Hell in Revelation

Hell in Revelation

In Francis Chan’s book, Erasing Hell (chapter four: What Jesus’ Followers Said About Hell), he examines Hell in the book of Revelation.  I could make the sad mistake of digging deeply into the theological Molasses Swamp of eschatology, soteriology, exegesis, eisegesis, hermeneutics, isagogics, dittology, and other Christianese sesquipedalian convolutions, but that’s exactly what Churchianity has been doing for two millennia now.  That’s why there are over 40,000 denominations in Christianity.  The last thing we need is more of THAT.

Instead, I’ll take a step back and look at WHY there are so very many ideas out there about Hell and even more ideas about the book of Revelation.  Metaphor.  Yep.  That’s the problem or the solution to the problem, depending on what you do with metaphor.

Jesus loves metaphor.  This troubled his disciples.  Apparently, it still does.

In the very first verse of Revelation, readers are told what to expect: “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it…”  Here’s the Greek word, here translated “signified.”

We use signs or imagery to communicate ideas all the time.  Here are a few examples:

All the world’s a stage, and all the men and women merely players. – William Shakespeare

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. – Albert Einstein

“The past is a pebble in my shoe.” – Edgar Allan Poe

No one reads these examples and thinks that the world is actually a stage, that there’s a tree somewhere that is made of religion and art and science, or that the linear concept of “past” is a pebble in the shoe of Edgar Allan Poe.  In each of these examples there are non-metaphorical elements: the world, men, women, religions, arts, sciences, and the past.  We are supposed to think of these in the way we normally think of these.  We combine the non-metaphorical elements with the metaphorical elements to create meaning.  Each example is loaded with meaning.  I could write an entire blog series on each example, if I set my mind to it.

So it is with Revelation.  So it is with the word “Hell.”

The trouble with Francis Chan’s view of Hell in Revelation is that he makes metaphor of non-metaphor or non-metaphor of metaphor, or if he gets his metaphors and non-metaphors straight, he applies the wrong meaning.

For example, Chan writes:

In the final chapters of the book… John depicts a blessed, never-ending age of peace, joy, and victory for all who “follow the Lamb.”  …But there is also a future for all who don’t follow Him.  Here’s how the author describes it: “The devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfer where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”

I seriously doubt that there are any believers who actually believe that the Lamb looks like this:

So why should we believe that the Lake of Fire looks like this?

Furthermore, Revelation 22:5 says there will be “no more night” after God supposedly destroys the universe and creates a new one.  So how is it that people are tormented “day” and “night” if there is no longer any such thing as “day” or “night”?

It would not surprise me if this diagram annoys religious people, especially the ones who think they’ve got it all figured out.  They might protest, “Of course it looks ridiculous when you show it like this, Alice.  These are metaphors!  The first beast represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the second beast represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the sea represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the false prophet represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the abyss represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the dragon represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), the earth represents __________ (fill in the blank with one of 40,000 ideas, depending on what the “experts” in your denomination tell you), but the Lake of Fire, you had better take that literally!”

Chan writes, “I really believe it’s time for some of us to stop apologizing for God and start apologizing to Him for being embarrassed by the ways He has chosen to reveal Himself.”

No, Chan.  We need to apologize to mankind for misrepresenting God.  There’s a good reason for feeling embarrassed.  It has a name.  He’s called the Spirit of God, your Teacher, Who whispers truth into the core of your being.

Chan writes, “What causes my heart to ache right now as I’m writing this is that my life shows little evidence that I actually believe this.  Every time my thoughts wander to the future of unbelievers, I quickly brush them aside so they don’t ruin my day.  But there is a reality here that I can’t ignore.”

No, Chan.  What causes your heart to ache is the Spirit of God, grieving as you repeatedly exchange His wisdom for the unfathomably horrific doctrines of your denominational “experts.”  The reason your life shows no evidence that you actually believe this is that you actually don’t believe it.  Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits.”  Trust me, if you really believed this, then your book would sound remarkably like Lanny Eichert’s blog comments (please do read them here on www.whatgoddoes.com).  Your fruits don’t match what you proclaim as truth.  Thank God.

Chan writes, “I have to ask myself if I really believe what I have written in this book.  Hell is real.  Am I?”

I suggest that Chan ask himself this, instead: Do you really believe what you have written in this book? You are real. Is Hell?

 

Book Review: Francis Chan’s Erasing HellWhat I Like about Chan’s AttitudeWhy Chan Can’t Erase HellChan’s Theological Monkey Paintings: God SwearsIf God Swears, Then What About…Why Chan Can’t Erase Hell: The Anathema of ScrutinyWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: All = SomeWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Now or NeverWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Sin WinsWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: English vs GreekWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: In This LifeWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Saved by Who’s Choice?One of Chan’s Missing ScripturesWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Fumbled FablesWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Croissants Falling from the SkyExposition on the Reign of God: Narrow vs WideWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Jesus, Lord of DistanceWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: AbominationWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Fear NotWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Obama Is FatWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Invalid ArgumentWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Everlasting SneezeWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Jesus Didn’t Get the MemoWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Screwed Up MathWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: Bad AnalogiesWhy Chan Can’t Erase Hell: A Good Dose of Interpretive Humility.

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert December 7, 2012 at 11:48 am

    Alice, That’s why there are over 40,000 denominations in Christianity. The last thing we need is more of THAT.

    That’s the very statement false CULTS use to justify their interpretations and claims to be the only true religion. Your own view parrots them perfectly.

    God’s churches are diverse in unity, but you can’t tolerate that, can you?

    • admin December 7, 2012 at 7:33 pm

      Cults say that? Then they speak truth. But I’m not involved in or promoting any cult. I’ll agree with the diversity, but not the unity. And there is no such thing as God’s churches (plural). There is one only one church.

      • Lanny A. Eichert December 8, 2012 at 2:42 am

        40,000 denominations is an inflated lie, Alice. The number itself proves it by having only one significant figure making it a bogus number far from any sense of credibility. That is blatant inflammatory reasoning typical of your dishonest presentations. Yet, you called it truth.

        • admin December 8, 2012 at 10:00 am

          There are “more than” 40,000 denominations. You can call it an inflated lie, bogus, blatant inflammatory reasoning, or dishonest if you want. Because of cultural norms in communication and the impracticability of determining a precise number, it is acceptable for me to say 40,000 when it is actually more than that. When you nit pick me, you’re actually nit picking yourself, Lanny – “For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

          • Lanny A. Eichert December 8, 2012 at 1:56 pm

            Alice = typical of her dishonest presentations. Yet, she calls it truth.

            You and yours have no Absolute Truth, dear Alice, because you have no Source for it, having denied the only foundation: the perfect literal Holy Bible. You’ve manufactured your own god from your own ideas expecting to derive reverent status by using the Bible, while not believing or trusting it yourself. That’s deception. I expect you will claim the source of Absolute True is God Himself; and while that is perfectly true, you have NO way of knowing from God, except by the BIBLE. Yet I also expect you’ll object and say there is another way which is personal revelations given to you individually by god himself. I don’t grace you with respect of your god, because he is Satan as per John 8: 44. Don’t you see that you have NO Absolute Standard by which to judge such personal revelations as whether they are actually from God. I DO. The perfect literal Holy Bible contrasts your revelations as characteristically false since it closes its pages with a populated Lake of Fire without remedy. Therefore: Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come. … I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. {John 8: 21 & 24}

            He said “you cannot come” dear Alice and friends since you have no Absolute Truth. He said to all those you have loved who physically died without professing Christ, “You cannot come.” If you die IN your sins, “you cannot come.” Not ever.

            For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. {2 Corinthians 6: 2} NOW, dear people, not after you die. After you die there is NO salvation. The Lake of Fire is WITHOUT remedy. There is no judgment after the Great White Throne Judgment to reverse Jesus’ “then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” {Matthew 7: 23}

            Stop you madness, believe eternal torment, fear the consequences of your madness, flee to the real God in Christ for salvation from eternal torment.

            If the Bible is not perfectly trustworthy, then neither is God.

            • admin December 9, 2012 at 2:06 am

              I don’t deny that God uses the Bible to introduce Himself to people (this is true of me). I just deny that this is the only way God introduces Himself. The Bible is a useful tool that the Spirit of God uses to teach people truth. The Bible is trustworthy in this sense – God teaches us the difference between our attempts to attain relationship with Him and His perfect, literal, Holy (to borrow your words) ability to establish a relationship with us. Absolute Truth is Jesus Christ. He knows me, regardless of how imperfectly I know Him. That’s enough for me to have peace about any error on my part. I never claimed to be perfect or have absolute accurate knowledge of all spiritual truths. But I know the Truth, Jesus Christ, to the extent that He has chosen to reveal Himself to me. He is my Salvation, Who has said numerous times, “Do not fear.” I believe Him.

              • Lanny A. Eichert December 9, 2012 at 11:33 am

                Alice, you say, Absolute Truth is Jesus Christ, but since your bible isn’t perfectly trustworth, you have no trustworthy way of knowing Christ.

                • Patrick Strickland December 20, 2012 at 4:00 pm

                  Hi Lanny

                  I would have to cordially disagree with you on not having any trustworthy way of knowing Christ Jesus. Once you know He is in you and you know you are in Him you absolutely have an infallible way of knowing Jesus Christ.

                  In fact we are to examine ourselves and come to the place that we absolutely know He is in us or we are scripturaly considered as if we are reprobate.

                  2Co 13:5-6 KJV Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ IS IN YOU, except ye be reprobates? (6) But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

                  And Christ the anointing in us will teach us and guide us into all truth. This is the promise of God for all.

                  1Jn 2:20-28 KJV But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (21) I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth. (22) Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (23) Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. (24) Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. (25) And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. (26) These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. (27) But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (28) And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

                  Grace and peace Patrick

                  • Lanny A. Eichert December 30, 2012 at 1:45 am

                    Patrick, once you know WHO is in you? How are you going to know who he IS without a perfect literal Holy Bible?

                    Don’t you see that all you have is based on listening to spirits? Without a perfect Bible you have no way of knowing what kind of spirit it is that you “are hearing.”

                    Spiritualism is NOT Christianity. It is demonism.

                    • Patrick Strickland January 7, 2013 at 6:31 pm

                      Dear sir

                      Again with a straw man argument? I quote more scripture then you do in every post I make. What makes you think that I don’t believe and trust the bible? See the difference between you and me is I actually believe what He promised, and what he had written concerning His coming in us TO TEACH US HIS FATHER’S WORD. And because I believe Him I actually will not leave him alone till I actually apprehend the promise and experience Hearing Him speak to me and teach me what he intended. I actually know I am in the Father and in Jesus and that they are both in me because Christ has come into me and abides in me and His precious spirit is teaching me all things he wants me to know.

                      Joh 14:18-26 KJV I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. (19) Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. (20) At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (21) He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (22) Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? (23) Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. (24) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me. (25) These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. (26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

                      I am not listening to some demonic spirits without reading the bible. That is just your warped imagination getting the better of you. I do not have a devil. I am not into any form of spiritualism as you falsely claim. It is Christ Jesus and the Father in me who are teaching me, not some demon.

                      I am seeking THE GOD OF SCRIPTURE TO FULFILL HIS PROMISES TO TEACH ME what he actually meant by what he had written, I am not seeking the honor that comes from men, I am seeking the honor that comes only from God. I am not interested in the many contradictory doctrines that men teach concerning the written word; NONE OF THOSE ARE TRUTH. I am only interested in His doctrines which He teaches us because the God of truth will not lie to us and we can absolutely trust what He tells us to be true. Jesus said something similar and those pharisees listening to Him also claimed that he had a devil.

                      Joh 7:16-24 KJV Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. (17) If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. (18) He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. (19) Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? (20) The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? (21) Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. (22) Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. (23) If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? (24) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

                      A few chapters later a similar conversation also took place.

                      Joh 8:43-51 KJV Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. (44) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (45) And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. (46) Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? (47) HE THAT IS OF GOD HEARETH GOD’S WORDS: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. (48) Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? (49) Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. (50) And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. (51) Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

                      Again I remind you that His Sheep know His voice and a stranger they will not follow. That should be the normal Christian walk for all of us who are His sheep. Hearing the voice of our good shepherd and following wherever He leads. Voices of false Christs nor the voices of any demon masquerading as Christ we will not follow because they are strangers to His true sheep.

                      Jesus never said His word was literal Just the opposite He clearly said that His word was SPIRIT and LIFE; and it will take having the same spirit of God in us that inspired the writers of the scripture in order for us to actually understand what the spirit is saying. We must receive through faith the mind of Christ So that we may truly understand the thoughts of God concerning what scripture declares.

                      1Co 2:11-16 KJV For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

                      I find it quite interesting that when Paul admonished the Philippians church to let this mind be in you which was in Christ Jesus that almost immediately after he informed us that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord into the glory. Isaiah 45 tells us clearly that this confession God has sworn by His own name to do and it will absolutely happen that every knee will bow and every tongue will covenant swear seven times – confess that in Him they have righteousness and strength.

                      Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: (7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. (9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, into the glory of God the Father.

                      Without letting the mind of Christ function in us we will never understand that when Every knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord that everyone will be saved.

                      Just because you have never heard him teach you this does not mean it is not true and therefore in your opinion I must be listening to a demonic spirit. The traditions of men make most Christian’s men and women of little faith, and I can prove it easy enough. You see if we ask him to teach us and our faith does not waver we will get what we pray for. He will teach us. If we ask in faith for Him to teach us His voice He will, We will hear His voice. If we ask for Him to give us the baptism of the Holy spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues He will. If we ask anything according to His WILL he hears us and we know we HAVE whatsoever we ask for. That is a promise of God. If we ask for the anointing to teach us His word He will not give us a serpent to teach us. We know from scriptures that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED AND COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH and he want us to pray for it to come to pass, so if we pray according to His will then we are guaranteed by his scriptures and by the WORD OF THE LORD proceeding out of His mouth that we HAVE WHAT WE PRAYED FOR.

                      Jas 1:5-8 KJV If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (6) But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. (7) For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (8) A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

                      1Jn 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

                      1Ti 2:1-6 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

                      See the problem is that the traditions of men that teach hell is the eternal end for most of humanity, make it impossible for you or anyone who believes in it to pray in faith with nothing wavering the will of God for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. You simply cannot do it. You cannot pray the prayer of faith as you are told to do in scripture for all men to be saved because you absolutely do not believe that God really wants to and that it is actually His WILL TO SAVE ALL you pray for. The traditions of men make the word of God of none effect. And the proof is… Have you ever tried to pray for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth in faith with nothing wavering? Have you found it difficult to believe that God will actually save all men? Do you find it impossible to believe that He will actually do what you have prayed for according to His will? See you believe the traditions of men that have taught you concerning hell more then you believe the Word of the Lord concerning His will that he wants us to pray for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth, and that He will give us the petitions that we ask of Him. Your belief in hell is like leaven that poisons your ability to simply believe that you can have what you pray for as long as it is according to His will. You cannot pray the prayer of faith because the traditions of men have made it of none effect to you: You might want to see all men saved; You hope they will be saved; but you have no assurance that they will be saved. Because you believe that men are predetermined to go to hell and that it is God’s will to torture forever all who don’t accept him or who have never heard of Him for all eternity you can’t believe it is his will to save ALL MEN when you ask Him in faith. And the worst part is you know this is true and it aggravates you to know that you cannot pray the prayer of faith without wavering. This should be a clear indication and clue to you that spiritually something is very wrong, and that you have a double mind in this area of your faith towards God and that you are believing something that is destroying your faith In Him.

                      THE WONDERFUL THING IS BECAUSE OF WHAT IS WRITTEN IN SCRIPTURE AND HEARING HIS VOICE MAKING IT ALIVE TO ME I absolutely have full assurance and I Know that what I have prayed according to His WILL that I am guaranteed that what I prayed for according to His will for All men to be saved, that God will save ALL Men in His timing and in His divine plan and all men will come into the knowledge of His truth. I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that he shall accomplish it. I have scripture that guarantees I have what I petitioned Him for. God is no respecter of persons the same assurance and faith I have been given by Him He is more than willing to give to you the same faith and assurance in Him and His word. But I challenge you to try to pray the prayer of faith with nothing wavering see if what I am saying is not true.

                      Now if I am truly listening to a demonic voice how can I have fruit of the spirit in my life? Especially a faith that actually can pray for all men to be saved and does not waver at all which is more then your faith can do who are relying upon the perfect literal written bible? How can I produce the fruit of love and I do love you and pray God blesses you to come into the full knowledge of His truth if I am actually listening to a demon and yet you reading your perfect literal bible pray that I become cursed when I wished you a happy thanksgiving? I am no more listening to a demon then you are hearing God speak to you on this matter. One of us is producing fruit that is of God and one of us is not And I will leave it up to God to decide which is actually producing the fruit of the spirit.

                      Grace and peace from God our Father and His most blessed son Jesus Christ.

                      Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 9, 2013 at 3:52 am

                      Patrick, Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 22, 23}

                      See, you don’t believe the Holy Bible, not even the words of Jesus. I said you listen to spirits that lie to you, satanic spirits. Jesus cannot save everybody, because He told them to depart from Him. When? Jesus is teaching you “I never knew you.”

                      No straw man, not at all. Face it: what you are.

                    • Patrick Strickland January 21, 2013 at 3:03 pm

                      Thank you for taking the time to prove my point that you cannot pray the prayer of faith like Paul, James, John, and Jesus told you to do with nothing wavering. You have now proven my point fully. And have presented a scripture that you think contradicts God’s ultimate will for all his church to pray for. I will deal with that scripture more later in this post.

                      Now The scriptural promise concerning praying according to His will is absolutely useless for you and anyone who believes just like you do. If you pray anything according to His will He won’t hear you and He sure won’t give it to you at all because of what you believe about hell being the end for all men who do not follow Jesus. That is what you are ultimately claiming if praying according to His will WON’T PRODUCE THE RESULTS HE PROMISED IN HIS WORD i.e. GOD “WILL HAVE” ALL MEN SAVED AND COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH: this is something HE SPECIFICALLY WANTS US TO PRAY FOR WITHOUT DOUBTING. Your position destroys faith in God and removes any foundation you can stand upon for him to give you what you pray for as long as it is according to His will.

                      PRAYING FOR ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIS TRUTH IS DEFFINITLY HIS WILL FOR THE CHURCH to pray about. NOT BELIEVING that you can have what you pray for as long as it is according to The Fathers will, WILL MAKE YOU DOUBLE MINDED. Does that passage in I Timothy 2:3-8 SPEAK ABOUT THE FATHER’S WILL at all? If it does, and it most assuredly does, then we can know that if we pray anything according to His will he hears us and if he hears us we are guaranteed by scripture whatsoever we have prayed for we shall have it. NOW THE ONLY THING THAT WILL STOP YOU FROM ACTUALLY BELIEVING GODS WORD IS THE LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES THE TRADITIONS, AND DOCTRINES OF MEN YOU HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY YOUR DENOMINATION!!

                      If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, NOTHING WAVERING. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For LET NOT THAT MAN THINK THAT HE SHALL RECEIVE ANYTHING OF THE LORD. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
                      (Jas 1:5-8 KJV)

                      What is the wind that is tossing us? It is nothing less then every wind of doctrine that we hear preached from men. DOCTRINES OF MEN MAKE US DOUBLE MINDED

                      And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth BE NO MORE CHILDREN, TOSSED TO AND FRO, AND CARRIED ABOUT WITH EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, BY THE SLEIGHT OF MEN, AND CUNNING CRAFTINESS, WHEREBY THEY LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that YE HENCEFORTH WALK NOT AS OTHER GENTILES WALK, IN THE VANITY OF THEIR MIND, HAVING THE UNDERSTANDING DARKNED, BEING ALIENATED FROM THE LIFE OF GOD THROUTH THE IGNORANCE THAT IS IN THEM, BECAUSE OF THE BLINDNESS IN THEIR HEART: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. But YE HAVE NOT SO LEARNED CHRIST; IF SO BE THAT YE HAVE HEARD HIM, AND HAVE BEEN TAUGHT BY HIM, AS THE TRUTH IS IN JESUS: (Wow!!! Paul is saying the exact same thing I am to you that you have to hear Him for yourself, and that you have to be taught by Him.) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
                      (Eph 4:11-24 KJV)

                      Now back to more scriptures that discuss the prayer of faith with nothing wavering, the prayer of faith without doubting

                      And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, IF WE ASK ANYTHING ACCORDING TO HIS WILL, HE HEARETH US: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that WE HAVE THE PETITIONS THAT WE DESIRED OF HIM. (1Jn 5:14-15 KJV)

                      For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I will therefore THAT MEN PRAY EVERYWHERE, LIFTING UP HOLY HANDS, WITHOUT WRATH AND DOUBTING.
                      (1Ti 2:3-8 KJV)

                      For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and SHALL NOT DOUBT IN HIS HEART, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, BELIEVE THAT YE RECEIVE THEM, AND YE SHALL HAVE THEM.
                      (Mar 11:23-24 KJV)

                      Why take the time to pray FOR ALL MEN AS YOU ARE COMMANDED TO DO IN SCRIPTURES, if you don’t believe that you can ACTUALLY receive an answer to your prayers for them? Why pray without doubting for all men to be saved as the scripture demands that you do if you can’t actually pray without doubting? Talk about an exercise in futility. Jesus did not miss it when he declared that the traditions of men make the word of God of none effect.

                      Now to the verse you brought up to prove that God will not save all men. It does not prove that at all it does prove that many men who claim to know Him by just studying scriptures who have never heard him speak and are not doing what the Father shows them TO DO WHICH ARE WORKS HE IS ACTUALLY INVOLVED IN DOING IN THE WORLD AROUND THEM, but they are involved in doing what they want to do and they are asking God to bless that which he has never sanctioned for them to do: These men and women who assume they know God because they have studied a book and only have a literal understanding of scripture alone are going to get a big surprise just like many pharisees in Jesus day were surprised by what he thought of them and their traditions that made void the word of God. He will tell them depart from me all ye who work iniquity. This is God’s correction HIS WAKE UP CALL for all those who claim to know Him from just reading scriptures but actually have never established a LIVING relationship with Him. If they actually heard His voice then they would be doing what the Father wanted them to do. If they actually believed scriptures which they are searching daily thinking that in them they have eternal life they would have come to Jesus which they do testify of to have a relationship with Him who is eternal life. He tells all those who are working their own will and who call it God’s will to depart from him because they are working iniquity and never knew Him. This is not the final end for those he tells to depart from him as you falsely assume it is. This Event described in Matthew 7:22-23 occurs before ALL are gathered back into Him at the dispensation of the fulness of time. Eph 1:10 In order for ALL to be gathered back into him at the dispensation of the fulness of time as scripture clearly declares then all those He told to depart from him must repent then God will bring them back and teach them himself, He will gather them ALL back into Christ. This event in Matthew occurs before all are reconciled back into Him as scripture declares. col 1:20 Before all who have born the image of Adam, this very same ALL will bear the image of Christ Romans chapter 5 Before ALL CREATION is delivered out of the corruption of the world they have been subjected to, into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God. Romans chapter 8 Before the restitution of all things back into Christ acts 3:19-21. All these things must occur and they will as scripture declares.

                      But if you believe in hell none of them will ever occur since most men will be living in hell for all eternity. ALL will not be gathered into him, ALL will not be reconciled into him, ALL who have born the image of Adam will not bear the image of Christ, ALL OF CREATION will not be delivered out of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the Sons of God.

                      This is God’s wake up call to those who have never heard His voice. FOR THE TREES THAT are not producing his fruit. Only hearing His voice and obeying Him will allow anyone to enter the kingdom of heaven. The problem you have is not with what is written in scripture that I have presented to you it is in reality what you think they mean. And because you cannot refute my arguments scripturally you must resort to character assassination because you cannot imagine that God will actually teach anyone something concerning scripture that contradicts what your denomination teaches as truth; so because what I am telling you contradicts the gospel of hell which you believe the literal scripture teaches you; therefore in your mind you must conclude that I must be listening to a demon. Problem you have is I am producing the good fruit of the spirit which is faith without wavering and I do have the fruit of love for all men especially for those who disagree with me. If I was actually listening to a devil as you falsely assume I would not be producing any good fruit at all. I don’t believe in the doctrine of eternal hell just like you do and I can pray for all men without any doubt whatsoever to be saved Just like scripture demands that we should do. Do you honestly believe that God won’t answer that prayer which he has guaranteed to answer by His written scriptures? Furthermore, I know that God has heard my prayers and I will see all men saved because it is his will to save all men as scripture also declares. You believe in hell and you cannot believe that God will actually answer your prayers for all men to be saved. Which one of us is actually producing fruit THAT GOD THE FATHER WANTS FROM US?

                      A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
                      (Mat 7:18-21 KJV)

                      Every doctrine we believe will produce some kind of fruit in our lives. The doctrine of hell that is taught by men does produce a fruit, as you can tell by my example of praying for all men to be saved like scripture wants us to do, it literally destroys our ability to believe we can have what we pray for as long as it is according to God’s will: it produces a great doubt in us and causes us to waver not believing that HE WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. It ultimately destroys our ability to trust God’s word both what is written and what is spoken by His spirit. Talk about a nasty fruit. Unfortunately most of Christianity has bought into this doctrine and tradition of men and they do not realize just how much bad fruit they are actually producing.

                      That verse in Matthew 7: 22, 23 has nothing to do with me at all, because I teach that all have to hear the Father and obey what He shows us He is doing or we will not enter into the kingdom of heaven which is what Jesus told us to do in verse 21. Because of the holy ghost he has given to each of us who have accepted our kinsman redeemers sacrifice we can hear him and we can all be taught by God himself what he wants us to know. This should be the norm for all Christians. I live by what I teach others to do. God is not going to say I never knew you depart from me because I am talking about everyone having available the ability to have a living relationship with the Father and his Son. The norm for Christians should be to hear The Father and the Son for themselves individually. The norm for all Christians is to obey the anointing that is in them which should be teaching everyone the truth. Whether you believe it or not does not matter to me at all but I do know the good shepherd’s voice like he promised I would. I do know Him and another I will not follow. I DO BELIEVE THE BIBLE. I DO BELIEVE JESUS WORDS not just what is written upon a page but what His precious spirit says they mean. THE ONLY PROBLEM YOU HAVE WITH ME IS I JUST DON’T BELIEVE YOUR INTREPRETATION Of what you have been taught by men. Unlike you, I DO TRUST IN A LIVING GOD WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN ESPECIALLY ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE I TIM 4:10. I will be honest with you it shocked me to hear you clearly say that “JESUS CANNOT SAVE ALL MEN”. Your statement clearly contradicts what is written in scriptures by Paul and even Jesus own words. IN I Tim 4:10 it does not read that I trust in a living God who will not, who cannot save all men, but it clearly states I TRUST IN A LIVING GOD WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN ESPECIALLY ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Now these two proofs should be clear to even you that something is drastically wrong in what you believe to be truth.

                      I don’t believe in the IDOL MEN HAVE MADE OF JESUS WHICH CHRISTIANITY TEACHES AS TRUTH THAT CANNOT SAVE ALL MEN. Jesus is the savior of ALL MEN ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE, which is what scripture clearly declares and commands us to teach TO ALL MEN.

                      This saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.
                      (1Ti 4:9-11 VGNT)

                      He is not the torturer of most and the savior of only a few.

                      Many men think they can understand the things of the spirit with just their natural minds, without actually hearing Him teach them. Scripture unfortunately declares the exact opposite as truth natural man cannot understand the things of God without the spirit of God teaching them. Men are convinced that because they have a perfect literal bible they do not need to seek Him to hear his precious anointing teach them what he wants them to understand concerning what he actually wrote. God has given us the holy ghost the anointing for just that purpose so why ignore such a vital tool in truly understanding the truth of the word of the Lord?

                      I am someone who does tell the church that they can trust scriptures and that they can hear the voice of the good shepherd for themselves and that another they will not follow, I am one who is then accused falsely as having and listening to another- demons BY THOSE WHO EITHER HAVE NEVER OR RARELY HEARD GOD SPEAK. What a total lack of faith on your part in scripture and the LIVING GOD for even considering for one minute that if someone asks the Father to give them the holy spirit to teach and guide them into all truth that God would give that person who has asked a serpent to teach them. I serve a much more loving Father then you have ever though about. He would never give me or anyone for that fact a demon spirit when His children ask in faith nothing wavering for Him to give them the holy ghost to teach them what truth actually is. Now I must warn you to be very careful there dear sir you are making the very work of the holy spirit teaching us and leading us into all truth as nothing more than just the work of the devil, that is a serious offense to God and is exactly what the pharisees of old did to Jesus claiming that what Jesus did was actually the work of devils which it was not.

                      It is a rare individual who will actually seek the Father alone to teach Him what He actually meant by what he had written. I challenge you to become one of those rare individuals who will only seek the father to teach you His word.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 22, 2013 at 3:02 am

                      Patrick, the gospel of hell? Matthew 7: 22 & 23 is WHEN? As I wrote to Mary, they are DONE with earth living, so how then can they change their faith and conduct? They immediately depart into hell fire forever. The Gospel isn’t preached there.

                      Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 21 – 23}

                      What don’t you understand about: “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven”?

                      Those are the very words of Jesus Christ that you refuse to believe. How much more simply need I put it to you?

                    • Patrick Strickland January 31, 2013 at 2:29 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      You do realize that you are throwing up a smoke screen to get everyone eyes upon your false claim and off your lack of ability to actually do the word of God and pray the will of God for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth without doubting. Your claim is absolute false because I believe everything that Jesus said; I just do not believe your interpretation of them that your baptist denomination has taught you. You just are avoiding facing the issue I have brought up that is all you are doing.

                      You do realize that Matthew 7 does not say they they will “never” enter into the kingdom as you assume it says. It just says that they will not be allowed to enter because they are not doers of His will, and they do not know Him. Now because of the scriptures I will share with you I fully believe that it means that they will not be allowed to enter at that time, but that He fully intends for them to enter into the kingdom at a later time.

                      Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
                      (Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

                      See when you read verse 23 because of your belief in hell you add in your mind to the scripture what is not there; when it says “depart from me”, you read “depart from me and never return”. And like wise for the same reason you add “there will be some who will “never” enter into the kingdom of Heaven”; when the word “never” is not even in the scripture. You add to the scripture in your mind when you read them, what is not even there, simply because of what you believe.

                      In context Jesus was speaking to the all of the Jews present which included the pharisees. The pharisees pretended and assumed that they knew God because they studied scriptures and did many good works, but Jesus made it crystal clear in the gospel of John that they did not know God and were not doing His will at all; now if you want all of the scripture references to that point I could easily give you them if you want. Just let me know. The pharisees were totally convinced in their minds that they knew God and that they were following God. And there was nothing you could say or do that would prove to them any different. Many in the church are in the exact same boat. Sadly what they believed was not true at all.. Jesus was attempting to wake them up to the fact that they did not know God at all, and as long as they did not know HIM and were not doing His will, they were not going to enter into the kingdom. MEN CAN BECOME COMPLACENT BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY THINK THEY KNOW. THEY MISTAKE STUDYING ABOUT GOD AS ACTUALLY KNOWING GOD. They are absolutely not the same. So never make the mistake that they are. God must shake all that make that mistake up and wake them out of their complacency and show them that they do not know Him at all because they are not DOING THE WILL OF GOD, and the only way to do that is for those expecting to enter into the kingdom to be rudely woken up by telling them they do not know you so you have to depart. Now it is a scriptural fact for ALL JEWS that The new covenant guarantees that ALL will know Him so by having them depart into outer darkness he is setting them up to begin to seek Him and to repent of their lies, and to come to actually know Him so they can then enter into the kingdom as Jesus promised the pharisees. Now Jesus did say concerning the Pharisees that they will enter into the kingdom but not till after the harlots and the publicans enter first.

                      But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots GO INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD BEFORE YOU. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
                      (Mat 21:28-32 KJV)

                      In Romans 11:26 Scripture clearly declares that “ALL Israel will be saved” then you can rest assured that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. However earlier in the same chapter of Romans we find that the natural branches of the olive tree will be broken off because of unbelief. These natural branches included the pharisees who Jesus spoke to. Have you ever thought of what happens to the branches that are broken off? Why they died! All the pharisees that Jesus was talking to in his ministry WHO REJECTED HIM are now dead and buried, Then after death they stand before the Lord and he tells them that He never knew them, depart from me, ye who work iniquity. You have asked previously where is after death repentance in scripture well here it is. The branches that are dead after being told to depart from me ye who work iniquity, eventually they will repent, and believe God and will be grafted back into the olive tree FROM WHICH THEY CAME. Telling them to depart is where God is actually breaking off the natural branches of the olive tree. Now in order for the natural branches to be grafted back into the olive tree who is Christ they must repent, and believe Him and do the will of God. And as I stated before scripture guarantees that ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED All Israel will repent ALL ISRAEL, including the pharisees, will enter into the Kingdom. All the branches broken off because of unbelief will eventually be grafted back into the olive tree. Simply because The gifts and callings of God are without repentance. And God is WELL ABLE TO GRAFF THEM BACK INTO the olive tree WHEN THEY repent and believe.

                      Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, IF THEY ABIDE NOT STILL IN UNBELIEF, shall be graffed in: FOR GOD IS ABLE TO GRAFF THEM IN AGAIN. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL THESE, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And SO ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
                      (Rom 11:20-29 KJV)

                      God is no respecter of persons what he is going to do for natural Israel he will do for all who make up His body the spiritual Israel. And if those who are wild olive branches will not believe then they will also be broken off until they repent and God grafts them back in. Jesus declared that the kingdom of God is in us Luke 17:20,21.; and Paul declared that the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost Rom 14:17. The Holy Ghost is nothing less then the spirit of Christ coming and abiding in us John 14:14-23. In the dispensation of the fulness of time God will gather together into one ALL things into Christ who is the kingdom of GodEph1:10. If we do not learn to trust, and listen to the Holy Ghost then we will not enter into the kingdom of God, until we learn to trust and obey His voice, and what he is teaching us. But no man can come to Christ unless the Father draw- drag them to him. Part of the process of coming to Jesus Christ is being taught of the Father. If the father is not teaching you then there is no way you will come into the kingdom that is in you. In order for Him to teach you you have to actually know Him not just know about him. Thank God that He guarantees by scripture to teach ALL Men and every man who the Father will teach will come unto Christ Jesus; and that ALL MEN WILL KNOW HIM.

                      No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw(draw comes from the Greek word helkuo and literally means drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall BE ALL TAUGHT OF GOD. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
                      (Joh 6:44-45 KJV)

                      Which is part of the new covenant:

                      But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
                      (Jer 31:33-34 KJV)

                      Therefore will I set mine eye upon them for good, and will bring them back upon this land,—and will build them up, and not pull them down, and will plant them and not root them up; and WILL GIVE THEM A HEART TO KNOW ME, that I am Yahweh, So shall they become my people, And, I, will become their God; for they will return unto me with all their heart.
                      (Jer 24:6-7 Rotherham)

                      Jesus declared that when he died at the cross that he would drag all men unto himself.

                      And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw(the Greek word used to translate draw is helkuo and literally means drag) all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.
                      (Joh 12:32-33 KJV)

                      Being cast off is not a permanent state for the rest of time for those who hear God say depart from me, but is only part of the process to shock men awake that God has started for all men to come to actually know Him, and when they repent; and they will repent; then they get to know Him and will be allowed to enter into the kingdom… They thought they were going to be the first to enter the kingdom, because they studied the scriptures and did so many good things in His name: but they will be the last to enter.

                      See in your version which the denominations of men have taught you, and most of Christianity hold up as truth: you are playing one set of scriptures against another set. The one set dealing with hell get fulfilled and all scriptures that declare he is going to save and reconcile all men by bringing them into Christ don’t. As I have already proven to you because of what you believe it is now impossible for you to pray the prayer of faith without doubting for God’s will to save all men and bring them into the knowledge of truth and actually expecting Him to answer. All scripture must and is going to be fulfilled not just what you pick and choose to be fulfilled. Otherwise you are faced with the fact that your God is nothing but a liar promising to save all men but either refusing to do it or not having the power to do it. Any God who cannot save is nothing but an idol.

                      In what I believe which the spirit of God has taught me;( and it does not matter if you do not believe that or not) Both sets of scriptures get fully and completely fulfilled: God judges men but eventually all men are saved; God declares for men to depart because they do not know Him, but when they do repent and come to know Him, and do His Will, and they get to enter into the kingdom and become graffed back into the olive tree. All men get saved just like scripture declares. All men get judged. All men in the dispensation of the fulness of time are gathered into Christ. All scripture gets fulfilled and the contradictions your version is faced with don’t exist. And I can pray God’s will in absolute faith without doubting one bit and I can fully expect Him to answer my prayer. There is not one scripture that does not get fully fulfilled in what I believe. I can’t even remotely say the same for your version you have accepted as truth.

                      Only those who DO His will will enter into the kingdom of God, Not those who are not doing His will. If you will pray anything according to His will He will hear you and if He hears you you will have what you pray for. This is a promise of God found in scripture. It is Gods will for you and all Christians to pray without doubting for ALL men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. And when you become a doer of His will and do it Then you can fully expect the Father to answer that prayer which is clearly according to his determined will in scripture.

                      Ezekiel 44 even declares that the Levites that teach lies get to minister in the sanctuary to the people but they do not get to enter into HIS PRESENCE to minister to Him. But the priests after the order of Zadok do. Zadok is a type and shadow of the Melchizedek priesthood; because the word Zadok literally means just, to be right, to be righteous. But the priests the pharisees are still there ministering for God.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 31, 2013 at 7:55 pm

                      Patrick, never is so in the text.

                      And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 23}

                    • Patrick Strickland February 4, 2013 at 6:15 pm

                      Hi Lanny this is what I said (read the context very carefully):

                      “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
                      (Mat 7:21-23 KJV)

                      See when you read verse 23 because of your belief in hell you add in your mind to the scripture what is not there; when it says “depart from me”, you read “depart from me and never return”. And like wise for the same reason you add “there will be some who will “never” enter into the kingdom of Heaven”; when the word “never” is not even in the scripture. You add to the scripture in your mind when you read them, what is not even there, simply because of what you believe.”

                      Now I do Thank y0u Lanny for pointing out that “never” is in verse 23; however as you good and well know I was not talking about “I never Knew you”, which is in scripture. But I was referring to what you added in your mind when you read scripture this way, “depart from me and ‘never’ return”. The phrase “never return” is not there, except in your mind. There is a big difference between “I never knew you” which is in scripture; and adding the phrase “never return”, which is not there, when you read scripture. However in context of what I said when I said: “And like wise for the same reason (Your belief in Hell) you add “there will be some who will “never” enter into the kingdom of Heaven”; when the word “never” is not even in the scripture.”, I was referring ONLY TO WHAT YOU ADD IN YOUR MIND to scripture when you imagine that the phrase “never return” or “never enter” is there, even though neither phrase are found in Matthew 7: 21-23

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 5, 2013 at 12:36 pm

                      Patrick does not believe Jesus meant, “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” because he thinks He meant to say “when they die.” Reader, you see, just because He didn’t add those words, in his opinion, doesn’t mean that’s not what He meant. You see, with the addition of those words he wants you to think they can enter the kingdom by doing the will of Jesus’ Father in their after-life. Yet that latter part of Matthew 7: 21 has no indication of a change in behavior, but rather speaks of continuous consistent behavior of faith and obedience to God’s will. The entire compound sentence spoken by Jesus intends to distinguish the absolute difference between two kinds of persons: those excluded from heaven and those who will enter. The will of Jesus’ Father is that you believe His words. He flat out tells you that every one does not enter the kingdom.

                      Since believing Jesus’ spoken words means there are people permanently excluded from the kingdom of heaven, Jesus doesn’t save everybody.

                      I want to remind you of verse 23 where Jesus says, “depart from me” and does not add the words “for a few ages until you start believing in your after-life.” The absence of those words means Jesus meant forever.

                      Your condition at physical death cements your eternal destiny. Either you believe now or you’re eternally doomed. There is no after-life repentance unto salvation. Jesus declared, “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” so please don’t be one of them.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 9, 2013 at 6:52 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      You are absolutely free to add those phrases to that passage in Matthew 7 all you want to, when you read it. I won’t judge you for doing that. But don’t be surprised at all when you CANNOT PRAY in total faith without doubting the will of God as you are supposed to FOR ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME INTO THE knowledge of the TRUTH.

                      Your belief in hell destroys your ability to believe and act upon His will as declared in scripture as God wants you to. Remember God’s promise to give you what you pray for as long as it is according to His will.

                      1Jn 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, WE NOW WE HAVE THE PETITIONS THAT WE DESIRED OF HIM.

                      SO IF WE CAN FIND ANY SCRIPTURE WHERE HIS WILL IS CLEAR THEN WE CAN PRAY THAT PASSAGE AND WE CAN FULLY EXPECT THE FATHER TO ANSWER IT because he hears us. Verse 4 is clear on what is God’s will is…GOD WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED, so if you pray God’s will then you can fully expect because of His promise in scripture for Him to give you what you pray for.

                      1Ti 2:1-8 I exhort therefore, THAT, FIRST OF ALL, SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERCESSIONS, AND GIVING OF THANKS, BE MADE FOR (HOW MANY MEN?) ALL MEN; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) WHO WILL HAVE (HOW MANY MEN? Now is there anything in the context that modifies ‘all men’ to be less than every man ever born? Absolutely none!!) ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND COME INTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) WHO GAVE HIMSELF A RANSOM FOR ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. (7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (8) I WILL THEREFORE THAT MEN PRAY EVERY WHERE, LIFTING UP HOLY HANDS, WITHOUT WRATH AND DOUBTING.

                      Death does not cement where you are going to spend eternity. if it does that makes God completely untrustworthy. If one person goes to hell forever then God lied when He swore by HIS OWN NAME AND COMMANDED IN ISAIAH ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO LOOK AND BE SAVED… EVERY KNEE IS GOING TO BOW AND EVERY TONGUE IS GOING TO CONFESS THAT IN HIM THEY HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH.

                      Not only does the doctrine of men concerning hell destroy faith in God’s promises it destroys trust in God’s sworn word. It destroys our trust in the word of righteousness tha goes out of his mouth that will not return to him without being fulfilled. It destroys man’s ability to do His will. So check a mirror dear sir because Jesus said that only those who DO HIS WILL GET TO ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. and as long as you are not able to pray in faith NOTHING WAVERING for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth then you are not DOING THE WILL OF THE FATHER. But don’t worry God has sworn BY HIMSELF AND HE IS NOT A MAN THAT HE SHOULD LIE that eventually every knee will bow and every tongue will confess -covenant swear that IN HIM they have RIGHTEOUSNESS and strength. Now scripture declares that the Kingdom of God is not meat or drink but RIGHTEOUSNESS , PEACE, AND JOY (Where?) IN THE HOLY GHOST. God’s word will not return unto him void but it shall accomplish what He sent it to do, He did not say that the his word is going to accomplish our opinion of what we think it will do but what HE actually sent it to do. He sent His word out in righteousness and He has commanded ALL not some but ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH TO LOOK AND TO BE SAVED. Now to expect anything less then that to be saved is foolishness.

                      There was a time I could accept your view point concerning Hell in fact I have made the same plea many times in the past but now I know the truth of what God truly wants and there is absolutely no way I could ever go back and preach that lie ever again. See I have learned to actually trust in a God WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE. Your doubt or unbelief in that scriptural fact will not affect what God Has declared HE IS

                      Rom 3:3-4 KJV For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? (4) God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 11, 2013 at 12:24 am

                      Patrick, your statement: “God’s word will not return unto him void but it shall accomplish what He sent it to do” ALSO APPLIES to Jesus’ words, “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” and “depart from me, ye that work iniquity” and “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat”. So, you should see that Jesus does NOT save everybody.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 14, 2013 at 12:53 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Matthew 7 has come out of God’s mouth and I absolutely agree that as a Word of God it shall come to pass and not return to him void but it shall accomplish exactly WHAT HE SENT IT TO DO. Not what you or I interpret it to do; but it will accomplish exactly what He sent it to do. God is not obligated to keep our opinion of what we add when we read the scriptures: he is not duty-bound to go along with what we think he sent his word to do. He is only obligated to keep His word as He sent it out and as He actually intended for it to be accomplished. Now it is imperative for each of us to individually seek Him to teach us exactly what he meant by what He had written. We must each of us hear His voice, we must each be taught by Him. and if you do not hear his voice then there is absolutely no way you can have true biblical faith that has no doubt whatsoever attached to it. If you do not hear Him teach you the truth there is absolutely no way you will ever believe the truth of what he sent his word to do. If you do not hear him teach you His word then you will fall for every wind of doctrine that men teach. Hell is nothing but a wind of doctrine that men teach and unfortunately much of the church accepts as truth which corrupts His word and hides God’s true purpose for all men.

                      Now with that said I will answer your question. No I absolutely cannot see that God is going to torture most forever and ever and save only a few. See the one point you keep ignoring and purposefully forgetting is that Isaiah 45 is also a word of God that has come out of his mouth and not only does it include the promise and command for all the ends of the earth to look and BE SAVED but it includes the fact that it has come out of his mouth in righteousness and shall not return to him and also more importantly it includes his sworn name that what he said will absolutely come to pass and is now based upon his immutable counsel to show the heirs of his promise that he cannot lie. NOW WHO ARE THE HEIRS OF THE PROMISE TO SAVE ALL MEN? Why ALL the ends of the earth who are commanded to look and be saved. Now ask your self if God commands all the ends of the earth to look and BE saved who will resist that command. If God swears by Himself that every knee will bow and every tongue will covenant swear that in Him they will have righteousness and strength who will not covenant swear that in Him they have righteousness and strength? No one!!! Will God EVER stop short of having all men saved? Absolutely not!!!

                      Heb 6:17 KJV Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

                      Do you have any idea what immutability is and what it means?

                      ἀμετάθετος ametathetos
                      From G1 (as a negative particle) and a derivative of G3346; unchangeable, or (neuter as abstract) unchangeability: – immutable (-ility).

                      Ametathetos is made up of two words “a” as in alpha when used as a prefix makes the following word a negative; and the word metatithēmi which means to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: – carry over, change, remove, translate, turn. So ametathetos means Not transferable, not transportable, not exchanged, not changeable, not pervertable, cannot be removed, cannot be turned.

                      According to Websters dictionary Immutability means:
                      IMMUTABIL’ITY, n. [L. immutabilitas; in and mutabilis, mutable, from muto, to change.]
                      Unchangeableness; the quality that renders change or alteration impossible; invariableness. Immutability is an attribute of God.

                      According to Websters dictionary Immutable means:
                      IMMU’TABLE, a. [L.immutabilis; in and mutabilis.]invariable; unalterable; not capable or susceptible of change.

                      By God swearing with His name, God has now made the salvation of all men invariable, not pervertable, unalterable, not capable or susceptible to any change or impossible to alter. What God swears to is now Immutable and He will absolutely completely and fully accomplishes it.

                      See you are playing two sets of scriptures against each other. The one set judgment for all in your eyes supersedes and takes precedence in your mind over any and all of His promises to save all men. And literally makes null and void any chance for all men to be saved. If one person goes to hell forever then God promise for all the ends of the earth to look and be saved will return to him void but it shall absolutely NOT accomplish what he sent it to do. Can you not see the unresolvable contradiction you have created by holding the position that you do?

                      Because of how He phrased Isaiah 45 and with how much care he took in establishing the fact it came out of his mouth in righteousness and will not return, and swear by His name making it immutable and impossible to alter – that it, what he has sworn by his name will come to pass; any verse you can find with this set of promises attached to it takes precedence as something that will be fulfilled over any other verse in the bible that does not include both statements. I need to point out to you that there is not one verse in Matthew 7 that contains both promises clearly attached to them. In fact there is not one other verse in the whole of the bible that contains both promises in the same exact arrangement that establishes the absolute certainty of its fulfillment as Isaiah 45 does. So this makes Isaiah 45 very special in God’s scheme. It is the center, the core, the very foundation that God builds all His hopes, promises, plans, and judgments around. The fulfillment of Isaiah 45 is an unequivocal absolute certainty in God’s eyes. God’s very own character is now on the line – Isaiah 45 must be fulfilled. If it is not fulfilled then God can only be considered a liar!! Since all liars have their place in the lake of fire will God cast himself into the lake of fire?

                      In your view the judgment verses are fulfilled and all the many verses concerning the salvation of all men are not fulfilled. Not every word that has come out of His mouth will return to him Not every word will be fulfilled. Not every word will accomplish what he sent it to do. God becomes a liar and a failure of epic proportions; and you can forget about God being trust worthy: because if he cannot be trusted to keep what he has put his name to and has sworn by his name to do, then there is absolutely no promise in all of scripture you can absolutely rely upon him to keep.

                      In my view all the judgment verses get fulfilled and ALL the salvation of ALL verses get fulfilled. God becomes completely trustworthy in all of his promises. God judges all and he has mercy upon all just as scripture declares.

                      Rom 11:32-33 KJV For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. (33) O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

                      God will save all men and all of His judgments are for the purpose of destroying all that hinders every man from coming to the place where we are all saved. All God’s judgments are for the purpose of bringing us into the victory he has sworn to bring all men into.

                      Mat 12:17-20 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, (18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. (19) He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. (20) A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till HE SEND FORTH JUDGMENT INTO VICTORY.

                      Now when you go to the passage from Isaiah you learn that His judgments are unto truth.

                      Isa 42:1-3 KJV Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. (2) He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. (3) A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth JUDGMENT UNTO TRUTH.

                      ALL HIS JUDGMENTS ARE TO BRING US INTO TRUTH. Jesus said that he was the way the truth and the life no man can come to the Father except through Him. Judgment brings us INTO Jesus Christ, the TRUTH, and the victory he purchased for all of mankind at the cross. THIS IS AN OLD TESTAMENT WITNESS AND VERIFICATION OF EPH 1:10

              • Lanny A. Eichert December 9, 2012 at 11:54 am

                Alice, your Absolute Truth, Jesus Christ, demonstrated and taught absolute trust in the Scriptures. Don’t you think accepting Jesus as Absolute Truth but not the Bible is a contradiction? How old do you think the Scriptures were that He certified? How many times were they hand-copied from their original authorships? How accurately did they predict His coming into the world and His redemptive ministry? Perfectly fulfilled prophecies that we even celebrate this Christmas season of the year? Why do you “hedge” to trust the Holy Bible completely? Don’t you think that if He thought them trustworthy all that time He’d certainly know they’d be trustworthy another two thousand years into the future? Do I need to remind you how He spoke of the future accuracy of the Scriptures?

                Jesus, but not the Bible?

                • Patrick Strickland December 20, 2012 at 4:20 pm

                  I am not going to speak for alice

                  But as for me just searching the scriptures does not lead one to eternal life. You must come to Jesus Christ and establish a relationship with Him.

                  Joh 5:37-40 KJV And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. (38) And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. (39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. (40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

                  It takes both the letter and the spirit to make the word alive. If we just have the letter of the word written upon a page that will kill us. 2 cor 3 But if we have intimate relationship with the spirit of God who is trying to speak to us and is trying to explaining- interpretate His living word for us then the letter written upon a page becomes life unto us. If we do not hear his voice then we are as the pharisees of old only searching the scriptures but never coming to Christ who is our life. You got to remember the pharisees who Jesus was talking to who memorized the scripture but who, Jesus clearly told them that they did not Have HIS WORD abiding in them.

                  WOW think about that for a while Lanny. Memorized scriptures does not equate to having HIS WORD ABIDING in you.

                  Jesus is the Word of God and you must get to know Him in you or you do not have eternal life. Jesus defined eternal life this way:

                  Joh 17:3 KJV And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

                  It is all about having a intimate one on one relationship with Jesus and the Father in you, Not about agreeing with men’s opinion about what they think the letter upon a page means. That is eternal life and nothing less then that will satisfy me.

                  Grace and Peace Patrick

                  • Lanny A. Eichert December 30, 2012 at 1:31 am

                    Patrick, you’re evading the issue of the perfection of the pen and ink Word of God, the Holy Bible. You cannot {are unable} to have a relationship with the Christ of God without getting Him from the perfect literal Holy Bible, because when your bible is not perfect all you’ll get is a false christ with whom to have a relationship; and that’s what you guys have.

                    • Patrick Strickland January 7, 2013 at 6:20 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Let me first say that I study the bible every day, And that I have over 50 different translations that I use to study out of. I believe the Christian Scriptures, the 66 books commonly called the Bible, are the most valuable writings in the world. They contain the gospel of Jesus Christ. They contain wisdom one will not find in any other book in the world. The Scripture are definitely God breathed and inspired, but translations from the original languages can carry the translators biases and errors. Furthermore traditions of men can place wrong interpretations and definitions on the meaning of the original words. We must not just take any man’s opinion of what they think the word says as actually being the word of God. But the anointing in us will witness to us when something said by man is actually truth. It takes searching the scriptures and seeking Him diligently to reveal their true meaning to find out what God has actually meant and has concealed therein.

                      Pro 25:2 CLV It is the glory of Elohim to conceal a matter, And the glory of kings to investigate a matter.”
                      Pro 25:2 Rotherham The glory of God, is to conceal a thing, but, the glory of kings, is to search out a thing.

                      Hearing God teach us what he meant by what he had written is not an excuse to throw out the bible and never search it again, NO the exact opposite is true The anointing will open up many things that you have never seen with your natural mind but were there in the scripture all the time. The more God teaches me the more I dig deeper into the scriptures.

                      Now I would like to know how am I evading the issue of the perfection of the pen and ink Word of God when Paul Himself tells us plainly that we are the epistles of God written with the spirit of the living God and that what is written upon a page without the spirit quickening it to us and making it alive in us is nothing but a letter that will kill us; it is called for a reason the ministry of death and condemnation. It is clear that there is glory there but it is only a passing glory. That in this regard this ministry of death has no glory whatsoever when compared to the unlimited never ending glory found in the spirit in Christ Jesus.

                      2Co 3:2-11 KJV Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: (3) Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. (4) And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: (5) Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; (6) Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (7) But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: (8) How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? (9) For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. (10) For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. (11) For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

                      When Paul sat at the feet of Gamaliel and learned the exactness of the Jewish religion there, which was the Law, he learned the letter of the word of God as the pharisees taught it, and when later he was confronted with the early Christians after the death of Christ he then persecuted and killed all those who threatened the religion he had studied so diligently by the letter of the word, at the feet of men. But after the Damascus road incident where He actually met Jesus Christ and was knocked off His horse and blinded by His glorious appearance, he changed his methods and did not seek any man to teach him the “Word of God” but he went into the deserts of Arabia and sought Jesus to teach him what to do and say. Paul clearly says that what he taught was by the spirit of revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, the revelation of His SON IN HIM, and no man taught him what he knew.

                      Gal 1:11-18 KJV But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (12) For I NEITHER RECEIVED IT OF MAN, NEITHER WAS I TAUGHT IT, BUT BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. (13) For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (14) And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. (15) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, (16) TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (17) Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. (18) Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

                      Paul tells us in his epistle to the Corinthians that he is our example of following Christ Jesus, and we are to follow Him as he follows Christ Jesus.

                      1Co 11:1 KJV Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

                      Paul told us clearly how he came to understand scriptures He first studied at the feet of men and then oppressed and stamped out all who did not line up to what he believed was true. But after the revelation of Jesus Christ in him there is no record of him doing that ever again. He sought the Lord to teach him what the scriptures actually meant, and he did not rely upon his understanding of what he thought they meant by what Gamaliel taught him concerning the exact manner of the Law. Jesus lived his life seeking and doing only what he heard the Father say and do. Paul after his run in with Jesus sought to do the very same thing, He sought God to teach him His Word and he spoke what the Father revealed to him, and he did what the Father wanted him to do. God is no respecter of men what he has done for one he will do for another. If we will follow the example set before us by Jesus and Paul we can seek the Father to teach us and to show us what to say and do. God is more than willing to show each of us His glory, and to teach each of us what to say and what to do in every area of our lives if we will only let Him. All we have to do is ask Him. Our loving Father will not give us a false christ if we ask him to reveal His Son in us The true Christ the true anointing that will teach us and guide us into all truth.

                      Luk 11:9-13 KJV And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? (12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? (13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: HOW MUCH MORE SHALL YOUR HEAVENLY FATHER GIVE YOU THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THEM THAT ASK HIM?

                      Just so that you know I have asked him more then once for this very thing, and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did not give me a serpent when I asked for His precious anointing to teach me. He gave me just what I asked for.

                      Lanny do not confuse studying a book where you can read about what Jesus did as actually knowing Him and having a true relationship with Him. You will never meet the real Jesus Christ through just studying what is written upon a page alone. You can come to know many things about Him In fact, sadly, you can even form a wrong opinion about who He is and what He did, by just learning what men have to say about what is written about Him. Don’t get me wrong You can learn many great and wonderful things from studying scripture but what ever you learn if you do not seek God to quicken you to His understanding of what truth actually is, then you will eventually do what Paul did you will oppress and try to “verbally kill” or eventually even try to “literally kill” all who do not believe scripture exactly like you do. History is filled with stories of religious men killing all who did not accept what they recognized and believed to be truth because of what they learned at the feet of other men. The Crusades and The Inquisition are just two of many examples. During the Dark ages, even Martin Luther who God used to reawaken the church to the message of grace, killed and persecuted those who opposed his views. You can have a revelation of God in one area of your understanding, just like Luther did, yet still cling to the traditions of men in the rest of your understanding about what is written in the scripture. Learning scripture just by the letter what men falsely call “the word of God” will produce a fruit all right: when faced with an opposing view it will produce the fruit of self righteousness, a holier then thou attitude, slander and murder. This fruit is not of God. But learning from the revelation of His Son in you will produce the fruit of the spirit which is love, joy, peace, meekness, faith, and all desire to persecute others with different views of scripture will pass from out of you and you will instead pray for them that they will be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth. Which is what I am doing for you. Check yourself what fruit are you actually reproducing for all men to see?

                      Scripture clearly declares that The True Word of God is what is proceeding out of His mouth. The True Word of God is Christ. Anything less than that is deception and will not produce life in anyone.

                      If you do not seek Him to reveal His son in you then you do not have the true word of God at all abiding in you, but just a mental agreement with what you think is written upon a page, that some man somewhere taught you, which in reality is the letter that will kill you. The letter will produce condemnation in you for what others believe especially if what they believe contradicts what you accept as truth. And with what measure you judge others you will be judged with the same exact judgment BECAUSE BELIEVE IT OR NOT YOU ARE GUILTY OF DOING THE VERY SAME THINGS YOU JUDGE OTHERS FOR. This is something built into the word and no one has to stand up and say I judge you. As you judge others the very same measurement of judgment you used on others is automatically poured out into your life.

                      Rom 2:1 KJV Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
                      Mat 7:1-5 KJV Judge not, that ye be not judged. (2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (3) And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (4) Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (5) Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 9, 2013 at 4:00 am

                      Patrick, the Holy Bible, by means of all the fragments found, has been accurately reconstructed as originally penned, so that there is no disputing its original language text to the spelling of every word. The many translations into other languages, as many as there are in each language, the readers of their language have sufficient versions to discern the correct meaning of any sentence of Scripture. Why do you have so little faith in God to preserve His Word from error for His saints? Don’t you see that God has kept His Holy Bible perfectly accurate in its paper and ink form? No, you don’t, because you require a spirit to aid in the interpretation of it and will not let the words stand on their own. FIRST, before the Holy Spirit makes known to God’s saints the meaning of each individual word and the meaning of the whole text, the pen and ink text must be perfectly accurate in their original text as originally penned by God’s holy writers. Don’t you see that the Holy Spirit must use a HOLY text if He is to interpret God’s Holy Bible to God’s saint? You, in addition, make God’s saints the written word of God as if His Holy Bible cannot exist without them. Every word of the paper and ink Holy Bible exists perfectly apart from what men do with it.

                      Patrick is NOT spelled P-a-u-l, my dear man, so stop trying to get revelations from God. He finished His Holy Bible.

                    • Patrick Strickland January 21, 2013 at 3:06 pm

                      Dear Lanny:

                      We could get involved in a rather lengthy discussion on textural criticism if you want: but I prefer to avoid that. They usually tend to destroy ones faith more then they actually build up one in Christ which is what I am actually trying to do. But I will say just a few short things that you failed to mention about the original manuscripts. One being that of the over 6000 manuscripts in the original languages that exist, fragments or not, that many if not most differ from each other. Many of the differences between manuscripts are minor, others are major. Some Minor differences are spelling and do not affect theology at all. The Major differences involve added words or missing words and even changed words and phrases that can change doctrine. I just wanted to point out that the differences do exist. Two there are three major Greek manuscripts today compiled from all of the many manuscripts that exist. The Textus Receptus – where we get the King James version: The Robinson-Pierpont Byzantine text: and the Westcott Hort. Each of these three compiled versions differ from each other. There are some minor differences and there are some major differences when compared to each other. There are even a few rare differences that I believe that the Holy spirit had inspired both to bring out greater truth but without the Holy spirit showing you them you would never accept that.

                      Let me give you one example from the Textus Receptus and the Westcott Hort that represents that last sentence. In Revelation 1:6 the phrase “And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father” in the Textus Receptus reads:

                      καιG2532 CONJ εποιησενG4160 V-AAI-3S ημαςG1473 P-1AP βασιλειςG935 N-APM καιG2532 CONJ ιερειςG2409 N-APM τωG3588 T-DSM θεωG2316 N-DSM καιG2532 CONJ πατριG3962 N-DSM αυτουG846 P-GSM αυτωG846 P-DSM.

                      The Westcott Hort reads:

                      καιG2532 CONJ εποιησενG4160 V-AAI-3S ημαςG1473 P-1AP βασιλειανG932 N-ASF ιερειςG2409 N-APM τωG3588 T-DSM θεωG2316 N-DSM καιG2532 CONJ πατριG3962 N-DSM αυτουG846 P-GSM αυτωG846 P-DSM

                      The Westcott Hort literally reads “And hath made us a kingdom – priests to his God and Father” which would go with what scripture declares in Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation….

                      I believe that both readings are absolutely correct We are kings and priests and God’s kingdom which he rules over. I would not insist upon one over the other. But I would bring out both understandings when teaching that verse and the related verse in revelation 5:10 which is translated the same exact way they are in Revelation 1:6 in their respective Greek versions.

                      However the majority of the major differences I would not accept as God inspired. But I believe that they came from man’s manipulation, either accidentally or intentional, which ever way they came and only God truly knows which, they are there in print for all to search out if they want to take the time to search. And the only way to come to the truth concerning those major differences as to which Greek version is actually God inspired and which is not is to ask the Holy spirit to teach you the truth.

                      With all the differences that are in the the different Greek manuscripts and then all the translational errors into our language that exist: I personally would never claim that any one version translated into the English language was the perfect literal word of God. I do believe that there is enough material out there that we can come with much study and the aid of the holy spirit teaching us to a perfect spiritual word of God.

                      Lanny you also said:

                      “Don’t you see that God has kept His Holy Bible perfectly accurate in its paper and ink form? No, you don’t, because you require a spirit to aid in the interpretation of it and will not let the words stand on their own.”

                      Actually Lanny I don’t require “a spirit” to aid in the interpretation of the written word. I require “The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Jesus Christ, and the Father Himself IN me” to aid in the interpretation of the paper and ink written scripture. Hey, as you already know His aid in teaching us the truth is something promised in many places in scripture and is available to all who can believe it. I simply am one who does believe what is written and I am experiencing The Holy Spirit teaching me just as He is supposed to. Why should I ignore a covenant right so clearly promised in scriptures for all for His Spirit to aide us in truly understanding the word of God? Just because you do not want to exercise your covenant right with God, does not mean that I am going to avoid relying upon Him teaching me truth? God is no respecter of persons what he is doing for me He can and will do for you, All you have to do is ask Him to teach you.

                      You do realize that the Bible has more than one level to it there is a literal level and there is a spiritual level. If I was only going to read the scriptures at just the literal level alone then I would not need any one to teach me what it means. My natural literal mind could figure it out. Unfortunately just reading it at that level will not cause me or anyone for that fact to become quickened by His Spirit. Anyone reading at just that level will never become partakers of His glory. But there is a deeper spiritual level available for all men to understand; However as scripture clearly declares the natural man cannot understand the deeper things of the Spirit at all, without His precious Spirit teaching us. By relying upon His Spirit to teach us we are quickened into life by His precious Spirit.

                      Lanny has also said:

                      You, in addition, make God’s saints the written word of God as if His Holy Bible cannot exist without them.

                      Do you not understand Lanny the new covenant at all? The literal bible exists primarily to points us to having a living relationship with Jesus Christ and through that relationship we are becoming the living Word of God just like Jesus is. I john 4:17 tell us,” … that as He is so are we in this world”. God is making us just like his Son who is The WORD OF GOD. God is taking what is written upon a page and He is writing it upon our hearts and upon our minds. The literal bible contains a record of how the true Son of God Jesus acted towards others so that we may know how we should act towards others as God writes upon our hearts and minds His living word not with ink but with the spirit of the living God. This is how we become able ministers of the Spirit and not of the letter, for the letter killeth but the Spirit gives life. You cannot give life to other unless you become a living Word of God. And without the Holy spirit that God has given to us teaching us and writing upon our hearts and minds just what the Lord actually meant by what he had written upon a page that won’t happen at all. We could study the bible all day long and if the spirit doesn’t write it upon our hearts and minds at all then all we have to give to others is nothing but just death and condemnation of the letter just like the Pharisees did to Jesus.

                      For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. (Heb 8:10-11 KJV)

                      But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jer 31:33-34 KJV)

                      For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Heb 10:14-17 KJV)

                      And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Eze 11:19-20 KJV)

                      Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. (Eze 36:25-30 KJV)

                      Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. (2Co 3:2-6 KJV)

                      Lanny has said:

                      “Patrick is NOT spelled P-a-u-l, my dear man, so stop trying to get revelations from God He finished His Holy Bible. “

                      Why stop trying to get revelations from God just because you think we have a finished Holy bible? Where in scripture does it say that we must stop seeking the spirit of revelation of his son in us because He finished His holy Bible? I have searched the scriptures from front to back and have never read anything like that… In fact dear sir I can’t find even one passage that says that we must stop seeking for the revelation of His dear son in us once he finished the holy scripture. However, Scripture declares that Paul prayed for others that they should be given the spirit of wisdom and revelation: so if he prayed for the Ephesians, we as Christians should pray for the spirit of wisdom and revelation for others and for ourselves.

                      Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the SPIRIT OF WISDOM AND REVELATION IN THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and WHAT THE RICHES OF THE GLORY OF HIS INHERITANCE IN THE SAINTS, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, (Eph 1:16-19 KJV)

                      CHRIST THE SON OF GOD MUST BE BIRTHED IN US AND REVEALED THROUGH THE REVELATION OF THE SPIRIT IN US.

                      My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you, (Gal 4:19 KJV)

                      But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but BY THE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST. For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, TO REVEAL HIS SON IN ME, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: (Gal 1:11-16 KJV)

                      There is an interesting story that occurs in the gospel of Luke at the birth of Jesus that tells us that Jesus is going to be revelation an unveiling a disclosure to the Gentiles.

                      And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A LIGHT TO LIGHTEN THE GENTILES (Literally you could read it as “A light for the REVELATION of the Gentiles”) , and the glory of thy people Israel.
                      (Luk 2:25-32 KJV)

                      Revelation is defined as an unveiling, a taking off the cover, a disclosure. Paul had many things to say about the revelation of Jesus Christ one scripture where the Greek word apokalupsis which is translated as revelation is found is mistranslated as the coming of our lord Jesus Christ. And many assume falsely that this is speaking about His second coming. No this revelation of Jesus Christ… this coming of Christ we all should be waiting for is His coming in us His unveiling in us, causing us to be conformed to His precious image.

                      I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming (REVELATION) of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
                      (1Co 1:4-9 KJV)

                      God even promises grace is being brought to us in the revelation of Jesus Christ.

                      Wherefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace that is being brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, (1Pe 1:13 YLT)

                      We have this ministry of the revelation of Christ; and without the revelation of Christ’s glory in us there is no way we shall be changed into His image from glory to glory.

                      but, according as ye have fellowship with the sufferings of the Christ, rejoice ye, that also IN THE REVELATION OF HIS GLORY ye may rejoice–exulting;
                      (1Pe 4:13 YLT)

                      But we all, with UNVEILED FACE beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, ARE CHANGED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, EVEN AS BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD. Therefore SEEING WE HAVE THIS MINISTRY, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the GOSPEL OF THE GLORY of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, TO GIVE THE LIGHT OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST. (2Co 3:18-4:6 )

                      REMEMBER THAT JESUS IS THE LIGHT FOR THE REVELATION OF THE GENTILES. God has commanded for that light of revelation of the knowledge of the glory of God to shine out of our hearts. Revelation is defined as an unveiling a taking off the cover a disclosure. Moses put a veil over the faces of all the people who read the scripture by just the letter, and that veil remains even till this day when we read THE PEN AND INK SCRIPTURES WITHOUT THE SPIRIT OF GOD TEACHING US and The only way for the vail to be REMOVED FROM OUR LIVES when we read the scriptures, IS TO COME TO THE REVELATION OF THE GLORY OF CHRIST IN US.

                      Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which VAIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST. But even unto this day, WHEN MOSES IS READ, THE VAIL IS UPON THEIR HEART. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, THE VAIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
                      (2Co 3:12-16 KJV)

                      So for what possible reason would I ever stop seeking for the revelation of God’s precious Son Jesus Christ in me? So if you don’t mind, NO, I will never ever not stop seeking for His revelation Scripture does not tell me anywhere that I need to stop, So I will continually seek for the revelation of His Son in me as all Christians should do. I will also pray that you come into the spirit of wisdom and revelation in Him.

                      Grace and Peace

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 22, 2013 at 3:18 am

                      Patrick, isn’t the Holy Spirit a spirit? You fail in your ability to identify spirits. The Holy Spirit doesn’t dispute:
                      Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

                    • Patrick Strickland January 31, 2013 at 2:43 pm

                      Lanny I absolutely agree with you 100% when you say that the Holy Ghost WILL NOT CONTRADICT SCRIPTURES That is a great wonderful blessed truth there. I believe it fully. However, the Holy spirit, the anointing in us who is leading and guiding us into ALL TRUTH, will not hesitate to contradict man’s interpretations of what they think scriptures mean. He does that because man’s interpretation is not God’s truth. That is why the Holy Spirit seemingly contradicts the scripture, When that happens the Holy spirit is not contradicting scripture at ALL. He is contradicting what men teach as the word of god but truly is not. What men have taught as scripture truth is not God’s opinion of what He sent His word to do, but it is some man’s opinion It is some denominations view of what they think He said which makes the WORD OF GOD proceeding out of his mouth null and void.

                      Everything I say to you can be found in scripture. I know what I have told you contradicts what you have been taught they mean, just because it contradicts what you believe does not make it a lie. Jesus gave us an anointing to lead us and guide us into all truth so that we can know the truth from the lie. But if you don’t take the time to ask Jesus what the truth is then How can you know what you believe is actually the truth? If you don’t learn to trust the anointing in you and ask Him to teach you the truth then you will believe the lie every time.

                      Jesus gave ALL OF US one thing for us TO DO in order for us to know what truth is. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man WILL DO HIS WILL, HE SHALL KNOW OF THE DOCTRINE, WHETHER IT BE OF GOD, OR WHETHER I SPEAK OF MYSELF. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
                      (Joh 7:16-18 KJV)

                      All you have to do is just DO His will and you will know if the doctrine is from myself, and my imagination, or is actually from God. Do His will and you will know…Try Praying without doubting, that all men will be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth just like God will have them prayed for and you shall see that if you pray anything according to his will, He will hear you and if He hears you He will do it as he promised in scriptures. If you can’t do that because of what you believe: then try to pray for something simple that you know is his will for you to pray for; something that you can pray without doubting at all; try praying for the spirit of wisdom and revelation in him which also is God’s will for you to do, Pray that God the Father will teach you his voice if you want; it does not matter, pick something you can believe him for and ask him to show you the truth of it. By simply doing the word you will know if I am speaking just my opinion or speaking what God has shown me.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert January 31, 2013 at 8:11 pm

                      Patrick, God stopped Balaam from doing what you suggest and went on to tell us what sort he was. I will not be what sort you are, poor boy.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 4, 2013 at 6:37 pm

                      What you don’t want to be one who seeks to hear what God has to say concerning what he actually meant by what he had written? You don’t want to be some one who does the will of the Father so you can enter into the kingdom of heaven? What you don’t want to be someone who actually has a living relationship with God based on actually hearing his voice? What you don’t want to be taught by God Himself which is your covenant right?

                      That is all I am trying to do. I want only Christ to be seen in my life.

                      I am not seeking to curse Israel or anyone for that fact for money. I am telling everyone that they are blessed because of what Jesus did at the cross. And that His death at the cross was truly effective for all men. I am not being offered any money at all by anyone to curse anyone which Balaam did. God stopped Balaam because he did not do the will of His father because he loved the money of Balak the king of Moab more then he wanted to follow God. When the King’s emissary showed up a second time He should have sent them on their way he already knew that God did not want Him to go. But he sat there whining begging and pleading God till he relented and told him to go. If it was not for his donkey he would have been killed by the angel that God sent. But God spared him and sent him to speak a blessing to Israel instead of a curse.

                      However many members of denominations are offering money to their preachers every week so they can hear them curse all who don’t believe the way they do to hell even though Scripture is crystal clear the God IS the saviour of ALL men , especially those the believe, this we are supposed to command and teach. I think your denomination has more in common with Balaam than I do.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 5, 2013 at 12:48 pm

                      Patrick, STILL the only way into salvation is by a deliberate act of faith by the sinner and the opportunity is clearly NOW {2 Corinthians 6: 2} since there is NO written instruction {revelation} of any post physical death gospel and no examples of anybody saved after death. You continue to dream your satanic dream in opposition to God.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 9, 2013 at 7:30 pm

                      Heb 3:7-8 KJV Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, (8) Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

                      If a person hears his voice today then it their time to enter into salvation. But most men have not heard his voice. Many have never heard his voice and have been taught of the Lord. Jesus said that the time is coming and NOW is when the dead shall hear his voice. The new covenant guarantees that all will be taught of the Lord. Now you claim there are no after death repentance verses in scripture I disagree I have already shown you at least 2 but you just don’t believe them. Ezekiel 16 the restoration of Sodom, and Romans 11:16-26 when God breaks off the natural branches and then when they repent and believe they are graffed back into the tree. Now when the branches are broken off they die. So after death the branches that were broken off get a chance to repent and believe God and all Israel will be saved by being graffed back into the olive tree they were broken off.
                      There is a third

                      Psa 68:18-19 KJV Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (19) Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

                      Eph 4:8-10 KJV Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

                      1Pe 3:18-22 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (21) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (22) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

                      Jesus went and preached to the spirits of men in prison who were disobedient to God and who had died during the flood when Noah was alive. He lead them -captivity captive back into heaven where he gave them gifts the gift He gave them is salvation because they had repented and believed in Him and what he had done at the cross.

                      See there are scriptures but you just don’t believe that God wants to dwell even in the rebellious. But when God does dwell in them they will no longer be rebellious because that old man that caused them to be that will be burned out of them and they will be thankful for the mercy and forgiveness that God has shown them. No matter how many men religion puts into hell forever God will send someone sooner or later to preach to them and to bring them out because of what Jesus did at the cross for all men, and what God has sworn to do for all men will occur.

                      You can claim that there are no verses but I can show you that they are there. You are free to believe what ever you want. I know what I am going to believe.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Patrick Strickland February 9, 2013 at 7:46 pm

                      I agree that faith is essential

                      Faith comes by hearing and hearing by a rheama (what God is saying right now) of God. Without hearing God speak you cannot have faith but at the same time scripture does declare that God has given to every men a measure of faith. ROM 12:3

                      The dead are going to hear the Word of the Lord and when they do they will then have faith; and the word of the Lord has gone forth out of His mouth in righteousness shall not return to him void but it shall accomplish what he sent it to do and that is a command for all the ends of the earth to look and be saved. How can they not be saved if he has commanded them to be saved? They can be dead for thousands of years and know nothing about God but his command will not be hindered by any circumstances but it shall accomplish what God pleases. All are going to look and all are going to be saved. Anything less then that is a lie.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 11, 2013 at 12:47 am

                      Again, Patrick, none of your quotes relate to salvation after physical death. Hebrews 3:7-8 references Israel in the wilderness under Moses leadership and John 5: 28 is Jesus’ call to souls to resurrect from the graves in the earth. Neither are post physical death calls to receive salvation. Ezekiel 16 is God saying He will NEVER return Sodom to its former estate as I showed you how two-faced silly that would be for God on the Dream Machines blog today. So your best first three failed for misinterpretations and I then assume the same for the rest.

                      So I repeat: STILL the only way into salvation is by a deliberate act of faith by the sinner and the opportunity is clearly NOW {2 Corinthians 6: 2} since there is NO written instruction {revelation} of any post physical death gospel and NO EXAMPLES of anybody saved after death. You continue to dream your satanic dream in opposition to God.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 14, 2013 at 5:15 pm

                      When I declare and quote from what scripture says that ‘God will have all men saved and come into the knowledge of the truth’ and declare to you that we ‘serve and trust a living God who is the saviour of all men especially those who believe.’ I Tim 2:3-6; 4:9-11 You respond by saying that there are no scriptures that say God will save all men.

                      When I quote scripture that declares that ‘God will restore Sodom to it’s former estate. Eze 16:50-63’ You respond that it is a metaphor and god is not going to restore Sodom.

                      When I quote scripture that declares ‘whom he foreknew he did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son Rom 8:29’ And ask you who did he not foreknow since all were created in Him? You respond that God has foreknown most to burn in hell forever. Yet you supply absolutely no verses to back up that claim. And since none exist that say that, you won’t be able to.

                      I see a clear pattern of denial on your part forming here. So with your track record of believing and teaching lies that are not in scripture I for one am not surprised that you cannot see after death repentance in all those examples I provided.

                      How do you think those branches that were broken off because of unbelief and died will ever get grafted back in unless they do repent and believe? Explain how you can go from unbelief to belief when you are dead without repentance if you can? Explain how ALL Israel will be saved if they do not get graffed back into the natural olive tree?

                      Explain to me how all the men who were disobedient in hell that Jesus preached to were led into heaven and given gifts if they did not repent? What gift does God give the rebellious? According to john 4:10 Jesus is the gift of God. AND THE GIFT OF GOD IS GIVEN TO ALL MEN AS ROMANS 5 DECLARES.

                      Rom 5:14-19 KJV Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (15) But not as the offence,SO ALSO IS THE FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, SO IS THE GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, BUT THE FREE GIFT IS OF MANY OFFENCES UNTO JUSTIFICATION. (17) For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL REIGN IN LIFE BY ONE, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

                      Rom 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

                      God wants to dwell in all of us even in those who were rebellious and have died and gone to hades. He has already preached to many who are rebellious and has led them into heaven and has given them the gift of God.

                      Eph 4:4-10 KJV There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) One God and FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL. (7) BUT UNTO EVERY ONE OF US IS GIVEN GRACE ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE GIFT OF CHRIST. (8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.)

                      Psa 68:18-19 KJV Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (19) Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

                      So How did they not repent?

                      As I said before you just do not believe what is clearly written in scripture.

                      As to now is the day of salvation If you hear his voice why wait, now would be the best time to come and enter into your salvation That is what the kinsman redeemer is for. However Again you add a word that is not there in that verse…The verse says ‘now is the day of salvation’…It does not say as you read it ‘now is the ‘only’ day of salvation’ You know how I know that because all who sold there birth right got to return back to it if they got a kinsman redeemer to pay their debt for them. But if no one did then when the year of jubilee came around,which happened every fifty years, on the day of atonement a trumpet would be sounded throughout all of the land and All prisoners were forgiven and released and all debts were forgiven and all slaves were set free to return back to their inheritance that they had lost. Not one individually was excluded from that great and wonderful day. The kinsman redeemer is for our salvation now, not all will be redeemed in their lifetime but only those who ask him to save them but soon there is going to be a year a jubliee and all creation will be released from the prison of sin and hell to return back to their place in the body of Christ where they were created in him and chosen before they entered into this world. Their place in the body of Christ is their inheritance, their promised land that God has given to all men before their was even a world created.

                      Lanny all you know about is just the kinsman redeemer, and that is great that you now Him. but there is a year of jubilee coming for all creation that you know nothing about. Maybe it is time for you to start asking God to teach you about it.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 14, 2013 at 5:16 pm

                      When I declare and quote from what scripture says that ‘God will have all men saved and come into the knowledge of the truth’ and declare to you that we ‘serve and trust a living God who is the saviour of all men especially those who believe.’ I Tim 2:3-6; 4:9-11 You respond by saying that there are no scriptures that say God will save all men.

                      When I quote scripture that declares that ‘God will restore Sodom to it’s former estate. Eze 16:50-63’ You respond that it is a metaphor and god is not going to restore Sodom.

                      When I quote scripture that declares ‘whom he foreknew he did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son Rom 8:29’ And ask you who did he not foreknow since all were created in Him? You respond that God has foreknown most to burn in hell forever. Yet you supply absolutely no verses to back up that claim. And since none exist that say that, you won’t be able to.

                      I see a clear pattern of denial on your part forming here. So with your track record of believing and teaching lies that are not in scripture I for one am not surprised that you cannot see after death repentance in all those examples I provided.

                      How do you think those branches that were broken off because of unbelief and died will ever get grafted back in unless they do repent and believe? Explain how you can go from unbelief to belief when you are dead without repentance if you can? Explain how ALL Israel will be saved if they do not get graffed back into the natural olive tree?

                      Explain to me how all the men who were disobedient in hell that Jesus preached to were led into heaven and given gifts if they did not repent? What gift does God give the rebellious? According to john 4:10 Jesus is the gift of God. AND THE GIFT OF GOD IS GIVEN TO ALL MEN AS ROMANS 5 DECLARES.

                      Rom 5:14-19 KJV Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (15) But not as the offence,SO ALSO IS THE FREE GIFT. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the GIFT BY GRACE, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, SO IS THE GIFT: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, BUT THE FREE GIFT IS OF MANY OFFENCES UNTO JUSTIFICATION. (17) For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL REIGN IN LIFE BY ONE, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

                      Rom 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD.

                      God wants to dwell in all of us even in those who were rebellious and have died and gone to hades. He has already preached to many who are rebellious and has led them into heaven and has given them the gift of God.

                      Eph 4:4-10 KJV There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) One God and FATHER OF ALL, WHO IS ABOVE ALL, AND THROUGH ALL, AND IN YOU ALL. (7) BUT UNTO EVERY ONE OF US IS GIVEN GRACE ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE OF THE GIFT OF CHRIST. (8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, AND GAVE GIFTS UNTO MEN (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, THAT HE MIGHT FILL ALL THINGS.)

                      Psa 68:18-19 KJV Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. (19) Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

                      So How did they not repent?

                      As I said before you just do not believe what is clearly written in scripture.

                      As to now is the day of salvation If you hear his voice why wait, now would be the best time to come and enter into your salvation That is what the kinsman redeemer is for. However Again you add a word that is not there in that verse…The verse says ‘now is the day of salvation’…It does not say as you read it ‘now is the ‘only’ day of salvation’ You know how I know that because all who sold there birth right got to return back to it if they got a kinsman redeemer to pay their debt for them. But if no one did then when the year of jubilee came around,which happened every fifty years, on the day of atonement a trumpet would be sounded throughout all of the land and All prisoners were forgiven and released and all debts were forgiven and all slaves were set free to return back to their inheritance that they had lost. Not one individually was excluded from that great and wonderful day. The kinsman redeemer is for our salvation now, not all will be redeemed in their lifetime but only those who ask him to save them but soon there is going to be a year a jubliee and all creation will be released from the prison of sin and hell to return back to their place in the body of Christ where they were created in him and chosen before they entered into this world. Their place in the body of Christ is their inheritance, their promised land that God has given to all men before their was even a world created.

                      Lanny all you know about is just the kinsman redeemer, and that is great that you know Him. but there is a year of jubilee coming for all creation that you know nothing about. Maybe it is time for you to start asking God to teach you about it.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 15, 2013 at 2:15 am

                      Patrick, you still haven’t proven anybody got saved after they physically died in unbelief, nor have you proven the offer is made to them. There are no such declarations in Scripture, only CONCLUSIONS that you wishfully make. You don’t have a leg on which to stand. You wish to conclude what is not stated. What is stated and that by Jesus Christ Himself PROPHETICALLY is:
                      Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven
                      He Who knows the future spoke of the future telling us He knows everybody will NOT enter. {The verb to enter is a future tense verb of reality.} He knows the WHOLE future and addressed the subject accordingly.

                      You error in your interpretations by refusing to understand this very clear and precise statement so that you might find other interpretations in order to avoid eternal torment.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 15, 2013 at 2:38 pm

                      Lanny you remind me of a story i once heard

                      There was this married man who one day just up and decided that he was dead. Everyone he ran into he told he was dead. His wife got very worried for Him. she took him to a psychologist.

                      “What seems to be the problem” said the doctor.

                      “I am dead” said the man

                      The psychologist spent hours and hours talking to the man trying to convince him he was not dead. He finally got the idea to take the man to many autopsies to prove one point to the man dead men do not bleed. He kept stressing this point of truth. They went to hundreds of autopsies together.

                      Finally the man relented and said “All right doc dead men don’t bleed.”

                      Immediately the doctor stuck his hand with a needle and the blood just started to flow.

                      The man looked down at his hand and said “What do you know dead men do bleed”

                      Scripture clearly declares that “God is the Saviour of all men especially those that believe.” God has “commanded all the ends of the earth to look and be saved” and his word has gone out in righteousness and will not return to him void. He has even sworn by Himself that every knee will bow an every tongue will confess that in him they have righteousness and strength.

                      Yet just like the man claiming to be dead you won’t face the reality of scripture and continue to declare that God is not the saviour of all men.

                      One day Lanny you will hear the word of the Lord that proceeds from his mouth for yourself and the scales will come off your eyes.

                      Till that day grace and peace and I will continue to thank God he has heard my prayer which was according to his will for all men to be saved and come into the truth and since it was according to his will he heard me and I will have what I prayed for. I thank God you are part of all men who will come into His truth.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 16, 2013 at 2:36 am

                      And, Patrick, you still make Jesus a Liar
                      Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

                      You continue to stretch your interpretations by adding ideas that are NOT there nor are intended to be implied. If you’d only use this text as your core idea you’d be able to justify the others and understand God hasn’t provided any means of salvation for those who die in their sins {unbelief}. You still haven’t proven a single rebellious soul after physical death has repented and been saved during the two thousand years God took to write His perfect literal Holy Bible even though its history records many who have been saved by grace through faith during their earthly life and suffered for it.

                      For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake {Philippians 1: 29} I bet you have forgotten this is part of salvation’s offer, haven’t you? How are the deceased going to suffer after they’ve been saved? How are they going to testify of the grace of God to the lost? There’s none of any of this revealled in the Scriptures, dear man. Your post death salvation doesn’t wash, Patrick. It is all a huge fancy satanic lie you all blame the institution for conspiring reality upon the masses.

                      And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. {Acts 17: 30 & 31}

                      That day of judgment is a one time FINAL deal with FIXED sentences that NEVER change for all of eternity: eternal torment. This is innate knowledge men have tried for centuries to deny by satanic inspiration and you are no different.

                    • Patrick Strickland February 18, 2013 at 3:28 pm

                      I was watching “Through the Wormhole” with Morgan Freeman as the host today, and the episode involved how memory of an event can be permanently changed by peer pressure alone.

                      A doctor did an experiment where he had a group of people come in and watch a short video. The video had a child with a cowboy hat on. They were then brought into a room and asked many questions about the video. Then they were taken individually to an MRI scanner where they were asked the same questions about the video again but they were told false results concerning what the rest of the group had seen on the child’s head – that the child did not have a hat on. 70% of the people changed their answers and said that the child did not have a hat.

                      The MRI showed that the amygdala and the hippocampus lit up with great activity. The amygdala is related to emotions and the hippocampus is related to memory. Months later they were asked about the video again and they continued to remember that the child had no hat.
                      Their memories of the event were were permanently changed.

                      Many of us have a tendency to accept what ever the group we belong to accepts as truth because we have a need to fit in to the group, and we don’t want to be rejected.

                      This is why Jesus said: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. I receive not honour from men. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Joh 5:39-44

                      See Jesus knew that if you are seeking honor that comes from just men it can change your perception and memories of events including what you read. That is why He tells us to seek the glory and honor that comes from only God Himself.

                      I am only looking for the honor and glory that comes from God alone. I don’t have to stretch or add any words to God’s written intent and purpose. I can find plenty of verses that word for word declare that God will save all men. Such as this one you are by now familiar with but refuse to believe because of the peer pressure you are under and has caused you to conform to what they say and think that God’s purpose and intent is to torture most of mankind in hell forever.

                      1Ti 2:3-4 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

                      Or how about this one where God speaks in righteousness declaring this truth from ancient times and commands all the ends of the earth to look and be saved swearing by himself that every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that in him they have righteousness and strength, and to him men shall come:

                      Isa 45:19-25 KJV I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: WHO HATH DECLARED THIS FROM ANCIENT TIME? WHO HATH TOLD IT FROM THAT TIME? HAVE NOT I THE LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR. (24) Surely, shall one say, IN THE LORD HAVE I RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH: EVEN TO HIM SHALL MEN COME; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

                      When verse 23 says the the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return we can understand that the Lord is referring to the promise in Isaiah 55 where his word shall not return back to him void but it shall accomplish that which he pleases, and it shall prosper in the thing he sent it to do. God sent out his word for all men to look and be saved and they shall all look and be saved. (Psa 98:3; Isa 52:10; acts 13:47) His word cannot return to him without accomplishing and prospering in what he sent it to do. Jesus said that if I be lifted up I will drag ALL men unto me he said this concerning his death at the cross.

                      Isa 55:10-11 KJV For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: (11) So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

                      When Isaiah prophesied the command for all the ends of the earth to look and be saved he spake by the spirit of Christ that was in Him. Jesus Christ spoke to Isaiah concerning Isaiah 45 and he was fully aware of it when he was in the earth in His flesh body ministering to all the multitudes what he had already declared to all of the prophets of old. Jesus did not contradict himself when he spoke Matthew seven to the multitudes of Jews which included the Pharisees like you think he did. Jesus did not say to them “never return” or “They shall never enter into the kingdom” as you add to the scripture. By adding that you make him contradict himself when he had Isaiah prophecy the command for all men to look and be saved, AND SWORE BY HIS NAME THAT EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SWEAR THAT IN HIM THEY HAVE RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRNEGTH.. When he said they never knew him he did not say that they would ‘never’ come to the place where they would know him, because being gathered into Jesus is the new covenant and Jeremiah said that there is a day when ALL will know him. Jer 31:34 … TEACH…Know the LORD: for they shall ALL KNOW ME, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:….

                      1Pe 1:10-12 KJV Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

                      GOD’S PURPOSE

                      In verse 24 of Isaiah 45 when it says Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him men shall come: the one that is speaking, is all who are gathered together in one in Christ. Which is the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which he has PURPOSED IN HIMSELF TO DO IN THE DISPESATION OF THE FULNESS OF TIMES. Verse 9 tells us clearly that there is a mystery of his will he has purposed in himself. Verse 10 tells us what that purpose is: that he is going to gather together in one all things in Christ. Verse 11 tells us we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Eternal torment is not even mentioned as God’s purpose. Gathering together in one all things in Christ is his purpose. See I don’t have to stretch or change or even add anything what I am saying is clearly there in scripture.

                      Eph 1:7-12 KJV In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (8) Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; (9) having made known unto us the mystery of his will, ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE WHICH HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN CHRIST, BOTH WHICH ARE IN HEAVEN, AND WHICH ARE ON EARTH; EVEN IN HIM: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, BEING PREDESTINATED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (12) That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

                      God’s purpose for who he foreknew (And who did he not foreknew?) …who he foreknew he also predestinated to be conformed into the image of His son.

                      Rom 8:28-31 KJV And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE. (29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (31) What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

                      Those who are predestinated are going to be glorified. That means that they are going to come to christ and see the glory he has. When they do come to Christ and the veil that is over our eyes is removed, then they shall see His unlimited unending glory, and they shall be changed into the same image that we see from glory to glory.

                      2Co 3:14-18 KJV But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. (15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. (16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. (17) Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (18) But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

                      This plan is going to be accomplished in a few men first who are the first fruits, the MANIFESTED sons of God. And these Sons of God when the Lord fully reveals, and manifests himself which is His glory in them to all the earth, then they are going to gather ALL creation including all men into the same liberty of the glory in Christ Jesus that they have.

                      Rom 8:19-24 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. (20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, (21) Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God (22) For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. (23) And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. (24) For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

                      None of these promises that the spirit of Christ has spoken will ever come to pass if one man suffers in eternal torment.

                      See the bottom line is if eternal torment is true then God lied when he swore by his name to save all the ends of the earth. Now we know from scripture that when God swears by himself then what he swore to shall come to pass because his word is now immutable and is based upon the unchangeable fact that God cannot lie so that option can’t be true. God has obligated himself to save all the ends of the earth, His word absolutely cannot return to him without accomplishing what he sent it to do!!! Who would want to serve a God who can’t or won’t keep his sworn word.

                      The only option that makes any sense is that God sworn word will come to pass and all judgments are for the purpose of bringing that sworn word to pass. Eternal torment is a lie that the church has accepted as truth. And God is going to clean that lie completely out of His body. Many are not going to be pleased when that happens, in fact many will be very upset with God but they are going to be very disappointed because he is not going to change his sworn word for them.

                      I have prayed according to his will for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth… just like scripture said to do and according to his promise in I john 5 if I pray anything according to his will then he hears me and if he hears me then I shall receive the petition that I have asked for. I know I have received it and my prayer is answered. I have no doubts whatsoever I have the promise of God guaranteeing that I have it, so it does not matter how long that he takes to fulfill it I know that he has fulfilled it and in the fulness of times I shall see it come to pass.

                      According to 2 Peter 3:9 God is not willing for any to perish but for all to come into repentance. This goes very well with the command for all men to repent in acts 17 which you brought up. Guess what I have also prayed for all men to repent since it is clearly his commanded will. And I have no doubt that all men will repent and it will come to pass in God’s timing in the dispensation of the fulness of times when he is going to gather together in one all things in Christ.

                      Eternal torment is now absolutely impossible in light of these scriptural promises. You would have to break the command of God, the purpose of God, the sworn word of God, and the promise of receiving what you pray for as long as you are praying his will in order for eternal torment to even come to pass. And the chances of that ever happening are non existent. Either God is a liar or eternal torment is a lie that men have taught when the Catholic church brought the pagan teaching of torture in the afterlife into the church. There is no other option.

                      This message of the salvation of all was the majority message for the first three hundred years of the church. But when men started to not listen to the holy Ghost teach them what the truth was and and others who were angry and wanted God to get their enemies started voting upon what truth was in the council meetings and brought in the pagan teaching of hell it then became the minority message and because of persecutions, excommunications, religious censorship it passed almost completely out of view. This resulted in the dark ages. Then 500 years ago God began to slowly restore the church back to truth starting with Martin Luther justification by faith alone, then the holiness movement of the 17th and 18 centuries. God’s restoration of truth has been a line here and a line there. Then in the 1800′ the truth of the salvation of all resurfaced and has been a minority view since; at the turn of the 20th century the pentecostal movement restored the baptism in the holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues to the main stream church. In the 40’s and 50’s the latter rain movement began which brought great tent meetings many healings, the message of sonship and the teaching of the third day was restored to the church for those who wanted to follow God in what he was doing. The 80 brought great revival and God has from the 80’s been convincing many men and women who are listening to Him teach them that they can be like him now in this earth and that his true purpose is the salvation of all men.

                      Mean while the denominations have had 1700 years to cement their opinion of the word by destroying all of their opposition through character assassinations Name calling and if that did not shut them up then they resorted to torture and murder; and they have systematize their teaching of eternal torment. Any one who does not tote the accepted denomination line of their reasonings for the end are ridiculed, and if that does not work then they are ostracized and treated like they never knew the Lord, and then they are told they are going to hell. Is it any wonder that you have such a hard time believing it as truth. Your mind won’t let you because you want to fit in with men more then you want the glory and honor that comes from God alone

                      You are free to believe anything you want to… you can believe in eternal torment till the day you die if you want to, and you can probably convince many that it is true. But your opinion still won’t change what God has sworn to do, what has come out of his mouth in righteousness and will not return to him void but will accomplish what HE sent it to do.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 19, 2013 at 4:41 am

                      Patrick, it is a pity you have more words than I have patience, but this one thing I know: you still cannot prove a salvation offer for those deceased without faith, nor can you identify anybody in Scripture who died outside the faith that later got saved. In this life both the offer and the persons are witnessed in Scripture, while none of your post death scenes are. Why aren’t you hearing that witness? Why can’t you see your logic , which is all you have to make your point, must be faulty?

                    • Patrick Strickland February 23, 2013 at 4:44 pm

                      Actually Lanny I have provided three examples from scripture of after death repentance but your belief that a burning hell for eternity is God’s will for most men, blinds you to the reality of what is actually in scripture.

                      There is only one scripture in all of the bible where God says he has spoken in righteousness and his word shall not return, and he has sworn by himself to do. And that one scripture is not a burn in hell for eternity passage at all. That double whammy which in no uncertain terms guarantees that what God has promised will absolutely come to pass is tied to two verses that involve the salvation of all men. One being the command for all the ends of the earth to look and be saved and two every knee bowing and every tongue covenant swearing that in him they have righteousness and strength.

                      The same cannot be said about any hell passage.

                      God is not a liar Lanny what he has sworn to do he will do it and there is no doctrinal interpretation or will of man that will stop him from preforming His will.

                      Dan 4:35 KJV And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

                      All of God’s judgments are correctional. There is great judgment for those who do not do the will of God but in the end God will have all the ends of the earth to look and be saved.

                      The problem you have Lanny is that my logic is not faulty as you suppose but that the traditions of men, you believe in which make the word of God of none effect makes you assume it is because you cannot find any verse in the entire bible that can contradict the double promise of the salvation of all.

                      Eternal torment is now absolutely impossible in light of all these scriptural promises that I have shared in the many posts to you. You would have to break the command of God, the purpose of God, the sworn word of God, and the promise of receiving what you pray for as long as you are praying his will in order for eternal torment to even come to pass. And the chances of that ever happening are non existent. Either God is a liar or eternal torment is a lie that men have taught when the Catholic church brought the pagan teaching of torture in the afterlife into the church. There is no other option

                    • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2013 at 1:58 am

                      Patrick, why hasn’t your supposed post death salvation produced any saints recorded in the Scriptures during its two thousand year production from Moses to John? Without any such saints your supposed salvation lacks witnesses and your case is thrown out.

                      As I told Mark, so I tell you:

                      Look, Patrick, Jesus bore in His mortal earthly body our sins, so therefore only while we are yet in our mortal bodies can we have our mortal sins removed by Jesus’ death suffered on this earth. That’s where the cross is, Patrick, on this earth. That’s why He said {John 8: 21 & 24} that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Only in this life God is able to forgive sins. They were committed in this life and in this life they must be forgiven. Once you die with your sins you keep them forever and if the fire doesn’t torment you forever, your sins will.

                      If you get the faith right in Jesus Christ, then you will from that moment through all eternity have no more sins based on total forgiveness. In this life after faith has rightly come does NOT mean experiential sinless perfection, but it does mean progressive sanctification while completely forgiven.

    • Sisterlisa December 7, 2012 at 10:21 pm

      Lanny,
      If “false cults” justify their interpretations, then what do real cults do?

  • Mary Vanderplas December 7, 2012 at 8:42 pm

    I agree that the language of Revelation is largely metaphorical – which is one of the defining features of first-century apocalyptic writing. I agree, too, that the language associated with “hell” is not a literal description of reality (though it does point to something real). I like your drawing pointing up the absurdity of a literal interpretation of what are meant in Revelation to be pictorial representations – by which you call attention to the inconsistencies in the interpretive scheme employed by those who insist on a literal meaning of the “lake of fire” imagery.

    I agree with your indictment of Chan on the grounds that the doctrine of eternal torment misrepresents the character and ways of God. While I don’t disagree with your point about the witness of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers, I don’t think that the Spirit’s witness can be disconnected from the biblical revelation – the normative witness to the acts of God in human history and especially in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The main problem with Chan and others who espouse the doctrine of eternal torment, in my view, is that they fail to read the biblical text in light of the character of God revealed in Jesus Christ. Additionally, they fail to read the text in its literary and historical contexts. Hence, they misread it.

    I think you’re right on in saying that, if Chan really believed what he says he believes about the eternal destiny of unbelievers, he would act differently – i.e., that his embarrassment and revulsion are indications that he doesn’t really embrace the doctrine. I like, too, your reframing of his questions to inquire whether hell as he construes it is real. One can only pray that he will have his eyes opened to the truth that the God revealed in scripture and in Jesus Christ is not the god that this horrible doctrine portrays, that God is not a vengeful tyrant who tortures eternally his enemies.

    • Lanny A. Eichert December 8, 2012 at 8:03 pm

      What Mary means by “they fail to read the text in its literary and historical contexts” is that the Bible in her view is just like any other book produced my man. You see, she must decide for herself its literary and historical contexts in order to interpret its meanings. That’s all well and good if she gets it rightly balanced. She also adds it must be interpreted in accordance with her understanding of the character of God as she sees it revealed in Jesus Christ. Don’t you all see that how she sees it revealed is purely her opinion? Her opinion runs contrary to the exact words of Jesus in Matthew 7: 13, 14, 21 – 23 since He clearly stated the majority of humanity find their way to destruction and of the especially religious ones He professes “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” WHAT is the context? His subject is eternal destiny. His point is eternal torment for them all from which they shall NEVER escape. That is contrary to her understanding of the character of God, yet that is exactly what the words of Jesus mean. Now she must change the meaning of the words of Jesus to fit her view of the character of God. What she really needs to do is change her view of the character of God to match the words of Jesus. Jesus never said there would be forgiveness of sins after physical death. In fact just the contrary He stated in John 8: 21 & 24 that they die in their sins who fail to believe Who He is. Since there is no getting rid of sins after death, there is only eternal torment with their sins mode of existence forever. Why will she not believe these texts? She refuses to foresake her false view of God for the correct one, because she wants a loving god instead of a just God Who punishes unbelief. Do you reader think God is unjust to punish unbelief? God went to an awful lot of trouble to offer you salvation by simple faith, and you don’t see the magnitude of unbelief that rejects His salvation? God became a man in order that He might substitute Himself in your place of judgment to take your death sentence. He only asks you to believe it and receive it. If you will not, He cannot save you. If He cannot save you, then you must suffer your own sentence of eternal torment and be cast aside as trash. The choice is yours.

      • Mary Vanderplas December 9, 2012 at 12:33 pm

        The Bible was written by people whose language and thought forms and views of life and the world reflect the times and cultures in which they lived. This is fact, not mere supposition or opinion. To approach the biblical text as though it was written in a vacuum and is purely the product of the Holy Spirit mechanically inspiring the human “authors” is surely to miss what God was saying long ago through the words of the writers and what God is saying here and now through this same word.

        The God revealed in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a God of love and mercy toward undeserving sinners – which includes all of us. This is the message of the gospel, the Good News proclaimed by the Evangelists and by the apostle Paul and the other New Testament writers. The message that you “proclaim” is Bad News – indeed, horrifically Bad News – for the majority of people God created. It is a perversion of the gospel of the God who loved the world (John 3:16; Luke 2:10). The God revealed in scripture and in Jesus Christ is both loving and just – and is so consistently, with all people. He is not a schizophrenic god who is (arbitrarily) loving and just with some and only just with others. Moreover, the justice of God is a loving justice, not the “justice” of a tyrant who wills the destruction of those who are hostile toward him. Indeed, that God’s justice was satisfied in the death of Jesus Christ supremely demonstrates that it is a loving justice.

        To say that God cannot save those who don’t believe, that unbelievers must pay the price for their own sins, is to deny the power of what God did in the cross of Christ. It is to deny what the Bible teaches about Christ’s death being the death of sin, the “decisive outworking of God’s wrath against sin,” in Paul Dafydd Jones’ words. It is also to make salvation dependent on the human decision, to give primacy to the human decision over God’s act in Christ. Indeed, to rule out even the possibility of God bringing in every last sinner is to turn the God of sovereign freedom and power into a frustrated deity who stands by impotently as the majority of the creation plunges headlong to destruction – or, alternatively, a heartless judge who “has no choice” but to carry out some fixed Plan whereby the majority are eternally doomed. The God the Bible reveals is neither of these caricatures. He is the God of sovereign power and freedom who loves passionately every one of his human creatures and wills that all be saved – and who is fully capable of accomplishing what he wills.

        • Lanny A. Eichert December 10, 2012 at 3:25 am

          Freedom, Mary? How does God grant humanity freedom if He will not allow them to pay the just and ultimate price of disobedience?

          • Mary Vanderplas December 10, 2012 at 5:30 pm

            The justice of God has been satisfied already; the price of our sin has been paid already – by the One who loves each one of us beyond telling.

            I’m done discussing this.

          • Lanny A. Eichert December 13, 2012 at 4:30 pm

            But, dear Mary, their account is not marked “satisfied” without their faith.

            For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard {Hebrews 4: 2}.

            Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief {Hebrews 4: 6}

            Alice is fond of restated the opposite which would be:
            Seeing therefore it remaineth that most will not enter therein, because they to whom it is preached enter not in because of unbelief

            But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {Hebrews 11: 6}

            For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God {Ephesians 2: 8}

            Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide the gate, and broad the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait the gate, and narrow the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}

            Obviously God gives the gift only to His chosen few that they might have faith; and He leaves the majority in their fallen total depravity unable to mix the heard words with the faith necessary to be saved. That is observable in current events since there is no such thing as a real Christian Majority. God’s “spiritual” Israel has always been and will always be few in number and not mighty.

            For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations {Deuteronomy 7: 6 – 9}

            There is NO RECORD of salvation for those who die in unbelief, Mary, Alice, Patrick, or any of the rest of you readers; even though the justice of God has been satisfied already, because God made it profitable ONLY BY FAITH in this life alone. The Gospel is NOT preached after physical death and I gave ten verses to prove it:

            For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
            let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
            they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
            among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
            Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
            The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
            for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
            For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

            • admin December 15, 2012 at 6:39 pm

              “for because of this Christ both died and rose again, and lived again, that both of dead and of living he may be Lord.” – Romans 14:9

              • Lanny A. Eichert December 15, 2012 at 7:38 pm

                Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, dear Alice. The dead are those who died in faith not those who died outside of the faith.

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