells them the truth of who they really are in him they will not receive it. He also stated that that no man can go to heaven except the son of man that came down out of heaven.

                      Christ is not just a last name for Jesus only. But Christ is a description of a single corporate man Jesus being the head, and the church being His body. (I cor 12:12-27) I am not going to post all of those verses but just the ones that highlight the fact that Christ is one but is made up of many members.

                      1Co 12:12-14 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. (13) For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (14) For the body is not one member, but many.
                      1Co 12:20 KJV But now are they many members, yet but one body.
                      1Co 12:25-27 KJV That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. (26) And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. (27) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

                      Now we know from scripture that Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. (Heb 13:8) Christ does not change. He has always been one but made up of many members. We were all chosen in Him before the world began we were all created in Him. We all came out of Him and we shall all return back into him.

                      The same mind that Jesus has we have all been given If he was aware before the creation of the world, then all those in Him which is every man ever created were in him and aware. “As He is so are we in this world”

                      Also as another item to consider, Jesus is called the Son of God, and there are numerous passages that call us sons of God. Jesus is called the morning star Rev 22:16 and he said to the overcomer that he would give them the morning star. (Rev 2:28) What is true of Him is true for all of us who are in Him. The same life and nature the head has the whole body has. Now when God came to Job a man who was not aware of where he had come from He asked him a question that at that time He could not answer from his natural mind.

                      Job 38:4-7 KJV WHERE WAST THOU WHEN I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. (5) Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? (6) Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; (7) WHEN THE MORNING STARS SANG TOGETHER, AND ALL THE SONS OF GOD SHOUTED FOR JOY?

                      There was a time I would have just been just like Job not able to answer that question But praise the Lord I could easily tell you where I was now that God has shown me I was there in the corporate body of Christ singing and shouting for Joy with the rest of the sons of god who make up the body of Christ. But unless God opens your eyes you will never believe that, because you have this idea that foreknowledge only means God knew he would create us sometime in the future and that we do not exist until our birth in the flesh.

                      As I said before you are free to believe what ever you choose to believe concerning the bible to be true. But all I want is for His precious anointing to teach me and guide me into all truth like He said it would.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Stephen Helbig October 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm

                      Job 38:7 ~ “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” ~

                      Job 38:7 Hebrew ~

                      איוב 38:7 Hebrew OT: Westminster Leningrad Codex
                      בְּרָן־יַ֭חַד כֹּ֣וכְבֵי בֹ֑קֶר וַ֝יָּרִ֗יעוּ כָּל־בְּנֵ֥י אֱלֹהִֽים׃

                      איוב 38:7 Hebrew OT: WLC (Consonants Only)
                      ברן־יחד כוכבי בקר ויריעו כל־בני אלהים׃

                      איוב 38:7 Paleo-Hebrew OT: WLC (Font Required)
                      ברן־יחד כוכבי בקר ויריעו כל־בני אלהים׃

                      איוב 38:7 Hebrew Bible
                      ברן יחד כוכבי בקר ויריעו כל בני אלהים׃

                      English from the Hebrew ~ word to word ~ (Sang~Together~Stars~the morning~shouted~and all~the sons~of God)

                      Look at the shining constellations spreading across the great expanse of the heavens. These represent the Lord’s dwelling place in the Kingdom of His new creation people. God has set a tabernacle for the “Sun of Righteousness” “JESUS” ~ (Mal. 4:12) ~ (Christ) in the heavens–in the midst of His star-sons. ~ Many other scriptures confirm this truth. ~ Such as (Isa. 40:22), ~ which states that the Lord “stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out AS A TENT TO DWELL IN.”

                      The stars are figuratively said to sing God’s praises, as in (Psalm 19:1-6) ~ The HEAVENS declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. IN THEM HATH HE SET A TABERNACLE FOR THE SUN ~ (“The Sun of Righteousness”) ~ , Which is as a BRIDEGROOM coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.

                      (Ps 148:3). ~ Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. ~ (YOU ~ are the light of the world)

                      These all are SYMBOLS , bearing the same relation to our earth ~(symbolic). Notice they(we) answer to “Sun of Righeousness,” in the parallel, ~ see (Job 25:3,5,6a) ~ Is there any number of his armies? and upon whom doth not HIS light arise? ; Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? ~
                      —————————————————————

                      p.s. ~ Patrick, Lanny, Alice ,Mary and ALL… I truly look forward to the testimony of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is bought forth by His Spirit through your fellowship with Him, ~ (Here @ “What~God~Does”.)

                      Thank you my sisters and brothers for His grace which is brought to me through each of YOU. ~ BLESSINGS !

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 26, 2012 at 3:36 pm

                      Patrick, again you confuse reality with thought. Before the physical creation, every moral creature, as we’ve been discussing, was known in the mind of God merely as thoughts. That doesn’t necessitate “spiritual” creation. We only figuratively understand that our plans or inventions were “created” in our minds before we accomplished their design. It still remains true that I had no existence whatsoever before my parents conceived me in my mother’s womb. God made real the thoughts of His mind. Likewise those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” {Revelation 17: 8} will be born into reality according to the mind of God and of Christ to wonder at the beast and perish in the eternal Lake of Fire in eternal torment as vessels of wrath that first originated as critical thoughts in His mind from the foundation of the world. See how long God planned to destroy them in eternal torments, how long God was thinking of their torments before their actual existence? Pleasant thoughts? I doubt it, but it had to be done.

                      What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known {Romans 9: 22}

                      On Romans 9: 22 εἰ δὲ θέλων is not theoretical, but real. Translate it since God is willing to show His wrath and make His power known.

                    • Patrick Strickland November 5, 2012 at 4:20 pm

                      Hi Lanny:

                      Sorry for the long delay in responding I have so many other things that call for my time. I will try to respond sooner from now on. I can read what you post on my tablet at work on my lunch break, unfortunately It won’t let me respond. So I have to find another place where there is a connection to the internet to post to you. Unfortunately I do not have one at home so I have to go to a relatives house and use their computer to post, and I can only do that on my days off.

                      Now I asked you before what is reality but you never took the time to answer my question. Can you please define what you think reality is?

                      Now you may define reality as what you see and the existence that you have since you were born. You may even define reality as what you have studied in the bible, and think it says because someone you trust has taught you the word of God. That is fine I seriously am not going to try to change your opinion of what you think reality is. If that is where you are at in your walk with God then that is where you are at. I only share what I believe God has shown me and what scriptures he has used to show me what is truth. You may define foreknowledge as only God thinking about us, that is fine, if that is how you want to see it. But the Greek literally means to know before Just like if I went to my high school reunion for the first time in twenty years having never made contact with anyone since I graduated from school, and knew before all my friends and enemies that I went to school with. But now at the reunion getting to know them again. That to me is the meaning of foreknew. But it does not really matter what either of our personal opinions of what we think the word means is: God alone knows just how he defines the meaning of the words he used and what he fully intends for it to accomplish. If we don’t ask him what that meaning is then our opinions of what we think the word means will not help anyone really come into the life and truth he wants to give to us in His spirit. We are guaranteed that God will accomplish just what He intended to do with His word and that what He truly intended to accomplish with His word shall not return to him void. He never promised to do what we think the scriptures means or even our opinion and expectations of it. Now we must recognize that our opinions of the word are not His opinion or expectation of what He is going to do. Without seeking Him and hearing Him speak to us we shall never know what he is actually going to accomplish.

                      Isa 55:6-13 KJV Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: (7) Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. (8) For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. (9) For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. (10) For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (12) For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. (13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off.

                      I have sought God opinion and have sought Him to teach me and Like Jesus I can say with full assurance that I know where I came from and I know where I am going to say anything less then that would be a lie; because I heard God teach me. I believe that what he said is not a lie and is truth and reality. Reality to me is not what I see which is only temporary. Reality is that which God speaks and which has no beginning nor ending which has always existed, and will always exist. Christ fits that bill. Christ who is one but is made up of many members, Jesus being the head and us making up the body. Christ who is the same yesterday today, and throughout all of the ages. Now The Law is our schoolmaster to bring us into Christ. That is it’s ultimate purpose but the law also blinds us and veils our eyes until the day we do come to Christ in the fulness of His glory. We can meet Jesus as saviour under the law and know that he is now in us; but knowing Him as Christ and entering fully into Him is where we begin to rule and reign in Him is something totally different. You can be born again – a babe- outer court- meet Jesus at Passover; and become spirit filled- a child- holy place – meet Jesus at Pentecost and still be under tutors and governors, called the law. A babe and a child spend most of their time at the brazen altar seeking God for the forgiveness of sins. But when you go and enter into perfection completion the mature man that is found only in Christ – the holy of Holies – meeting Jesus at the feast of Tabernacles then you are no longer under tutors of the Law which blind you to the truth of who you really are in Him. Then God teaches you himself, and lives in you and you begin to fully discover what is true of Jesus Christ is now true of you because you are one with the Father and the Son even as they are one with each other.

                      Now If we live by only our opinion and the opinions of other men who teach what the systems of religion teach and what they or even what we think the word of God means without hearing His precious voice teach us, then we all have missed Him; and we will not enter into His truth as He intended. We must seek Him and Hear Him for ourselves we must come to the place where we let Him declare what He actually meant by what He had written or we shall never enter into the results he wants to bring us into. We have been given the mind of Christ, but we must let that same mind that was in Him operate in us like it operated in Jesus or we will live in error never realizing just how great that error really is. Jesus only did what he heard his Father say and He only did what He saw His Father doing. His eye was totally single. He did not serve God and Mammon, No He absolutely only sought the Lord so that He could do just what His Father wanted him to do. Like Jesus we must only just hear His voice teaching us what to say, and what to do. Jesus declared that if our eye be single our whole body shall be full of light. Jesus eye is single and His whole body is full of light and if you can receive it you are the body of Christ and you are full of light if you will let the same mind of Christ, which has a single eye be in you and operate in you the same way it operated in Jesus the head of the body. But in order for His mind to operate in you you must give up your thoughts and opinions and let The Father teach you His word and what He fully intended to accomplish or you will not truly have the mind of Christ operating in your life.

                      Now if I am confusing reality with thought as you suppose then why did not God ask Job Where were you when I THOUGHT that the morning stars sang together and when I THOUGHT the sons of God shouted for Joy?

                      No God did not say it that way he treated it like they existed as He created everything and that they were singing and shouting for Joy not in just his thoughts but in reality of the spirit realm.

                      As to Romans 9:22 God has absolutely determined wrath upon man, no question about that. But at the same time he has determined, by the way the same word θέλω in the Greek, that He will have all men saved and come into the truth I Tim 2:4. He is not willing that any should perish but that all to come into repentance 2 Peter 3:9. God has commanded all men to repent Acts 17:30. That is not a request. Scripture is also clear that his pleasure is to gather together in one all in Christ.

                      Eph 1:9-10 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

                      Now in your opinion and the opinion of much of religious systems of Christianity God will NOT get His pleasure nor His determination of saving all men and gathering all men in one in Christ, because He actually planned from before the foundation to torture most men in the lake of fire as his determined will. Now we know from scripture that All things were created for His pleasure, so in your version God’s unending wrath actually is for his pleasure. This is the major problem with this view which is held by much of the church and unfortunately it blackens the very character of God. God becomes a schizophrenic split personality: One personality determining to save all men and another one determining to torture most men who won’t get saved or who have never heard of His saving grace. If the second personality of God get’s its way then God becomes a worse evil then Satan could ever dream of becoming. God becomes first a sadistic monster, but that is not the least of our problems since all men were created in Christ, chosen in him and came out of Him Has God actually become a masochist? Does this view cause God to become a liar before men? Absolutely because He declares he is the savior of all men, the savior of the whole world but he only saves a lucky few and not the whole world. Worse He becomes someone we cannot truly trust to keep His word. He declares that if we ask anything according to His will then he hears us and we know we have what we ask for, and we are told to pray for all men so they can be saved and come into the knowledge of truth according to God’s will in I Timothy 2 :1-4 Now we cannot truly pray for the salvation of all men if we believe that God is not going to save all men, because he has determined to torture most men because of His wrath. My what are we to pray for the salvation of all men which He determined to do or the determined unending wrath to be poured out. How can we trust God to answer our prayers if we can’t even pray in faith because of the opinions of men that we have been taught to live by. Both passage concerning His determined will must be fulfilled. Both sets of passage’s will accomplish what He sent them to do. If our understanding contradicts what He sent the word to accomplish then our interpretation is wrong.

                      Gods determined wrath must be for a purpose and since He has determined and actually sworn by Himself to save all men then that purpose for wrath is to remove all that hinders us from accepting or even rejecting the gift that has been offered to all men. But Eventually through judgment and wrath against their unrighteousness and wicked ways all men will finally let go of their evil ways and accept that Jesus Christ is Lord and they will be gathered into Oneness in Him, where they will have righteousness and strength, and be able to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord into the glory that he possess.
                      Scripture declares that when God comes to be glorified IN HIS SAINTS THEN HE IS GOING TO POUR HIS WRATH OUT FROM HIS SAINTS WHO AS HIS TEMPLES NOW POSSES HIS PRECIOUS PRESENCE AND THE POWER OF HIS GLORY.

                      2Th 1:7-10 KJV And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (10) WHEN HE SHALL COME TO BE GLORIFIED IN HIS SAINTS, AND TO BE ADMIRED IN ALL THEM THAT BELIEVE (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

                      The son of perdition will be destroyed at the brightness of His coming in His temple and the son of perdition is nothing less than the man of sin between your ears that refuses to allow God to be Lord of His temple, and who thinks that it is lord of the body and can do what ever it wants to do, whenever it wants to do it. We are not appointed to wrath but to salvation, That is the real you, not who you think you are from birth in the flesh, however the son of perdition between our ears is appointed unto the wrath of God because it holds the truth in unrighteousness. We must seek God to teach us his word or we shall never believe his plan to save all men.

                      Now the reason most Christians have never heard the voice of God for themselves is because they serve an image of God that has become an idol to them. An image that has a mouth but does not speak, has ears but does not hear, eyes but do not see; and unfortunately for us, we become just like what we worship.

                      Psa 115:3-8 KJV But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (4) Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. (5) They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: (6) They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: (7) They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. (8) They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them.

                      This image of God that men hold up as truth is an idol because he cannot save All Men.

                      Isa 45:18-24 KJV For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (19) I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

                      But God has commanded all the ends of the earth to look and be saved

                      (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

                      Now this is why we must each hear God speak for ourselves otherwise if we don’t then we can rest assured that we are in error, and we can know that the God we are serving is nothing but an idol created from the imaginations of our hearts of what we think God is like. Our hearts and our opinions of what we think the bible says do not declare what truth really is only hearing God speaking to us can declare what truth really is.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 7, 2012 at 9:24 pm

                      Patrick, why did God ask Job? So that he would answer that he wasn’t even there to know anything. Get a hold of reality, will you, Patrick?

                      Jesus taught the Scriptures. How did He teach the meaning of the written words? How does His teaching square with your seeking meanings for words?

                    • Patrick Strickland November 12, 2012 at 5:07 pm

                      Lanny has said:

                      “Patrick, why did God ask Job? So that he would answer that he wasn’t even there to know anything. Get a hold of reality, will you, Patrick?”

                      Lanny What is reality will you answer that? I have asked you that for the last three posts but for some reason you keep avoiding answering that question of what reality really is?

                      Reality is what God says it is, not what men have voted upon or what their denominations may have accepted as truth.

                      One of the definitions of reality from Webster’s dictionary is:

                      “Actual being or existence of any thing; truth; fact; in distinction from mere appearance.”

                      Jesus Christ is truth. Our actual being and existence starts from being created in Christ (Col 1:16; Eph 2:10) Chosen in him (Eph 1:4) and we were saved and called with an holy calling according to his own purpose and grace, which was given to us IN Christ Jesus before the world even began.

                      2Ti 1:9 KJV Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                      However from our view point that religion teaches us; We appear to have our start in fallen Adam but that is scripturally not the full truth of the matter.

                      Truth is reality, not the mere appearance of what our five senses can ascertain, or what men teach us as truth, which only has an appearance of reality but is not reality.

                      As to Job I have already covered that he was just like we all are when we have been birthed into this world we do not remember or even know where we were In the beginning. So any one asked that question by god in that state will not be able to answer it just like Job could not in his fallen carnal mind. But that does not mean that after God shows you by revelation that you cannot answer that question and say that you were there in Christ as one of many morning stars singing and one of many sons of God shouting. Since both terms refer first to Christ Jesus, and then to overcomers in Christ, who make up His body. Without revelation of Christ and what I mean by that is without Christ speaking to you and telling you directly there is absolutely no way you will believe.

                      Lanny has said

                      “Jesus taught the Scriptures. How did He teach the meaning of the written words? How does His teaching square with your seeking meanings for words?”

                      That is simple to answer. JESUS ONLY SPOKE WHAT HE HEARD HIS FATHER SAYING AND HE ONLY DID WHAT HE SAW HIS FATHER DOING. Jesus spent time communing and seeking the will of the Father so that he could know what to say and do during each and every day. If The Father did not speak he did not speak but if God spoke and told him to say something he spoke what he heard His Father say.

                      Joh 10:24-28 KJV Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. (25) Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

                      Joh 14:10-12 KJV Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

                      Joh 5:19-25 KJV Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (20) For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. (21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. (22) For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: (23) That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. (24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

                      Joh 7:15-18 KJV And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? (16) Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (18) He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

                      However, when Jesus spoke to the multitudes He only spoke in parables so that they COULD NOT UNDERSTAND what he was saying.

                      Mat 13:10-17 KJV And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? (11) He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (12) For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (16) But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (17) For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

                      Jesus would not even speak to the multitudes without speaking in parables.
                      Mat 13:34 KJV All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

                      Let us look at Paul for a second how did he learn scriptures? Well as a Pharisee when he was known as Saul he sat at the feet of Gamaliel and was trained in the exactness of their religion and he was so zealous for the defense of his religion he began rounding up and killing Christians. Acts 22:3 See learning at the feet of men only produces an attitude just like Saul had. If you don’t believe just like we have been taught then you are an enemy worth of death. You can see that very same spirit in the history of the church If you did not believe what head quarters said was truth then they persecuted you and killed you. The Catholics did it, Luther did it, The inquisition is a drak stain on the history of Christianity. Christianity by learning at only the feet of men has the very same attitude that Saul had.

                      But when Saul had a run in with Jesus on the road to Damascus Jesus gave Him a new name and Paul did not go OUT AND SEEK to be taught the scripture at any man’s feet but he sought ONLY to be taught by the revelation of THE SON JESUS CHRIST IN HIMSELF. And when God revealed His son in Paul then he knew what he must preach.

                      Gal 1:11-18 KJV But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (12) For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. (13) For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (14) And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. (15) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, (16) TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (17) Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. (18) Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

                      PAUL LEARNED THE SAME WAY JESUS DID BY SEEKING THE FATHER TO SHOW HIM THE TRUTH OF WHAT TO SAY. Jesus and Paul are both our examples of how we are to learn what to say and that is we need to seek the Father till we have a revelation of His dear son in us. Otherwise all we say concerning the scripture will be just the opinion of men we have sat under.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 13, 2012 at 6:16 am

                      Patrick, ” in distinction from mere appearance.”

                      Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. {Jeremiah 1: 4 & 5}

                      “Before I formed thee” is creation, my dear man, and refers to foreknowledge, not real existence. Just as God knew all His “few” elect before the creation, so also He knew all His damned for all eternity to be the majority of humanity.

                      You wrote: JESUS ONLY SPOKE WHAT HE HEARD HIS FATHER SAYING AND HE ONLY DID WHAT HE SAW HIS FATHER DOING. So you think His Father avoided revealling how these interpretations of yours were to be had? Sure, Patrick, so that you have NO justification for your unreal interpretations.

                      God’s saints are dependent upon and limited to God’s methods of interpretation, not their own private ideas, as displayed by God-in-the-flesh, the man Christ Jesus. He set the example.

                    • Patrick Strickland November 22, 2012 at 12:06 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Happy thanksgiving to you and all of your family.

                      Lanny of all the statements you have made outside using the scripture quote and quoting what I had written in bold this one statement you made is the only one that I can fully agree with.

                      “God’s saints are dependent upon and limited to God’s methods of interpretation, not their own private ideas, as displayed by God-in-the-flesh, the man Christ Jesus. He set the example. “

                      Amen Jesus Christ absolutely set the example for us to follow. I completely agree. What method did Jesus use he listened to the Father and spoke only what he heard. He gave us the same mind he had if we all will let it function in us then we will do the exact same thing He did. We have been given the anointing to teach us and guide us into ALL truth.

                      1Jn 2:20 KJV But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

                      1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

                      If we do not listen to the Holy Ghost speaking to us then there is absolutely no way for any of us to come into the truth. Problem is that the church is filled with men and women who have never ever heard the voice of Jesus speaking to them or even heard the voice of the Father teaching them truth. Carnal minded men have followed the opinions of what other men think the scriptures declare and have created denominations over what they think scripture means. The carnal mind is an enemy of God, and refuses to follow God. (Rom 8:7) This is not something new even in Paul’s days it was beginning to show up. If we have the same mind of Christ which is a spiritual mind then we should all be thinking the same way Jesus did. But the truth is we have not learned to put off our carnal thoughts and let the mind of Christ function in us. The church is filled with men following the opinions of other men. Men saying I am of Paul, and I am of Apollos; I am of Calvin; I am of Arminius; I am of Baptist; I am of church of Christ; I am of Catholic: I am of etc, etc, etc the names we call ourselves are almost endless.

                      1Co 1:10-13 KJV Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (11) For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. (12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. (13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

                      1Co 3:1-9 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. (8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building.

                      We can get a false sense of pride when we say we are of Paul or what ever we are following because what we are actually saying is I am of Paul and you are not therefore you are worthy of God’s judgment. Many in the churches can even say I am of Jesus, but you are not, therefore you will burn forever. It gives us a sense of being better then someone else who is not following what we are following. And sad to say if that is our attitude then that is nothing but the carnal mind which is an enemy of God functioning in us. Carnal minded men are saved, but carnal minded men are only babes who are still on the milk of the word of God and are not able to understand and digest the meat of the word of God.

                      Heb 5:9-6:3 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; (10) Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. (11) Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing. (12) For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. (13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. (14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are perfect – of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (6:1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto the state of completion, perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

                      Milk is the doctrines of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Meat on the other hand is pressing into the state of being complete and perfect in Him. Most of the church is only drinking milk for their subsistence, it is the rare individual in this day and age that desires to do whatever it takes to grow up into being complete in Him. God desires for all of us to come into that place. But God knows that only a few will attain to it first and that this first fruit in Christ will bring all creation into the same liberty of the glory that they walk in. (Rom 8:18-25)

                      There is only one answer and that is coming to the place where you hear God speak and teach us what he meant. So that when you do say I am of Christ that we recognize that no man is excluded but that all men are also out of the same source you are from…we all are out of Christ, but most just do not know it because they are still enemies in their own minds, and that our job is to help them come into the same mind of Christ that he has given to all men. We were all created in Christ before the foundation of the world this is a biblical fact (Col 1:16). And not my opinion. God at the fulness of the dispensation is going to gather together in one all in Christ (Eph 1:10,11). This is also a biblical fact concerning His will and is not my opinion. We will all eventually recognize that Christ is all and in you all.(Col 3:11)

                      Lanny has said the following:

                      ““Before I formed thee” is creation, my dear man, and refers to foreknowledge, not real existence. Just as God knew all His “few” elect before the creation, so also He knew all His damned for all eternity to be the majority of humanity. “

                      Scripture declares, “Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.” Now, the funny thing about last part of your statement is that there is absolutely not one single witness in all of scripture that declares that God foreknew or even predestined the damned to be tortured in hell for all eternity. Not even one witness, you know what that means that it is not established which means as a word it is not confirmed, will not be made good, nor will it be fulfilled as a word of God but it is nothing but just the opinion of some man… John Calvin to be exact.

                      Look up the verb foreknow – proginosko, the noun foreknowledge – prognosis, the verb predestinate, predestinated, – proorizo; and check out the usage of each one and you will see that not one time is anyone predestined to hell for all eternity. You cannot find predestinate, foreknew, and hell in any verses together. Here is what Paul did say:

                      Rom 8:29-30 KJV For whom he did FOREKNOW, HE DID PREDESTINATE TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

                      Who did God not foreknow? No one!! God foreknew everyone who was created in Christ – and that is everyone ever born sinner or saint; and everyone He foreknew is predestined to be conformed into the very image of His Son. I Cor 15:45-50 confirms that we are going to all bear the same image that Christ Jesus has. There is absolutely not one single man who is predestined to hell for all eternity, because God has predestined all he foreknew to be conformed into the very same image that Jesus has.

                      Now usage of a word determines it’s meaning. Scripture interprets scripture. And the word foreknow is from the greek word proginosko and means “to know before”. You keep saying it means to think about before, but that is not the true meaning of the word. It actually means to have a relationship with before. Where you knew them and they knew you. The word is used only 5 times in scripture. There is a law of first usage that basicially says that the first use of the word carries very significant meaning for the word used. The first time proginosko is used is found in Acts 26:5 where Paul was talking about how the Jews that he knew before could bear witness that he lived his life after the straitest sect of the Jews religion, the Pharisees. Paul knew the Jews and they knew him before he became a christian that is how they could testify to what sect of the Jewish religion he belonged to. The next usage I want to point out which happens to be the last usage of the word is found in I Peter and refers to Jesus Christ being foreknown of God, so let us look at that passage:

                      1Pe 1:18-23 YLT having known that, not with corruptible things–silver or gold–were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, (19) but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted–Christ’s– (20) FOREKNOWN, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, (21) who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God. (22) Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly, (23) being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God–living and remaining–to the age;

                      Now Jesus Christ was totally aware that he had a relationship with the Father before He came into this world. God fore knew Christ He did not just think about Christ Jesus He knew Him through a relationship that they had together before Jesus came into this world; and Christ Jesus knew the Father through a relationship he had with Him before He came into this world. John 17:1-5 supports this idea when Jesus asked for the glory he had with the Father in the beginning to be given back to him. And this idea is further supported with all the scriptures that declare that Jesus knew where he came from and that he was going back to where he came from. (John 3:13, 27-36) God did not just think about Jesus when he foreknew him. Jesus Christ knew his Father and shared in his Father’s glory before the world began.

                      Now if as you call it “my unreal interpretation” is actually just my opinion and my thoughts are the source of it then you have absolutely nothing to worry about it will never come to pass. God will never honor it so it will never happen. But if I am actually seeking the father to teach me and speak to me what he actually meant by what he had written, and he has spoken to me then it is no longer just my interpretation, but it is His opinion, and He is then obligated to fulfill his word as Isaiah has stated “My word shall not return unto me void but it shall accomplish what I sent it to do.” Nor can it be remotely considered unreal if He spoke. So maybe it would benefit you to start seeking Him till you actually Hear him speak so you can know what he actually sent his word to do.

                      As for me I hope you don’t mind but I will continue to seek Him to teach me just as He taught Jesus and I will seek to come to the place where I only speak what I hear my Father say just like Our example Jesus did. And if that is considered an unreal interpretation by you, then that is your problem and not mine.. I would rather have God’s unreal interpretation that can be found in scripture then your “real interpretation” that cannot be found at all.

                      Have a great holiday
                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 22, 2012 at 10:54 pm

                      Patrick, you err because you refuse Romans 9: 22, 23.
                      The vessels of wrath are not the same as the vessels of mercy.

                      Also Jesus nowhere taught anyone existed before being physically conceived in their mother’s womb.

                      Jesus did teach Matthew 7: 13 & 14 having full knowledge “many” would perish eternally.

                      Why won’t you believe what Jesus taught? I hope you had a miserable Thanksgiving in your unbelief.

                    • admin November 22, 2012 at 11:18 pm

                      Lanny, seriously?! Wow.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 23, 2012 at 2:01 pm

                      Yes, seriously I wish the unbelief of all of you and your friends would bring you to misery in this life to humble each one’s fantasy to the acceptance of the true Gospel before they physically die. May you all be miserable unto that day, unless you are the damned God chose to that condemnation of eternal torment whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world {Revelation 17: 8}.

                    • Patrick Strickland November 26, 2012 at 6:16 pm

                      Hi Lanny:

                      Did you have a great Thanksgiving? I know I did, the presence of God filled the house on more than one occasion, it was a most blessed day.

                      You know dear sir I use to believe the same thing you do. Then one day I actually heard his voice. I had been a christian for 5 years and I had just gotten out of the military and had traveled back to Fort Worth where I had lived before entering the air force. My brother asked me to move in with Him. When I got to town His car was stolen. He did not have a house like he told me he had but he had a rental house lined up to move into and the rental house we moved into the landlord only gave me and my daughter only two months to live there. The very first day in town I totaled my car. We moved to Grand Prairie right between Dallas and Fort Worth and unfortunately there was no bus service in Grand Prairie. I did not have a job so I rented a car to look for a Job I was on my last $8 dollars and the rent car was due back the next day. While looking for a job I stopped at a church I Had never visited before that was having a afternoon revival and when it came time for the offering the man said that the Lord told him that there were seven people in the congregation who were going to give $50

                      I said causally to God “That’s nice” since I had never heard anyone say anything like that before.

                      And then I felt God’s presence and I heard God’s voice say, “And you are one of them.”

                      Well needless to say me and God argued I told him I only had $8 and that I did not have $50 to give and that I did not have a job, and besides there was no way I was going to be able to come back any time in the near future so I could give the money. I was full of excuses of why I could not do it so I compromised and said “God I will give $5”. Well by this time the offering plate came by and I dropped the $5 into the plate.

                      Immediately God gripped my heart, and I knew I had done wrong. I repented for limiting His power and told God that if he would give me the rest of the money before I left I would give it. Well the church I was in used to be an old movie theater with fold up seats and everyone was standing for the offering. The offering was over and it was time to sit back down under my seat was a $20 dollar bill. Then an older lady sitting a few rows behind me came up to me and said “Son, I don’t know you, but the Lord told me to give this to you.” and she gave me a check for $20 then four more people gave me $1 each, and I put $1 more with it and went up and gave it to the pastor.

                      That was the first time I had seen the power of God move so quickly. I decided there to start seeking God to hear His voice again because I needed to see him move in my life like he moved in Jesus life, which is what he said he would do. When God has spoken I have had many miraculous healings, and financial blessings. Then the same voice of God which caused many mighty miracles to occur in my life then started teaching me but I did not over nite come to believe what I do now, just like the first time he spoke I argued constantly trying to hold onto what men taught me. But everytime I tried to hold on tight to what I believed I knew to be true God would grip my heart and I knew I had done wrong and I had to repent, and accept what he was teaching me as truth. God started speaking to me about once every year but as I hungered and thirsted to hear his voice more; then he started speaking once every few months, then after some time He started to speak every few weeks, then every few days, Now he is speaking to me every day and sometimes every few hours. But oh how I long to be in his presence and to hear him speak in every waking moment.

                      Hearing God’s voice always brings results, imagining you have heard his voice because you have studied scripture does not. You can sit there all day quoting scripture and saying by His stripes I am healed yet never get a healing for what ails you; but the moment you hear His voice you can be healed. Sometimes he makes no conditions for you to do anything to receive the blessing He wants to give to you, other times he may tell you something for you to do, and if he wants you to do something the moment you do it He will instantly bless you with what he told you.

                      Lanny has said:
                      “Patrick, you err because you refuse Romans 9: 22, 23.
                      The vessels of wrath are not the same as the vessels of mercy.”

                      Dear sir I don’t refuse Romans 9:22,23 at all. The vessels of wrath and the vessels of glory are both IN my Father’s house. The vessels of glory are not the only vessel in His House but the vessels of wrath are there also. The vessels of wrath are not found outside the house of God they are in our father’s house. Romans 9 truly proves that God really is working ALL IN ALL I Cor 12:6. However I do refuse the interpretations that men have placed upon that verse especially eternal torment. Romans 9 does not make null and void the previous promises in Romans chapter 5, 8, and the further promise found in chapter 11 that speak of God plan to save all men. Wrath is part of that plan. But wrath is not in that verse termed eternal now we as Christians were all at one time vessels fitted for wrath, even as others who have not accepted Christ yet are fitted for wrath now.

                      Eph 2:1-8 KJV And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

                      We have previously discussed wrath before so I won’t repeat all that I have said before, you can go back and read it if you want it is somewhere on this thread. but I will remind you that God’s wrath is going to be poured out of His Kings when God comes to be glorified in His saints against all who hold the truth in unrighteousness. Psa 110:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, Romans 1

                      We each have two natures the wheat which God planted first in to his garden which we are and the tare which Satan planted when man slept. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. The tare is the flesh and is who we think we are from birth and it is this life we must lose in order to gain our true life; we cannot live from both lives at the same time. We can only live from one life at any given moment in time. If we seek to save the life of the tare we shall find out in the end that we are going to lose that life. God will take it from us against our will and burn it; there will be much pain and anguish when that happens. But if we willingly lose that life then we shall begin to live from the life of the wheat, the life of Christ that which is born of the spirit; which we truly are. The only Plant that God will allow to grow to maturity and enter into His storehouse is that which he has planted and if we don’t believe into the life of Christ then God’s wrath will abide upon us until he drags us to look at Jesus lifted up at the cross. Jesus said that if I be lifted up I will drag all men unto myself. Moses lifted up a brass serpent in the wilderness and all snake bite rebellious men who looked at that serpent were healed, which was a type and shadow of Jesus being lifted up at the cross. All who look will be made whole and healed of the venom of religious serpents of Satan’s denominational teachings. Jesus own words guarantee that if he is lifted up at the cross then he will drag ALL men unto himself John 12:32.

                      All of us have the same foundation and that is Christ crucified, and Christ is the light that lighteth everyman that cometh into the world. Light is life and Jesus gave everyman ever born into this world the life they have. Love constrains me to tell you Lanny that when Christ died for all, all died. We might all be walking alive in this earth but we all died in Christ when he died, sinner and saint alike; and it does not matter if you don’t believe it or not when Jesus died all died with Him, it is true whether anyone believes it or not. That is the wonderful thing about truth what we believe does not change it, it still remains what it is whether someone believes it or not. God is going to try everyone works by fire. If we have built upon that foundation from out of the life of the tare the wood, hay, stubble, it will burn in that day; if we have built upon the foundation of Christ crucified out of the life of the wheat gold , silver, and precious stones, it will remain after the fire passes through and we shall receive a reward from God. If we have only built upon the foundation only that which comes from the tare, we will suffer great loss yet we shall still be saved as by fire because we all still have the same foundation. If we build out of a mixture then we shall still suffer loss but it will not be as extreme.

                      When the tare that satan planted is burned in everyman by the wrath of God, the wheat that God planted first in everyman will still remain.

                      Now God has always set up certain men like pharaoh who will seemingly oppose his plan so that He may manifest his glory and power fully in the earth. And in His wrath they will die. In the old testament God’s wrath was poured out on many people in many ways and His wrath always ended with the death of the offender the destruction of the system they maintained. For example God poured out His wrath upon Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed those cities in fire, but that is not the end of the story Later in Ezekiel 16 God promises to reestablish Sodom to it’s former estates because of the sins of Jerusalem. Many have died, are dying and are going to die because of His wrath. Systems of men religious, political , and financial have all been destroyed by God’s wrath and are going to CONTINUE TO BE destroyed by His wrath. But in the future God will restore all men he destroyed so he can gather them together into one in Christ. All creation not just the cursed earth we live in groans and travails for the full manifestation unveiling of the sons of God in the glory of their Father and they will bring ALL CREATION not just the earth INTO THE SAME LIBERTY OF THE GLORY THAT THEY POSSESS IN GOD.

                      Every word of God must be established by two or three witnesses the lake of fire which judges men’s works by burning them up is the same fire as found in I Cor 3. There are only two passages that deal with works being judged by fire in scripture. That is the lake of fire in Revelation 20:10-15 and I cor 3:9-15. See the name – nature, character that is not found written in the Lambs book of Life which book of life is actually Christ our life; is the name – nature and character of the tare which Satan planted in God’s garden. That name – nature character will be burned up and will not enter into God’s rest.

                      Lanny has said:
                      Also Jesus nowhere taught anyone existed before being physically conceived in their mother’s womb.

                      Actually He did when he said in John 10:30 Joh 10:34-36 KJV Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, “I said, Ye are gods?” (35) If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (Now remember Jesus Christ is the Word of God that came to them), and the scripture cannot be broken; (36) Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

                      As a man Jesus included himself in that statement “I have said, ye are gods” Along with all the Jews. How do I know this? Because He called himself the Son of God. What significance does that hold? Easy He quoted psa 82:6 which states “I have said, ye are gods, and ALL of you are sons of the most High.” All sons of God are elohim. And Jesus knew full well where he was when all the sons of God were shouting for joy. He was there shouting just like all the rest of the sons of God were. That is why he could say I and my Father are one just a few verses before. And if you can receive it we are one in the Father and the son even as they are one.

                      Jesus did teach Matthew 7 : 13 & 14 having full knowledge “many” would perish eternally.

                      Why won’t you believe what Jesus taught?

                      Again I do believe Jesus I don’t believe the traditions of men that have crept into the church and made the word of God of none effect. Jesus absolutely knew many would perish, but he came to seek and save those who are perishing. He will leave the 99 sheep to find the one that is lost. Religion on the other hand is satisfied to teach that Jesus will do whatever it takes to save the one and let the 99 perish. He never knew anything about eternally perishing that men preach. Jesus had the power to speak to the dead and they would hear His voice, and come forth into resurrection. Jesus said if I be lifted up I will Drag ALL MEN unto myself. Now Jesus was lifted up at the cross just like the brass serpent in the wilderness was lifted up; and all the snake bit men who looked at the serpent lived. All who look at him who was crucified will be saved- made whole and revelation guarantees that all will eventually look at Christ who was crucified. Now you might say your bible says draw instead of drag and try to pawn off the meaning as a light impelling but God won’t go against a man’s will, but the fact is the word helko is used in several passages where Paul was dragged to jail against His will acts 16:19, 21:30; and those to who James spoke to were also dragged against their wills before the courts and rulers of their day. James 2:6. And if you think that God won’t go against your will when it is your time to meet Him then you had better ask Saul what happened to him when he got knocked of His horse on that Damascus road He was traveling upon.

                      Jesus is called the savior of the world for a reason, Because he is the savior of All men especially those that believe.. But why believe a lie and call Him the Savior of the world when in your view He does not save the whole world, only a small percentage? Any God that cannot save is nothing but an idol as Isa 45 declares, God however has sworn by himself that he is going to save all the ends of the earth, and that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in Him they have righteousness and strength. Now when God swears by Himself that should bring an end to all controversy.

                      Heb 6:16-20 YLT for men indeed do swear by the greater, and an end of all controversy to them for confirmation is the oath, (17) in which God, more abundantly willing to shew to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, did interpose by an oath, (18) that through two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, a strong comfort we may have who did flee for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us , (19) which we have, as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and entering into that within the vail, (20) whither a forerunner for us did enter–Jesus, after the order of Melchisedek chief priest having become–to the age.

                      Why do you still have a controversy with Him and why don’t you believe his sworn word?

                      As to your last remark try reading the rest of Matthew 7 about the fruit of the tree a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. They will know you are my disciple by your love one for another. That is not limited to those who agree with you but includes all your enemies who do not agree with you. Statements like what you have made do not show the love of God at all. In fact it is very much like what Abel’s blood said when it was shed upon the ground. I myself know I have come to the place in my walk wherein I have come to the blood of Jesus that speaketh better things then that of Abel. Abel said ‘Get them, avenge me God; Get him God!!! The blood of Jesus says Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

                      I say to you Lanny I forgive you and Father forgive Lanny for he really does not know what he has done. I pray you will be blessed in all you do as you learn to hear and follow His voice.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 26, 2012 at 10:58 pm

                      Patrick makes all of us gods like unto Jesus Christ. Why then are we sinful?

                      In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin {Proverbs 10: 19}

                      Divorce the contexts, Patrick. You do such a great job of it. Satan and his demons are also a great source of revelations. And of a multitude of words, also.

                    • Patrick Strickland November 27, 2012 at 1:57 pm

                      Lanny has said:
                      “Patrick makes all of us gods like unto Jesus Christ. Why then are we sinful?”

                      Lanny you err I did not write the bible. I did not make anyone gods:God did when He said I have said ye are gods. When God speaks it becomes a reality. SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN You can either believe his word or you don’t. But I know I would have been just like you and not have believed it unless I heard him teach it. But men in their carnal minds do not believe God speaking the true meaning of scripture to them , they however will believe what men will teach them and what they think scripture means. Carnal minded men are the just like the Pharisees of old. They search the scripture but they never come to the truth which is Jesus Christ They mistake studying a book for actually having a relationship with the person who wrote it. They are not the same. Religion will not allow anyone to believe that they actually are sons of God in his likeness and in his image. He made man in His likeness and in his image(Gen 1:26, 27), and to understand what likeness and image means check out Gen 5:3

                      Gen 5:3 KJV And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

                      It is obvious that likeness and image means like reproduces like… that is whatever the Father is that is what the son is. God is spirit and so are all sons of God just like their Father. They are spirit.

                      Besides have you not read I john 4:17 that states

                      1Jn 4:17 KJV Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD.

                      We are sons of God now, and we shall be like Him.
                      1Jn 3:1-3 KJV Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

                      But the truth is that Christ the son of God has always been the same. When you begin to see that you are a member in particular of His body and have the same mind of Christ He has then you will begin to see the truth of who you actually are in Him, a Son of God.

                      We are sinful because God desired us to be in His divine plan. He wanted us to knoe what it is like to be SINFUL IN ADAM BUT HE ALSO WANTED US TO KNOW WHAT IT WAS TO BE RIGHTEOUS IN CHRIST. THIS PLAN He set in motion when He set up the garden and placed us there along with the tree of good and evil and the tree of life and he allowed satan to enter into the garden to tempt the woman. Sin was not an accident GOD PLANNED FOR SIN TO ENTER INTO HIS CREATION SO HE COULD DELIEVER ALL OF HIS CREATION THROUGH CHRIST BACK INTO HIMSELF. ALL WAS CREATED IN HIM ALL CAME OUT OF HIM AND ALL WILL GO BACK INTO HIM.

                      Rom 11:36 For OUT OF him, and through him, and INTO him, are ALL: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

                      God is giving TO THE HEAD JESUS CHRIST the preeminence in all things.

                      If we disagree that is fine I am only sharing what I believe God has spoken to me. You don’t have to believe just like I do and as I have said before unless you start hearing God speak to you then there is absolutely no way that you are ever going to believe what I have been given. So don’t fret but just seek to hear His voice Just like Jesus did. And may God bless you in your efforts to hear His voice.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 27, 2012 at 11:39 pm

                      Patrick, How can God want us to know what it is like to be sinful in Adam? Can an absolutely holy person, as God is, have such a desire for creatures He made in His image? Can God desire His creatures disobey Him? Can God desire His creatures ruin the image in which they were created?

                      Don’t you see that you make no sense? You corrupt God.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 28, 2012 at 2:10 pm

                      Patrick, God’s soul hates wickedness.

                      The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup. {Psalm 11: 5 & 6}

                    • Patrick Strickland November 29, 2012 at 12:53 pm

                      Patrick, How can God want us to know what it is like to be sinful in Adam? Can an absolutely holy person, as God is, have such a desire for creatures He made in His image? Can God desire His creatures disobey Him? Can God desire His creatures ruin the image in which they were created?

                      Don’t you see that you make no sense? You corrupt God.

                      Dear Lanny God said “Let us make man in our image and likeness”. And when he made man in His image and likeness man did not know good and evil. He only knew God and what God wanted him to know, but God wanted man to be like him knowing both good and evil and what the effects of knowing it would be like upon him. So God subjected man to vainity not willingly but by reason of him ho has subjected us to hope of salvation (Rom 8:20): So Man fell, and then God said in Gen 3:22 “Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of Life, and eat, and live forever: God then drove him out of the garden.

                      Man through the fall took on an aspect of knowledge that he never had before and was now more in the likeness and image of the Father then before the fall yet he was now bound to sin which is a state that man could not deliver himself out without God bringing him out of it. God is ultimately responsible for the fall of man because He wanted man to know good and evil so man could be like Him. but God will not let man remain in that bondage that sin brought into all creation You must understand that because God caused the fall He is responsible to deliever man from it’s effects. All men shared in the bondage of death that Adam brought into creation and All men are going to be brought into the liberty of of the glory of Jesus christ because of what He did at the cross romans 5 and I Cor 15. Each man n his opwn order. We were all made sinners -wicked in Adam and in christ we shall all be made righteous. God hates wickedness that is why he is gong to deliever us all from it. but right now wckedness is just a tool in His hands

                      God created evil Isa 45:7 God sent lying spirits to Ahab’s prophets when He wanted Ahab dead I Kings 22. God sent evil spirits to trouble Saul when he lost the anointing of God. Everytime Israel did evil in God’s sight God sent them some wicked nation to afflict them and bring them into bondage, He then judged that nation for how they treated His people, and brought His people out. God knows how to use evil to bring correction and chastisement to His children. God’s wrath works righteousness. Man cannot use wickedness or wrath without destroying himself, because attempt to use either does not work the righteousness of God.

                      And when he brings His fristfruits sons to the place of perfection and maturity that God is striving to bring them to: then He will place his sons into the position of being ready to rule and reign just like Jesus is then He is going to manifest them in the fulness of His glory and they are going to bring all creation that is still bound in sin,corruption, and wickedness into the same liberty of the glory that they have. This is a guranteed word of the lord. God laws are all about fixing wrongs by restoring what was stolen or lost and righting what was wrong; any who are wonged how they were wronged will be righted. God’s laws are actually describing aspects of His nature and character. God is into restoring what has been lost righting wrongs. Under the law if a man dug a ditch and his neighbors cow fell into it the man who dug the ditch had to restore the cow if the cow died that means he had to buy his neighbor a new cow. God dug a ditch in the garden and man fell into it God is responsible to fix what he did not because there is a law but because it is his nature to do it. and he will fix it and the great news is that through the d3eath , burial and ressurection of christ Jesus he already has.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert November 30, 2012 at 3:06 pm

                      Patrick, you are still erring on Romans 8:20 not realizing it speaks of the creation as the CONSEQUENCE of the fall of Adam and Eve. They sinned and THEN God cursed the ground. The groaning is due to human sinfulness. You fail to understand God’s statement “very good” of Genesis 1: 31. And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Patrick, God pronounce “very good” even over Adam and Eve BEFORE they sinned. You are saying they were defective in the image they were created and their sinning would make them “very good” but that’s not the way God put it. They didn’t “fall” into the image of God; they fell into the image of Satan. How can you thing the way you do? Like I asked Alice, who has been teaching you?

                      Then there’s “the effects of knowing” evil. They had that knowledge by actually disobeying God, by actual sinning. How, Patrick, is that the image of God? God’s knowledge of the effects of evil is not by Him actually doing evil and experiencing its effects. Remember God is holy and can do no evil. So how can they be like God knowing good and evil? “Now more in the likeness and image of the Father” you wrote, but you then make God an experienced sinner because the thoughts of your heart are only evil continuously {Genesis 6: 5}. You state: “God is ultimately responsible for the fall of man because He wanted man to know good and evil so man could be like Him.” A Sinner God? How blasphemous can you get? If as you say, “God hates wickedness”, why didn’t he deliver himself. Only an evil God can create evil, Patrick. Your god is a contradiction.

                      This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. {1 John 1: 5}

                    • Patrick Strickland December 6, 2012 at 3:46 pm

                      Wow what a fantasy novel you wrote. Have you ever considered writing science fiction for a living, you might be able to make some money doing that?:) But seriously if you think that is what I believe then you really do not know what I meant by what I wrote. Most of what you wrote I never said. I never said anything about falling into His image I said that there is an aspect of knowledge we took on through the fall. The knowledge of good and evil that God possess and this knowledge is the only aspect of his image we take on. It is only an small aspect of the full image of God and it is the only aspect that we learn from the fall, however man’s fall into sin becomes satans opportunity to sow the tare into every man born into the Adamic dream. But we definitely do not fall into his image! We must be birthed from above to be in His image. We are most definitely not in His full image when we have fallen, and if you have actually read every thing that I have posted then you will know that I do consider the fall is where satan sowed the tare into mankind while Adam slept. The tare is what we think we are when we are birthed into this world. I have previously written on this many times before. Only when Christ is birthed in us and we see the fulness of His glory will we begin to come into the fullness of His image. Now God does know good and evil Genesis 3 clearly states that fact, but that does not mean that because he knows good and evil that he is an experienced sinner. God is absolutely not a sinner.

                      God wants to feed us meat, but until we come to the place where we are perfect or of a full age mature in Him, we will not get meat to eat and in order for us to eat meat we must have our senses exercised to discern both good and evil. Where we learn to overcome the evil with only the good. The tree of death or if you want the tree of the knowledge of Good and evil can be defined as where we decide what is good and what is evil for our lives and the tree of life can be defined as where God decides what He wants to add to our life. Evil for us becomes living by the power of the life of the flesh deciding what we want to do. We can become very religious or great terrors in the earth by living from the tree of death. God considers that tree evil. While good is living by the power of the life that comes from the spirit of God who only is good. Once we discern the difference between good and evil and overcome the evil with the good…when we can discern when we are living by the flesh and when we are living by His life in us, and we begin to live our life only by the power of the life God gives us in Christ: then we are ready for the meat of perfection. Heb 5:14 Otherwise we are still only on the milk of the word, and are unskillful in the word of righteousness.

                      When God created everything very good that meant that everything was set and in place for His purposes. Everything was operating according to how it was designed and created. From our perspective we can think that the fall changed what He made very good into that which is evil. But from His perspective the fall was part of His planned creation bringing about making man into the fullness of His likeness and image. He created everything and he created all the ages and he planned for each age to have a specific purpose to help bring about His plan for all humanity to grow up into maturity in Christ so he could have a man created fully in his likeness and image. Each dispensation of time brought a new set of conditions circumstances, characters and a new move to prepare man in his growth. All things work together for good in God’s eyes For those who love God and are called according to his purpose which purpose is to conform all He foreknew into the image of His son. Rom 8:28-30

                      Lanny you stated that “Only an evil God can create evil.” Then if that statement is true then Jehovah God must be by your definition evil; because he clearly claims to have created darkness and Evil; the devil, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Don’t ignore the scripture just because it does not line up to your religious upbringing that men taught you.

                      Isa 45:5-7 I am Jehovah, and there is none else, there is no Elohim beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Jehovah, and there is none else. (7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Jehovah do all these things.

                      But I know absolutely from Jesus testimony and the relationship I have with the Father that He is absolutely the only one that is Good. Mar 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

                      So now we have a biblical contradiction How can a good God create evil and darkness if in him is no darkness at all: and furthermore we know that a good tree cannot produce both good and evil fruit, but can only produce good fruit? If He created evil, and he did, then the only way that it can ultimately be classified as good is if He uses is as a tool to ultimately bring about Good for all, He uses what appears to us to be evil, i.e. his wrath to bring chastisement and judgment upon men who only seek to do evil. God does not use evil like fallen man who do evil just to be doing it. Now if God created evil and man fell because of the evil He created then if He did not take steps to correct the situation then he would be evil. We know that he did take steps to correct it, by sending His son to die for all men, so that first example really does not exist. Now if he then took steps to correct the situation for only a few but reserves the majority of humanity to be tortured in fire forever in the lake of fire then he would still be guilty of being evil because he is maintaining a torture chamber for those he dug a pit and did not cover it in the first place. God created all the props and placed them in the garden together: The devil, God created tempted the woman he formed out of the rib of man, to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil which He also created and placed in the midst of the garden where man could find it. And now He is going to torture fallen man for all eternity for the small amount of evil he committed during their limited lifetime, while all the time maintaining a greater evil then any man ever could do in his short lifetime. If a man tortured someone for years they would be considered evil, psychotic. If God does it , men say it just and right. The time for punishment does not match the crime committed. God’s Judgment are all restorative. God’s judgments ultimately teach man righteousness. Sodom was destroyed by fire yet Ezekiel 16 tells us that God is going to restore Sodom to it’s former estate. Any Judgment of God without ultimately restoring ALL fallen man in mind is ultimately evil. You must some day answer the question how is torturing anyone in the lake of fire forever be considered remotely good if there is no restoration for any being tortured? How does eternal correction through torturing anyone forever serve any purpose if no one is corrected? How can a God who is doing a greater evil than any man could have done in His lifetime be considered good? The only way that God can ever be considered good and remain Good in our eyes and even in His own eyes if all who fell are ultimately restored back into him. Which amazingly enough is what He promised to do in scripture. All who fell in Adam and died will be the same all who are going to be gathered back into Christ at the dispensation of the fulness of time. Anything less then this causes God the creator of evil to become evil.

                      God has never stated that His mind is occupied only upon evil. Your straw man argument from your imagination of what you think I said are just ridiculous. God did say about man

                      Jer 29:11 KJV For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

                      God is thinking thoughts of peace thoughts of our safety – of our completeness in Him thoughts of making us perfect in Him, whole prosperous, thoughts concerning finishing us and to bring us all to an end. Not just any end but an expected end, an end He planned for all men everywhere which is at the dispensation of the fulness of time He is going to gather together in one all into Christ Eph 1:10, 11. God is reconciling all into Christ because of the cross of Christ Col 1:20-22.

                      In His thoughts God is also thinking that He will chastise His sons when we need it. To the one being chastised the one doing the punishing them is committing a great evil. But from the perspective of the one doing the correcting he is doing it for our Good to bring about His desired end.

                      Heb 12:5-11 KJV And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: (6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. (7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? (8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. (9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. (11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

                      God knows nothing about the end of most humanity you proclaim where he foreknew most to perish and to be tortured in the lake of fire for all time. It is not in the scripture at all. That is nothing but the traditions of carnal minded men handed down to us from men that ended up torturing and killing all others who disagreed with their ideas and burning all material written that opposed their views, these traditions the church holds unto have made the word of God that is proceeding from God’s mouth of none effect. The gospel you preach does not qualify as glad tiding of great Joy to ALL men, it is nothing but a gospel of fear that men use to scare the flesh into trying to do right. In your gospel not ALL are gathered INTO Him at the dispensation of the fulness of time, only a few chosen from the beginning, or those lucky enough to chose him during their lifetime. In your gospel not all are reconciled INTO HIM, only a few. You can believe that if you want; but I cannot.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert December 7, 2012 at 2:46 am

                      Patrick, the Adamic dream? You try to separate it from the knowledge of good and evil? WHY were they put from the garden, Patrick? WHAT does the Bible say?

                      And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. {Genesis 3: 22 – 24}

                      There’s no Adamic dream in God’s vocabulary in the text and God didn’t think knowing good and evil was proper for their life forever. I mean, God lives forever, so why not they should live forever with this knowledge since that’s the image of God you think? No, Patrick, you can’t divorce their sin from their knowledge. God’s treatment of them proves your idea wrong, evil imaginations.

                      WHILE Adam slept? That’s when he got the Adamic dream? That was how Adam fell? WHEN, Patrick, does the text say Adam slept? I don’t see him sleeping in the text: show me where that is, please Patrick. Your evil imaginations are amazing.

                      So when he awoke that was his birth into the Adamic dream? That was “the fall” of only Adam into sin, but every man has his own individual fall when he is birthed into the Adamic dream? That is so CONTRARY to the perfect literal Holy Bible:

                      Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned {Romans 5: 12}

                    • Patrick Strickland December 10, 2012 at 4:18 pm

                      Hi Lanny:

                      Dear sir if I was only speaking just my opinion concerning the bible then what I would be saying would not be able to help anyone, My opinion or your opinion won’t help anyone to come into His Son’s image and to become absolutely totally free from all that holds us in bondage to sin, sickness, lack, and death. Only God’s opinion of what He sent His word to do will actually matter in the end, and will actually deliver us fully from all bondages into His glorious image and fulness where He will be all in all. Or as the Amplified bible says “for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself. “ Praise God what a wonderful thing that will be… God will fill everything everywhere with Himself!!! There is absolutely no power behind our opinions of the word. You see the church is doing just what the pharisees of old did they are searching the scripture thinking that by just reading and studying them that they will get eternal life by believing the right thing. The Pharisees of old only presented their opinion of what they thought the word of God said. But eternal life is actually getting to know both the only true God, the Father; and his Son which he sent, Jesus Christ, and actually through relationship finding out what he actually meant by what he had written.

                      Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

                      Lanny you do realize that reading about someone is not how you get to know them. Spending time with them talking to them and listening to them does, getting involved in what they are doing causes us to be in a relation ship. Only by having a relationship with God and his son will we ever have eternal life. The pharisees did not have a relationship with God they only had their opinions of what they thought the word meant; and they rejected and did not receive Jesus as the messiah when he came because of the opinions they formed because of their traditions.

                      Joh 5:39-44 KJV Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. (41) I receive not honour from men. (42) But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. (43) I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. (44) How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

                      See If I was coming just in my name, seeking honour that comes from just man and speaking just my opinion of the scripture you would receive me. But because I am seeking just His honour and actually telling you to seek God to get His true intent, meaning and opinion on what was written you reject me as nothing less then a demon possessed liar – a deceived cult member trying to deceive the masses. What do I gain if I am trying to deceive anyone? If I was trying to deceive anyone the last thing I would tell any one is to seek to hear the voice of God for themselves and to get him to teach you what He meant by what he had written, so that you can enter into the fulness of His glory and image. But that is what I am telling you and everyone else I talk to to do. Seek Him till you do hear the Father’s voice because you have an anointing in you that God gave you and that anointing will teach you and guide you into all truth and will not lie to you. If you don’t hear Him speak to you and show you what he truly meant by what he had written then there is no way you will ever believe what I have written. If you don’t hear him teach you His interpretation of scripture then you can be guaranteed that you are deceived somewhere in what you understand. And that last statement applies just as much to me as it does to you. Now you are free to believe anything you want to; I am just sharing what he showed me, and I would never dream to impose upon you my ideas or my opinion of scriptures. You can reject what I am saying or you can accept it, either way it does not matter to me. I will still love you what ever you do.

                      Now Lanny do you really think that it is just my evil imagination, and that I have no scripture for what I have called the Adamic dream? But the truth is I do have one, and it is most definitely not something out of my imagination. In fact there is not one statement concerning scripture that I have made that I do not have a scripture to back it up.

                      Gen 2:20-21 KJV And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. (21) And the LORD God caused a DEEP SLEEP to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;

                      There is no scripture that says that he actually woke up from His deep sleep. Many assume that he did but the rest of scripture is actually His dream and what happens to us when we wake out of that dream. In fact later in scripture there are many verses that deal with waking up. When we wake up we will wake up in His image Psa 17:15. We wake out of sleep to righteousness I Cor 15:34. We wake to find out that we are still with God Psa 139:18. We wake out of death into light, life Eph 5:14; John 1:4-9.

                      Sleep and death are associated many times in scriptures John 11:9-13; Psa 13:3; I Th 5:10. You do know that you can be walking around like the pharisees did alive yet still in God’s eyes be considered nothing but a grave. Luke 11:44 proves that point when Jesus said to the pharisees Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them. The only way to wake out of our sleep of death and come into light life is to hear Him speak to us. And when we do hear him we shall come out of our graves.

                      Joh 5:25 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
                      Joh 5:28-29 KJV Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

                      The parable of the wheat and the tare found in Matthew 13 covers from creation all the way to bringing fruit to perfection. When God created man IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS he created man as a spirit like him. A spirit that had both male and female aspects together as one. Man in the beginning was not two separate beings, but ONE. This man God created was SPIRIT! This man that God created was the wheat. In Genesis 2 God formed the body for the man he had already created in Genesis 1. Man’s body became God’s husbandry, God’s garden I cor 3:9. God planted the seed of wheat the man he created in the beginning into His body by breathing the breath of life into the body he formed out of the dust of the earth. The body formed in Genesis 2 was not the man that God created in His likeness and image in Genesis 1. The body formed from the dust of the earth was the house for the man that God created in the beginning. In the parable that Jesus told, When man slept the enemy came in a sowed the tare. Which corresponds to God putting Adam to sleep and taking out of him the female aspect of his spirit and presenting it to Adam, then she getting tempted by satan to eat of the tree of good and evil, and eating it. Then the man taking and eating of the tree. The fall of man is the tare being sown into the body the garden of God by the enemy. But according to the parable of the wheat and the tare the wheat was still in the garden growing along with the tare. With the exception of Adam body being formed out of the dust of the earth, all of our bodies were FORMED in the womb, but we were ALL CREATED IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. Our body is not the real us. Our bodies are just a vehicle for the spirit man to move around the material world. We all now think we are the tare when we are birthed into this world. But the fact is in this body God planted the wheat first, and it is growing up in His garden even at the same time the tare we think we are is.

                      The creation story and the fall are allegories of Christ and His bride the church. Like Adam Christ was one made up of many. Adam originally was created as both male and female in one, and so was Christ. And Adam both the first and the last, was not deceived but willingly tasted of the tree – sin for the purpose of atonement. If Adam would have not willingly tasted of the fruit of that tree then Christ would not have been willing to become sin so we may be made the righteousness of God in Christ 2 Cor 5:21. Likewise The woman Eve , and then the church the bride of Christ, who came out of the man was deceived. Since the fall every man or woman who has come into this world, with the exception of Jesus are spiritually considered the woman. And every woman thinks it is nothing but a tare- a sinner- mortal human, separate from each other and separate from God: the woman is totally deceived. But in every one who has entered into this world the wheat that God sowed is still there inside them growing alongside the tare. When the woman wakes up from the adamic dream they will realize that they are actually born from above, born of an incorruptible seed and will know that they are the righteousness of God in Christ and are not separate from Christ and that they actually are the wheat in the likeness and image of the son that God sowed from the very beginning, and they will know this beyond a shadow of a doubt.

                      I could say more concerning how the creation story is also an allegory for the spirit and soul of man but I do not have the time at this moment. So I will bring this post to a close.

                      Lanny I really do enjoy talking to you. Keep up the good questions. May you and your family be truly blessed in the Lord.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • admin December 12, 2012 at 10:55 pm

                      That’s really interesting, about the scriptures never saying Adam woke up! I’ll need to meditate on that a while…

                    • Lanny A. Eichert December 13, 2012 at 12:38 am

                      Patrick, You have Adam sinning in God’s deep sleep into which He put Adam so that Adam sinned BEFORE Eve was even made and presented to Adam, before they even existed as a couple. Add to that your insane idea that Adam never awoke suggesting life as most know it is nothing but a dream. That is all science-fiction. I’ve been for a long time asking you to write REALITY.

                      Alice, how can you even entertain giving ANY thought to Patrick’s ideas? His ideas are most often very incredible.

                      Patrick, life as most people know it, the non-elect who are headed for destruction {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}, is a life of deception, not a living dream. That’s reality, Patrick, not your foolish idea.

                    • admin December 15, 2012 at 6:49 pm

                      Refusing to “entertain giving ANY thought” to ideas that seem different/wrong is FEAR. Considering them is subjecting them to scrutiny. It’s a good habit, because truth stands in the light of scrutiny. If his ideas are not credible, they won’t stand.

                    • Patrick Strickland December 16, 2012 at 5:17 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Glad to hear from you sir.

                      It is nice to know that you still think what I am writing is my ideas but as I have already stated they are not mine at all. My ideas concerning the scripture when I trusted in them, conformed to the charismatic pentecostal view point. I could teach hell and the lake of fire as well as anyone I have heard. My view did not differ at all from what is commonly accepted in the major denominations which happens to be your view, At that time we could easily have agreed upon scripture meaning.

                      In the mid 80’s after I left the Air force and had returned to the Dallas – Fort Worth area, two things happened around the same time to change my view. The first was an insatiable hunger to hear His voice more. I knew at that time from scripture that if we delight in the Lord He will give us the desire of our hearts. God had already dealt with me that it meant that if I would delight myself in him He would give me His desires as mine and then he would fulfill them. So I went on a forty day fast praying and seeking God to give me His desires, so that His desires may be fulfilled in me. At the same time I was fasting two booklets from J Preston Eby came into my hands thorough a man of God I knew very well. The booklets were from His Savior of the World series titled “What do you mean by Jubilee”, “What do you mean by The Restitution of ALL Things.” I read them and as I read them The Lord’s presence filled the room where I was at. Honestly I did not know what to think they contradicted everything I had been taught. But I could not outright reject them because I could feel the presence of the Lord so strongly when I read them. At that time I could feel the presence of the Lord but only very rarely. I treasured every time God showed up because I knew something great was getting ready to happen. I was stuck with a great contradiction I could keep everything I had learned from men or I could seek God about why His presence was so strong on those booklets. I sought God on why His presence was so strong and He showed me that His desire was truly for all men to be saved. I knew it was not an idle wish on his part but something He was actively working on. How do I know this He actually imparted His desire into me and his desire in now my desire. Now I have several scriptural promises that He promised to keep.

                      Psa 37:4 KJV Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
                      Pro 10:24 KJV The fear of the wicked, it shall come upon him: but the desire of the righteous shall be granted.
                      Mar 11:22-24 KJV And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. (23) For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
                      1Jn 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
                      1Ti 2:1-8 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, (TO BE MADE WHOLE), and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
                      2Pe 3:9 KJV The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                      NOT ONLY IS IT CLEAR FROM SCRIPTURE THAT IT IS HIS DESIRE AND WILL TO SAVE ALL MEN BUT THAT HE WILL DO HIS DESIRE.

                      Isa 46:10-13 CLV Telling from the beginning, the hereafter, and from aforetime, what has not yet been done. Saying, `All My counsel shall be confirmed, and all My desire will I do.'” (11) Calling from the sunrise, a bird of prey, from a land far off, the man of My counsel. Indeed, I speak! Indeed, I will bring it about! I formed. Indeed, I will do it.” (12) Hearken to Me, sturdy of heart, far from righteousness.” (13) I bring near My righteousness. And it shall not be far. And My salvation shall not delay. And I bestow, in Zion, salvation for Israel, My beauty.”

                      Now scripture is equally clear that the wicked will be destroyed. Now the problem we have is that we are judging unjustly and accepting the person of the wicked Psa 82:2. Literally the Hebrew reads that we are wearing, lifting, and exalting our self up; our countenance, our form , our face, our presence as the wicked. We are accepting the fact that we are the wicked. And by doing that we have judged ourselves unjustly and have judged all around us by the same standard. Scripture declares that as a man thinks in his heart so is he Pro 23:7. We are all wicked as long as we think we we are. By judging ourselves and others through what we decide to call good and what we call evil as long as we are doing that then we shall not know or truly understand what His will is and we will remain walking in darkness, where all the foundations of the earth will continue to be out of course and we will continue to die like men. We can even still say we are nothing but sinners saved by grace, and still walk in darkness because we are still calling ourselves wicked. Now the funny thing is that the phrase I am a sinner saved by grace cannot be found in scripture. We do however read in Epesians

                      Eph 2:1-9 KJV And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

                      We were sinners in our mind but We have been quickened made alive in Him and we are no longer just mere sinners we are now the righteousness of God in Him. When we quit believing that we are the wicked and actually believe what He said we are, “I have said ye are gods and all of you are sons of the most High”. Then we will begin to live from that life he has actually given to us. We will find that we are now translated out of darkness into His marvelous light, and we shall find that all of our foundations will now be back in course and we shall live in Him. We the righteous will become an everlasting foundation in Him Pro 10:25. And the wicked we thought we were will be fully burned up in the fulness of His presence in us. At the sounding of the first trumpet all green grass will be burned up by hail mixed with fire. And according to scripture all flesh is as grass. Furthermore hail is what God uses to destroy the wall men have made with untempered mortar which happens to be all the lies of man the false prophets teach Eze 13. The wicked only exists in our minds.

                      Lanny you want to talk about reality but you continually refuse to even define what reality is. Reality to you only seems to be what you accept as truth. Reality to me is what God says it is. And if you have never heard Him speak then how can you be sure you actually have what is real what is truth?

                      I can only live by hearing His voice and by doing what he wants me to do. I can only seek for His desire to become a reality and since the desire of the righteous will be granted then I must treat everyone as if they are saved even though in their own minds they may think they are nothing but sinners and wicked.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert December 21, 2012 at 1:09 am

                      Patrick writes, But I could not outright reject them because I could feel the presence of the Lord so strongly. You again favor your FEELINGS above the Word of God, the written Scriptures, by which we all are to judge all things. This is a real problem with many folks who have experienced the charismatic pentecostal view point. They interpret feelings as the testimony of reality.

                      Hard reality is what is literally written in God’s perfect Holy Bible.

                      out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. {Matthew 12: 34 – 37}

                      Jesus is not saying that you’re evil only as long as you think you’re evil. He’s says you’re evil because you have an evil heart that expresses itself in the individual words you think and speak which God will judge as just cause to condemn you to eternal torment. That’s what “as a man thinks in his heart, so is he” means.

                      Salvation’s righteousness is not achieved by correcting human thinking. Salvation’s righteousness is received as a GIFT. Otherwise Christ died in vain and grace doesn’t exist.

                    • Patrick Strickland December 29, 2012 at 3:02 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Thanks for finally defining reality for me as, “Hard reality is what is literally written in God’s perfect Holy Bible.” I really appreciate it… I don’t FULLY agree with it, but I do really appreciate you finally defining what you think reality is.

                      Funny thing is the pharisees thought the same thing yet they missed Jesus Christ as their Messiah when He came, In fact they even crucified Him because he challenged their opinion of what they thought was reality written in the perfect word they studied everyday. As I have said before Our opinion of what we think the word of God says in scripture is not reality at all. In fact our opinions of what is written can deceive us into thinking we actually know what the bible is talking about. This is the point where we differ. God sent His word to accomplish what He wanted it to do and it is that intention He is watching over to do and the fact remains that His word will not return to Him void but it shall accomplish what He sent it to do, NOT WHAT WE THINK IT WAS SENT TO DO.

                      Isa 55:10-11 KJV For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER IN THE THNG WHERETO I SENT IT.

                      Again We each have to ask God to teach us what he intended when he had scripture written. Otherwise we are going to be deceived by what we read. OUR CARNAL NATURAL MINDS CANNOT UNDERSTAND THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST TEACHING US. This is found written in your hard reality. But it is a fact you seem to not accept as reality.

                      1Co 2:13-14 KJV Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, BUT WHICH THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; (How does the Holy Ghost teach us? By comparing the literal with the literal or by comparing spiritual with spiritual?) comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

                      Now I am not trying to be sarcastic in any way at all, but the bible written upon a page never describes itself as perfect. However, God’s way is perfect.

                      Psa 18:30 KJV As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

                      And since Jesus is the Way then that makes Jesus- the Word of God perfect. And because of His one time sacrifice those whom he sanctifies are also made perfect in Him Heb 10:14. The literal bible only points us to Jesus Christ

                      Now I am getting the impression from your last two paragraphs that you somehow think that I am stating that if we change the way we think we will be saved. I never said anything remotely like that. Our salvation is not based upon any works we do. I agree that our salvation is a gift of grace and through faith we obtain it. We do not change our way of thinking and then we are saved. No We are saved, we accept the gift that God gives us, and then we change the way we think, because we have been given His mind and His thoughts become our thoughts. We cannot earn salvation. Scripture declares that our willing mind can only have a performance of His word only out of what we have received from Him. 2Co 8:10-12 KJV And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. (11) Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. (12) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

                      Lanny Do you know what a straw man argument is? It is a logical fallacy where you take a position and present it like the other person said it and then tear it apart. What makes it a fallacy is the fact that the other person never said what you claim they said. It is basically a misrepresentation of what the other persons beliefs are. I bring this up because it seems that you constantly are presenting ideas that I never stated, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are accidentally doing this, but please try to refrain from continuing this when you post back to me. As a christian we must do all things as unto the Lord we are not allowed to willing create a lie.

                      Now as to the first part Have you never felt the presence of the Lord? Have you never heard Him speak? We must come to the place where we Know that He is in us and not just know by faith that comes only from reading scripture and accepting it as true, but never experiencing His actual presence in us. But it must come from a faith that comes from hearing His speak that He is in us and knowing His presence in us so that we actually have a constant fellowship with Him and the Father who are in us. Otherwise we can be considered reprobate or worse just fools. Remember the fool has said in his heart there is no God. This passage does not just go for atheists saying that there is no God, but goes for Christians who are not consciencely aware that God is in their hearts. Most Christians can go to church on Sunday and then after they leave church they can lie, steal, lust after women, and commit a great many more sins because they are not aware that God is in them. With a conscience awareness of God in us we will not want to go out and disappoint God in any way but we will only want to please Him in all that we do. The more we are aware of Him in us the less we will walk any way we want to. I am not speaking from theory, but from actual experience dear sir. This is an experience that God wants all of us who call ourselves christian to have. Sadly most are not taught this because of their denominations control exercised over their mind. They will teach you that God is in you but they do not want you to come to the place where you actually are experiencing Him in you. Because when you do you will no longer rely upon their interpretation of scripture but you will begin to seek His will and how He sent His word out and how He will actually fulfill His word.

                      Until we speak again
                      Grace and peace in Christ Jesus our Lord

                      Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 7, 2013 at 12:04 am

                      Patrick, here is where you err, your two statements: the bible written upon a page never describes itself as perfect. However, God’s way is perfect.

                      Without the perfect Holy Bible you have no authority to claim God’s way is perfect. Such a claim is purely assumption when you have no Holy Bible. To that you might respond the affirming testimony of the Spirit of Christ in the believer makes it sure, except you have no way to confirm that spirit is actually Christ’s and not Satan’s.

                      I repeat, Michael, your whole position rests on what spirit you believe apart from the Holy Bible and especially apart from any denomination.

                      The Holy Spirit’s interpretation of the paper and ink words of the Holy Bible to His saints are most often plain literal, dear Patrick. It starts: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. It ends with the eternally populated Lake of Fire without remedy: no salvation after physical death.

                    • Patrick Strickland January 21, 2013 at 2:33 pm

                      Lanny; I find it interesting that you assume that because I inform you that the literal Bible does not say it is perfect, that some how in your mind it equates to not having a bible I can trust at all. As interesting a concept as that may be to you, it in no way mirrors the reality of what I actually believe concerning scriptures. I absolutely do believe that ALL SCRIPTURES are divinely inspired by God: God breathed if you will believe what it says literally.

                      2Ti 3:16-17 VGNT Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness, (17) that the man of God may be complete (perfect), thoroughly equipped for every good work.

                      Now that does not mean that the translations from the original languages are error free and are divinely inspired. Point of fact no translation is perfectly error free because in many translations the translator’s bias and what they thought it meant was presented as truth. If a word had two possible meanings the translator usually picked according to their understanding of theology or what their tradition agreed with. Some errors are minor and do not really affect the reading at all; but others are major and change the actual meaning of the passage. When translating from the original language some words were ignored and not translated at all. Sometimes they did not choose to translate from the original language at all but instead choose to translate from the Latin Vulgate which in itself is nothing but a translation from the original languages. For example the following portion of a passage when translated into the English King James version of the bible contains several major errors… the passage which contains two definite articles that should be translated as “the”, the first one is completely ignored and not translated at all; and the second, which is the genitive case definite article is completely mistranslated. Instead of translating it as “of the” they translated it as “and”. The definite article should never be translated as “and” and a genitive should have “of” to show possession. This is the first major error of translation they made.

                      εις τους αιώνας των αιώνων Literally word for word this passage reads “Into the ages of the ages”, but the KJV translators decided to translate it, badly I might add, as “for ever and ever”. Logically You cannot add another eternity to eternity. Eternity has no beginning nor end. It only takes one to cover all of time. Yet ages do have beginnings and endings and can be added together. They ignored the fact that both aions in the passage which should have been translated as “ages” were plural so why did they not even try to translate it remotely correctly “for evers of the evers”? I’ll tell you why they knew it would not make any sense the way they were translating it. This is the second major translation error.

                      In the scripture the phrase “age of the age” shows up in three forms all of which are completely ignored by the KJV translators who translate all as “ever and ever”.

                      First. singular with singular definite article and singular – age of the age
                      Second. singular with plural definite article and plural – age of the ages
                      Third. plural with plural definite article and plural – ages of the ages

                      Now it is not hard to understand what the age of the ages is; it is similar to the following phrases found in scriptures King of Kings, Lord of Lords, or even holy of holies: King of Kings means that Jesus is the greatest King of all kings. Lord of Lords means that Jesus is the greatest Lord of all lords. The holy of holies means that it is the holiest of all holy places. What is the age of the ages It is nothing less then the greatest age of all ages, when in the dispensation of the fulness of time ALL shall be gathered and reconciled back into Jesus Christ Eph 1:10; Col 1:20.

                      Guess where this exact phrase εις τους αιώνας των αιώνων came from? Try Revelation 21:10 So let us check it out in a true literal translation of the bible.

                      Rev 20:10 YLT and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night–to the ages of the ages.

                      Literally the scriptures in the original God inspired Greek language declares the exact opposite of what you interpret it to mean. It literally states that they will burn with a purifying fire which is what brimstome was used for: “to”, “into”, or if you prefer “unto the ages of the ages” which is the greatest age of all ages, when all are reconciled and gathered back into Christ, when all creation(not just the cursed earth which makes up a part of creation but ALL creation) is delivered out of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. The lake of fire does not burn for ever and ever as the KJV falsely translates it as. The lake of fire will burn only to the ages of the ages when all can be reconciled back into Christ because they have had all the garbage they refused to let go of burned out of them. Do you see how falsely translating from the Greek inspired God breathed word can completely change the actual meaning of what God actually intended?

                      Furthermore, dear sir just because Revelation is the last book in scripture does not mean that it describe the end literally: there are many passages in scripture that describe events that happen farther in the future then the last book of the bible the book of Revelation describes. Romans chapter 5; and 8; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; I cor 15: 22-28 Isa 45all declare this fact. If you read the book of Revelation just literally, we find by the end of the book many still in the lake of fire and not all gathered into Christ. We find many men and women who are still outside the city who are not reconciled into Christ. We find many men still bearing the image of the first Adam outside the city who have not yet begun to bear the image of Jesus Christ. We find Jesus Christ ruling but not all enemies outside the city yet under His complete rule, but in first Corinthians we find that ALL enemies are finally put under His feet. In Revelation we find many in the lake of fire never having confessed in him they have righteousness and strength: In Isaiah we find that all are confessing that in Him they have righteousness and strength.

                      However Revelation does describe the end spiritually

                      Rev 22:13 YLT I am the Alpha and the Omega–the Beginning and End–the First and the Last.

                      Jesus clearly said that His word was spirit and life, He never said His word was literal. Paul said that we must compare spiritual with spiritual He never said we should compare literal with literal in order to come to the truth. When scripture describes that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth it was not talking literally about “when”; but spiritually “in whom” everything was created in. Jesus Christ the beginning of the creation of God is where heaven and earth were created. Jesus Christ is the beginning and He is also the END. At the dispensation of the fulness of time ALL shall be gathered back into the end Jesus Christ. Jesus is the set out definite point or goal that God has aimed at; properly He is the point aimed at, that is, Jesus is the conclusion of an act or state (termination [literally, figuratively or indefinitely] that all of creation will share in Him;He is the result [immediate, ultimate or prophetic], purpose of God) Jesus is literally the center of everything He is the beginning. He is the end. And He is everything in between. God’s stated purpose is for all men to bear the image of his treasured son, for all to be gathered into Him. As we have all borne the the image of fallen Adam so shall we all bear the image of Jesus Christ in His glory. God wants to present us all perfect mature in His son. We are all just cells in His body and all of us are needed to express the fulness of God in this earth. God will ultimately be ALL IN ALL. Not just All in some.

                      Reading the bible just literally as you insist we should do leaves not ALL gathered into Christ as scripture clearly declares will happen, but only a few lucky enough to choose Him or who were predestined from the foundation to be saved. Most of creation, specifically all men and women who end up in the lake of fire will remain a slave to sin tortured for all eternity by God never being reconciled back into Him; Unlike what scripture declares that all will be reconciled into Him. Reading literally and accepting the opinion and traditions of men of what they think scriptures mean and teach as the truth will cause you to change the scriptures true intent and meaning from serving a living God who is the saviour of all men especially of those who believe; to a torturer of most men and a saviour of a very few men.

                      Grace and Peace

                      Patrick

                    • Patrick Strickland January 21, 2013 at 2:38 pm

                      Hi Lanny I just thought of something I would like to share with you. If we are to believe Paul he made a distinct parallel between the letter on the page with ink and the Law specifically the ten commandments written upon stone, He considered them spiritually the same: the letter that kills. the ministry of death and condemnation. 2 cor 3:1-9. So if the letter is actually the Law as Paul says, then if you can accept that… then I owe you an apology because scripture does declare that the Law is perfect. So I apologize to you.

                      Psa 19:7 KJV The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

                      However that which is perfect written upon a page cannot make you or anything else for that fact perfect. It can only condemn you and kill you.

                      Heb 7:19 KJV For the law made nothing perfect, but

                      and I love that last but…but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Wow what a statement to make. The bringing in of a better hope did make us perfect so we can now draw near to God in fellowship. When we talk about being perfect you need to understand that We are not perfect in the flesh nor will we ever be perfect in the flesh. However in Christ in the spirit we are made perfect.

                      I want to share an allegory that Paul declared to the church at Galatia concerning the law.

                      Gal 4:21-31 KJV Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? (22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. (23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. (24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. (26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. (27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. (28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. (29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. (31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

                      There are several facts I want to bring out concerning the law, those who are under the law are considered to be

                      1. Son of the bondmaid, Ishmael son of Hagar
                      2. Hagar was never married to Abraham so there was no writing of divorcement ever given to her Isa 50:1
                      3. Prophetically Ismael’s hand is against every one and everyone hand is against Him.
                      4. Born after the flesh
                      5. Covenant from Mount Sinai which gendereth to bondage
                      6. Hagar is mount Sinai which corresponds to
                      7. Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children
                      8. the desolate having more children than she which has a husband
                      9. He that is born after the flesh persecutes he that is born after the spirit.
                      10. Not the child of promise, not the heir with the son of promise
                      11. Cast out the bondwoman and her son

                      Mount Sinai is a mountain you could touch, see, and hear God’s voice audibly thundering at. It is the very real material literal understanding of God’s word and it corresponds to only perceiving just a very literal understanding of prophetic fulfillment of the scriptures in Jerusalem which now is in the Middle east. Most eschatology is built around Jerusalem which you can go and visit in war torn Israel today. A city you can walk thru right now if you could afford to travel there. Mount Sinai is a literal mountain, Jerusalem is a literal city that we can physically visit. Allegorically they are the equivalent of living by the law. Remember the law we are talking about is perfect but it can perfect nothing, it will take a better hope Christ Jesus to do that. If I was to ask someone who was living under the law if they are perfect? They will always answer “No I am not perfect” because all they look at is their old flesh man and his utter lack of ability to be perfect to keep the laws of God when asked that question. They are forever in bondage to sin, sickness, and lack because they judge only by what they can see and touch and hear with their natural senses. For those of us who desire to be under the Law our understanding of scripture is very much limited and determined by our understanding of the material world around us. Sadly many Christians fall under this category because they are living their lives by trying to mix the law with grace. Unfortunately for them the two do not mix. The flesh and the spirit do not work together. We can only live by one at any given time. We can either live by the spirit – grace or we can live by the flesh- law. But if we are to live by the spirit then we must cast out Hagar and her son from our lives. Otherwise you will live in a constant struggle between the two. You will live in the middle of a battle zone with no rest or peace in sight. The spirit will pull one way and the flesh will pull another. The flesh will always war with those children who are truly after the spirit.

                      Those who live by the spirit of the new covenant are allegorically considered in that passage as:

                      1. The son of the married freewoman, Issac the son of Sarah
                      2. Born of promise
                      3. Born of the spirit.
                      4. New Covenant from mount zion and is free Hebrew 12:22
                      5. Answereth to Jerusalem which is above, which is free, and the mother of us all.
                      6. We who are living by the new covenant are children of the promise as Issac was.
                      7. The heir of the promise

                      Spiritually we have come to mount Zion and are now residing there. This spiritual Zion is not the same as the Zion that can be found in Jerusalem which now is. There is a natural Zion which is only a type and shadow of the spiritual reality found in the spiritual Zion we have now come to where God resides at. Just like there is a natural Jerusalem which is allegorically the law so also is there a spiritual Jerusalem which is the bride of Christ. This spiritual mount Zion is the same as the Sion found in Hebrews 12 where we come to the heavenly city to the place where the spirits of just men including our own spirits are made perfect in Christ and where we can hear the voice of Jesus speaking from heaven, which voice will shake both heaven and earth and will shake out of us all that is not like him so that we may receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken whereby through the grace of God we are given we may now serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

                      Heb 12:22-29 KJV But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, (23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (25) See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: (26) Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. (27) And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. (28) Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: (29) For our God is a consuming fire.

                      If we hear Jesus Christ speak from spiritual Zion where He is now, we cannot refuse him that speaks to us lest we suffer a greater judgment from the throne of grace.

                      The letter is the law and can only minister death to us and all those who hear us. But when we hear Jesus speak to us at mount Zion teaching us what he meant by what he had written then we shall now begin to have the ability to walk acceptably in him in life of the spirit, and all that is not of him will be shaken out of us especially all the stinking thing that we have learned under the law. If you ask someone who has come to mount Zion if they are perfect they will always answer… “Yes I am perfect but only in Him, because Jesus is perfect and as He is so am I in this world. However this is very important we must not allow ourselves to ever to become complacent at all because we may think we are perfect in Him. We must each individually apprehend what we have been apprehended for. We must continually press in so that the perfection we have been given in Christ Jesus will actually become a living reality in our daily walk with Him.

                      To me Perfection is like receiving an inheritance a mansion if you will, with an infinite number of rooms in it. The whole mansion Has been given to you and belongs to you and contains everything that God wants you to have in him. In each room is a portion of God’s glory only by entering each room and beholding the glory in it will we be changed into the same image of glory that is there. Now the first thousand rooms you are free to enter and enjoy the glory and presence of God without any restrictions because there is no lock upon them at all. But all the rest of the rooms have a lock which is actually a set of instruction for you to do. Possibly the instruction might say you must visit room 1, 7, 999 or it might say lay hands upon this particular person then the room will open to you. Now when you lay hands upon that particular person or you visit those specific rooms that the lock tells you to do; by you visiting each of those rooms and having the glory in each of those rooms apprehended and now active in your life this obedience to what the lock tells you to do becomes the key to enter the room and apprehend the glory that is in that room. Now you will have all eternity to explore and apprehend the fulness of the glory of perfection that is found in the whole mansion which is already given to you. We are to walk out of the perfection we have attained to but that does not mean that we have apprehended all of the perfection that is available to us in our lives. We have been perfected by his one time sacrifice at calvary Heb 10:14, we are being perfected and we shall become perfect. Perfection is not only in one sense an accomplished given reality for us to experience in our daily walk with Jesus Christ and the Father, but it is also a continuous process, we may have been given the entire mansion as our inheritance, but if we do not explore the whole mansion and enter each room, then the glory in each room that God wants for us to walk out of will not be apprehended in our lives.

                      The literal understanding of the scripture is a valid method of interpretation for our understanding of scripture but it is only the lowest level of interpretation of scripture available to us. Your carnal natural mind can understand the literal interpretation of scripture and you do not need the spirit of God to teach you what he meant by what He had written. But the natural mind cannot understand the deeper things of the spirit of God because they are foolishness to him. The literal understanding will never perfect you. The deeper things of the spirit are impossible for our natural minds to understand without the anointing of the Holy Ghost given to us by the Father teaching us what He actually meant. Perfection is only available to those who have a spiritual understanding of what is written by the spirit of God teaching us the truth.

                      Paul declares this fact clearly in verse 14 of the following section of scripture. 1Co 2:9-16 KJV But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

                      We have been given the mind of Christ so that we can think like he does, Jesus only spoke what He heard His Father say and he only did what he saw His Father doing. The same mind he has is the same mind we have been given if you can just believe it. We can as Christians hear the Father speak and we are now able to say just what He is saying we can now see what the Father is doing and we can now do what he is doing. But we actually are not doing the saying or doing but it is actually the Father in us saying and doing just what He wants to through us. This is all possible to every believer if they will only believe it. But if we do not believe it we shall not enter into the reality of it till we repent and do believe what the anointing actually teaches us.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 22, 2013 at 3:29 am

                      Patrick, you sure do spend much too many words calling Jesus’ words a lie:
                      “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”
                      {Matthew 7: 21}

                    • Patrick Strickland January 31, 2013 at 3:32 pm

                      Yes i spent a lot of time writing to you, but never once did I call Jesus a liar. I understand that in your view of what you think scriptures mean I have. But in the end your opinion will not matter neither will my opinion matter; only THE LORD”S VIEW POINT WILL MATTER.

                      I believe ALL scriptures are going to be fully fulfilled. Including all scriptures that declare that all men are going to be saved. I believe that all scripture concerning the judgments of God will be fully fulfilled before All men are gathered into Christ Jesus and reconciled back into Him. I believe that He is going to tell many men to depart and that they will not be able to enter into the kingdom because they are not KNOWING HIM AND DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. But scripture also promises that all will know Him, and that all will be taught by Him. And all pharisees get to enter into the kingdom but only after all of the harlots and publicans enter fist. In my understanding ALL the Words He sent out will not return to Him void but shall accomplish what HE SENT THEM TO DO!!!

                      However let us compare your version of what you believe All scriptures concerning judgment are fulfilled. None of the scriptures that declare he is going to save and reconcile all men into Christ are fulfilled. That is hundreds of scriptures that will never be fulfilled in your view of scripture.

                      Doing His will in the area of prayer for all men to be saved in faith nothing wavering because of doubt is not possible for you, because of what you believe to be true. But for me not only is it possible to pray His will without wavering in complete faith but I am scripturally guaranteed an answer. And I fully expect to get what I prayed for the salvation of all men and them coming into the knowledge of truth because of the promises of God contained in scripture.

                      If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
                      (Jas 1:5-8 KJV)

                      We can hear scripture and become deceived in our own minds. But when we actually become doers of His word then we cannot remain in deception.

                      But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
                      (Jas 1:22-25 KJV)

                      To sum up:
                      Lanny
                      Judgment scriptures: Fulilled
                      Salvation of ALL scriptures: Not fulfilled
                      Prayer of faith for all men to be saved: Not possible
                      All scripture fulfilled: NO

                      Patrick
                      Judgment scriptures: Fulfilled
                      Salvation of ALL: Fulfilled
                      Prayer of faith for all men to be saved: Possible
                      All scripture fulfilled: Yes

                      When we both see each other in heaven, and you will see me there, when you approach me to talk to me about our interactions upon this earth; don’t ever worry about asking for my forgiveness for what you have written, because I have already forgiven you and I love you in the Lord

                      Be honest with yourself Lanny there is something terribly wrong with what you have been taught to be true.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • admin January 31, 2013 at 5:51 pm

                      This is a very clear and compelling response, in my opinion. I also appreciate how you address subject matter without personally attacking.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 1, 2013 at 12:00 am

                      Patrick, you fail to realize there is not a single statement in the entire Holy Bible that states God saves everybody. All your texts that you say make that claim are bent from their plain truth by other texts you use to interpret them your false way. You do the same thing Alice does by adding words and ideas. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven {at this time}; but {when he finally decides to do} the will of my Father which is in heaven {then he will enter it}. By adding such words and ideas you invert what Jesus said, thus making His exact words a lie and making Jesus a Liar. Jesus said, “Not every one that saith unto me … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

                      There is no preaching of a grace salvation opportunity after physical death anywhere in the Holy Bible. You are unable show me a single example because there is none. You fabricate a fantasy, a Satanic lie ***.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 1, 2013 at 12:34 am

                      Alice, there’s nothing compelling about Patrick’s response other than his misuse of Scripture. You two simply refuse to believe Jesus words:

                      “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”

                      which are backed up with His concluding words:

                      “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

                      You think Jesus meant, “Get away from me until you learn right.” He didn’t say that, Alice. “Depart” offers no opportunity to learn right in deadness. Besides, the Holy Spirit of Christ is the Teacher of right. Since He sends them away from Himself, they are also away from His Holy Spirit, so they are unable to learn right. They cannot be saved to enter His kingdom. As Jesus perfectly said:

                      “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”

                    • Patrick Strickland February 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm

                      Lanny has said:

                      “Patrick, you fail to realize there is not a single statement in the entire Holy Bible that states God saves everybody.”

                      As I read your statement I just shook my head at how blind the god of this age can make a man. There is absolutely no truth to that statement at all as the following verses clearly attest to. IF WHAT YOU SAID IS TRUE THEN I SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO FIND ANY SCRIPTURES AT ALL; UNFORTUNATELY FOR YOU HERE IS JUST A SAMPLE OF THE MANY SCRIPTURES FOUND IN THE HOLY BIBLE.

                      1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. (11) These things command and teach.

                      What is a faithful saying and worthy of ALL acceptance? “We trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE.” How many men is he the saviour of? ALL MEN especially of those that believe!!! That scripture did not say he is the saviour of only those that believe, but that GOD IS (not might be, but IS . IS is in the present indicative in the Greek where The present tense represents a simple statement of fact
                      or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an
                      action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. GOD IS ) the saviour of ALL MEN, most of all (which is what the Greek literally says) those that believe. These things command and teach are you commanding and teaching anyone that we trust in a living God, WHO IS the saviour of ALL MEN, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE? NO You are not following God’s command at all; you teach hell for most men as their end, and a God who is only the saviour of those who EITHER LUCKY ENOUGH TO believe OR WHO WERE PREDESTINED TO BELIEVE or who were only the elect.

                      Well for a statement that is not supposed to be in the bible at all I can say that one verse just disproved your premise completely. That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      1Ti 2:3-6 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME.

                      God WILL HAVE how many men TO BE saved? ALL MEN!!! How many men was Jesus a ransom for? ALL MEN!!! Will have is not an idle wish, but a determined end that God is actively striving to bring about.

                      You cannot get any clearer than those two statement in I Timothy God IS the saviour of all men and God will have all men saved. Only in religion are clear statements of intent changed by adding to the scripture what is not there, and changing it to read that God will “not” have all men saved and God is “not” the saviour of all men. Only men bound in religious traditions will deny the truth of scripture by trying to change the clear words found in the bible.

                      In The following verse God has sworn by his own name to accomplish the salvation of all men. Now in scripture there is no greater assurance that man can have then what God has promised and sworn by His name; that item will absolutely come to pass. In fact when God swears by His name that should put an end to all controversy and strife concerning what he swore to do.

                      Heb 6:16-20 KJV For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. (17) Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: (18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: (19) Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; (20) Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

                      Every tongue will swear Now the word swear in the hebrew means to seven, to swear as if by repeating a declaration seven times to make an oath. That is covenant swearing when a man repeats a declaration seven times. This is every knee bowing and everyman swearing an oath and making a covenant with God that IN HIM they have righteousness and strength.

                      Isa 45:19-25 KJV I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR. (24) Surely, shall one say, IN THE LORD HAVE I RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

                      Now how many knees bow and how many tongues covenant swear that in Him they have righteousness and strength? Why every knee and every tongue will bow and confess that IN HIM they have righteousness and strength!!! How many are commanded to look and be saved? ALL the ends of the earth!!! Will Gods word that has proceeded out of his mouth in righteousness return to him without accomplishing what he sent it to do? Absolutely not!!!

                      That last set of six verses goes very well with the next 4 verses.

                      Eph 1:7-11 KJV In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (9) Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That IN THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN, AND WHICH ARE ON EARTH; EVEN IN HIM: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

                      At the dispensation of the fulness of time how many are going to be gathered in Christ? ALL!!! God is working how many things after the counsel of His will? ALL!!!

                      That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      Php 2:10-11 KJV That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, INTO the glory of God the Father.

                      How many are going to be gathered into the glory of the Father at the confession that Jesus Christ is Lord? Every knee that bows and every tongue that covenant swears that IN HIM they have righteousness and strength, every one who covenant swears that Jesus christ is Lord are going to be gathered into the glory of the Father. But as the next verse says no man can make that confession without having the Holy spirit of God in them saying it and giving them understanding of what they are actually saying. So no tortured confession where the man remains for all eternity in torment will qualify, when the very covenant confession will bring all men OUT OF HELL AND INTO the very glory of the Father Himself.

                      1Co 12:3 KJV Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

                      How many has God sworn by His name are going to say that Jesus is Lord by the holy ghost? All the ends of the earth which includes every single knee and EVERY tongue that has ever been there!!!

                      Col 1:19-20 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, through him TO RECONCILE ALL INTO HIMSELF: by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

                      How many are going to be reconciled into Christ? ALL in heaven and in the earth!!!

                      That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      Act 3:19-21 KJV Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (20) And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: (21) Whom the heaven must receive UNTIL THE TIMES OF RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

                      Restitution comes from the Greek word apokatastasis and means reconstitution: – restitution. Reconstitution can best be described with orange juice, When you take out the water all you have left is pulpy syrup that they sell at the super markets , reconstitution is where what is lacking is added back to make it whole again. According to Psa 8:5 Literally we are made to lack a little from elohim Psa 8:4-5 YLT What is man that Thou rememberest him? The son of man that Thou inspectest him? (5) And causest him to lack a little of Godhead(elohim in the Hebrew), And with honour and majesty compassest him. The reconstitution of all things is where what we lack of Elohim is added back into us making us whole. Now if you do not know the word saved comes from sozo and one of its many meanings is to be whole. To be saved is to be whole in Him. Now with all that said, How many are going to be reconstituted? ALL THINGS!! How many things WILL BE RESTORED IN THE RESTITUTION before Jesus is sent from the throne he now sit upon? WHY ALL things!!!

                      Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. (19) For the earnest expectation of the CREATION waiteth for the REVELATION of the sons of God. (20) For the CREATION was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the CREATION itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. (22) For we know that ALL THE CREATION groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the PLACING AS A SON, to wit, the redemption of our body.

                      HOW MUCH OF CREATION IS GROANING AND TRAVAILING FOR THE REVELATION OF THE SONS GOD? ALL of creation!!! How much of creation is going to be delivered out of bondage of corruption into the same liberty of the glory of the Manifested revealed sons of God? ALL of The CREATION!! Are not all men a part of All creation bound in corruption that is groaning and travailing? Absolutely ALL men are a part of ALL creation!!

                      That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      Joh 4:42 KJV And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

                      How is Christ the saviour of the world if he does not save the whole world? How can someone who is the truth allow themselves to be called the saviour of the world if most he is torturing on purpose in hell for all eternity? Does that not make Jesus being the saviour of the world nothing but a lie of epic proportions?

                      That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      1Jn 4:13-14 KJV Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit. (14) And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

                      The Father sent the son to be the saviour of the world, does Jesus fail at what he has sent to do to be the saviour of the world if the whole world is not saved? He absolutely does fail if the whole world is not saved. But the Jesus who is my Lord is not a failure. He accomplished all he was sent to do.

                      That verse was in my bible, was it not in yours? Did someone tear it out, or are you just ignoring it being there?

                      Joh 12:32-33 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will drag all men unto me. (33) This he said, signifying what death he should die.

                      How many men will be dragged to Jesus when he is lifted up at the cross? ALL MEN!!!

                      Joh 3:14-15 KJV And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: (15) That whosoever believeth into him should not perish, but have eternal life.

                      In the old testament when Israel grumbled and complained God sent among them poisonous snakes to bite them Moses was instructed to build a brass snake and put it upon a pole and all who looked at that snake were healed. Likewise Jesus was lifted up at the cross so If ALL men are being dragged to Him then all men shall see the salvation of their god and since Isa 45 commands all the ends of the earth to look then all men will be healed and saved which is another definition of the word sozo which is translated as saved. So how many men are going to be saved and healed by looking at the serpent lifted up on the cross? ALL MEN Who are dragged to Him?

                      Psa 98:3 KJV He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH HAVE SEEN THE SALVATION OF OUR GOD.

                      How many have seen the salvation of their God? ALL the ends of the earth!!!

                      2Co 5:14-15 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

                      How many died for ALL? One Christ Jesus! When Jesus died how many died with Him? ALL Died!!

                      Rom 5:10-21 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved IN his life. (11) And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed INTO all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one MANY BE DEAD, MUCH MORE the grace of God, and the gift IN grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, HATH ABOUNDED INTO MANY. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences INTO justification. (17) For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; MUCH MORE they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one JUDGEMENT CAME UPON ALL MEN TO CONDEMNATION;EVEN SO by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT CAME UPON ALL MEN UNTO JUSTIFICATION OF LIFE. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience MANY WERE MADE SINNERS, so by the obedience of one shall MANY BE MADE RIGHTEOUS. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did MUCH MORE abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned Into death, even so might grace reign through righteousness Into eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

                      How is the gift of grace reigning “much more” if more men are subject to sin by what Adam did then are affected by what Jesus christ did for them? The same ‘all’ and ‘many’ that were affected by Adam’s sin are the same ‘all’ and ‘many’ that are going to receive the gift of grace through what Christ did at the cross for all men.

                      1Co 15:20-26 KJV But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as IN Adam ALL DIE, even so IN Christ SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

                      How many die in Adam? ALL!!! How many shall be made alive in Christ? ALL!!! How many enemies shall be placed under His feet? All enemies including all men who are enemies in their minds to Christ.

                      1Co 15:42-49 KJV So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

                      HOW MANY HAVE BORN THE IMAGE OF THE EARTHY? ALL MEN! And as we have borne the image of the earthy WE SHALL ALSO BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.

                      I have just scratched the surface Scripture is full of verses that declare that God is going to save all men. You can ignore them, you can REJECT them, you can even believe them; but you cannot lie and say that there are none IN SCRIPTURE that declare that Jesus is the saviour of all men. So your pathetic attempt to say that my summation of the previous post is nothing but just a satanic lie because you assume there are no verses in scripture that declare the salvation of all men is exposed as the hoax it is. My summation stands you do not have any salvation of ALL verses fulfilled; You cannot pray the will of God for all men to be saved and come into the truth; and all scripture is not fulfilled in your version of the gospel.

                      The gospel is supposed to be glad tidings of great Joy to ALL men but the message of Hell your denomination has taught you makes it a message of great terror to most men and sadness for the rest who actually loved their family members who did not make it to heaven. Only the salvation of all after great judgment makes the gospel message glad tiding of great joy to all men.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 4, 2013 at 6:11 pm

                      Thank you for you r kind words.Alice

                      There are many compelling truths in the scripture that put huge holes in the doctrine of eternal torment. The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah is one found in Ezekiel 16

                      Eze 16:49-55 KJV Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (51) Neither hath Samaria committed half of thy sins; but thou hast multiplied thine abominations more than they, and hast justified thy sisters in all thine abominations which thou hast done. (52) Thou also, which hast judged thy sisters, bear thine own shame for thy sins that thou hast committed more abominable than they: they are more righteous than thou: yea, be thou confounded also, and bear thy shame, in that thou hast justified thy sisters. (53) When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: (54) That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. (55) When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou (Jerusalem) and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

                      Too bad many don’t read their bibles.

                      Grace ad Peace Patrick

                    • Stephen Helbig February 4, 2013 at 8:19 pm

                      Patrick I like what Patrick Strickland says: ~ on February 4, 2013 at 5:55 pm post!
                      Excellent, sound, upright, dependable, highly regarded, trustworthy, honest, and I LIKE. ~ A GREAT WORD

                      ……….. /–)
                      ………/ …/
                      ……./ ….(__ ____
                      ▓▓…….. ..((_ l___)
                      ▓▓…….. ..((_ i___)
                      ▓▓…….. ..((_ k___)
                      ▓▓—-.___( (_e__ )

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 5, 2013 at 5:12 am

                      Again, Patrick, you mis-interpret “all” your way overlooking {Isaiah 45: 24} “and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed” who are not bowing nor confessing, and they are rebellious and unbelieving. There are two “all” groups: the righteous and the incensed.

                      You also miss the point God makes in Ezekiel 16:49-55 because He is using Sodom figuratively as permanently destroyed, never to be rebuilt. God is saying “No Chance” of that happening {return to their former estate}.

                      There’s nothing compelling about your misinterpretations which are so common to you.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 9, 2013 at 5:20 pm

                      Hi Lanny How are you doing this fine day? Thank you for your opinion of how you think I am misrepresenting the Word of God. I do agree Lanny All is a context sensitive word; If I was to say “All the trees in the field burned” then there would be nothing in that sentence to suggest that all the trees in the field did not burn. Nor would you assume that all the trees in the entire world burned, but only the trees in the field we are specifically talking about. Now if I said “that all the trees in the field burned but the old oak tree near the center of the field”, then it would be safe to assume that all the trees in that field burned except for the one oak tree near the center of the field. Context will determine the actual meaning of the word all. I have absolutely no problem with that.

                      However In Isaiah 45 I must say this that since God has just informed man that any god that cannot save is an idol and a creation of the imagination of man. He goes to great lengths to inform us that all men not some men will be saved by commanding ALL the ends of the earth to look and be saved and then he says he has spoken in righteousness and his word will not return to him. Which brings to mind something Isaiah later says in the same book (Isa 55:10-11) when he says that God’s word shall not return to him void but it shall accomplish what He pleases and shall prosper in what He sent it to do. He then swears by Himself because he cannot swear by any greater guaranteeing it shall be accomplished because he cannot lie that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in Him they will have righteousness and strength that ALL men will look and be saved by covenant swearing – confessing that in Him Jesus Christ the Lord they have righteousness and strength and as that passage states, “to Him men will come.” Therefore all men will be saved WHEN THEY ARE ALL GATHERED INTO JESUS CHRIST AT THE DISPENSATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES Eph 1:10. This word has gone forth in righteousness and will not return to God void. God does what he pleases and NO MAN CAN STAY HIS HAND FROM ACCOMPLISHING WHAT HE DESIRES TO DO. There are many passages that declare this fact.

                      Psa 115:3 KJV But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

                      Isa 46:10-13 KJV Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (11) Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I HAVE SPOKEN IT, I WILL ALSO BRING IT TO PASS; I HAVE PURPOSED IT , I WILL DO IT. (12) Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: (13) I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

                      Dan 4:34-35 KJV And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation: (35) And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?

                      IN CONTEXT when Isaiah then says “and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.” God is absolutely not talking about all as being all those going to hell since he has just told the whole world that HE fully intends to save ALL men. No a thousand times NO!!! If that was true you have just made God nothing but liar and an idol of your own creation who cannot save all men as he just swore by his own name to do. No there is not two separate groups seen in that passage all men saved and all incensed at god who are going to hell. The context is clearly God swearing by himself to save all men. Hell is not even mentioned in that passage. There is one group visible in context all men who are saved and there is a subset of that whole group who are very mad at God who are going to be disappointed. Now you need to ask your self why would anyone be upset at God for actually saving all men? The answer is very simple most men are being taught that God is not going to save all men but that he is going to torture in hell forever all those who either have not heard or do not accept his salvation in this life. This group of people do not want God to be the saviour of all men BECAUSE IT GOES AGAINST WHAT THEY HAVE BEEN TAUGHT all of their lives as the word of God. These saints who have believed their denominations traditions are going to be very upset with God for saving all men. All those who are mad at God for saving all men are going to be ashamed. Now the word ashamed in the Hebrew is “bush” and means to be ashamed, to be disappointed, to be confounded, to be in confusion. All those who are mad at God for saving all men are going to be disappointed. All those who are mad at God for saving all men are going to be confounded. All those who are mad at God for saving all men are going to be in confusion. But scripture does not say All those who are mad at God for saving all men are going to be cast into hell forever. When you find out that God is going to do what he has sworn to do and that He IS GOING TO SAVE ALL MEN I dare you to bring up Matthew 7 to God at that time you will be in for a shock because your argument will not get you any where with God. You will be ashamed, disappointed, and confused. He has already declared what he fully intends to do and his word has gone forth in righteousness and will not return to him without accomplishing what he sent it to do.

                      Hell is a pagan idea that men who worship idols who cannot save have created to control other men. The Babylonians taught it, the Egyptians taught it, the Greeks taught it, the Romans taught it, The forefathers of the vikings and the vikings themselves taught it, and when men in the church ousted the holy spirit out of the church as the teacher and started to vote upon what truth was they brought into the church every pagan concept they could find and began to teach them as the truth of the word of God. They then persecuted, and killed all men with any different viewpoints than what they accepted as truth. Any thing that was written to the contrary that they taught as truth was burned. Any man who wrote anything that contradicted what they taught as truth was excommunicated from the church and called a heretic. This happened to Many even centuries after they were dead and buried. If someone was alive during that time the church would step in and take possession of their homes and business They would then be tortured and put to death for being a heretic. The pagan idea of hell is deeply ingrained in the church because of this very thing.

                      The fact is that most of the church for the reason stated above is brainwashed into believing that God fully intends to send most mankind to hell when the very opposite is the truth of scripture. That is why with such a clear statement in Ezekiel 16 where God says that Sodom will be restored you must make it a metaphor and a statement that he will not restore Sodom. Now why did you make it a metaphor when it is clearly a prophetic promise of a literal restoration? Now I would love for you to show me in the context of that chapter How a clear statement of restoration of Sodom that is in scripture becomes a metaphor of God not restoring Sodom at all? I need verses from chapter 16 where it is clearly laid out that Sodom will NOT be restored. Problem for you is you are not going to find any since two verses clearly state that Sodom will be restored.

                      Eze 16:53-55 KJV When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them: (54) That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them. (55) When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

                      See in context because of How bad Jerusalem was acting God said he was going to restore Sodom and Samaria to their former estate, before he fully restores Jerusalem to their former estate. Jerusalem’s bad behavior before the Lord ensures that Sodom and Samaria are comforted by being restored to their former estate before Jerusalem gets to be fully restored to her former estate.

                      If they are restored and they will be restored then this is an example of after death repentance. But your belief in hell will not let you believe in the clear word of the Lord. Your belief in hell will not let you do the will of the Lord and let you pray for all men to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth without doubting.

                      Now there is nothing in all the context of the passages of scriptures I have provided in my previous post to you that modifies “ALL” to be anything less then the whole everyone ALL MEN. It would be foolish of you to think that God IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN especially those that believe to be anything less then every man ever born upon this earth to be saved by God. Scripture does not declare that God is the saviour of some men. I can find word for word scriptures that declare that “God is saviour of all men”, I can find word for word scriptures that declare “God will have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”. Sadly there is absolutely no word for word verses that declare that God will ‘NOT’ save all men; nor can you find any scripture that word for word declares God is ‘Not” the saviour of all men. If there would have been one you would have already pointed it out. You are free to believe in hell all you want but don’t be surprised when you become disappointed when God fulfills His sworn word.

                      Lanny you are free to try and point out any modifiers in the context in all the passages I have quoted that change all to something less then every one.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Patrick Strickland February 9, 2013 at 5:36 pm

                      Thanks Stephen appreciate the comments I am glad to see that you agree with Paul when He calls this message faithful and true and worthy for all acceptance.

                      God bless you sir

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 11, 2013 at 12:05 am

                      Stephen, your quote SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE. Do you understand what that means? It means their estate at their destruction in Genesis 19: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. Do you seriously expect God to return every inhabitant of those twin cities back to the earth exactly as it was in Abraham’s day in all their wickednesses?

                      Ezekiel 16: 55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

                      You expect God to return Jerusalem to its former estate of wickedness? You call that “comforted by being restored to their former estate”? Tell me how wickedness is comforting. Are you really using your head?

                      Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {Jude 7} {see also 2 Peter 2: 7 – 9}

                      What kind of example does God set if eternal isn’t eternal, dear Patrick? God destroys them and then later changes His mind and brings them back to the same way they were? Three whole wicked cities?

                      No, Patrick, “when {they} return” is NEVER and that’s what God means, “When I shall bring again their captivity” verse 53 = NEVER. Since you can’t get this right, it is no wonder you can’t get God’s salvation right either. You make Jesus a Liar in Matthew 7: 13, 14, 21 – 23.

                      Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
                      depart from me, ye that work iniquity
                      shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. {Matthew 13: 41, 42}

                      Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth
                      Only those who “look” since choice is required while on earth. Earthdwellers only are addressed. You cannot prove otherwise. Salvation is ONLY offered in mortal earth life. There is NO salvation offered after physical death. No doctrine for it and no examples of it.

                    • Stephen Helbig February 12, 2013 at 1:22 pm

                      Lanny A. Eichert says: February 11, 2013 at 12:05 am; ~ Stephen, your quote SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE. Do you understand what that means? It means their estate at their destruction in Genesis 19: 13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it. Do you seriously expect God to return every inhabitant of those twin cities back to the earth exactly as it was in Abraham’s day in all their wickednesses? Ezekiel 16: 55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate. You expect God to return Jerusalem to its former estate of wickedness? You call that “comforted by being restored to their former estate”? Tell me how wickedness is comforting. Are you really using your head?

                      Stephen says, ~ Lanny, my answer is NO! God will not return those cities to a state of wickedness. ~ “For our citizenship is in heaven, FROM WHENCE WE LOOK…” ~ One can never understand the power of Christ’s resurrection until we know our union with Him. There are a couple of scriptures that I would like to consider with you. If you will let these gracious inspired words speak for themselves. The following words of the apostle Paul are supercharged with meaning and spiritual significance. “For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself” (Phil. 3:20-21). Notice the opening statement of this beautiful passage declares that “Our conversation is in heaven.” The word conversation is from the Greek word POLITEUMA meaning “CITIZENSHIP.” It is not our words or our talk that are in heaven, but our citizenship – our habitation and residence with full civil rights. We are citizens of heaven. Our residence is in heaven. Heaven is our place of birth, our homeland, our native sphere of habitation.”For our citizenship is in heaven, FROM WHENCE WE LOOK…
                      Lanny, now concerning ~”Thy sister SODOM and her daughters shall return to their former estate.” ~ What does the personal, plural pronoun their refer to? The city or the people? It refers to the people, of course. So all through the latter part of this chapter, the most casual of reading will show that by the term Sodom it is meant in every case, the inhabitants of that ancient city. The pronouns ‘their,’ ‘they,’ and ‘them’ in verses 47-55 cannot refer to the city nor to the land but to the people.
                      Lanny, please again see my post ~ Stephen Helbig says: October 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm ~ Job 38:7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy” ~
                      Look also @ ~(Prov. 8:22-34) ~
                      22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
                      23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
                      24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
                      25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
                      26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
                      27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
                      28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
                      29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
                      30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
                      31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men. 32 Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
                      33 Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
                      34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

                      p.s. ~ We are being brought back to our one true love and to the same glory we had with the Father before the world was.

                    • Stephen Helbig February 12, 2013 at 2:17 pm

                      I give way to our brother Patrick Strickland, who I see being meek in our Lord Jesus Christ; and with great anticipation I look forward to the testimony brought forth thru him of “Christ in you the hope of Glory” ~ which Patrick has presented to us. ~ (That through these exceedingly great and precious promises of God we may become participants of the divine nature, fleeing from the corruption which is in the world)

                    • Patrick Strickland February 14, 2013 at 1:00 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      You had a great well thought out response till you said that Jerusalem will be restored into sin. They were sinning so bad that God declared that he would restore Sodom and Samaria before he would restore them. You should check out the entire chapter of Ezekiel 16 especially verses 1-14 where God raised Jerusalem up and clothed her. That is what God restores Jerusalem to her beauty she had in him. He is not restoring them so that they will continually sin. That is not his ultimate goal and purpose at all for restoration.

                      Did you know that spiritually speaking that Jerusalem is considered to be Sodom?

                      Rev 11:8 KJV And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

                      And as such God has destroyed spiritual Sodom around 20 times (check out the web for the exact figure of how many times Jerusalem was destroyed) whenever her sins became too grievous to bear and has restored her each time. Now this speaks volumes God raises up Jerusalem and because of her sin he corrects her and when she continues to sin he destroys her; afterwords he raises her back up and as long as she follow him she is blessed but the moment she starts to sin the whole process begins again. Historically This process has been repeated time and time again. Destruction, restoration, blessing, destruction, restoration, blessing, etc … until some time in the future when finally God’s new covenant take full effect in their lives and God cleanses them fully and removes from them all their filthiness, idols and sanctifies himself totally in them. God is not going to quit dealing with the city till he does what he wants to do: He is not going to burn the whole city in hell forever and ever just because they sin. No he is going to continue to judge their sins and bring correction to them until he establishes his new covenant in them fully. And if he needs to destroy them over and over again He is going to do just that till He gets what He is after… a people he can fully sanctify Himself in. This is his goal for all people everywhere, and he is not going to rest till he accomplishes it.

                      Jer 31:31-34 KJV Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

                      Jer 32:37-41 KJV Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely: (38) And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: (39) And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: (40) And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. (41) Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.

                      Eze 36:23-30 KJV And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, WHEN I SHALL BE SANCTIFIED IN YOU before their eyes. (24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. (25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, AND YE SHALL BE CLEAN; FROM ALL YOUR FILTHINESS, AND FROM ALL YOUR IDOLS, WILL I CLEANSE YOU. (26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (29) I WILL ALSO SAVE YOU FROM ALL YOUR UNCLEANNESSES: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. (30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.

                      Now if he has done this and is doing it for spiritual Sodom what makes you think that he is not going to do the exact same thing for literal Sodom when he restores them to their former estate. And if he is willing to do this for a city what makes you think he is not willing to do the same thing for any individual who are called cities set upon a hill.

                      Mat 5:14 KJV Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 5:13 pm

            Alice please post this one and erase the other.

            Hi Lannie

            you said (2) by applying the glory of John 17: 5 & 22 and 2 Corinthians 3: 18 to the whole human race when only the disciples of Christ are meant. For this he claims Habakkuk 2: 14 and “his lunch break vision” because the perfect literal Holy Bible isn’t enough.

            2. Only His disciples will enjoy the glory, are you absolutely sure? Dear Lannie Did you know that when God really wanted to stress the fact that what he promised in the holy scripture was absolutely going to come to pass that he swore by Himself thus guaranteeing that what He declared was not going to return to him void but that it would accomplish what He sent it to do. Let us look at two things he swore by himself He was going to absolutely accomplish that both involve His glory.

            The first one is in Numbers Num 14:21 KJV But as truly as I live, ALL THE EARTH shall be filled with the glory of the LORD.

            The second one is in Isaiah 45 Isa 45:19-24 KJV I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

            The traditions of men have made God into an idol that cannot save ALL MEN yet God commands all the ends of the earth to look and they shall be saved. Then He guarantees that all the ends of the world will be saved by swearing by Himself that every knee will bow and every tongue confess, now the Hebrew word for “confess” means to covenant swear seven times … and what will they confess covenant swear seven times “that in Him they have righteousness and strength”. That is a very important point we will be back to it later, so make sure you remember it. Now I know you noticed that it said that one will say in the LORD have I righteousness and strength, Now that one speaking is actually a corporate Christ. when we are all gathered into Christ like Eph 1:10 states then we shall be able to declare that in Him we have righteousness and strength. Eph 1:10 KJV That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together IN ONE all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

            Now you may also ask where is the glory involved in what we have just discussed IN THAT LAST SCRIPTURE IN ISAIAH 45? That is a good question let us look at a verse in the new testament that declares the answer to that. Php 2:10-11 KJV That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

            There is the glory in verse 11. And if you think dear sir that all of our confession that Jesus Christ is Lord only brings honour, praise to God the Father, you should check out the Greek for the word “to” it is the word eis pronounced ice and means into, indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, or purpose. You see Lannie All are guaranteed to confess that in Him they have righteousness and
            strength. All will bow their knees and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and by confessing He is Lord they will enter into the glory of God their Father, and that glory we all enter into is the place and purpose of God for all of us. No man can say Jesus is Lord except by the spirit of God. (I Cor 12:3) that means our confession will not meet His standard to be accepted unless it is totally by the spirit of God. God has sworn that our confession will be accepted and all the ends of the earth will be saved.

            Any man can after the flesh call Him Lord, but then we shall find out that He will tell us Why call me Lord and do not the things I command and He will send us away back into the darkness we have been in all of our lives, because we are workers of Iniquity. But then He will send upon us the spirit of judgment and burning purging out of us what offends, the flesh, then we will in due time be brought back into His throne where we shall again confess He is Lord and if we still are speaking from out of a mixture of the flesh and spirit He will again say why call me Lord and do not the things I command depart from me you workers of iniquity, and again He shall send the spirit of judgment and burning upon us this process will occur seven times until we can make a confession out of the spirit alone Jesus will be absolutely Lord over every area of our lives and our walk will becomes totally like His Son Jesus walk before His Father. Each time there will be less flesh and more of the spirit of God in us so that we can learn to live our lives by His spirit alone. God is working to bring all of us totally and fully into His glory into the same spirit, the same faith that He gave His son Jesus Christ so that we all may truly be as He is in this earth.

            This truly verifies what Paul said that God is the Saviour of ALL men especially (but not only) those that believe.

            1Ti 4:9-10 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

            It is guaranteed by God’s own name when he sware by Himself for all men to bow their knees and every tongue to covenant swear and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord that eventually in His timing and plan All men will become His disciples. All men will be brought into His glory.

            Grace and Peace Patrick

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 5:21 pm

            Hi Lannie

            You said Then he errs in September 27, 2012 at 5:53 pm Dream Machines (3) by claiming no knowledge {no cognitive reasoning} in the grave until they hear the voice of the son of God NOT REALIZING they cannot recognize {hear} the voice without {cognitive reasoning} knowledge.

            Dear sir this is nothing but a straw man argument of your own creation. I did not write the verse it is God’s word. He had it written. The problem is you just do not believe the definitions of the actual Hebrew of each word in that verse in Ecc 9:10 and are offended by them because they contradict your traditions that men have taught you as truth. Maybe you should take the time to look up the definitions of each word in that verse to prove to yourself that what I said is not just made up junk, but is actually what the word of God says.

            Death in scripture is described in many places as sleep, a sleeping person is not conscience of their surroundings. Yet the traditions of men would teach us to believe that after death the sinner is conscience of torture forever even when it contradicts what God has written in His word concerning those who are in sheol. The dead are not conscience but the moment God speaks he raises them out of the death realm and is beginning to resurrect them back into life. When the dead hear God speak they are no longer asleep but are now waking up. To assume that once they are asleep they can no longer wake up and be conscience even after God speaks to them to raise them out of the sleep of death is not really a good reason at all. It boils down to being just an assumption on your part of what you think the implications are. But being unconscience in the sleep of death does not mean that once Gd speaks to you that you will not be conscience so that you can wake up, be raised up out of death.

            Please Lannie don’t give me just your carnal reasonings and objections to what I write but please try to provide me with at least some scriptural spiritual reasons for why it is not true.

            Grace and peace Patrick

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 5:30 pm

            Hi Lannie:

            You have said

            He errs (4) by making the Sons of God of Romans 8: 19 to be the dry bones of Ezekiel 37:12-13 because he cannot distinguish Israel from the Church, the Body of Christ, in prophecy.

            Actually dear sir I never made the Manifested Sons of God to be the valley of dry bones, I compared them to the prophet Ezekiel who prophesied as he was commanded, and as he prophesied to all the dead dry bones, they all came back to life. In chapter one of Ezekiel all He saw in that chapter can be summed up as seeing the glory of the Lord (v 28). He saw the four faced cherubim which only moved where the spirit of the Lord went.(v 20-22) Now in the new testament when we see the glory of the Lord we are changed into the same glory from glory to glory, that we see. So it was with Ezekiel, He was changed throughout the rest of the book he only did what the spirit of the Lord told Him to do He only spoke what and when the spirit of the Lord told Him to. He was changed by seeing the glory of the Lord in chapter One. Ezekiel became a type of the manifested sons of God and the ministry that they have.

            To me the same Prophecy can be fulfilled many times and in many ways. Prophecy can be fulfilled over and over again. It can be fulfilled naturally, individually corporately, spiritually. Peter declared that the prophets of old by the spirit of Christ in them did not prophecy just to themselves but unto us I Peter 1:

            1Pe 1:8-13 KJV Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (9) Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. (10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. (13) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

            Who is “us” that the prophets prophesied to? Why the “us” are all of those who are the church who make up the body of Christ both Jew and gentile who are one in Christ. Did you know that there is a natural Israel and that there is a spiritual Israel in scripture? First God establishes the natural then He establishes the spiritual reality that the natural actually is nothing but just a type and shadow of. Natural Israel after the flesh is only just a shadow of the true reality found in the spirit.

            1Co 15:44-49 KJV It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

            We all know who natural Israel is, so let me illustrate who the real Israel spiritually is. When Jesus was a child he was sent to Egypt and at the appointed time he returned to the promised land this scripture declares was incredibly a fulfillment of a prophecy in the old testament.

            Mat 2:15 KJV And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

            This prophecy came from Hosea 11 where we find out that name of Israel is actually the name of His son.

            Hos 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

            This is verified in Exodus 4

            Exo 4:22 KJV And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

            Jesus Christ is spiritual Israel the first born son, the beloved of His Father. As a side note Remember scripture declares that all the promises in Him are Yea and amen. So any prophecy dealing with Israel can be fulfilled in Christ. Now I have no problem with natural Israel after the flesh having a fulfillment as the dry bones coming to life in the prophecy in Ezekiel 37 that will happen. But that is not all I see in that verse. But I see Much more then just that as a fulfillment of prophecy that all things are going to be gathered together in one which is into Christ as Ephesian 1:10 declares. And that Spiritually the whole House of Israel includes all men who are dead in their trespasses and sins. And the Manifested sons of God the first fruits are going to prophecy as they are commanded and bring all creation all the dry bones of the whole house of Israel out of death into the very same liberty of the glory that they have in Christ Jesus, just like Ezekiel brought all the house of Israel out of their graves into the same glory He has

            Traditional dispensationalism sees both that the promises of God apply to natural Israel and the Church, and the way they teach it the church will take second place to Israel once Israel are saved. But the truth is that God sees neither he only sees Christ; Jesus being the head and the church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, as members in particular of His body. This corporate Christ is the Israel of God the child of promise.

            Grace and Peace Patrick

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 5:42 pm

            Hi Lannie

            You have said the following:

            He errs (5) by making the TWO resurrections of John 5: 29 multiple individual resurrections throughout human history, like Alice’s insistence on every man in his own order of 1 Corinthians 15: 23, again putting unrelated texts together. Hey guys, have you seen a resurrected person lately? Since you’re preaching your Amazing Hope, why aren’t you one of those resurrected ones?

            Religion has always taught and rightly so that the resurrection is a certain day sometime in the future. Jesus however did not teach just a certain day or period of time for the resurrection to occur, but He taught that He was the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25) We have been taught for years that there is going to be a resurrection of the dead someday; but today, if you can hear his voice speaking to you, you can begin to experience the resurrection out of death into life. You can begin to enter into Him who is the resurrection and the life. The more your eye becomes single the more you will experience Him as your resurrection and life that is found only by being in Him.

            See there is only one sin that the Holy Ghost is going to convict us of and that is Not believing in or as the Greek actually says INTO him. (John 16:9 Greek word translated “in” is eis which means into). We are complete in Him and when we come to fully understand that we really truly are complete in Him then we will realize that Christ did not die just only to forgive us of sins. We will know that when He died we died but not only did we die in Him but ALL MEN died in him… we will know that we have been joined together with Him in his circumcision, death, burial, and in His resurrection; we even have been raised up to sit in His throne with Him in heaven.

            2Co 5:14-19 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. (16) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (18) And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

            Col 2:10-15 KJV And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also YE ARE RISEN WITH HIM through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (15) And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

            Gal 2:20 KJV I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

            Eph 2:5-6 KJV Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And HATH RAISED US UP TOGETHER, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

            2Co 4:10-11 KJV Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. (11) For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

            When Christ died for all then all died. Remember the foundation that all men had in common that foundation is Christ and Him crucified. When He died for all, all died. God did not miss a single soul He included everyone who was ever born or who would be born in Christ, and when He died at the cross all died.

            2Co 5:14 KJV For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

            When we hear the voice of the son of God for ourselves then we shall be raised out of death in our sins and we shall be raise up together with him. All Christians should be partaking IN SOME MEASURE of His resurrection, and should be quickened WITH HIM NOW, which is why scripture informs us

            Col 3:1 KJV If YE THEN BE RISEN WITH CHRIST, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

            Lannie the death of Jesus only reconciles us to God, but it is Him living through us that actually saves us and makes us whole.

            Rom 5:8-10 KJV But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (10) For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be SAVED by his life.

            The resurrection is available for all believers to experience now, if they can hear Him speak and through faith enter into it.

            Grace and Peace Patrick

          • Patrick Strickland October 7, 2012 at 6:02 pm

            He errs (6) by using Isaiah 26: 9 to prove their individual resurrections to judgment causes them to learn righteousness unto salvation without having read the next two verses refuting that. As always Patrick pieces together texts that don’t belong together, claiming he heard God speaking to him what He actually meant. Your story is a total frabrication unsupported by proper Scripture, proving your Amazing Hope a total falsehood.

            Dear sir I have too much respect and love for God to ever causally say God spoke if he did not say something. I only teach what he has revealed to me, by His anointing. We all as Christians have the same anointing that can teach us His truth if we all learn to listen to him tell us what He actually meant by what was written.

            1Jn 2:27 KJV But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

            The church has for too long just listened to carnal minded men’s opinions about what they think the word of God means and there has been absolutely no power, authority, or even the spirit of God on what they have declared as truth. You should seriously ask yourself a simple question concerning anything you hold to be true scripturaly. That question is “Who taught you what you know? Did God teach you, or did just some man speaking his opinions about God?

            As to Isaiah 26:9-11 there is a huge difference between judgment and mercy When Judgment is in the earth the inhabitants will learn righteousness but when just His favour, mercy is shown to the wicked they will not learn righteousness. To assume the two verses are talking about the same thing shows that maybe you need to spend more time studying before you actually assume they contradict each other.

            Grace and Peace Patrick

    • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2012 at 12:11 am

      Does Patrick’s explanation: “so in hell Sheol the grave there is no cognitive reasoning” also mean in your interpretation of 1 Peter 3: 18 – 20 your jesus preached to those spirits that had no cognitive reasoning?

      • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2012 at 12:30 pm

        Yes, Alice, you cannot not necessarily agree with “in hell Sheol the grave there is no cognitive reasoning” because your interpretation of 1 Peter 3: 18 – 20 would be pointless, but does Patrick see that?

        Ten Bible verses do not prove there is no cognitive reasoning in hell Sheol the grave, but they do prove there is no Gospel content delivered to them. The unbelievers’ knowledge remains static: he knows only what he knew at death plus his torment of his terrible environment where he finds himself. You cannot appeal to 1 Peter 3: 18 – 20 as proof of additional information provided to him for two reasons: first, it accomplished NOTHING, and second, it is a false interpretation since it doesn’t conform to the then verses.

        For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
        let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
        they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
        among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
        Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
        The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
        for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
        For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

        • admin September 26, 2012 at 8:47 pm

          Notice that these are all written from the perspective of the living and in the Age of Law.

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2012 at 9:52 pm

            That changes nothing because it is the perfect inspired literal Word of God.

            • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2012 at 10:04 pm

              It is from the perspective of the Living God Who gave it by inspiration and is as eternally true as He is.

        • Lanny A. Eichert September 27, 2012 at 1:42 pm

          Alice, 19th century Christianity is reflected in parts in the scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints {Mormons} and at the early beginning they knew and taught once you die your knowledge is STATIC, unchangeable, and you are unredeemable.

          Alma 34: 32 – 36 of the Book of Mormon

          32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

          33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

          34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

          35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

          36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell;

          And Alma 12: 14 – 16of the Book of Mormon

          16 And now behold, I say unto you then cometh a death, even a second death, which is a spiritual death; then is a time that whosoever dieth in his sins, as to a temporal death, shall also die a spiritual death; yea, he shall die as to things pertaining unto righteousness.

          17 Then is the time when their torments shall be as a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever; and then is the time that they shall be chained down to an everlasting destruction, according to the power and captivity of Satan, he having subjected them according to his will.

          18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.

          I use these scriptures from a false religion because false religions MIX truth with error and the truth of this static condition of unbelieving humanity upon death is nicely expounded here although perfect truth is sourced only in the perfect literal Holy Bible from which I quote the ten undisputable verses that prove your Amazing Hope a complete falsehood.

          For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
          let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
          they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
          among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
          Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
          The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
          for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
          For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

  • Mary Vanderplas September 25, 2012 at 9:43 pm

    Your tracing of the people and the technological developments that led to the invention and widespread use of the Internet is fascinating. So is your discussion of how developments in the world of communication have impacted society and the church – enabling ideas and information to be widely propagated and accessed and in doing so pushing toward more egalitarian power structures. For the most part, I like the parallels you draw between the technological advances at various stages of the process of the development of the Internet and the stages of development in the religious world toward a church that more closely reflects God’s intention of the priesthood of all believers. Your insights here are brilliant and thought-provoking. I have some trouble, though, with the parallel that you draw between Internet users having to pay to be connected whether or not something was transmitted and the practice of religion, which from your perspective is a paying of one’s dues, a participation in form devoid of substance. For at least some of us who attend weekly communal worship and do some of the other things that are commonly associated with religion, we do so not out of a fear-based compulsion, as your comments seem to imply, but out of a genuine conviction that this is God’s will for us (without presuming to judge those who don’t agree and who choose to express their devotion differently). Attending worship on Sunday mornings, in particular, is something I enjoy and look forward to; your description of it as “giving up your Sunday morning” doesn’t fit my experience.

    While I agree that religion throughout most of its history and in its contemporary expressions has often fallen short of God’s vision, I am not ready to trash it by saying that it is the “bizarre and meaningless counterfeit” of spirituality. I might think differently about the alleged superiority of spirituality were it not for the fact that in my experience, roughly 95 percent of the “spiritual-but-not-religious” crowd I meet give little evidence of ever engaging in thoughtful reflection on theological issues or of having a belief worth living and dying for. When I pose probing questions to these self-proclaimed anti-religion folk about exactly what they believe, typically what I hear are vague and vacuous statements about “finding God in nature” and “getting in touch with god within.” While there is, of course, nothing wrong with appreciating nature’s testimony to the Creator (though it needs to be noted that this testimony is less than crystal clear), and while it is true that believers are guided and enlightened by the indwelling Spirit, the fact is that these self-made spiritualities bear scant resemblance to the meaty fare offered in many churches, whose teaching is based on the biblical revelation of God’s love in Christ for sinners who are unable to “do it ourselves.” Perhaps if more of the time I heard something other than the “God-after-my-own-likeness” tripe I typically hear from this crowd, I would be more inclined to think more highly of their “spirituality.” There are exceptions to this, of course: self-declared anti-religion people such as yourself who give evidence of a deeper faith that is rooted in the witness of scripture. But, for the most part, my experience leaves me unconvinced that spirituality is the real thing while religion is but a grotesque counterfeit.

    I like what you say about the vast potential, made possible by the Internet, for discovering and sharing new and valuable information and about the benefits to society when everyone has a voice. While I can understand your point about hermits and antisocial people refusing to buy into a system that squelched the freedom of the majority, I think that for at least some who invent their own spirituality, shunning the church, the issue is an unrealistic expectation that the church be something other than the community of sinners that it is. I think you’re right to observe that, while the Internet has vast potential for good, it also can be used for goals that are opposed to the reign of God. Given that the powers of darkness affect all people and institutions, it is a safe bet that this tool will be used for both good and bad ends. I share your hope that it promote the flourishing of human life – every human life – in community.

  • Casting Crowns « www.whatgoddoes.com October 26, 2012 at 11:14 am

    […] not.  Thankfully, the Internet seems to be redefining such systems.  Only time will tell whether this gift from God (the Internet) will be hijacked by the power structures.  I suspect that it will.  Regardless, I believe there […]

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