Fear of Julie the White Witch

Fear of Julie the White Witch

Friday Fears

 

JulietheWhiteWitch

Author and orphan advocate (and a friend I met through Facebook), Julie Ferwerda, recently received some negative feedback about her book, Raising Hell, including comments like this, “the Lord revealed to me you are truely a heretic \”white witch\” and I rebuked you in the name of Jesus Christ for planting words of deceit in the minds of new Christians,” and this, “Why would God allow Jesus to come down and endure such great suffering, according to you it was all for nothing because the reward is all the same in the end…why follow Jesus!”  This got me thinking about the words of Christ, “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves,” and how Julie most definitely does not wear sheep’s clothing.  Jesus didn’t just say “Beware of false prophets,” He said beware of a particular kind of false prophet, that is, one who wears sheep’s clothing, which is a metaphor for a disguise one wears in order to blend in among the others unlike themselves, a disguise for the express purpose of misimpression.  If Julie wanted to wear “sheep’s clothing” and blend in among those unlike herself, the last thing in the world she would want to do is write a book (with a pitchfork on the cover) that openly denounces and argues point by point against the orthodox doctrine of eternal torment.  The kind of false prophets that Jesus warns people about are the ones that have a “covering” (a word often used to indicate that a pastor or leader is under the thumb of orthodoxy or “safe” for the impressionable sheep), and who certainly doesn’t draw the kind of attention Julie gets.

Abundant Life

(Part One) Book Review: Raising Hell

(Part Two) Book Review: Raising Hell

Test everything, hold on to what is good.

Is Death the Cut-Off for Salvation?

Book Review: Francis Chan’s Erasing Hell

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert February 22, 2013 at 6:45 pm

    Alice, we are two millennia away from Jesus earth-spoken warnings and though there have always been religious charlatans desiring to fleece the sheep, there are also well-meaning heretical teachers who firmly believe their heresies desiring to enlighten the fold. They are the persons for whom pastors must watch and protect the flock. Satan not only attacks through deceit, but also through corruption. Remember there are three other types of soils upon which seed is sown than the good soil and two of them produce notable plants and one for quite a significant time period. That one takes time to be revealed because they use all the right words, but with all the wrong meanings, just like you.

    But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. {2 Peter 2: 1 & 2}

    Don’t you see how you lead others to agree with your evil assessment of the organized church in favor of a primitive fringe group.

    They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. {1 John 2: 19}

    Alice, that’s where your conspiracy theory lands you.

    • admin February 22, 2013 at 10:06 pm

      Pay attention to that last part, “the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.” Kind of ironic, because you speak evil of the content on this blog every day!

      • Stephen Helbig February 22, 2013 at 10:54 pm

        Alice when I read Lanny’s post written on February 22, 2013 at 6:45 pm, I also thought HOW IRONIC that even denying the truth of the Lord that bought them ~ … He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only
        but also for the sins of the whole world. .. (1 John 2:2) ~ … Therefore, He (Jesus) had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:17)
        Propitiation ~– properly, to extend propitiation, showing mercy by satisfying (literally, propitiating) the wrath of God on sin; “to conciliate, appease, propitiate
        And YES … ~ Many will follow after their sensuality, through whom the way of the truth will be evil spoken of ~ ironic yes indeed.

        Alice … … Therefore, my beloved sister in the Lord Jesus Christ, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain. ~ Aren’t you glad He has called us to the ministry of reconciliation… All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

        • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2013 at 2:25 am

          Stephen, haven’t you read the rest of 2 Peter 2 and seen the end of such false teachers?

          whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not

          to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished

          made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption

          shall receive the reward of unrighteousness

          to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever

          the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

          They are described as set in their immorality without hope of repentance.

          As I wrote for Mark, so I write for you, Stephen:

          Look, Stephen, Jesus bore in His mortal earthly body our sins, so therefore only while we are yet in our mortal bodies can we have our mortal sins removed by Jesus’ death suffered on this earth. That’s where the cross is, Stephen, on this earth. That’s why He said {John 8: 21 & 24} that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Only in this life God is able to forgive sins. They were committed in this life and in this life they must be forgiven. Once you die with your sins you keep them forever and if the fire doesn’t torment you forever, your sins will.

          If you get the faith right in Jesus Christ, then you will from that moment through all eternity have no more sins based on total forgiveness. In this life after faith has rightly come does NOT mean experiential sinless perfection, but it does mean progressive sanctification while completely forgiven.

          • Stephen Helbig February 25, 2013 at 10:00 am

            … but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

            All glory to him, both now and forever! Amen.

      • Lanny A. Eichert February 23, 2013 at 12:19 am

        Alice, “the way of truth” is found in the small Conservative Fundamental segment of the gross “organized church” from which it has organizationally separated and denounced as theologically liberal and apostate for their leaving the perfect literal Holy Bible. You and your friends cry out against us, Fundamentalists, who are holding onto the Holy Bible as written. Your sort ridicule, speaking evil of, Biblical fundamentalism and you have just recently mocked the term “Biblical” in your blog. Look to yourselves for irony.

        • Lanny A. Eichert February 23, 2013 at 12:38 am

          Bird’s Eye View of Rachel Evans’ Book Posted: 17th February 2013 by admin

          “Biblical,” in my mind, is synonymous with “oppression.” I’ve seen and experienced first-hand some pretty stupid ideas about what it means to be a Biblical woman. “Biblical” is a hijacked word.

    • Patrick Strickland February 23, 2013 at 5:06 pm

      If God wants all of us Christians to pray for all men to be saved and to expect him to answer your prayer and to proclaim that he does want to save all men,(1Ti 2:1-8; 1Jn 5:14-15) then how is it an evil assessment to declare that the religious establishment is presenting the traditions of men more then the word of God when they preach most are going to burn in hell?

      • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2013 at 3:04 am

        Simply, Patrick, because Jesus said:

        Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

        Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

        his angels … shall gather … all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

        {See Matthew 7: 13, 14, 21; 13: 41 & 42}

        And you fail to recognize “all” has limited meanings in the Scriptures.
        And there is no salvation after physical death
        And the Scriptures record no unbelieving persons saved after physical death

        Salvation is a sin issue which can only be handled by God in this mortal life as I wrote:
        Jesus bore in His mortal earthly body our sins, so therefore only while we are yet in our mortal bodies can we have our mortal sins removed by Jesus’ death suffered on this earth. That’s where the cross is: on this earth. That’s why He said {John 8: 21 & 24} that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. Only in this life God is able to forgive sins. They were committed in this life and in this life they must be forgiven. Once you die with your sins you keep them forever and if the fire doesn’t torment you forever, your sins will.

        Most are going to burn in hell and it is an evil assessment to proclaim organized religion has conspired by fear of hell to hold the masses captive to their rule. The threat of hell is as real as the numbers: are you in the majority? Likely so.

        Everybody in the natural is going to hell and the only way to prevent that is to preach to them the God-man Jesus died on the cross with their sins in His own body. Why? Because in love He provided the way to remove all their sins if they’d only believe it is done for them; and then they’ll miss hell and go straight to heaven when they die.

        If you get the faith right in Jesus Christ, then you will from that moment through all eternity have no more sins based on total forgiveness. In this life after faith has rightly come does NOT mean experiential sinless perfection, but it does mean progressive sanctification while completely forgiven.

        But you have to have the CORRECT faith or you burn with the majority.

        • Patrick Strickland March 1, 2013 at 2:46 pm

          Hi Lanny
          I truly appreciate you taking the time to share with me what you think and for answering my question.

          “And you fail to recognize “all” has limited meanings in the Scriptures.”

          Since I have previously stated that “all” is a context sensitive word and can mean less then all depending on statements that can be made in the context that will modify it to less then every one. So I don’t see how your opinion can be seriously considered as a true statement, since I do recognize “all” can have in many cases a limited meaning. Now I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you missed that point in the volumes I have written to you, which is a possibility and therefore you are speaking out of ignorance, and for that reason I apologize to you for the following statement; but if you read my statement in a previous post then you know it is nothing but an outright lie and you need to repent for fabricating a statement that you know is a lie. Christians are not allowed to lie willingly, so if I was you I would get right with God.

          Now I do remember challenging you to point out any statement in context that can alter or modify “All” as in everyone, the whole to less then all in the scriptures I have quoted; which you have yet to do. Now if you can show any modifiers in the context of the following verses that alter “all saved” to anything less then the whole human race as being saved, then I will be happy to accept what you are saying. OTHERWISE YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY RECONSIDER AND REPENT of your denominations doctrines and seek God to show you the truth of his will.

          1Ti 2:1-8 KJV I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time. (7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
          1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of ALL acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. (11) These things command and teach.

          Isa 45:18-25 KJV For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (19) I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. (20) Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. (21) Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) LOOK UNTO ME, AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR. (24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. (25) In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

          Act 17:28-31 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For WE ARE ALSO HIS OFFSPRING. (29) Forasmuch then as WE ARE THE OFFSPRING OF GOD, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but NOW COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT: (31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given FAITH to ALL MEN, in that he hath raised him from out of the dead.

          Eph 1:9-11 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one ALL IN CHRIST, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL after the counsel of his own will:

          Col 1:19-22 KJV For it pleased the Father that IN HIM should ALL fulness dwell; (20) And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, THROUGH him to reconcile ALL INTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled (22) In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

          “And there is no salvation after physical death.
          And the Scriptures record no unbelieving persons saved after physical death”

          That first statement is just your opinion, nothing more then that. The second statement has already been proven false by scripture; but your belief in hell just won’t let you believe them. Ezekiel 16 states two examples of Sodom and Samaria being restored. Romans 11 describes the natural branches being broken off because of unbelief. What happens to branches that are broken off They die. So how can they repent and start believing and become grafted back in if there is no after death repentance? After that example is given concerning grafting the natural branches back into the olive tree they came from; then Paul says that ALL Israel will be saved. Most Israel has died never knowing their Messiah yet Paul is convinced that all Israel will be saved. The fourth example is when Jesus went down to hell and preached to the rebellious and led them back to heaven and gave them gifts. Eternal life is the gift of God, Eternal torture is never described as a gift. God gave gifts to men, even the rebellious, so that he might dwell among them.

          1Pe 3:18-20 KJV For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

          Eph 4:7-10 KJV But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (8) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (9) (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? (10) He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

          Psa 68:18 KJV Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

          The sin issue you discuss was completely dealt with at the cross of Christ. All died when he died. All men are forgiven for all time for all the sins that they have committed in their lives. God reconciled all men to himself at that time. God is not holding any man accountable for the sins they have done 2 Cor 5:19. This truth does not change if someone does not believe. God does not change his mind and suddenly holds them accountable for the sins he has forgiven them of because they die without believing. God has reconciled all men into himself. God’s faith does not change just because some man does not believe Rom 3:3. Men only need to be reconciled in their minds to God 2 Cor 5:20.

          If a prisoner on death row is given a pardon it does not matter if he does not believe the pardon is real and wants to stay to receive his punishment, or if someone outside the prison wants him to finish out his punishment, the warden will kick him out, no matter what anyone else thinks. Jesus paid the price to pardon all men and it does not matter if they believe it or not they will benefit from the pardon given to them; and the goodness of God will lead all men to repentance Rom 2:4. This pardon is effective even after death since the warden has the keys to the prison called death and hell and has the POWER to raise people from the dead just by speaking to them Rev 1:18. Death won’t stop him from exercising any man’s pardon for the sins they have committed: and as we have all died in Adam so shall we all be made alive in Christ Romans 5.

          “But you have to have the CORRECT faith or you burn with the majority.”

          So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the “rhema” of God – that which is proceeding out of his mouth- “word” of God. If you have not heard God speak to you and teach you exactly what he meant by what he had written in His word concerning salvation, then how can you be sure that the faith you are advocating is CORRECT since faith ONLY COMES BY HEARING HIM SPEAKING to you?

          As to burning with the majority in the sense you suggest that is not a possibility for many reasons one being since I have prayed his will for ALL MEN to be saved and I am one of ALL then if I burn in hell as you suppose, God would have to have lied when he said He would give to me what I have prayed as long as it is according to his will. That won’t happen. Therefore since I am praying in faith without doubting His will for all men to be saved, I am doing His will and I have a promise from God that I will receive what I prayed for. Second all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved which I have done. In fact every thing that men require for someone to be saved I have done from asking him to forgive me, to asking him into me, to giving him my heart and even water baptism, and even being filled with the holy ghost. What ever any man required I have done. More important I quit doing just what men wanted me to do to earn salvation and learned to just receive the free gift God has given me and now I am learning to walk out of what I have in him and I am no longer trying to earn salvation.

          2Co 8:9-12 KJV For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (10) And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. (11) Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. (12) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

          But I do have to draw a line at ridiculous expectations like you insisting that I am going to hell if I don’t believe in it the way you do. and I must ask you for the passage that says if I don’t believe in eternal torment in hell I am not going to be saved? I personally have never found such a passage, and I have searched for it; and the reason I can’t find it is simple… it just does not exist except in the mind of men who trust their denominations teaching above the Holy spirit teaching them the scripture. This is just like you insisting that God predestines and foreknows most men for eternal torment in hell which also is a concept that does not exist in scripture. Both concepts only exist in the minds of carnal minded religious men who use it to frighten and control men; and in the minds of worldly men who use the idea of hell to sell books and movies so they can make lots of money. Hell is big business. Hell is making billions of dollars every year.

          However the scriptural truth is ALL men are going to be salted with fire Mark 9:49. Jesus is going to come into his temple which we are as a refiners fire and a fullers soap Mal 3:1,2; I Cor 3:16,17;6:19. All men”s works are going to be tried with fire, many will suffer loss yet they shall ALL be saved as by fire I Cor 3:11-15. And if you only think that just means believers then check out the judgment seat of Christ which traditionally has been taught to be the believers judgment for rewards.

          2Co 5:10 KJV For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

          The judgment seat of Christ is the judgment of fire described in I cor chapter 3:11-15 Both passages describes judgment on our lives because of what we do in our bodies. Now check out how Paul expounds upon the judgment seat of Christ in the following verses, pay particular attention to what scripture he quotes from the old testament to prove who “all” are that shows up at the judgment seat of Christ.

          Rom 14:10-13 KJV But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. (11) For it is written, (I love this scripture from Isa 45 it shows up in the darnedest places!) AS I LIVE SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. (12) So then EVERY ONE OF US shall give account of himself to God. (13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.

          So every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses that in him they have righteousness and strength or as the new testament says Jesus Christ is Lord will be there at the judgment seat of Christ to be judged for what they do in their bodies and the fire of God will burn up all the wood, hay, and stubble of the life of the old man ie the tare we have built upon the foundation of Christ and only the gold the silver and the precious stones of the life of the new man the wheat will remain upon the foundation. Many will suffer great loss because they have only built with that which is combustible yet they shall be saved as by fire because the foundation remains in their life after the fire. This fire is the same fire that burns man’s works in Revelation.

          Rev 20:11-15 KJV And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

          The old man the tare that satan planted who we think we are from birth will not come out of the lake of fire. His name, nature, and character was never written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world, which is the life of Christ in us, Christ is our true identity: so the fire will destroy the old man and every thought, desire, lust, and idol that that prevents Christ from being seen in that persons life. All the good and all the bad he has done will be completely burned up, the only thing that will remain is the life of Christ, and any gold, silver, and precious stones we may have built upon that foundation. The fire will only purify the gold, silver and precious stones, and make them even more valuable to God. And anything we have built upon that foundation which remains we will receive a reward from God. Most will suffer great loss of self – who they think they were in this life, and all they have worked to do will be completely consumed in the flames, and they shall not receive a reward from God but they shall be saved. If any man seek to save his life they shall lose it and if any shall lose their life they shall preserve it Luke 17:33.

          Every Man’s works are being judged and that is found in each and every one of those passages I cor 3:11-15 has it, 2 Cor 5:10 has it, Romans 14:10-13 has it, and Revelation 20:11-15 has it. Each of these passages are describing the same judgment but from different perspectives, and each add a measure of new information to our understanding of judgment upon men for their works. The bible says out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. John and Paul both bore witness to the judgment upon man for the works that they have done. But the facts that clearly supports my position is what Paul states “ If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ” and that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess” are the very ones who are going to be at the judgments seat of Christ “the rewards judgment of the believers”, according to tradition, for what they have done in their bodies. So that must mean that every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, that in him they have righteousness and strength must be a believer, or they would not be there at the judgment for rewards. Huh I wonder how that is possible since according to you and most of the church system most are burning in hell forever with no chance for after death repentance and do not show up to that judgment?

          What a wonderful contradiction you are left with. This is a hole you could drive a mack truck through. Face it that garbage that men have taught you as truth is not going to stand much longer!!! God won’t let it!!! The truth is coming out!!! And the lie is being exposed for what it is!!! The wall that men have built with untempered mortar is coming down EZE 13 and the hail is going to sweep away every lie, and your covenant with death shall be disannulled and your agreement with hell shall not stand!!!

          Isa 28:16-19 KJV Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. (17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. (18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. (19) From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

          So what is the hail you may ask?

          Psa 18:13 KJV The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

          It is nothing less then the voice of God, the voice of truth coming out of his mouth in authority to pound all lies into rubble, and to destroy every man’s agreement with hell.

          So I will leave you with that last contradiction to ponder upon.

          Till next time grace and peace Patrick

          • Stephen Helbig March 2, 2013 at 8:54 am

            … And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; … ye shall be trodden down by it. From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: …

            … It is nothing less then the voice of God, the voice of truth coming out of his mouth in authority to pound all lies into rubble, and to destroy every man’s agreement with hell. …

            p.s. ~ Sometimes the best one can do is not think carnally as simple men ,… do not wonder or imagine vain things… do not obsess with fear and worry, ~ for “YOU ARE LOVED BY GOD”… just breathe in and exercise the FAITH HE HAS GIVEN … Everything will work out for the Best… God’s promise is ~ that “abundant” LIFE FOREVERMORE

            p.s.s. ~ Patrick, I greatly appreciate His wisdom ~ Christ in you

        • Lanny A. Eichert March 3, 2013 at 12:53 am

          Patrick, I’ve given you other Scriptures which prohibit your all inclusive salvation ideas, especially Matthew 7: 14 & 21 and also that there are no Scriptural accounts of anybody being saved after having physically died in unbelief. Your false faith has no foundation except in your distorted interpretations wherein you suppose your god saves everybody. You do NOT have a single text that says so.

          Jesus is the Saviour of all men is as far as it goes and it does NOT say He actually saves everybody. It only identifies Him as the Saviour. Likewise God’s desire to save everybody is stated, but not the actual accomplishing of it. Don’t you see that you push the statements beyond what they actually state, because that’s what you want them to say? You put your ideas into God’s words.

          Since you are willing to state that all is not always all in every use, then why will you not concede that God does not save everybody? Why do you not see that to date your god’s record of his purpose to save everybody is wowfully lacking regarding this life and that existence after they physically die in unbelief? Don’t you realize how large the number is of those he failed to save thus far is compared to those he has already saved in this life? Your god’s track record is horrible showing he would rather more persons suffer than be blessed by salvaton’s purpose?

          Please realize what you propose. Jesus is against you, poor dear fellow.

          • Patrick Strickland March 4, 2013 at 7:32 pm

            Lanny you are faced with no small problem…Your interpretation of Matthew 7 where you read into the text what is not there thereby changing it, is not an all inclusive proof at all. By reading into those passages “never enter” and “never return” into your interpretation of what you think Matthew 7 says you actually change the passages meaning to fit what tradition has taught you thereby making the sworn word of God impossible to be fulfilled. Matthew 7 CANNOT make the sworn word of God null and void which is found in Isa 45!!! If your interpretation does that then then your interpretation is flat out wrong!!!! There is no other passage in ALL of the bible with a command to look and be saved, that is described as going out of his mouth in righteousness and shall not return to him, and is sworn by his own name. Because of how God has phrased this promise it makes it unique and very special in all of scripture: this promise in Isiah 45 is THE PRIME PROMISE IN ALL SCRIPTURE and must be absolutely fulfilled. It is his purpose. It is going to come to pass. Nothng can stop it from coming to pass. All scripture must be fulfilled especially what God has sworn to do which is for all the ends of the earth to look and BE SAVED, this word has gone forth in righteousness and shall not return to him void but it shall accomplish what HE SENT IT TO DO! Scripture even bears witness that all the ends of the earth have looked and seen the salvation of their God.

            Psa 98:3 KJV He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

            He has sworn by his own name that every knee will bow and every tongue shall confess that in hm they have righteousness and strength. This will happen!!! This is immutable and unchangeable, and is based upon His own character namely He cannot lie. The traditions of men have made the immutable unchangeable word of God a lie. Have you not figured this out yet?

            Since I have provided four examples from scripture of after death repentance why do you keep insisting there are none in scripture? Ignoring that they are there is not dealing with the scriptures I have brought up. Saying they are not there is just lying to yourself. Hey if you want to be dishonest with yourself because you want to believe a lie more then you want to believe the sworn word of truth then you are more then welcome to do just that. But don’t expect me to fall for the deception you have..

            Lanny said,”Jesus is the Saviour of all men is as far as it goes and it does NOT say He actually saves everybody.”

            Maybe you have not thought about what you have read, and the actual tenses used.

            1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

            THAT IS NOT A FUTURE TENSE USED THERE IS IT? Absolutely not it is a present tense. “Who is the saviour of ALL men” “Is “ is in the present indicative. Who is the saviour of ALL men is not an idle wish as you suppose, but is clearly talking about God being the saviour right now.

            The command in Isaiah is even stronger to all the ends of the earth, “Look and be ye saved All who look are saved. “Be” can be defined as: To exist in actuality; have life or reality to take place; occur: salvation for all the ends of the earth is a reality, an actuality that will occur.

            If you noticed the all the ends of the earth “have seen” the salvation of our God. Have seen is in the perfect present which indicates the completion of action. They don’t just get to look at the salvation of their God but because of the command of God they get to experience the reality, the actuality of salvation that comes from looking at the cross of christ.

            Perfect Definition: A type of tense that indicates the completion of action. In English, the perfect tenses are formed by using “to have” followed by the past participle.

            Perfect tenses are all in the indicative mood: the present perfect (I have seen), past perfect (I had seen,), future perfect (I will have seen,) and conditional perfect (I would have seen.). The past perfect is also known as the pluperfect.

            The present perfect is a grammatical combination of the present tense and the perfect aspect, used to express a past event that has present consequences.

            What Jesus did at the cross will continue to have results. Throughout time to all the ends of the earth.

            Unlike you who have to add ideas when he reads the scripture I don’t have to push my ideas into the word at all I can read what is there word or word without adding anything. Maybe you should try it some time. When I say that Jesus is the saviour of all men especially of those that believe, you can actually find a verse that says that.

            1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

            Lanny said: “Why do you not see that to date your god’s record of his purpose to save everybody is wowfully lacking regarding this life and that existence after they physically die in unbelief? Don’t you realize how large the number is of those he failed to save thus far is compared to those he has already saved in this life? Your god’s track record is horrible showing he would rather more persons suffer than be blessed by salvaton’s purpose?”

            It does not matter how bad you assume His track record is for saving all men in this earth. He swears to save all men and He is absolutely trustworthy, so that means that he does save them even after death which is far better result then your view of God’s track record.

            In your view He swears to save all men and does not, in fact he tortures most forever. Talk about a track record of suffering. Talk about failing to keep his immutable word. Talk about a God who would rather promise a false hope so he can make billions suffer for his sick twisted enjoyment then actually bringing them into the salvation he promised them. God must be a Sadist going out of his way to insure most get tortured forever, but promising salvation to all men yet denying men the opportunity to actually enjoy it so He can get a kick out of his whips and chains, and fire.

            I think you have it completely backwards. In my view suffering ends eventually. When all are saved and restored back into Christ.

            In your view God continues the suffering men have in this life and turns it up to an unending unimaginable magnitude.

            God swears by himself to save all men. And they are in his timing. It cannot be any other way it must now occur. His very name is now on the line.

            In your view God swears by his name to save all men and he doesn’t do it; what a liar He is. What a loser. And you have the gall to compare that loser to the real God You should be ashamed of yourself for believing the doctrines of men that make the word of God of none effect in your life.
            I noticed that you keep calling my faith false yet my “false” faith can do what your so called “real” faith cannot do.

            1Jn 5:14-15 KJV And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

            If you can find any verse that has God’s will in it you can pray it and you can fully expect God to completely answer that prayer. That is what that scripture says does it not?

            Every man woman and child has this promise to receive what they pray for as long as it is according to His will. It is clear that It is God’s will to save all men. So if you can pray his will without doubting then you are assured of an answer. Why do you keep living in denial of this truth?
            1Ti 2:3-6 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

          • Lanny A. Eichert March 13, 2013 at 1:19 am

            Patrick, by your quote of Psa 98:3 KJV He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

            Are you demanding all who have physically died were saved while still on earth? How can that be? Because what God has sworn to do which is for all the ends of the earth to look and BE SAVED? Don’t you see “for all the ends of the EARTH” means in this life only? You are saying they HAVE seen, they have looked, therefore they are saved. Where’s faith, dear Patrick? For your useage it is bound up in seeing, isn’t it? Don’t you see you have all the ends of the earth seeing in faith and therefore saved BEFORE they died and leave this earth’s life? You have NOBODY going to hell. Why is there even hell-fire and the Lake of Fire in the Bible if according to you nobody goes there because all the ends of the earth are saved?

            Your logic is horrible. You distort Matthew 7: 13 & 14 to fit your distorted Isaiah 45, when you should keep Matthew 7: 13 & 14 and rethink Isaiah 45 as Messianic rather than universal

            {Messianic means the literal one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ over the entire earth from David’s throne in Jerusalem.}

            • Patrick Strickland March 28, 2013 at 2:44 pm

              Lanny has asked; “Are you demanding all who have physically died were saved while still on earth?”

              Nope, they were not all saved when they were living on the earth. According to scripture if you can believe, They were all saved long before the world began which salvation was made manifest at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

              2Ti 1:9-10 KJV Who HATH SAVED US (past tense), AND CALLED US WITH AN HOLY CALLING, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN TO US (past tense) IN CHRIST JESUS BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, (10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

              I remember the last time someone asked me “How long have you been saved?” Which was almost thirty years ago in 1986. Before that fateful day I was asked more times then I can remember, and I always answered with how many years since the summer of 1980 when I accepted the Lord as my saviour: but this time I did not even have time to think about answering; God got into my mouth and answered the question before I even had a chance to. His presence was so strong I had rarely felt it in the six years since I accepted Him as my saviour as strong as it was that day. But what I answered shocked me and the person I was talking to: without hesitating I answered her question, “Since before the foundation of the world.” Needless to say within minutes she made an excuse and left me there standing pondering what just came out of my mouth never to be seen again. Funny thing is that since that day I have never been asked that question again?

              It took me a while but I found that verse in 2 Timothy which verified what came out of my mouth. Paul also substantiated it in Titus.

              Tit 1:1-2 KJV Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; (2) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

              We must all understand that Salvation is progressive, we have been saved, we are being saved, and we shall be saved. Even 2 Corinthian verifies this truth.

              2Co 1:10 KJV Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;

              2Co 1:10 BBE Who gave us salvation from so great a death: on whom we have put our hope that he will still go on to give us salvation;

              2Co 1:10 Rotherham Who, out of so great a death, rescued us, and will rescue,—unto whom we have turned our hope, that, even yet, he will rescue:

              In eternity he saved us long before anything was created but in time our salvation was manifested when Jesus died and was lifted up on the cross two thousand years ago. He was lifted up on the cross just like the brass serpent was lifted up on a pole, and all snake bit Jews who were dying who looked were saved. Jesus said that if I be lifted up I will draw (drag) all men to me, this spoke he of his death. So all will be drawn (dragged) to Jesus and they will see themselves in Christ on the cross there two thousand years ago that when He died they died there. They will see the brazen serpent He is the antitype of and when they look upon Him on the cross they will be saved made whole and healed. They will see the salvation of their God, and BE SAVED. There are aspects of salvation that are past present and future. All men were created in Christ Jesus and given salvation and grace before the world began. In time though millions have lived, are living and shall live and die never seeing or even hearing about the salvation of the Lord in their life times. Yet all must hear and be drawn (dragged) to see the salvation of their God that they were given in Him from before the world began when God crucified Christ. Death is not going to stop Jesus from speaking to them and giving them faith, and raising them up again and showing them that they all died in Him at the cross. Many have been privileged to accept salvation during their lifetime and God has been gracious to them. Many more will hear God speak to them causing them to have faith and they will be raised up and shown the salvation of their God after death.

              Concerning faith there is something I need to show you from scripture you have previously quoted. I can understand if you did not see it because the KJV does not translate pistis as faith in that verse, but as assurance.

              Act 17:28-31 KJV For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. (29) Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (30) And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (31) Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

              Act 17:31 EWB-CB Because He … appointed a day, in the which He is about to judge the world in righteousness by a Man Whom He … determined; having afforded faith unto all men, having raised Him from the dead.

              Now I want you to notice the word “afford” or “hath given” in the King James version. In the Greek it is parecho and means to reach forth, offer, to show, afford, supply, to be the authors of, or to cause one to have

              Websters defines afford as To yield or produce as fruit, profit, issues, or result. Thus, the earth affords grain; a well affords water; trade affords profit; distilled liquors afford spirit.

              God has afforded faith to all men, faith is a fruit and God is the author and cause of all men having faith once they hear Him speaking to them. God lives in eternity and can see that he has already given faith to all men. But we live in time and that is why scripture can also say that not all men have faith at this present time because they have not heard his voice speaking to them 2 Th 3:2. Remember faith comes by hearing and hearing by a rheama spoken word that is proceeding right now out of his mouth word of God. God has commanded all men to repent. No matter how long it takes they will all repent. God has afforded faith to all men and no matter how long it takes they shall all hear His voice and have faith in his due time. All men were crucified in him all men were raised in him and all men are given His faith as their faith. The only question is when will all men enter into the reality of these truths for themselves. Some will enter into these truth before death and many will only enter after death, after they hear His voice speak to them, and raise them out of death.

              “Because what God has sworn to do which is for all the ends of the earth to look and BE SAVED? Don’t you see “for all the ends of the Earth” means in this life only?”

              Sorry Lanny I respectfully don’t agree, The All the ends of the earth is a figure of speech for all men who have lived or will ever live in the future upon this earth. The limitation of a man’s lifetime is not even hinted at in circumstances of the context as the only time available to man to look and be saved. Granted it would be much more desirable for a man to accept in their lifetime, so that they can have an opportunity to build upon the foundation of Christ the gold, silver and precious stones which will result in rewards after the fire passes through their life trying their works. Which is much better then not accepting him in their life and building only with wood hay and stubble upon the foundation which is Christ and after the fire tries their works not receiving a reward because nothing remains upon the foundation. But still they are saved.

              This we previously discussed but I feel I need to repeat it in case you want to say that is only the judgment of rewards for the believers in I cor 3. Now If you can provide a verse in scripture that says that there is no repentance available to man after death I would be interested in reading it.

              However the scriptural truth is ALL men are going to be salted with fire Mark 9:49. Jesus is going to come into his temple which we are as a refiners fire and a fullers soap Mal 3:1,2; I Cor 3:16,17;6:19. All men”s works are going to be tried with fire, many will suffer loss yet they shall ALL be saved as by fire I Cor 3:11-15. And if you only think that just means believers then check out the judgment seat of Christ which traditionally has been taught to be the believers judgment for rewards.

              2Co 5:10 KJV For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
              The judgment seat of Christ is the judgment of fire described in I cor chapter 3:11-15 Both passages describes judgment on our lives because of what we do in our bodies. Now check out how Paul expounds upon the judgment seat of Christ in the following verses, pay particular attention to what scripture he quotes from the old testament to prove who “all” are that shows up at the judgment seat of Christ.
              Rom 14:10-13 KJV But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. (11) For it is written, (I love this scripture from Isa 45 it shows up in the darnedest places!) AS I LIVE SAITH THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL CONFESS TO GOD. (12) So then EVERY ONE OF US shall give account of himself to God. (13) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
              So every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses that in him they have righteousness and strength or as the new testament says Jesus Christ is Lord will be there to be judged for what they do in their bodies and the fire of God will burn up all the wood, hay, and stubble of the life of the old man ie the tare we have built upon the foundation of Christ and only the gold the silver and the precious stones of the life of the new man the wheat will remain upon the foundation. Many will suffer great loss because they have only built with that which is combustible yet they shall be saved as by fire because the foundation remains in their life after the fire. This fire is the same fire that burns man’s works in Revelation.

              Rev 20:11-15 KJV And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

              The old man the tare that satan planted who we think we are from birth will not come out of the lake of fire. His name, nature, and character was never written in the lambs book of life from the foundation of the world, which is the life of Christ in us, Christ is our true identity: so the fire will destroy the old man and every thought, desire, lust, and idol that that prevents Christ from being seen in that persons life. All the good and all the bad he has done will be completely burned up, the only thing that will remain is the life of Christ, and any gold, silver, and precious stones we may have built upon that foundation. The fire will only purify the gold, silver and precious stones, and make them even more valuable to God. And anything we have built upon that foundation which remains we will receive a reward from God. Most will suffer great loss of self – who they think they were in this life, and all they have worked to do will be completely consumed in the flames, and they shall not receive a reward from God but they shall be saved. If any man seek to save his life they shall lose it and if any shall lose their life they shall preserve it Luke 17:33.

              Every Man’s works are being judged and that is found in each and every one of those passages I cor 3:11-15 has it, 2 Cor 5:10 has it, Romans 14:10-13 has it, and Revelation 20:11-15 has it. Each of these passages are describing the same judgment but from different perspectives, and each add a measure of new information to our understanding of judgment upon men for their works. The bible says out of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. John and Paul both bore witness to the judgment upon man for the works that they have done. But the facts that clearly supports my position is what Paul states “ If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ” and that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess are the very ones who are going to be at the judgments seat of Christ “the rewards judgment of the believers”, according to tradition, for what they have done in their bodies. So that must mean that every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses Jesus Christ is Lord, that in him they have righteousness and strength must be a believer, or they would not be there at the judgment for rewards. Huh I wonder how that is possible since according to you and most of the church system most are burning in hell forever with no chance for after death repentance and do not show up to that judgment?

              What a wonderful contradiction you are left with. This is a hole you could drive a mack truck through. Face it that garbage that men have taught you as truth is not going to stand much longer!!! God won’t let it!!! The truth is coming out!!! And the lie is being exposed for what it is!!! The wall that men have built with untempered mortar is coming down EZE 13 and the hail is going to sweep away every lie, and your covenant with death shall be disannulled and your agreement with hell shall not stand!!!

              Isa 28:16-19 KJV Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. (17) Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. (18) And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. (19) From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

              So what is the hail you may ask?

              Psa 18:13 KJV The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

              It is nothing less then the voice of God, the voice of truth coming out of his mouth in authority to pound all lies into rubble, and to destroy every man’s agreement with hell.

              You say that my logic is horrible the burden of proof lies with you, Just making a statement without evidence of how it is horrible is nothing more than just an opinion nothing more. Isa 45 is a unique promise in scripture and has to be fulfilled as a sworn word of God as a word that has gone forth in righteousness and shall not return it will accomplish what he sent it to do. Matthew seven is not a sworn word of God and your interpretation of it makes the sworn word null and void. You are free to hold to your position for as long as you like, but in the end It is you who will have to rethink his position.

              Now let us consider an illustration of a legal contract in an inheritance.
              A rich farmer has a son who has moved away from home, and he dies leaving a will that says that the son gets all that he owns. Now if he would have left the contract at that, then the son would never have to visit the farm, He could just put it up for sale and enjoy the benefits of the money once it sold. The son could do anything with it he wanted. But if he puts a clause in the will that says the son must live and work the farm for three years at a profit, before he gets all the property as his, then the son is faced with a situation where if he wants to sell the land for the money he has to move and work the farm for three years at profit or he does not get the full inheritance. Now if there is a clause in the will that says that he cannot sell the land, then he cannot sell it. He could lease it out for someone else to use but he cannot legally sell it.

              Isa 45 is the main promise of inheritance in God’s contract. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in him they have righteousness and strength, or as the new testament states Jesus Christ is Lord. This is a sworn word of God and is now immutable it must come to pass. But there are clauses in the contract that guarantee that everyone who knee bows and their tongue confesses will have a relationship and are doing the will of God. They will not be just giving empty lip service to God, and enter into salvation being the sinner that they were in this life. Now Matthew seven is that clause in the contract that states that not every one who calls Jesus Lord will enter the kingdom Unless they are actually having a relationship with God and are doing the will of God. Every time a man may present himself before God and is not doing the will of God but fools himself into thinking he is and has a relationship with God, that man will be told by God depart from me I never knew you. But once that man repents and actually develops a relationship with God to the point that he actually is DOING THE WILL OF HIS FATHER; and knows that he has righteousness and strength in him, and that Jesus is actually Lord of every area of his life then he will be able to enter into the kingdom of His father. God is not going to just stop working on getting an individual to that point by just eternally tormenting them. That is nothing less then breach of his sworn contract with us. God is love and love never fails so what he has set out to do He will accomplish it, and at the dispensation of the fulness of time He will gather together all into Christ.

            • Lanny A. Eichert March 28, 2013 at 4:39 pm

              Patrick, your “Yet all must hear and be drawn” can only happen in this life according to the text “all the ends of the earth.” Once dead they are no longer citizens of earth. Don’t you get it? The invitation is given ONLY to earth dwellers. You cannot show me in Scripture an invitation to anybody else.

              Your profound error is you lack of acknowledging the Holy Bible is addressed to saints, not all unbelievers. Your “take” is that all of humanity is addressed. God’s promises are only for saints.

              You are wishing what is not and making a claim for it.

              • Patrick Strickland April 7, 2013 at 2:23 pm

                Lanny has said

                “Patrick, your “Yet all must hear and be drawn” can only happen in this life according to the text “all the ends of the earth.” Once dead they are no longer citizens of earth. Don’t you get it? The invitation is given ONLY to earth dwellers. You cannot show me in Scripture an invitation to anybody else.”

                Lanny I hate to inform you that in Isaiah 45:22 there is not an invitation given to anyone. Instead “Look and be saved” in the Hebrew is in the qal imperative, where the imperative is a COMMAND and not an invitation at all.

                Lanny do you have a verse that clearly equates the figure of speech “all the ends of the earth” to just a man’s lifetime? I have looked and I can’t find it. If you can’t provide that connection then all you are expressing is just your opinion, nothing more.

                However I did find a few interesting verses. There is a clear connection with all the ends of the earth seeing the salvation of their God with seeing the events surrounding Jesus crucifixion. Many nations and kings who have never heard or even seen the salvation of Jesus shall see and consider it.

                Isa 52:7-15 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! (8) Thy watchmen shall lift up the voice; with the voice together shall they sing: for they shall see eye to eye, when the LORD shall bring again Zion. (9) Break forth into joy, sing together, ye waste places of Jerusalem: for the LORD hath comforted his people, he hath redeemed Jerusalem. (10) The LORD hath made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH shall see the salvation of our God. (11) Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the LORD. (12) For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rereward. (13) Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. (14) As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: (15) So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

                Did you know that Jesus is called the Lord of both the dead and the living?

                Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

                And as the Lord of the dead and the living his dominion extends from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth. Psa 72:8-11 Jesus has the keys to death and hell Rev 1:18. All He has to do is speak and the dead shall rise out of death and the grave (Sheol in the Hebrew and hades in the Greek are both translated as grave and hell) into life.

                Joh 5:24-25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth into him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death into life. (25) Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

                Now traditionally where is hell? According to everything I have ever heard Hell is in the earth somewhere, and being in the earth it is included as a part of all the ends of the earth, which is under his jurisdiction. Now I realize that you may not realize it but there has not been one person born who is not in God’s eyes dead in their trespasses and sins. Every person is spiritually “the living dead”, and they don’t have to die and be buried in a grave to be considered dead in Adam. Even religious men who are alive, especially Pharisees are considered to be graves in scriptures Luke 11:44. Now to ensure that all men are truly dead when Jesus died for all, ALL died in Him.

                2Co 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

                Every person who has ever been born or who will ever be born into this earth was included in Christ at his death and are already dead. They don’t have to die physically to have already met the appointment of death. Jesus has already met the one time appointment of death for every man woman and child. They do not know this glorious truth because the traditions of men won’t teach it,; but it does not change it as a reality of the spirit. Everyone died at the cross with Jesus and in God’s timing everyone will absolutely know this fact.

                Heb 9:24-28 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: (25) Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; (26) For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in THE END OF THE WORLD hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (27) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin into salvation.

                Verse 27 should never be read alone and taken out of context like it has been by many denominations when they quote it at almost every funeral telling us there is a future judgment for those who die. Sadly for those who do take it out of context The sentence does not end at verse 27 but continues into verse 28. Jesus put away every ones sin at ‘The end of the world” by the sacrifice of himself. He obliterated (The phrase “blotted out” in the Greek actually means obliterated) the hand writing of ordinances that was against us and nailed them to his cross. Col 2:14 When we die, if we have not accepted Him as our lord and savior does not change the truth that there is no handwriting of ordinances against us that we must burn in hell forever for. No one is going to burn forever for something that no longer exists since it was nailed to the cross and totally obliterated. God however will try our works by fire; and anything that we built upon this foundation which burns we will suffer loss for and anything that remains we will receive a reward for yet we shall all be saved as by fire. 1 cor 311-15 It is not appointed unto men to die twice, but only once; and since Jesus offered up himself to bear the sins of the whole world, then He met that one time appointment for all.

                So this leads me to the obvious conclusion that ALL repentance mankind may do is after death repentance.

                Whether you realize it or not we are all now in the judgment. And only those who will have heard his voice and have been quickened out of death into life will have boldness in this day of judgment upon the earth we are now in. These men who are no longer dead know by the revelation of the spirit of God that “as he is so are they in this world”, who have their love made perfect in this truth of God.

                1Jn 4:16-19 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (17) Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. (18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (19) We love him, because he first loved us.

                The doctrine of hell is a doctrine of fear and has tormented millions throughout the ages and has not allowed any one who believes in it to become perfect in love. Parents have murdered and killed their children so they do not reach the age of accountability and have a chance to miss heaven. Insane asylums are full of people who have gone mad thinking about it. The doctrine does not produce one good fruit, and does not allow the fruit of love to grow to maturity in any who believe in it.

                Jesus clearly said that “If I be lifted up from the earth, I will drag all men unto myself.” This spake he of his death at the cross John 12:32, 33. Why are ALL going to be dragged? To ensure that ALL look and be saved as Isa 45:22 commands all to do. Jesus declared that he would be lifted up upon a pole like the brass serpent in the old testament was. All serpent bitten dying men who looked at that serpent that Moses lifted up were made whole and lived. All men are going to be dragged in God’s timing to look at Jesus upon the cross and they will be made whole.

                We know that many in this world have lived and died never having heard of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the world. In your opinion and the opinion of many that believe like you do this is the end for them. But this is no hindrance for Jesus who has the power and can simply speak to the individual and they will come to life so they can be dragged to see Jesus who was lifted up on the cross and be saved-be made whole, healed. When they look they will see that they were there in Christ all the time. When he died they died. All the ends of the earth are commanded to look and be saved. This has gone forth in righteousness and will not return to The Father void, but it shall accomplish what He sent it to do,. And what God has sworn by His name will come to pass every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that In him they have righteousness and strength. EVERY KNEE THAT BOWS AND EVERY TONGUE THAT CONFESSES THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD SHALL APPEAR AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST. {And unfortunately for you tradition teaches that this judgment is for believers rewards, and no unbeliever appears there. However every knee that bows and every tongue that confesses jesus christ is lord shall be there.} This is an immutable unchangeable truth of scripture. Anything less then this mars, and dishonors God character, and causes him to be nothing less then the greatest liar there is.

                Rom 14:9-12 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. (10) But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. (11) For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (12) So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

                1Co 3:11-15 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. (14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

                2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

                Jesus is the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world. Now did He die and take away the sins of the world? How you answer that question determines what you believe. I believe he absolutely did. You do not. I believe that at the dispensation of the fulness of time that All are going to be gathered into one into Christ Jesus because of what he did at the cross.

                Grace and peace Patrick

              • Lanny A. Eichert April 10, 2013 at 1:07 am

                Patrick, if it was God’s plan to save everybody, then why aren’t their names in the Book of Life wriitten there from the foundation of the world? {See the Revelation 17: 8 and 20: 15}

                Did God forget the names of everybody He planned before the foundation of the world to save? If they were in Christ before the foundation of the world is it possible for God to forget to write their names in the Book of Life?

                • Patrick Strickland April 11, 2013 at 1:51 pm

                  A person’s “name” in the bible signifies their nature and character. The only name written in the Lamb’s book of life, is the name of Christ. Christ is not just a name for Jesus the head of the body, but is a name given to the whole body 1 cor 12:12-27. God created a man in His image and in his likeness and that man was Christ Gen 1:27. One who is made up of many. We were all created in Him, chosen in him; and we came out of him. When God created each of our bodies which is his husbandry he took that part of Christ we were and and transformed it into a seed placed it in his garden called our body. He made us to lack a little from elohim when we entered into this earth (literal rendering of Psa 8:6). The seed of wheat which is the word of God who is Christ was planted first after conception and before we entered into this world but in our point of view it was planted later when we were saved. Matt 13:24 John 12:23-26. Satan came along when ADAM slept, which sleep he never woke up from and planted the tare into the same ground Matt 13:25. Both seeds are growing up in us. We are both the son of the kingdom and the son of the wicked. Since Adam is asleep and we have not woken up to the reality of who we really are We have forgotten who we are in Him and we are not aware of the seed that was planted first and therefore we are totally convinced that we are the tare. In our fallen nature We are certain that our identity from birth is the wicked, the tare.

                  That name nature and character of the tare which satan planted in us, which we think we are was never written in the Lambs book of life and will never be written there. Only that which God has planted will return to God and be made whole. God is going to root up and burn every plant he did not plant Matt 15:13. The tare in each of us is going to be burned up and totally destroyed. When we wake up we will be in His Image and likeness and we will awake to righteousness, we will wake to our true identity in him.

                  We must each of us come to the place of revelation where we know we are sons of God, and as such are elohim like our Father. Psa 82:6 We must stop judging ourselves unjustly and trying to wear the image face and persona of the wicked we think we were from birth. We are not the wicked we are declared by God to be sons. As long as we remain wearing that image of the old man we will continue to live in darkness and we shall not truly know or understand what God is doing. All of our foundations are out of course: they are slipping and shaking and falling into decay when they should not be. We need to hear his voice from Zion so that all of our foundations that can be shaken can be removed and Christ who is our foundation can give us a kingdom which cannot be shaken or removed Heb 12:22-29; 1 cor 3:11; eph2:20 If this condition persists Eventually we will even die like men even though we are sons of God Psa 82.

                  We have been baptized into the name of Christ it is time we start to wear our true nature and character and hear His voice so that we may bring God’s deliverance to a lost and dying world. It is time to put off the garment of the old man who we think we are and put on Christ. Gal 3:27; Rom 13:14; Col 3:9-17

                  Col 3:9-17 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. (12) Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; (13) Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. (14) And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. (15) And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. (16) Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. (17) And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

                  Grace and peace Patrick

                  • Stephen Helbig April 11, 2013 at 10:03 pm

                    Patrick , I would like to bring something forth that I penned this morning 4-11-13 about 7:00 A.M. ~ I chose not to post it then because I look forward to your posts, and also Lanny’s question was directed to you ~ but here is what i wrote concearningTHE BOOK OF LIFE which goes right along with your comment ~ “The only name written in the Lamb’s book of life, is the name of Christ. Christ is not just a name for Jesus the head of the body, but is a name given to the whole body 1 cor 12:12-27.”

                    ————————————————————————

                    The Book of Life is not a roll call /names of those who come out of, or back from, Babylon nor a book of those found worthy of citizenship by their works, it is not about us ~ This book is ~ The book of life of the lamb; ~ it is the number of those who belong to Jesus in earth and heaven”, because of what he has done.

                    Another thought. ~ The “dead” who “stand” before God and are “judged” out of the “books” are not the physically dead in the outward cemeteries, nor are the books such as we have in our “book stores”. If they were, the whole principle of the imagery and symbolism would collapse. ~ If the “Lamb” who opens the “book” in chapter five is not a four-legged lamb, it should not be difficult to also understand that the “book” is not a two-covered book, ~ But this book is ~ “The book of life OF THE LAMB”. ~
                    ~ Revelation 13: (1) And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns [were] ten diadems, and on his heads [were] blasphemous names. (2) And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like [those] of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. (3) [I saw] one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed [and followed] after the beast; (4) they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” (5) There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. (6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, [that is], those who dwell in heaven. (7) It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. (8) All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB who has been slain. (9) If anyone has an ear, let him hear.

                    Notice verse 8 ~ And all the inhabitants of The Earth will worship it (the beast), those who are not written in The Book of Life of The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
                    ————————————————————————-

                    p.s. ~ “…of the making of many books there is no end…” (Eccl. 12:12)

                    p.s.s. ~ the book of life of stephen helbig ~ would be a book about stephen helbig ~ (LOL)

                    p.s.s.t. ~ THE BOOK OF LIFE OF THE LAMB who has been slain.~ Is about Jesus Christ our Lord

                    p.s.s.s.t. ~ Just one more thought ~ “The first chapter of the Gospel of John opens by saying, ‘In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God…in Him was life; and THE LIFE was the light of men. And the light shines into darkness: and the darkness comprehended it not…AND THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH, AND DWELT AMONG US (Jn. 1:1-14). ~ The apostle John ~ THE REVELATOR ~ declared that the Word of God was made flesh ~ for the darkened world to see. Within this Word was Life; ~ Life revealing and enlightening the darkened, “death-filled land” of mankind. This Word, This Holy Record and Book of the Life of Jesus, was not written upon tablets of stone or paper; but the Word was MADE FLESH ~ TO DWELL AMONG MEN! ~ “Wherefore when He comes into the world, He says, Sacrifice and offerings you would not, but a body you have prepared me… Then said I, Lo, I come (IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME,) to do Your will, O God” (Heb. 10:5-7)
                    .
                    ~ Jesus “Savior of the world” (1 John 4:14)
                    ~ “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world” (John 1:29)

                    • Patrick Strickland April 12, 2013 at 1:42 pm

                      Amen Stephen

                      The Lambs book of life is in each of us and is sealed with seven seals that can only be opened by the love of the Lamb of God. A love that refused to open it’s mouth when His accusers brought him to the place of slaughter. This is a love that has to overshadow the four aspects of our life: the lion who represents our emotions, the ox, which represents our bodies and is a burden bearer; the eagle an unclean bird under the law which represents our mind: and the man which represents our spirit. Each aspect is capable of killing the lamb, and each aspect must take on the very same love of the Lamb or the seals will not be opened in our lives. the four faced beast the cherubim of God are the redeemed from among men, they are the overcomers who are made kings and priests unto their God.

                      Rev 5:8-10 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. (9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; (10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

                      The Book was written long ago but only when the seals are opened will we and the world be able to read what is written therein of the revelation, the unveiling of Christ that is there.

                • Lanny A. Eichert April 11, 2013 at 8:08 pm

                  Patrick, does your that individual names are not entered in writing fit all these texts?

                  And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. {Philippians 4: 3}

                  He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. {Revelation 3: 5}

                  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. {Revelation 13: 8}

                  The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. {Revelation 17: 8}

                  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. {Revelation 20: 12}

                  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. {Revelation 20: 15}

                  And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life. {Revelation 21: 27}

                  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. {Revelation 22: 19}

                  • Patrick Strickland April 12, 2013 at 1:22 pm

                    Yes it does because your individual name of your fallen old man is your character that was not written in the lambs book of life. Satan planted that nature of the tare which can only lie cheat steal, and can do any number of things that are not from the life of Christ.

                    Jesus said that if we seek to save our life we shall lose it and if we seek to lose our life we shall find it. Matt 16:25

                    Those who are seeking to save the life of their old man are going to find out that they are going to lose it. That name and nature was never written in the lamb’s book of life and will always wonder after and worship the antichrist and the beast. Those who seek to lose the life of the old man will actually find the true source of their life… Christ during this lifetime. Those who don’t seek to lose that life now will lose the life they think they have, because it will be destroyed by fire. Yet they shall be saved, but they won’t get any rewards for losing their life. The wheat THAT GOD PLANTED REMAINS AND RETURNS BACK TO GOD WHO GAVE IT

                    Paul said that it was Christ the new man who was living through him and it was no longer I of the old man that was living because of the cross.

                    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 12:46 am

                    Patrick, you totally forget

                    Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ {2 Corinthians 5: 17, 18} {Likewise John 5: 24} Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

                    See you folks know nothing of CONVERSION. The moment a person is born again they are as holy as God is {NO condemnation, also Romans 8: 1}. At the moment of faith, when a person stops believing all the lies and starts believing God’s truth, reconciliation is accomplished {past tense}. You with all your past posts about tenses should have know this. Saints are holy ones, as holy as God, otherwise there is no fellowship possible with God Who said “Be ye holy; for I am holy.” {1 Peter 1: 16} Sins are removed completely and the righteousness of Christ is charged {imputed} to saints. {2 Corinthians 5: 21} For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

                    I am known in heaven as Saint Lanny Alan Eichert. My name appears in the Lamb’s Book of Life as Lanny Alan Eichert. In Christ my Adamic nature is not known. It died with Christ on the cross. I’ve been completely delivered from sin in heaven’s records, therfore my earthly name is in God’s book.

                    You *** to avoid eternal torment, but you will not prevail. Only those who obey the Gospel in this life have eternal life, as the perfect literal Holy Bible defines it. It begins at the moment of first faith and never ends.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 1:44 am

                      Patrick promotes all kinds of false notions to avoid eternal torment, but he will not prevail.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 21, 2013 at 1:19 pm

                      I do know that dear sir. The problem is you don’t quote enough context God is doing what?

                      2Co 5:17-21 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (18) And all things are out of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; (19) To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (20) Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. (21) For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

                      He is reconciling all men to Christ, and God in Christ is not counting mans sins against them. All men need to do is be reconciled back to God.

                      Col 1:19-22 Rotherham Because, in him, was all the fullness well pleased to dwell, (20) And, through him, fully to reconcile all things unto (INTO) him, making peace through the blood of his cross,—through him—whether the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens; (21) And, you, who at one time were estranged and enemies in your mind in your wicked works, yet, now, hath he fully reconciled, (22) In his body of flesh, through means of his death, to present you holy and blameless and unaccusable before him,—

                      We who have been given the ministry of reconciliation need to tell the world that they are reconciled to god and all they need to is be reconciled in their own minds.

                      In time it appears that not all are reconciled back into him; but in the fullness of time all men will be because of what Jesus did at the cross.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 22, 2013 at 12:01 am

                      Patrick, you distort Ephesians 1: 10
                      in … the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ
                      As I told you previously He is not gathering INTO Christ; He is gathering INTO ONE. What He is gathering is all things that have ALREADY been united to Christ. He is gathering them FROM among what is NOT in Christ. It makes no sense to gather if all things are in Christ, since they are already together. What is already “in Christ” is distributed throughout the world of unsaved humanity in missionary effort and therefore needs to be gathered from among the unsaved in order to be brought together. Once everything belonging to Christ is gathered from the world, what is left is judged and condemned to the Lake of Fire. That’s Revelation 20: 11 – 15 when the earth and the heaven flee away to allow them to stand naked and unaided before the Great White Throne. That’s another reason why “the dead” at the Great White Throne Final Judgment are all unbelievers and not a single one is a not-yet-believer, Dear Alice. Again, Alice, if the Great White Throne is Final Judgment, there can be no “yet” about them, otherwise final is not final.

                      Patrick refuses to correctly read the text and Alice doesn’t know what “Final Judgment” means.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 25, 2013 at 1:15 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Eph 1:9-11 KJV Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: (10) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: (11) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

                      I understand dear sir that you view those verses as only applying to just believers but since Paul wrote that passage he knows what it meant. He included the believers first and foremost but he did not end there with a view of partiality and division between believers and unbelievers. Throughout his witings he constantly stressed the fact that all men all creation would eventually be saved and subdued and willing serving God in Christ.

                      The passage in question is translated from the phrase ανακεφαλαιωσασθαι τα παντα εν τω χριστω, Which literally reads ‘to sum up again the all in the Christ.’ Anakephalaiomai is made up of two words ‘ana’ which means in the midst and when used as a prefix means repetition: and ‘Kephalaioo’ which means the principle thing, the main point, to bring under headings, to sum up.

                      All is going to be gathered together under the head Christ this is the main point of scripture. He is the head that all things are going to be summed up in. All enemies are going to be placed under his feet the church which is the body of christ the fulness of Him that filleth ALL in ALL. The amplified bible says this about verse 23 of chapter one of Ephesians.

                      23 Which is His body, the fullness of Him Who fills all in all [for in that body lives the full measure of Him Who makes everything complete, and Who fills everything everywhere with Himself].

                      One of the greatest enemy that will go under His feet which is the church; is each of our individual carnal minds that has alienated us all not just those who believe from what God is actually doing.

                      That is why he also said to the Colossians.

                      Col 1:20-21 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL into himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. (21) And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind in wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

                      Jesus did not die just for believers only. He died for all men everywhere and every when. When Jesus died for All; All died in him. The wisdom from the carnal mind of man will continually create divisions between those who believe exactly like it does and those who do not; and will always cause strife because of it’s interpretation of what it thinks is written in the word. The spiritual mind will always seek God to give him the truth and the wisdom from above which is without partiality and will apply truth equally to all men.

                      But more importantly When Paul talked to Timothy he clearly said we trust in a living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, especially of those that believe. He did not say that we trust in a living God who is NOT the Saviour of all men BUT ONLY of those that believe as you believe he said.

                      1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

                      This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. Why don’t you accept it? Could it be because you are still carnal in your thoughts concerning scriptures and accept the traditions of men which make the word of God of none effect more then you accept what he truly had written?

                      We were all created in Christ before the foundation of the world, and when we came into this world; in our mind we came out of Him and became separated from Him who created us; and there will come a time for each of us individually where we will be willingly gathered back into Him in his timing and in the order he has established for each of us. First Christ, then those who belong to Christ, then all the rest of creation who make up the end.

                      “For in Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him and for Him: and HE IS BEFORE ALL THINGS, and by Him all things consist” (Col_1:16-17).

                      Let me emphasize this wonderful and important truth: “He is before all things.” This can mean nothing else but that God is not one of the “things.” He is BEFORE all things. He is before all THINGS and He is before A-L-L things. And just as majestic is the truth that “by Him ALL THINGS CONSIST.” Young’s Literal Translation renders this literally from the Greek: “Because IN HIM were the all things CREATED … and HIMSELF IS BEFORE ALL, and the all things IN HIM HAVE CONSISTED.”

                      “From Him everything comes, by Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends!” (Rom 11:36).

                      If God be the Creator of ALL THINGS, then it must of necessity follow that GOD IS THE SOURCE OF ALL THINGS. We read the passage quoted above from the Diaglott. “Because OUT of HIM, and THROUGH HIM, and FOR HIM are ALL THINGS, to Him be the glory for the ages. Amen.” All things are out of God, all things are through Him, all things are for Him, and all things are unto Him, ending in Him. The clearest possible rendering is given by Goodspeed, “For from Him everything comes; through Him everything exists; and in Him everything ends! Glory to Him forever! Amen.” The Amplified Bible also expresses it beautifully, “For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. For all things originate with Him and come from Him, all things live through Him, and all things center in and tend to consummate and end in Him. To Him be glory forever! Amen – so be it.”

                      Everything is going to consummate and end in Him, so that he may be everything in everyone. No one is going to be left out. But the wonderful truth is whether anyone believes it or not is we ALL live and move and have our being in him. Acts 17:28 It doesn’t matter if you don’t see anything I am saying, or don’t even believe it: If something is truly true it does not change even if you don’t believe it. The which is true will be the same no matter what you or I believe. Paul was talking to unsaved Gentiles when he declared we live and move and have our being in him. This is clearly a truth for all men, not just for those who believe. Paul also declared this to all men in Ephesians 1:6 concerning God.

                      One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Eph 1:6)

                      As a side note one of the greatest passages in the old testament is: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:” (Deu 6:4 KJV) One, in the numerology of the scripture, means UNITY, UNITED, UNDIVIDED, UNFRAGMENTED. One is the primary number, denoting beginning or source. Unity being indivisible, and not made up of other members, is therefore independent of all others, and is the source of all others. “One,” excludes all difference, for there is no second with which it can either harmonize or conflict. One means unity and unity comes from the word “unit”. J Preston Eby has said in “The Restitution of All Things” the following on one.

                      “In reference to His substance, God is SPIRIT. In reference to His state of being, God is ONE. That which is ONE is that which is UNITED, UNDIVIDED, UNFRAGMENTED. Oneness speaks of unity, harmony, singleness, concord, solidarity. God is ONE! The fact that there is ONE GOD must not be confused with the truth that GOD IS ONE. Perhaps, as someone has said, this is only another aspect of viewing the same truth, for God is truly one, undivided in Himself, or in His will and purpose. And surely HE alone is God! But this One God IS ONE. It is a great and blessed fact that God is ONE. He who is united, undivided and unfragmented in every aspect of His nature and state of being cannot be influenced, affected, moved, upset, frustrated, changed, altered, damaged, destroyed, made discordant or set at variance in any way. The character of God is eternal, changeless, unaffected. The love, joy, peace, righteousness, wisdom, justice, power and will of God do not rise and fall, rise and fall, rise and fall. Matters not what happens nor what men or devils say or do, the love of God, the purpose of God, the power of God are steadfast, unmoved, unquenched, unaffected, without fluctuation. He is Jehovah, the SELF-EXISTENT ONE. He is ONE. No power in the universe can cause any deviation whatsoever in God’s nature, will or action.”

                      Jesus also declared “I and my Father are one”. Jesus is united, undivided, unfragmented, with his Father But he did not just leave it there, He also said when he prayed for the saints and all those who would believe WHAT THEY HAVE TAUGHT, that they would be ONE, UNITED, UNDIVIDED, UNFRAGMENTED with him and his Father EVEN AS THEY ARE ONE;

                      Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe INTO me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Joh 17:20-23

                      Jesus did not say he wanted us to be divided into 32,000 different denominations arguing over what they consider to be truth. No he clearly said He wanted us to be one with the Father and with Him even as they are one completely unfragmented, undivided, and united in them. And what would be the purpose for this? So the world may know …KNOW WHAT? That the world may truly know that Jesus was sent of God, now catch this this is very important and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. This is verified in John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth into him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

                      God is preparing A FIRST FRUIT, a church out of the church, his sons, who are his priests and giving them His very own self to be their own glory so that they may be totally one undivided, unfragmented with the Father and Jesus even as they are one with each other. John17:5, 20-23 And through their oneness they have in the glory of God that they have been given, they are going to bring ALL CREATION, the world into the very same liberty of the glory that they have received from Jesus. Romans 8 The world is going to know the love of God that he has for all of them because of the glory he is giving to us is going to be fully demonstrated for all the world to see in the ages to come.

                      And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (Eph 2:6-7 KJV)

                      In the ages to come the world is truly going to know and fully experience the love of God through his manifested sons who know they are one with them even as Jesus and the Father are one, and all the world will be brought into the exact same glory that will cause them to be one with all of us even as we are one with the Father and Jesus.

                      Everything that was created in Christ that ‘seemingly’ came out of him when it entered into this world of separation is going to be summed up ‘again’ in Christ. This is the purpose of God. To leave anyone out shows you truly do not know the Father’s will yet, as you think you do. I encourage you to Get into God’s presence, seek His face, be willing to let him teach you what he actually meant by what he had written, and find out if these things are actually his will or not. Love never fails; and since God is love: GOD NEVER FAILS!!!

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 26, 2013 at 2:46 am

                      Patrick writes: ‘ana’ … as a prefix means repetition. Patrick, I’ve been telling you all along what ALREADY is “in Christ” is gathered into one company. Again is the meaning of repetition and therefore those not “in Christ” cannot AGAIN be gathered.

                      Your point about ‘ana’ proves the unsaved are not gathered into Christ. Your own point proves your teaching false. In my simplicity am I not making myself clear?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 26, 2013 at 3:13 am

                      Patrick, besides ‘the all in the Christ’ is one descriptive unit with the preposition “in the Christ” modifying “the all” showing you that the gathering is everything that has been “in Christ” before the gathering and that every bit of what has been “in Christ” is gathered. Again, as I previous wrote, after the gathering what is left ungathered is what is NOT “in Christ” so that the gathering requires something NOT gathered which is not “in Christ.”

                      Again your ‘the all in the Christ’ proves the unsaved are left ungathered. Your own point proves your teaching false. I ask again, in my simplicity am I not making myself clear?

                      Look again how “all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him” is descriptive of WHAT is gathered = everything already existing “in Christ” where ever it is found. Notice also “on” earth instead of in.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 27, 2013 at 6:35 pm

                      Patrick, your: “All is going to be gathered together under the head Christ this is the main point of scripture” is incorrectly written according to the text. The correct way to write that statement is “All under the head Christ is to be gathered together this is the main point of scripture.” God’s Elect are the favored subject. They are displayed to God’s enemies as trophies of His grace. Then they are gathered out from His enemies in order for God to destroy His enemies. God pulling Lot by His angels from Sodom before He destroyed the twin cities is a beautiful example and picture of God’s plan and purpose detailed in Ephesians 1: 10. The out gathering is also pictured by the church: ecclesia meaning a called out assembly.

                      Patrick, word order can change the meaning of a statement very significantly, so please be careful what order you put your words and in what order you read words. God has arranged His words very precisely.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 29, 2013 at 1:29 pm

                      “Patrick writes: ‘ana’ … as a prefix means repetition. Patrick, I’ve been telling you all along what ALREADY is “in Christ” is gathered into one company. Again is the meaning of repetition and therefore those not “in Christ” cannot AGAIN be gathered.

                      Your point about ‘ana’ proves the unsaved are not gathered into Christ. Your own point proves your teaching false. In my simplicity am I not making myself clear?”

                      LOL I am sorry Lanny I find your answer rather amusing. Since all were created In Christ before the foundation of the earth then they were all summed up in him long before there was a creation.

                      Col 1:16-17 FOR IN HIM IS ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, (17) and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him.”

                      Since all that was created in Him are the same all being summed up again in the head in Christ Jesus then that does not leave out anyone like you vainly assume. Everyone you see was created by God In Christ Jesus. And in the dispensation of the fullness of time all will be summed up again in Christ. This scriptural fact proves it.

                      LOVE YOU LANNY BUT your point does not hold up to scriptures even though you desperately want it to.

                      Till next time Patrick

                    • Patrick Strickland April 29, 2013 at 2:10 pm

                      Patrick, besides ‘the all in the Christ’ is one descriptive unit with the preposition “in the Christ” modifying “the all” showing you that the gathering is everything that has been “in Christ” before the gathering and that every bit of what has been “in Christ” is gathered. Again, as I previous wrote, after the gathering what is left ungathered is what is NOT “in Christ” so that the gathering requires something NOT gathered which is not “in Christ.”

                      Again your ‘the all in the Christ’ proves the unsaved are left ungathered. Your own point proves your teaching false. I ask again, in my simplicity am I not making myself clear?

                      Look again how “all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him” is descriptive of WHAT is gathered = everything already existing “in Christ” where ever it is found. Notice also “on” earth instead of in.

                      Hi Lanny You are clearly forgetting where we were all created at – IN Christ. Since all were created in Him before the foundation of the world then name one thing that not in Him to begin with?

                      Nothing was not in him.

                      If Christ died for all men and all men are dead as scripture declares.

                      2Co 5:14-15 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (15) And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

                      Then tell me how did all die when he died if they were not all included in him when he went to the cross?

                      No matter how much you fuss and declare God is going to burn most in hell because in your view they are not in him; the truth is so much greater and more blessed he died for all mankind. All men were created in him all were summed up in him at the cross and all will again be summed up in him at the dispensation of the fullness of time.

                      ***

                    • Patrick Strickland April 29, 2013 at 2:16 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      I really do love you with a love that has no end and is truly without measure. Years ago when I did believe in eternal torment, I honestly could not say something like that to anyone who disagreed with me, I would do the same thing call them an antichrist treat them like they were going to hell for believing and listening to lies of demons. I never realized at that time just how much the denominations I was going to was teaching me to hate my enemies in the name of love. It took a revelation of God to make me come to my senses and realize that I was not acting like Christ at all, but I was acting just like the pharisees of old. It took years from that point for God to cultivate His love in me and for it to begin to grow in me. I am not saying that it has come to complete maturity yet, because I recognize that I have a long ways to go still. But compared to what I was like when I believed as you do I have grown in Christ immensely.

                      Everything Jesus spoke was out of love. Not the mushy kind that men think love is, but a love that will do whatever it takes to bring about his intended purpose for all men. A love that would chastise when people needed it, and would not repent and turn away from doing what was needed in a person’s life. Jesus when He spoke to the multitudes, he only spoke in parables, No one in their carnal natural minds could understand what he was talking about. He deliberately spoke this way so that they could not understand. None of the religious leaders of His time fully understood what he was saying.

                      And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:10-15 KJV)

                      All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. (Mat 13:34-35 KJV)

                      When you read Jesus’ words you are reading nothing but parables. You must be in the same spirit He was when he spoke in order to understand what was truly said, otherwise you will be just like the pharisees of old and the masses of humanity and even his disciples who heard him speak one thing but did not understand what Jesus was actually talking about. Jesus had to sit down and explain what he was saying to the disciples because they did not understand what he was talking about. We need the holy spirit to explain what he meant by what he had written. This is not just idle words I am speaking but it is a essential requirement for our understanding. If he does not teach us we will not understand what was said and we will automatically distort and change what he truly meant to whatever we think he said.

                      Let me give you an example from my personal life of what I am talking about. Let me start by giving you a little background. Years ago I was a member of a little charismatic church in Tulsa OK and every time the doors was open I would be there for service. During that time My wife just upped and left with a man who we were trying to help, She took my kids with her. I was devastated and an emotional wreck at that time and the only thing that was holding me together was God. Shortly thereafter I decided to move to a smaller house next to a Assemblies of God church. One Tuesday night they were having a revival at the Assemblies of God church and I decided to attend. During the meeting the evangelist who was speaking began to prophecy to different individuals. He came up to me and said something to me that if I did not feel the very presence of God on it I would have rejected what he said. He said simply that I did not need to forsake the assembling of myself together with the saints. Now the way he said it to the congregation and my natural mind it sounded exactly like I needed to become a member of their church. But because I was already a member of a church and was going every time they had a service I immediately asked God what was going on because I did feel His presence so strongly. Instantly He spoke to me and showed me that my wife was returning to church and that I was not to leave.

                      A few moments later the service ended, and a woman came up to me and asked what I thought about the prophet. I told her he was spot on. She then started to ask me if I was going to become a member of their church. I said “No, I was not going to be a member of their church.” You could tell by the way she looked at me that she thought I was being disobedient to God by not becoming a member of their church, especially after what the prophet said. God did not reveal the details of what I was going through to any of the members of that church. He was being a total gentleman, but what he said could easily be misinterpreted by all present, which they did do, and if I would not have asked Him what he meant I would have misinterpreted it too, and rejected it as a false prophecy. I left that night with a few people mad at me thinking I was being totally disobedient to God. But it did not matter to me what they thought they heard: I knew what God had shown me to be the truth. Which he proved to be true…

                      That following Sunday my ex wife and kids along with her new boyfriend showed up at the church I was a member of just like God said they would and I had to sit there and learn to love them even though I hurt for the next six months till they moved to Seattle. Now if God through the prophet would not have warned me of her return to the church I would have left and not returned when she showed up.

                      I fully understand that you cannot see anything different for most men who do not accept Christ in their lifetime but hell and eternal torment when you read scriptures: but I have asked God and I know that he has showed me something completely different from how you interpret it. It really doesn’t matter to me if you don’t see it the same way I do My faith in God does not require that you do see it exactly like I do. I can love you even if you don’t believe the same way I do. And that dear sir is proof that I truly am a christian and a genuine disciple of Christ.

                      A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (Joh 13:34-35 KJV)

                      As God has shown to me mercy for all the sins I have ever committed; I have learned that He expects me to show mercy to all men that cross my path. Matt 18:23-35 The simple truth is that when I believed in eternal torment I could not show mercy to all men that came across my path especially those who disagreed with my view of scripture since I know that there was a God who would burn them in hell for their rebellion I treated them in such a way that I was trying to help them get there sooner. I wanted the justice of God to come down and burn them right then and there. I absolutely had no mercy for any man that did not share my view. I soon found that God was no longer showing me mercy in many instances in my life when I needed him to, as he had before, simply because I was refusing to follow his instructions to show mercy, because I had received mercy from him.

                      It is absolutely simple and easy to show unconditional love and mercy when I walk from the power of His life he has put into me. It is totally impossible to show unconditional mercy when I walk from the carnal natural life and understanding of the old man. My natural man can show mercy but will always put a condition on it …what can I gain from showing mercy to this person. Mercy from my old man is never unconditional, it always attaches a condition for it’s benefit, in order for it to be demonstrated.

                      It is Christ’s nature to show love and mercy to all without any conditions on it at all: and all his disciples will share in that nature and will display love and mercy to all. We share his life and nature and we will walk just like he did. If we hate then we are not showing his nature, we are still walking out of the wicked carnal nature and are continuing in darkness. When we are told to love our enemies, God means for us to do just that because that is His nature He loves all of His enemies. Religion will try to persuade you that God really does not love his enemies but the truth is He absolutely does. It is no longer our old man who is living through us when we recognize we went to the cross, but it is Christ himself living and loving through us. And when we love it pours coals of fire upon our enemies head So like wise when God loves someone through us God pours out coals of fire upon their head. God’s love shown to his enemies becomes the very thing that creates the fire that will burn away their carnal nature.

                      He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
                      (1Jn 2:4-11 KJV)

                      This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
                      (1Jn 1:5-7 KJV)

                      But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.
                      (Pro 4:18-19 KJV)

                      The sad part is when we walk out of that carnal wicked nature we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are walking in the light yet we continue to hate all those who disagree with our opinion of scripture. The very fact that we are walking in hatred towards any men who are created in His image is proof that we are still in darkness, and as long as we are in darkness we are not going to understand God”s will to bring all men into His glory, and change them into the image of His son. Every Knee is going to bow and every tongue is going to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God.

                      Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
                      (Php 2:9-11 KJV)

                      Now Most people never realize that the word ‘to’ in the phrase “to the glory of God” is actually eis pronounced ice in the Greek and means “INTO”. Our confession will ultimately bring us into the glory of God, where we will be changed into the same image of the son. Now as long as we are not doing the will of God when we do confess Jesus Christ is Lord we will remain in darkness, Hating all those who do not believe the way we do. But since every Knee will bow and every tongue will confess that in Him they have righteousness and strength then there is coming a time in every life that everyone will be doing the will of the Father and when they do repent and start doing the will of God they will enter into the glory of God and will be changed into the same image they see.

                      You don’t realize that the throne of God is in you because Christ is in you. Your body is the tabernacle of David and the throne of God is in you, and the ark of the covenant is in you. Jesus at the cross bought and paid for the body of everyone who has ever lived upon this earth and they all are his property. Every person is his tabernacle, yet most never realize it. Most of mankind continue to walk in the darkness of their minds, being alienated from the life of God that is in each and everyone of them.

                      This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
                      (Eph 4:17-18 KJV)

                      Since the throne of God is in you, you are continuously daily appearing before the judgment seat of Christ. Where ever you go, the throne of God is going with you and you are constantly being judged by God for what you are doing, and saying. And as long as you are NOT doing the will of God Loving all men created in his image, and continue to confess Jesus Christ is Lord you will remain walking in outer darkness never entering into the true kingdom of God which is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. This is true of all humanity since the cross of Christ. You don’t fully understand that the judgment of Matthew seven is occurring in every man’s life right now, and will continue to occur every time someone confesses Jesus Christ is Lord yet refuse to obey his will, and love all men especially their enemies, they will continue to walk in outer darkness, hating men who do not believe just like they do, and consigning them to eternal torment in hell. But there will come a day in every man’s life where because of The love he continually pours over our heads that all will repent and walk in obedience to the will of God, and they will demonstrate their love for all men who are created in God’s image. Every knee must bow and every tongue must confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and that covenant confession will bring them INTO the glory of God the Father. There is a vast difference between what religion teaches a tortured confession for most that somehow brings glory and honor to God and what the anointing teaches a confession that will bring them into the glory of God the Father that Jesus has and has given to all who believe that will make them one with the Jesus and the Father even as they are one. In God’s time all men are going to become believers. I for the life of me cannot see how a tortured confession that does not save the person making that confession can bring God any honor or glory, to me all I see is that it smears his character even more, causing him to appear to be the greatest evil there ever was. Billions of times greater then any Hitler or Caesar ever thought of being. He is even worse then Satan since all things are created for His pleasure then the gospel of eternal torment makes him the most vile sadist there ever was torturing billions of lost soul he sent His son to save just for his sick twisted pleasure. I could never serve a monster like that. That is not the God I know.

                      The only thing keeping any of us from understanding and coming to the light of the glory of the gospel of Christ is the god of this age- Moses and the ministry of death the law He preached which blinds us and veils our eyes to the truth of the gospel of His glory.

                      But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
                      (2Co 4:3-4)

                      Check out the context of chapter 3 and you will see that Moses is responsible for blinding the minds of men.

                      Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
                      (2Co 3:12-4:4 KJV)

                      This is the same law that is our schoolmaster as long as we are babes carnal in our thinking that will blind us to the truth. But when we truly come to Christ we no longer have our minds blinded to the life of God hidden in us. And we can begin to love everyone just like God loves us. We can love everyone not just because we are told to, but because God is sharing His divine nature with us and we are loving them because He truly loves everyone and desires to save all men. When we love He is loving through us. When we hate we separate ourselves from the life of God that is in us, and we will walk in darkness. When you truly understand the Father’s heart of Love there will be no way you will be able to hold unto the doctrine created by the carnal imaginations of men the doctrine of eternal torment and torture in hell for most men.

                      God never fails. Your view of God when examined closely is nothing but a one gigantic failure he sets out to save, heal make whole the whole world and loses most of it to the devil and sin. Your God is nothing but an idol of the imagination who cannot save.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 29, 2013 at 6:01 pm

                      Patrick, April 29, 2013 at 1:29 pm {ESV} Colossians 1:16

                      For by* him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things were created through him and for him.

                      Footnote:
                      * That is, by means of; or in

                      Patrick fails to understand that Christ is the Creator not the location of creation.

                      Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD. {Jeremiah 23: 24}

                      Patrick April 29, 2013 at 2:10 pm 2 Corinthians 5: 14 – 15 says nothing about ALL dying in Christ, but rather that Christ died for all. Only believers died in Christ and were raised to newness of life {born again} Romans 6: 1 – 4. Everybody else burns in eternal torment. Only to believers is the death and resurrection of Christ any benefit. They are the only ones who live. They are the only ones who live selflessly for Christ.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 29, 2013 at 8:42 pm

                      Patrick April 29, 2013 at 2:16 pm says Moses is responsible for blinding the minds of men. Again he fails to read carefully: But their minds were blinded {2 Corinthians 3: 14}
                      They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. {Luke 16: 29}
                      Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. {Galatians 3:24}

                    • Patrick Strickland May 5, 2013 at 1:59 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      In Genesis 1 we find that “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. When you understand that Jesus called himself “the beginning” in Revelation 1:8 then you will begin to understand that the beginning is not just a “when” God created, but is actually where and in whom he created, He created all things in Christ. In Christ God created the heavens and the earth. This fact is verified in Colossians 1:16 “For in him were all things created…” Later in the same verse Paul declares “…all things were created through him” Now Paul did not use the same word in both quotes, even though the translator of the King James did – the word ‘by’. In the first part he used the word ‘en’ which as a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state). Now I am fully aware of what the implied meaning is: instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest: but that is not it’s first and primary meaning, that is it’s implied meaning. Now to assume that I do not see and believe the implied meaning is totally absurd when the implied meaning is clearly seen in the second phrase.

                      Now in the second phrase the word “through” is translated from the Greek word “dia” which denotes the channel of an act. Now I do not believe that Paul was just idly repeating himself. Because the meaning of the two words are different, even though one has a similar implied meaning. I believe that Paul was clearly stressing two different truths in the same sentence. When you draw a circle and put a dot anywhere inside the circle that is en; if you draw a line and put an arrow on either end that passes from one side to the other side where it passes anywhere through the circle that is dia. Dia represents motion while en represents a position of rest. Not only was everything created through Christ signifying motion: but everything was created in him signifying rest. Jesus Christ is not only the channel of the act of creation and the implied instrumentality of it, but he is the place of rest where everything was created in. He is the ‘Beginning’ of the creation of God in every sense of the word, both as a place of rest where everything was created and as a channel of creation. Both statements are equally true and represented in that one verse. I can support both statements from other scriptures, and I fully believe both to be absolutely true at the same time. Since both are equally true; to insist on just one over the other will lead you into error. To insist as you did that I cannot see one is simply nothing but glaring erroneous belief on your part. From now on dear sir, if at all possible I would appreciate it, as a courtesy to please take the time to ask if I actually believe an item before you boldly write I don’t.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2013 at 1:36 am

                      Patrick, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. {Revelation 1: 8} is misunderstood by your failing to see beginning as Alpha. The point of the statement is the eternality of Christ, not that He is the where of creation.

                      These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; {Revelation 3: 14} is also misunderstood by your failing to equate Amen to beginning, which is the word ἀρχὴ archē meaning the Chief Final Authority of the Faithful and True Witness. Christ was about to judge the Laodiceans’ church and there would be no “place of rest” then.

                      This use of words foreign to the context is typical of Patrick and his comments are not to be trusted.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 7, 2013 at 12:24 pm

                      – Transliteration: Arche
                      – Strong’s Definition: From G756; (properly abstract) a commencement or (concrete) chief (in various applications OF ORDER TIME place or rank): – beginning corner (at the the) first (estate) magistrate power principality principle rule.

                      Jesus is the arche. In all senses of the word. In the Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint the beginning is translated from the same word arche.

                      Gen 1:1 Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν.

                      Jesus is also the Alpha he is the Omega he is the beginning, he is the end! He is the arche! Jesus is not only the source of all creation he is where all creation was created. Again both aspects can be supported by that one word.

                      In John 1:1 the beginning is also translated from the Greek word arche

                      Now I know that you will never believe this without a revelation from the Holy Spirit. But whether you believe it or not doesn’t matter to me, I do because God has shown me the truth of what I’m saying and I’m not trying to force you to believe the same as I do I’m just sharing with you what I believe and it does not matter to me if you do not believe it, I’m still going to love you because of what I’ve been shown By God. I can support everything I am writing by Scripture.

                      If what I am saying is only just my opinion that it will not happen, and you have nothing to fear over it ever coming to pass. But if what I am saying is actually being spoken by God to me then it will come to pass because it is a word from the Lord based upon what He had written in Scripture. Likewise what you are saying if it is only just your opinion will not occur. But if you are actually hearing from the Lord then it will come to pass.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 7, 2013 at 11:48 pm

                      Patrick, I repeat: This use of words foreign to the context is typical of Patrick and his comments are not to be trusted.

                      In all senses of the word, Patrick? No, contextual use limits its meaning, dear boy, and you cannot properly import a meaning from elsewhere.

                      Your May 7, 2013 at 12:24 pm on arche doesn’t prove your point of the location of creation being Christ. Both Genesis 1: 1 and John 1: 1 references are “time” sensitive useages of beginning, not personal identification.

                    • Patrick Strickland May 23, 2013 at 4:02 pm

                      I knew that would be your answer there dear sir. There is one thing you keep failing to realize that what is written literally in the context of scripture can be changed and have a completely different meaning when God speaks to you and applies it spiritually.

                      Let me give you an example from the old testament:

                      When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images. I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them. I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them. He shall not return into the land of Egypt, but the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.
                      (Hos 11:1-5 KJV)

                      What is the context about Israel, the nation, the son of God being called out of Egypt, yet still sacrificing to idols, and god pleading with them to return.. Read the context there is no way anyone reading that would ever come to any other conclusion by just reading the context alone. . However the spirit of God Taught Matthew that this was talking about Jesus Christ coming out of Egypt at the death of Herod. Matthew ignored the written literal context and declares just that fact.

                      When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt: And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
                      (Mat 2:14-15 KJV)

                      Matthew by the spirit of God completely changed the meaning of what was just literally written in scripture and applied a passage meant for rebellious Israel and applied it directly to Christ Jesus. This is only one of many examples from scripture. I could provide many example from the new testament when they misquoted out of context the old to prove the point they were making spiritually. Promises to Israel became fulfilled in Christ Jesus and in his church both Jew and gentile. Paul applied many passages in the literal context of the old testament meant for just Israel to the church in the new testament.

                      When you hear his voice and let Him teach you what he meant by what he had written, Then many times the literal context will be completely ignored for the spiritual reality that he is actually trying to bring us all into. If you would ever grow to the point where you can begin to exercise your right to hear the voice of God for yourself you would know this as a living reality. Every writer of the new testament knew this fact as a living reality. Just reading from a literal perspective only will blind you to what the spirit is truly trying to teach you.

                      When you read it just literally you are right arche in context refers to time but when you listen to the anointing in you then spiritually the beginning is Christ. A literal understanding is a valid understanding of scripture, but it is the lowest level of understanding and is considered by scripture that which can kill you. The highest is learning to hear God speak in your spirit and having Him teach you the meaning of what is written upon a page.

                      Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
                      (2Co 3:2-9 KJV)

                      There is a spiritual reality available to all of us when we read scripture but we must ask God to teach us what He truly desires us to understand. And ONLY this spiritual understanding is life to us.

                      Now you have a choice you can continue to to be content just read the literal and eventually die, or you can learn to hear God and let him write upon your heart the spirit of His word, and live. I’ll give you a hint memorizing scripture is not the same as having it written in your heart and mind by the spirit of God.

                      Till next time

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 23, 2013 at 8:35 pm

                      Patrick says: May 23, 2013 at 4:02 pm what is written literally in the context of scripture can be changed and have a completely different meaning when God speaks to you and applies it spiritually.

                      Do you then understand the meaning can be radically different for each person to whom your god speaks such that there is no SINGLE meaning intended by your god for his scriptures for everybody?

                    • Patrick Strickland May 25, 2013 at 2:09 pm

                      The God of truth has given us his anointing and his spirit to lead and guide us into ALL truth.

                      1Jn 2:27 And the anointing which you obtained from Him is remaining in you, and you have no need that anyone may be teaching you, but as His anointing is teaching you concerning all, and is true, and is no lie, according as it teaches you also, remain in Him.”

                      Jesus said he is the way the truth and the life. Truth is Jesus Christ. and we have the spirit of Christ to show us all the treasures that are hidden in Him. God may very well show you or someone else something he does not show me but we have all eternity to discover ALL truth. But if you only listen to the opinions of men teach you what they think the scriptures mean and don’t listen to him then there is no way he can show his truth.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 25, 2013 at 11:39 pm

                      Sorry, Patrick, but since Jesus is the Truth, He is the SAME unto every saint. He is not one truth to one man and another different truth to another man.

                      Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. {Hebrews 13: 8}

            • Lanny A. Eichert March 28, 2013 at 6:04 pm

              Patrick, if Isaiah 45 is the main promise of inheritance in God’s contract, why do you not acknowledge Isaiah 45: 22 is an invitation to earth dwelling peoples ONLY and is void after physical death?

              Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. {Isaiah 45: 22}

              • Patrick Strickland April 4, 2013 at 11:47 am

                Hi Lanny

                Three weeks ago my computer got a rather nasty virus and I took it to the shop for repair. I got it out last week but not three days later it crashed permenately, and is now beyond recovery. I had a prepared a response and was ready to answer your three posts but it was lost when my computer crashed. I have just got my new computer and am busy setting it up and as soon as I can I will post an answer this weekend to you.

                Sorry for the length of time it has taken to get back to you.

                Grace and peace Patrick

              • Patrick Strickland April 7, 2013 at 2:26 pm

                Lanny I hate to inform you that in Isaiah 45:22 there is not an invitation given to anyone. Instead “Look and be saved” in the Hebrew is in the qal imperative, where the imperative is a COMMAND and not an invitation at all.

                Now where is the scripture that declares Isaiah 45:22 is void after death? I would be interested in seeing that verse?

                Grace and peace Patrick

              • Patrick Strickland April 25, 2013 at 2:28 pm

                Hi Lanny if v 22 modifies the following verses to only a man lifetime then Every knee and every tongue must bow and confess that in him they have righteousness and strength during their lifetime. This is now a sworn word of God and must come to pass during a man’s lifetime, but since it does not come to pass in a majority of men lives and much of them have never heard of Jesus during their lifetime as you suppose; then your view makes God again a liar or at the very least completely incompetent and totally untrustworthy. Now seeing this is a sworn word of God and his name rides upon its accomplishment The chance of God lying are are not even remotely possible since it is completely impossible for him to lie.

                Your view of interpretation is truly inconsistent. You apply ends of the earth to just a man’s lifetime yet your denomination insists that most mankind can confess after death in order for God’s sworn word to be fulfilled yet those who are forced into confessing are not saved. You cannot have it both ways if you are going to interpret all the ends of the earth to be a man’s lifetime then you must make every knee bowing and every tongue confessing occurring during a man’s lifetime. You demand Verse 22 to be fulfilled only during a man’s lifetime, yet you refuse to interpret the next two verses the same way. Because you know that if you did consistently interpret those verses your view would completely fall apart. Talk about deceitfully handling the word of God to manipulate it to what you want it to say.

                Besides context starts much earlier then verse 22 start reading from the beginning of the chapter, and you will find that any God who cannot save is nothing but an idol of the imagination of man. Since your view and understanding of God is a god who cannot save then he is nothing but a false idol of your imagination which your tradition promotes as the real god. There is a real Jesus, There is a real Jehovah and he is the Savior of all men especially those that believe.

                Besides the biggest problem I have with your view is that nowhere in the bible does it say that death make null and void what has gone out of His mouth in righteousness which will not return to him void but it shall accomplish what HE SENT IT TO DO!! Death does not disannul the promises, or sworn word of God Nor can death dis annul the covenant of God.

                The phrase ‘ends of the earth’ is translated in scripture as the uttermost parts of the earth in Psa 2.

                Psa 2:8-9 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. (9) Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.

                According to scripture it is not recorded where he asked for His inheritance and received his possession the uttermost parts of the earth. God was waiting for a later age for him to ask when he would ask through His body who are overcomers. Psa 2:9 is given as a promise to the overcomers in Revelation.

                Rev 2:26-28 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: (27) And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. (28) And I will give him the morning star.

                The Spirit of Christ in the overcomer will ask for His inheritance and possession the uttermost parts of the earth. That is why God has promised that anything we pray according to his will he will hear us, and if he hears us, he will give it to us. So when you find a promise with the word will in it you can be guarenteed God will give it to you if you pray His will without doubting. And in the middle of telling us to pray for all men God clearly tells us what his will is.

                1Ti 2:1-8 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made FOR ALL MEN; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, WITHOUT WRATH AND DOUBTING.

                WHEN I PRAY FOR ALL MEN TO BE SAVED without any doubt at all, IT IS NOT MY OLD MAN PRAYING BUT IT IS CHRIST in me ASKING FOR HIS INHEIRITANCE AND POSSESION THE ENDS OF THE EARTH, which your denomination tradition denies Him from having. God is not going to deny this prayer after guaranteeing he will answer it. It is clearly His divine will.

                Grace and peace Patrick

            • Lanny A. Eichert March 28, 2013 at 8:31 pm

              Patrick, 2Timothy 1: 9-10 is written by a saint to a saint about saints. It is NOT true of the world of sinners. You make your false assumption that God saves everybody and then by that false premise applied to this text falsely conclude everybody is saved before they were even created. You fail to acknowledge that the Scriptures distinguish “us” from “them.” The “us” are saints and the “them” are sinners. Saints are called out from among sinners “according to his own purpose and grace.”

              Titus 1: 1-2 is “according to the faith of God’s elect” for eternal life. Don’t you see “God’s Elect?” God’s Elect are saints and the rest of the world are sinners. “Us” and “them.” Your blindness signifies you belong to “them” and your “conversion” is faulty. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. {1 John 2: 19 & 20} See the “us” and “them?”

              • Stephen Helbig March 29, 2013 at 10:08 am

                Titus ~ (1)Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those CHOSEN OF GOD and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, (2)in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, PROMISED LONG AGES AGO, (3)but at the proper time manifested, His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,

                John 15 ~ (12)“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. (13)“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. (14)“You are My friends if you do what I command you. (15)“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (16)“YOU DID NOT CHOSE ME BUT I CHOSE YOU, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain…

                1 John 4 ~(7)Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. (8)The one who does not love does not know God, for God IS love. (9)By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. (10)In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation(MERCY SEAT) for our sins. (11)Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (12)No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. (13)By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. (14)WE HAVE SEEN and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.

                • Lanny A. Eichert March 30, 2013 at 11:46 pm

                  Thanks, Stephen, for quoting texts written only to saints.

                  • Stephen Helbig April 1, 2013 at 10:49 am

                    SAINTS
                    In the King James Version 3 words are thus rendered: sants;

                    (1) qadhosh (in Daniel the same root occurs several times in its Aramaic form, qaddish);

                    (2) chacidh, and

                    (3) hagioi.

                    Of these words (2) (chacidh), has in general the meaning of righteousness or goodness, while (1) and (3) have the meaning of consecration and divine claim and ownership. They are not primarily words of character, like chacidh, but express a relation to God as being set apart for His own. Wherever qadhosh refers to angels, the rendering “holy one” or “holy ones” has been substituted in the Revised Version (British and American) for the King James Version “saint” or “saints,” which is the case also in Psalm 106:16 margin (compare 34:9), and in 1 Samuel 2:9, as the translation of chacidh.

                    While hagioi occurs more frequently in the New Testament than does qadhosh in the Old Testament, yet both are applied with practical uniformity to the company of God’s people rather than to any individual. Perhaps the rendering “saints” cannot be improved, but it is necessary for the ordinary reader constantly to guard against the idea that New Testament saintship was IN ANY WAY A RESULT OF PERSONAL CHARACTER, and consequently that it implied approval of moral attainment already made. Such a rendering as “consecrate ones,” for example, would bring out more clearly the relation to God which is involved, but, besides the fact that it is not a happy translation, it might lead to other errors, for it is not easy to remember that consecration-the setting apart of the individual as one of the company whom God has in a peculiar way as His own-SPRINGS NOT FROM MAN, but from God Himself, and that consequently it is in no way SOMETHING OPTIONAL, and admits of no degrees of progress, but, on the contrary, is from the beginning absolute. It should also be noted that while, as has been said, to be a saint is not directly and primarily to be good but to be SET APART BY GOD, yet the godly and holy character ought inevitably and immediately to result. When God consecrates and claims moral beings for Himself and His service, He commands that they should go on to be fit for and worthy of the relation in which He has placed them, and so we read of certain actions as performed “worthily of the saints” (Romans 16:2) and as such “as becometh saints” (Ephesians 5:3). The thought of the holy character of the “saints,” which is now so common as almost completely to obscure the real thought of the New Testament writers, already lay in their thinking very close to their conception of saintship as CONSECRATION BY GOD TO BE HIS OWN. ~ David Foster Estes

                    p.s. We are all sinners saved by GRACE the question remains ~ DOES ONE KNOW THIS YET. ~ The literal Holy Bible you speak of is for this purpose. ~ God has included ALL to this end ~ IN ADAM ALL DIE , IN CHRIST ALL ARE MADE ALIVE ~ ” For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.” (1 Cor. 15:22, 23)

                    p.s.s. ~ “Then said He (Jesus) , Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By this will ~ (GOD”S WILL) ~ WE have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once FOR ALL.” (Hebrews 10: 10)

                    p.s.s.t ~ For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been SHOWN mercy ~ remember that you were ~ AT THAT TIME ~ separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 4, 2013 at 11:41 am

                      Hi Stephen

                      That was a great post dear sir. i enjoyed it thoroughly.

                      Grace and Peace patrick

              • Patrick Strickland April 7, 2013 at 2:53 pm

                Actually there dear sir when I spoke that to the young lady and answered her question I did not yet believe in the salvation of all men. The event described where God got in my mouth happened late December or early January of 1986, 87. It was not till later in the year after summer in September of 87 when I went on a forty day fast to have God show me his desire and make it mine so it could be granted Psa 37:4; Pro 10:24. That is when He showed me the truth of the salvation of all men. So you have it backwards I did not make an assumption based upon a belief that I had previously. God showed me one thing first what I spoke to the young lady, then later he showed me what I accept as truth for all men.

                In our minds we are all born as “them” enemies in our minds to God and the things of the spirit. It is only after we hear him speak and he quickens us that we become “us”.

                Eph 2:1-10 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; (2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: (3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. (4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

                Scripturally we all started out as them in Adam, but according to scripture all who have born the image of the earthly shall bear the image of the heavenly. So all that are born ‘them’ become ‘us’.

                1Co 15:42-50 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                Rom 5:12-21 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (15) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

                Did you know that every denomination quotes that scripture to back up what they think is true. The Catholics quote it to the Baptists, the Baptists quote it to the Pentecostals, the Pentecostals quote it to those who believe in Kingdom; On and on it goes, all of them quoting it to prove what their denomination holds up as truth is from God yet everyone else is antichrist for believing something different then what head quarters accepts as truth.

                Yet have you ever wondered who John was actually talking about? He was speaking about all those who because of the spirit of antichrist in them went away from those who are being taught through the anointing and revelation of the Spirit by the Lord Himself. I for one will keep seeking for God to teach me by his anointing what He truly meant by what he had written, and if that makes me an antichrist in your eyes, and in the eyes of your denomination, or any denomination for that fact then so be it. I am not trying to please any man only the Lord. If I have missed it then He is more than able to correct me, since he has many times before.

                Grace and peace Patrick

                • Lanny A. Eichert April 8, 2013 at 12:16 am

                  Patrick, examine your statement against Scripture. You say “all” while Scripture says “we” indicating you have changed the meaning of the text written by a saint to saints about saints.

                  according to scripture all who have born the image of the earthly shall bear the image of the heavenly

                  (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

                  (49) And as we {saints} have borne the image of the earthy, we {saints} shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

                  It does NOT say:
                  (49) And as we {everybody} have borne the image of the earthy, we {everybody} shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

                  Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth {Isaiah 45: 22} does NOT say “living and dead” and clearly means those living on the earth.

                  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
                  let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
                  they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
                  among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
                  Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
                  The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
                  for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
                  For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

                  • Patrick Strickland April 11, 2013 at 12:39 pm

                    Hi Lanny The context starts much earlier then just that verse it starts at the beginning of the chapter. but the discussion where Paul compares Adam to Christ starts at verse 20 here is the context:

                    1Co 15:20-50 KJV But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. (24) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (25) For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (26) The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (27) For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. (28) And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (29) Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (30) And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? (31) I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. (32) If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. (33) Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. (34) Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? (36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: (38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. (39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. (40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. (41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. (42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: (43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. (46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. (47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. (48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. (49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. (50) Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

                    Lanny I have examined my statement against many scriptures including the context it is in; You know the context a saint talking to saints about what kind of body those who are resurrected shall have which includes saints but is not limited to just the saints. Let us consider the context of Paul’s writings first; Since Paul did say to Timothy that “God will have ALL men saved and come into knowledge of the truth” and in the same letter to Timothy He stated that “we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of ALL men, specially of those that believe.” This he called “a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance” and that we are “to command and teach this” to all we speak to. Paul to the Ephesians said that in the dispensation of the fulness of time God would gather together in one ALL things INTO CHRIST. Paul also stated to the Colossians that “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things INTO himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.” Paul even declares to the Romans in Chapter 5 in many different ways that In Adam ALL die but in Christ ALL shall be made alive. Just like the context of I Cor 15 declares. Earlier in the same chapter under discussion Paul made this statement as part of the discussion where He compared Adam to Christ which is the beginning of the discussion in context.

                    1Co 15:21-22 KJV For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
                    In context the “we” in verse 49 is actually the “all” of verse 22. Since in the dispensation of the fullness of time all men are going to be gathered into Christ then ALL MEN shall be made alive IN CHRIST.

                    Paul also stated later in the chapter 8 of Romans that ALL creation is groaning and travailing for the manifestation, the revelation, the unveiling of the Sons of God so that they may be brought into the same liberty of the glory of the Sons of God that they have received from God. That was not just part of creation but all of creation including ourselves who have this precious gift of eternal life given to us.

                    Now let us consider for a moment Jesus who said that there was coming a day when all of the dead shall hear his voice not just some of the dead but all of the dead and the dead will be raised out of death into life. He also stated that if he was lifted up upon the cross he would drag ALL men unto himself to look at the cross, and ALL who look shall be saved, made whole and healed. Now with all of that in consideration Let us look at the fact that a saint was speaking to saints about what kind of body those who are resurrected out of death would have. There is not one person who has not borne the image of the earthly, and as he said to the Romans and Corinthians “in Adam all die”. We who have borne the image of the earthly includes all men who are born into this earth and not just your exclusive saints club. It is not an us vs. them thing, where we are worthy of blessing and they are only going to get eternal torment. When Christ died for ALL he did not die just for us, but he died for all men and when he died ALL men died. All who died in Christ are going to be made alive in Christ. In God’s perspective there is no us and them, it is all Christ.

                    We all have a natural tendency of taking on an attitude of us vs them or as Paul said “I am of Paul or I am of Apollos”; we could say I am a baptist or I am catholic, I am a pentecostal, I am a believer. All who belong to our group is OK, but any who does not belong to our group is worthy of punishment. That is nothing but carnal thinking an enemy of God, an attitude that causes nothing but strife, conflict and division. We can even say we are of Christ, and think that someone else is not that is even carnal thinking. All men were created in Christ before the foundation of the earth, all are going to be gathered back into him in the dispensation of the fulness of time. Christ died for all. All died in Adam and ALL shall be made alive in Christ. The division of us vs them is only in our carnal minds. Granted it appears to be a reality for most of us in this earth, but from God’s perspective it is nothing but a lie an enemy to what he truly is doing in the earth.

                    I find it interesting that when Paul speaks about being carnal immediately he proves all men are going to be saved so we can know that there in no us vs them.

                    1Co 3:1-15 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? (5) Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. (7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. (8) Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. (9) For we are labourers together with God: ye are God’s husbandry, ye are God’s building. (10) According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (11) For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (12) Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (13) Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. (14) If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. (15) If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

                    To sum it up I Corinthians 15 is declaring that the glory of each individuals resurrected bodies are going to be different in glory from someones else’s body: but the fact remains the same, Since we ALL die in ADAM we have all borne the image of the earthly. This is not just the saints but every man ever born into this earth. Since ALL men shall be made alive in Christ that means we shall all bear the image of the heavenly. Context is about what all of our bodies will be like at the resurrection. And since Jesus is going to resurrect all men out of death then “we” must include all men and not just the saints as you claim.
                    Lanny for all the reason listed and many more not even discussed I cannot believe us is only the saints. You are free to believe that but I for one absolutely cannot.

                    Grace and Peace Patrick

                  • Lanny A. Eichert April 11, 2013 at 8:28 pm

                    Patrick, I pity you cannot read simple English in context.
                    Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours {1 Corinthians 1: 2}

                    NOT every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven {Matthew 7: 21}

                    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}

                    Jesus spoke these words you refuse to accept: us and them.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 21, 2013 at 12:45 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      I do believe what God said I just do not believe the interpretation your denomination and many others have put upon scriptures. That is why I constantly seek Him to teach me what he actually meant by what he had written. This is the job of the anointing in us to teach us and lead us into all truth. That is why I told you and continue to tell you that unless God teaches you then what I am saying you will absolutely not believe it.

                      No I must inform you dear sir that I absolutely don’t refuse to accept us and them. After the flesh there clearly is many different divisions of us and them. Man after the flesh continually divides himself from others over national boundaries, political affiliations, religious beliefs, sex and even sexual orientations; what ever you can name someone somewhere will divide themselves from others over it. Division is clearly an attribute of the carnal mind. Paul clearly recognized this fact and he stated clearly that he could not speak to the saints of Corinthian as spiritual, but only as babes, carnal; Even though they were saved as long as they recognized divisions and their was strife and envying among them, they were proving that they were just babes in Christ and still carnal.

                      1Co 3:1-4 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. (2) I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. (3) For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

                      I refuse to allow myself to be called by any denominations name, I am not a catholic, nor am I a Baptist or a pentecostal, you name it I am not any of those things. People use names to create division in the body of Christ When most people use whatever name they call themselves there is automatically in their minds that there is someone who is not part of their group. I am a Catholic and you are not. I am a baptist and you are not. I am a believer and you are not. I am a church of Christ member and you are not. I am even still a babe in Christ, carnal in my thinking if I ever use it in the sense of creating division by saying I am of Christ and someone else is not. We have been given the mind of Christ and we should all be joined together in the same mind the mind of Christ. We individually must learn to let this same mind operate and be in us that was in Him so that there may be no divisions among us who are His body.

                      1Co 1:10-13 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (only someone mature perfect in him can do this) (11) For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. (12) Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. (13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized into the name of Paul?

                      Many will apply that scripture about speaking the same thing and having the same mind to believing the same thing our denomination teaches, And everyone who is not of our group speaking the same thing and thinking the same thing we think will burn in hell forever. But clearly this is not what God is speaking about we must speak the same thing Jesus Christ did and he only spoke what he heard his father say. We must press into the place of maturity in Him where we only speak what we hear our Father say. We must have the same mind Christ has so we may think the same way he does.

                      A mature attitude is I am of Christ and all men are of Christ. There is no division in Christ. That attitude of I belong and you don’t is nothing but proof that that person is still just a babe in Christ, who is under the law, and is not truly mature enough to eat meat yet. It is clear proof that that man creating divisions in the true body of Christ is still just carnal in their thinking. Being carnal simply means that your mind still pertains to the things of the flesh, and continues to live from the nature of the flesh and continues to be under control of your animal appetites. This is why most Christians still struggle with the sins of the flesh. They have never put off the old man. One moment they are living from the carnal nature and the next they are living from the spiritual nature. Since they have not yet learned to discern from which source of life they are living from they assume that by separating us from them they are being spiritual even though Paul clearly says that they are actually are just being carnal. Paul also stated that the natural mind cannot receive the things of the spirit of God just one chapter earlier, it takes the spirit of God to show us what is spiritual and we must be in the spirit to receive what he shows us.

                      1Co 2:9-3:1 KJV But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. (16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. (3:1) And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

                      It is any wonder that many cannot receive the things I am declaring since they continue to call themselves by whatever denomination name they go by first and foremost, whether it is Baptist, Catholic, Pentecostal, Church of God, Church of Christ, Methodist, Lutheran, or whatever they may call themselves? Is it any wonder that many continue to see only just “us and them” in scriptures when they continue to operate out of the carnal mind and not out of the mind of Christ which we have been given. Is it any wonder that instead of listening to the spirit of God teaching us what truth is many only listen to carnal minded men bound to the system of division teach their view of what they think scripture says. The mind of Christ sees that Jesus died for all men and now all men are clean, the carnal mind of men does not. In a vision to Peter; God told him to call not that which I have cleansed unclean; this spake he of the gentiles who the entire Jewish nation, ‘us’ considered all gentiles ‘them’ as unclean, this same carnal attitude continues to day in the carnal church system where the believer ‘us’ is considered clean and the unbelievers ‘them’ are considered unclean. That attitude goes against what God told Peter. Call not that which I have cleansed unclean.

                      The mind of Christ when allowed to operate in us will cause us to see all men as pure because of what he did at the cross. The carnal mind will not see all as pure, only ‘us’ who are part of our group and believe exactly like we do are pure all others who do not believe exactly like we do are considered as them impure. The man who allows the mind of Christ to operate in them will have a single eye to serve only the Lord in all matters. The carnal mind will not and cannot have a single eye only upon the Lord but from one moment will try to serve God and the next will serve the animal appetites that the flesh has, and therefore because of this wavering will view itself as impure, and will conclude that everything around it as impure.

                      Tit 1:15-16 KJV Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. (16) They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

                      Those who are becoming mature in Christ will begin to see that in Christ there is no us and them. There is no division in Christ. Those who are becoming mature in Christ have put off the old man AND HIS WAY OF THINKING WHICH DIVIDES AND SEPERATES; and have put on the new man who is Christ ALONG WITH HIS MIND, HIS WAY OF THINKING and will see that Christ is ALL and IN ALL.

                      Col 3:9-11 KJV Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; (10) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: (11) Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL, AND IN ALL.

                      Rom 13:14 KJV But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

                      Gal 3:27-28 KJV For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

                      Denominations are nothing but nurseries for babies. Where babies in pulpits feed milk to babies which happens to be what they consider as truth and from one denomination to another truth is different. They will argue over if miracles have ceased or if they are for today: they will argue over how to be baptized should you use the name of the father son and holy ghost or should we use Jesus name only. They will argue over if tongues is of the devil or not. They will argue over trinity or oneness, Calvinism or Armenism. They will argue if a man can be saved by simply believing the word, or believing and confessing and they will be saved, or if they need to do all that and be baptized in water before they can be considered saved, some will even argue that unless you are baptized with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of Speaking in tongues you are not saved. Their is no end to what they will argue over. And everyone who disagrees with their particular version is going to hell because of some perceived sin. This is nothing but carnal immature baby thinking according to Paul. Paul also clearly declared that children are under tutors and governors until they grow up. Now guess who is their tutor. It is the Law which adds a whole new set of problems to the mix.

                      Gal 4:1-3 KJV Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; (2) But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. (3) Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

                      Gal 3:22-25 KJV But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. (23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. (24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. (25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

                      Rotherham declares that the school master in the KJV is our tutor.

                      Gal 3:22-26 Rotherham But the Scripture, did shut up, all things, under sin, that, the promise by faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to them who have faith, (23) Before the coming of the faith, however, under law, were we being kept in ward, being shut up unto the faith which should afterwards, be revealed. (24) So that, the law, hath proved, our tutor, training us, for Christ, in order that, by faith, we might be declared righteous; (25) But, the faith having come, no longer, are we, under a tutor;— (26) For ye, all, are, sons of God, through the faith in Christ Jesus;

                      As a babe and child in Christ you can meet Jesus as your savior and experience passover, The outer court, and even come to Pentecost, be holy ghost filled, in your life the inner court, but you can still be under the law living by the flesh. You might be heir of all but as long as you are still a babe or a child you are still under the law. And the bad part is you may think you see clearly but there is a veil over you eyes when reading the word till you come to fulness of the faith that Jesus Christ has been given and His faith becomes your faith. God wants us to go on into perfection maturity and enter the feast of tabernacles where he fully moves into His temple your body and you enter into the holy of holies to commune with Him face to face where we behold His glory and are changed into the same image he has, and learn to rule and reign with him. When we enter into this place we will walk like Christ and we shall talk like Christ and what he did we shall do.

                      Gal 3:22 CLV But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ’s faith may be given to those who are believing.”

                      2Co 3:13-16 KJV And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: (14) But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. (15) But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. (16) Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

                      Now as long as anyone desires to stay immature and under the law they will never be perfect.

                      Heb 7:18-19 KJV For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. (19) For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

                      For those who are pressing to be mature The truth is that the law was disannuled at the cross of Christ two thousand years ago and the bringing in of a better hope has perfected us in Christ Jesus. And where there is no law there is no sin to be imputed to anyone Rom 5:13. God is not holding the world accountable for any sins they may have done since Jesus took away the sins of the whole world.

                      2Co 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

                      2Co 5:19 CLV how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.”

                      God is not mad at anyone for any sins they have done or will do. Jesus took away all of the sins of the world at the cross; but that is not all he did he obliterated the handwriting of ordinances which was against us. Ordinances comes from the Greek word dogma and means according to Thayer’s

                      Dogma
                      1. doctrine, decree, ordinance
                      a. of public decrees
                      b. of the Roman Senate
                      c. of rulers
                      2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
                      3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

                      The rules and requirements of the law of Moses was completely obliterated and nailed to the cross of Christ.

                      God has hidden many things in the stories of scripture. Their is a story in scripture which literally happened but has a deeper spiritual truth hidden which has some application to what I am talking about.

                      Mar 5:5-16 KJV And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. (6) But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, (7) And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. (8) For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. (9) And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. (10) And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. (11) Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. (12) And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. (13) And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. (14) And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done. (15) And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid. (16) And they that saw it told them how it befell to him that was possessed with the devil, and also concerning the swine.

                      Who are called tombs graves in scripture? Why the pharisees the teachers of the law are the tombs Luke 11:14. Many times the people who lived near the tombs would get ahold of the lunatic and dress him and put chains upon Him. He would break these chains strip off his clothing and chase them away They would dress him in their righteousness and put the chains of the law upon Him. This only strengthened the sin nature in him The strength of sin is the law. And this man would break the chains put on him, and Guilt would immediately overcome him causing him to feel unclean. The lunatic represented the true heart of a man under the law the heart of a man who was rebellious who walked after his own thoughts and provoked God to anger, and declared to all those around him don’t come near me I am holier then thou as described in Isa 65

                      Isa 65:2-5 KJV I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; (3) A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; (4) Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; (5) Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.

                      The lunatic would seek help from the tombs of religion to alleviate the guilt and uncleanness he felt to the depth of his core and all they could do is repeat the same process over again. They would clean up the outward man dress him in self righteousness and put chains upon him by preaching more law upon him. Then he would break the chains again strip his clothing off and feel the guilt and shame of being unclean because he broke the law again. When he saw Jesus afar off he immediately recognized Him and ran to him seeking mercy because he knew he was unclean from breaking all the chains of law that he did, and was only worthy of hell. All the demon possessed man thought he deserved was hell Jesus cast out the unclean spirit and the spirits entered into the swine nearby which represented all those who are still unclean in their minds and they drowned themselves in the sea. Jesus then clothed the lunatic in his righteousness Rev 19:8 and gave him a right mind the mind of Christ. Their are many who through shame and guilt think they are unclean and deserve hell for breaking the law who will receive something totally unexpected when they run into Jesus Christ.

                      Hanging around the tombs of religion and being under the law can lead one to be possessed by an unclean spirit where everyone you meet is considered unclean by you especially your own self. That is not all… Spiritually speaking as long as you seek to be under the law you are considered spiritual Ishmael, the flesh and are still under bondage, and are not considered the child of promise. Gal 4:19-31. Under the law we all try to perfect the flesh by the power of the flesh. And we tend to think we are holier then others who are not doing the same thing we are. Yet when we do break the law and we all eventually do break the law, because we are trying to keep it just by the power of the flesh; consequently we are thrown into a vicious cycle of torment and grief, and oddly thinking that we are holier then those who are not doing the same things we are. But sadly never experiencing total victory in our lives. We might get some small victory in one or two areas of our life only to find out that we are now breaking the law somewhere else in our life. And because of this all we see is that which is unclean The law will bless you as long as you keep it and will curse you when you don’t. Scripture declares that their is a way that seems right unto man but the end thereof is death Pro 14:12. That is not the way of sin because that has never seemed right to anyone. No that way that leads to death is a religious way. It is living by the ministry of death and condemnation, which Paul called the law. That is why carnal babes in Christ see the divisions that they do and expect God to bless those who believe like they do and to curse any who does not to eternal hell. They are living by a mixture of the law and grace. They are trying to perfect the flesh by the power of the flesh and all the time they are thinking they are holier than anyone who is not because of what they are doing. Yet they are declaring they are saved by grace. This is nothing but the way of death. We are not justified by the works of the law but through the faith of Christ Gal 2:16.

                      Gal 3:2-7 KJV This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (3) Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Remember the law made nothing perfect; so the obvious answer no we are not made perfect by the flesh)(4) Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. (5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? (6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. (7) Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

                      I personally am seeking to be perfect, mature of a full age in him and the only way to do that is to hear his voice speaking to so faith may come. I like milk especially chocolate milk, but I cannot subsist and exist, and thrive only on milk I need meat and meat is only given to those who are perfect of a full age in Him. My meat is to do the will of my father in heaven and if I cannot hear his voice I cannot do his will. Everyone who uses just milk is still just a babe and is carnal in their thinking and is according to the word unskillful in the word of righteousness. Unskillful in the Greek is translated from the word apeiros and means inexperienced, ignorant. Meat belongs to those going unto perfection. Milk spiritually speaking is the doctrines of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eonian judgment.

                      Heb 5:12-6:3 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. (13) For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. (14) But strong meat belongeth to them that are perfect- of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (6:1) Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, LET US GO INTO PERFECTION; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eonian judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

                      If after the natural, a baby from birth eats just milk that is not a problem, but if they are ten twenty or thirty years old and are still eating just milk then there is a serious problem. Sadly the churches are full of babies who are not growing up, and are remaining carnal in their thinking and are eating nothing but just milk. It is past time for the different denominations which call themselves the church to grow up and stop being a bunch of spiritual babies. It is time for us to put away our childish thinking and reasoning’s and seek only to see him face to face so he can remove the veil over our eyes and teach us.

                      1Co 13:10-12 and when that which is perfect mature of a full age may come, then that which is in part shall become useless. (11) When I was a babe, as a babe I was speaking, as a babe I was thinking, as a babe I was reasoning, and when I have become a man, I have made useless the things of the babe; (12) for we see now through a mirror obscurely, and then face to face; now I know in part, and then I shall fully know, as also I was known;

                      Paul clearly said that he was speaking to the Corinthians as only babes, carnal minded because of the divisions among them. But at the same time he was speaking wisdom from before the ages of time started, a hidden wisdom in them that are perfect.

                      1Co 2:6-7 KJV Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

                      As we have seen the natural carnal mind is not going to receive this hidden wisdom that Paul is trying to convey. Babies who are carnal in their thoughts cannot understand what those who are mature can. Babies are ignorant of the deeper things of God and have no idea what he really wants to do. Only those who are actively pressing into perfection who hear the voice of their Father and of Jesus are being made perfect mature in Him and will come into this deeper wisdom ordained for us from before the world that Paul actually spoke.

                      The TRUE five fold ministry from God will always seek to present everyman perfect- mature in Christ. They will not try to keep everyone as babies stuck in carnal wranglings over what they think the word means leading us astray from becoming mature in Christ. They will seek God’s face till he speaks and they will share what He declares unto the people he wants them to speak to.

                      Eph 4:11-16 and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers, (12) unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, (13) till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, TO A PERFECT MAN, TO A MEASURE OF STATURE OF THE FULLNESS OF CHRIST, (14) THAT WE MAY NO MORE BE BABES, (CARNAL) TOSSED AND BORNE ABOUT BY EVERY WIND OF DOCTRINE, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray, (15) and, being true in love, we may GROW UP INTO Him in all things, who is the head–the Christ; (16) from whom the whole body, being fitly joined together and united, through the supply of every joint, according to the working in the measure of each single part, the increase of the body doth make for the building up of itself in love.

                      So I will leave you with the words of Paul to the Ephesians. NOTICE HOW HEARING HIM IS ESSENTIAL for us who once were darkened in our understanding and walked as others in the vanity of our mind because of the ignorance and hardness of our hearts to deliver us from lasciviousness and all uncleanness in greediness so that we may put on the new man.

                      Eph 4:17-24 YLT This, then, I say, and I testify in the Lord; ye are no more to walk, as also the other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, (18) being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart, (19) who, having ceased to feel, themselves did give up to the lasciviousness, for the working of all uncleanness in greediness; (20) and ye did not so learn the Christ, (21) IF SO BE YE DID HEAR HIM, AND IN HIM WERE TAUGHT, AS TRUTH IS IN JESUS; (22) ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, (23) and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, (24) and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 21, 2013 at 11:19 pm

                      Patrick this statement you made on the 21st @ 12:45pm:
                      A mature attitude is I am of Christ and all men are of Christ.
                      proves you do NOT believe in “us” and “them” as I so stated repeatedly. You only believe in your version of “us” as everybody is or will be saved. Your POSITION is ANTICHRISTIAN, because Jesus disputes you in Matthew 7: 13 & 14

                      Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

                      Jesus makes a clear distinction between the many and the few. The many are the lost and perishing like the liberal “them” to which you belong and the few are the saved like the fundamentalist “us” to which I belong.

                      You make Paul’s doctrine more perfect than Christ’s doctrine, essentially calling Christ a Liar.

                    • admin April 22, 2013 at 12:33 am

                      If the Bible is literal and perfect, as you claim it is, then there is no such thing as a “more” perfect doctrine from Paul, since Paul’s writings, aka, the Bible, are supposed to already be “literal” and “perfect”. If Paul’s doctrine, aka, the Bible, is more perfect than Christ’s doctrine, aka, the Bible, then the “literal” and “perfect” Bible is contradicting itself, or as you say, calling Christ a Liar. If Paul’s doctrine is not as perfect as Christ’s doctrine, then the Bible contains “imperfection.”

                      Regarding your statement: “You make Paul’s doctrine more perfect than Christ’s doctrine, essentially calling Christ a Liar.” and your other favorite statement: The Bible is “literal and perfect” – these two concepts are incompatible. You should think about this for a while.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 22, 2013 at 1:03 am

                      Alice, there is such a thing as a “more” perfect doctrine from Paul when your bible is NOT perfect and that’s my point to Patrick and you.

                      The two concepts that are incompatible is the false doctrine promoted on your site and the truth contained in the perfect literal Holy Bible.

                    • admin April 22, 2013 at 8:21 am

                      Please explain, “there is such a thing as a ‘more’ perfect doctrine from Paul when your bible is NOT perfect and that’s my point to Patrick and you.” I’m not understanding what you are saying.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 22, 2013 at 2:59 pm

                      Alice, Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven {Matthew 7: 21} is the perfect example to which you and Patrick add the idea that Jesus supposedly does not mean “ever” or never; and where you get that supposed idea is from your misreadings of Paul’s Ephesians 1: 10 and Colossians 1: 20. So the two of you correct even Matthew 7: 13 & 14 as well the words of Jesus. You correct Jesus’ doctrine by Paul’s doctrine since your bible didn’t accurately provide Jesus’ meaning while correctly supplying Paul’s meaning.

                      If you had an infallible Holy Bible you’d justify all texts as accurate as printed and I’ve in previous posts explained Jesus does not save everybody, but those He has saved He gathers from among the unsaved into one company for their rewards and then judges the remainder and trashes them into eternal fire. That’s full reconciliation of His creation: putting everything in their proper places. Just think of reconciling your check register: accounting for all things in their rightful place.

                      As far as reconciliation goes, your problem is “unto Himself” in which you fail to account for the freedom God gave man to choose. Those who will not choose God God honors their choice with resultantly trashing them as they wished. God is true to “unto Himself” unto the free choice He “HIMSELF” gave them.

                      Your complaint doesn’t change Patrick’s statement:
                      A mature attitude is I am of Christ and all men are of Christ. It proves Patrick still does NOT believe in “us” and “them” as I so stated repeatedly. Patrick only believes in his version of “us” as everybody is or will be saved. His POSITION is ANTICHRISTIAN, because Jesus disputes him in Matthew 7: 13 & 14

                      Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

                      Jesus makes a clear distinction between the many and the few. The many are the lost and perishing like the liberal “them” to which you all belong and the few are the saved like the fundamentalist “us” to which I belong.

                      You all still make Paul’s doctrine more perfect than Christ’s doctrine, essentially calling Christ a Liar.

                      Patrick still attempts to eliminate “them” and preserve only “us” according to his false interpretations. Such a statement as I’ve quoted from him proves he falsely claims “No I must inform you dear sir that I absolutely don’t refuse to accept us and them.”

                    • Patrick Strickland April 25, 2013 at 2:53 pm

                      Lanny, you need to reread that last post thoroughly as long as you believe in us and them you are still just a babe in Christ and carnal in your thinking. If in your view my pressing into perfection maturity in him is antichristian then so be I will be antichristian to you but to God I am pressing into what he wants all men who are Christians to press into.

                      Heb 6:1-3 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, (2) Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (3) And this will we do, if God permit.

                      Where there are divisions and strife are you not still carnal and walk as men?

                      1Co 3:3-4 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? (4) For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

                      If Paul would have been alive today he could easily say for while one saith, I am Baptist; and another I am catholic; and another say I am Pentecostal are ye not carnal?

                      Being a babe carnal in your mind means you are still under the law, the letter written with ink that Paul said kills, It is called the ministry of death and condemnation for a reason dear sir. Now I am not judging you or condemning you at all, ALL of us must pass through that stage where we are under tutors and governors. All of us must grow from being just babies to children until finally we become mature perfect in Him. You can only see what you do because of where you are at in your growth in Him. But as you mature in Him your view will change to match His views and His mind will begin to function fully in you when you allow it to.

                      The truth be told I am far from antichristian , I am antitradition of men which make the word of God of none effect. I still love you in the Lord and I always will.

                      Grace and Peace from our lord and savior Jesus Christ

                  • Lanny A. Eichert April 12, 2013 at 2:47 am

                    Patrick, look how this works together:

                    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. {Matthew 7: 23}

                    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: {Matthew 25: 41}

                    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. {Matthew 25: 46}

                    Them and us again just as also below.

                    The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished {2 Peter 2: 9}

                    Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. {Ecclesiastes 8: 11}

                    Patrick, though the unjust be in Hades until the Day of Judgment at which time they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, they have been currently RESERVED all this time waiting for their final disposition. Since God caused to be written, that is, inspired Ecclesiastes 8: 11 as a solid truth of the human condition of which He knows full well, How say you this punishment is remedial, when God delays the sentence?

                    If God’s will was that their punishment be remedial, He would have insured swift judgment for their sins. God is willfully NOT speedily sentencing the unjust, it seems, in order that their hearts will be fully hardened against the truth.

                    BTW: The κόλασις αἰώνιος of Matt. 25:46, as it is plain, is no merely corrective, and therefore temporary, discipline; cannot be any other than the ἀθάνατος τιμωρία (Josephus, B. J. ii. 8. II; cf. Antt. xviii. 1. 3, εἰργμὸς ἀΐδιος), the ἀϊδίοι τιμωρίαι (Plato, Ax. 372 a), with which the Lord elsewhere threatens finally impenitent men (Mark 9:43-48); for in proof that κόλασις with κολάζεσθαι had acquired in Hellenistic Greek this severer sense, and was used simply as ‘punishment’ or ‘torment,’ with no necessary underthought of the bettering through it of him who endured it, we have only to refer to such passages as the following: Josephus, Antt. xv. 2. 2; Philo, De Agric. 9; Mart. Polycar. 2; 2 Macc. 4:38; Wisd. 19:4; and indeed to the words of St. Peter himself (2 Ep. 2:9). This much, indeed, of Aristotle’s distinction still remains, and may be recognized in the scriptural usage of the words, that in κόλασις the relation of the punishment to the punished, in τιμωρία to the punisher, is predominant.
                    The above is from Richard C. Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament, vii. τιμωρία, κόλασις.

                    God’s deliberate delay of Judgment Day is another proof positive that He has NEVER planned to save everybody.

                    Have you also forgotten another us and them verse?
                    the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. {John 5: 28 & 29}
                    The voice of Jesus will raise even the BODIES of the unjust to life, but not to salvation life. You were naughty to suggest they come to some sort of good life when their life is condemnation.

                    Your logic is very deceptive all the way around in order for you to reject Jesus’ words and eternal torment.

                    • Patrick Strickland April 21, 2013 at 1:03 pm

                      Lanny has asked the questions previously:
                      You have NOBODY going to hell. Why is there even hell-fire and the Lake of Fire in the Bible if according to you nobody goes there because all the ends of the earth are saved?
                      What are you talking about where do I say no one goes to hades or the lake of fire? You cannot find that in anything I have written. I never said anything remotely like that. Seems to me that you are again building a straw man argument and are clearly either misunderstanding what I am writing or are purposely misrepresenting my position. Remember I have previously said that all the judgment verses get fulfilled. Many die and go to hell and many go to the lake of fire. All get judged and are guilty before God and all are shown mercy in God’s timing. .
                      Which hell are you talking about? Sheol in the Hebrew and hades in the Greek which are used the same in scripture and both are translated as hell and the grave the place of the dead: or are you talking about Gehenna, which is God’s junk yard where he burns up the trash. These three are nouns. There is another which is a verb tartaroo meaning to cast down to tartarus. There is a vast difference between each one.
                      Sheol, or hades:
                      Fire is never associated with sheol or hades in scripture IN THE SENSE OF A CONTINUAL FLAME BURNING THERE TO TORTURE THE INHABITANTS. Fire is never mentioned concerning either of those two words except twice once in deut 32:22 where God anger at Israel’s lack of faith ignites a fire that burns down to hell. FIRE THERE IS used as a figure of speech. Remember the Hebrew language used very flowery images for their figures of speech, and if taken literal which they should not, can cause the reader to make many false assumptions. The next few verses that followed Deut 32:22 give clear examples of what his fire actually is.
                      Deu 32:20-25 KJV And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. (21) They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. (22) For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (23) I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. (24) THEY SHALL BE BURNT WITH HUNGER, AND DEVOURED WITH BURNING HEAT, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. (25) The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
                      Have you ever seen someone burned with hunger? Or devoured by burning heat? THESE ARE ALL figures of speech describing the destructions of fire that came upon the men of Israel who had no faith, who were alive in the earth. This is the fire of God: GOD BURNED THEM WITH HUNGER, HE DEVOURED THEM WITH THE BURNING HEAT OF THE DESERT SUN. His anger burned unto the lowest parts of hell. Not one of these descriptions of God’s fire are of a literal fire that burns a person as a after death torture.

                      And the second exception where hades is cast into the lake of fire. Hades is not described as being on fire or having fire in it at all until it is cast into the lake of fire.

                      In the old testament all men who died went to sheol. Now according to scripture believe it or not the souls in sheol can be redeemed back to God.

                      Psa 49:15 KJV But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave (sheol): for he shall receive me. Selah.

                      Hos 13:14 KJV I will ransom them from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave (sheol), I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

                      How is death and the grave destroyed? It is destroyed by being swallowed up by the victory of Jesus Christ gave all at the cross. It is swallowed up by life.

                      1Co 15:54-57 KJV So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. (55) O death, where is thy sting? O grave (Hades), where is thy victory? (56) The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. (57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      2Co 5:4 KJV For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

                      In Hosea God said I will be thy destruction to sheol; and sheol is swallowed up in the victory of life. In John 1:1-14 Jesus Christ is called Light which is life Verse 4. Jesus is called the Word Verse 1-3,14. The Word of God according to scripture is a fire Jeremiah 5:14; 23:29. In Hebrews when you come to mount Zion to the place where you can hear his voice and everything that can be shaken out of you is shaken out by the spoken word of Christ and you receive a kingdom from God which cannot be shaken immediately after a description of God is given as a consuming fire Heb 12:22-29. In Daniel there is a river of fire proceeding from the throne of God which destroys the beast. The beast is the nature that satan planted in us. The whole purpose of the fire is to burn up that which God did not plant.

                      Dan 7:9-11 KJV I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. (10) A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (11) I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

                      This is clearly a old testament reference to the lake of fire. God is life… He is the consuming fire that burns up everything that offends, He is the lake of fire In Ezekiel 47 there is a related passage where there is a river proceeding from the throne which brings life wherever it goes. The word is described as both fire and water. Both rivers are the same. The word is the fire that burns all that hinders his plan from coming to pass and he is the water bringing life where ever he flows.

                      Christ is the light – life that lighteth every man that came into the world. But men loved darkness – death more then they loved the light because of the seed satan planted in them. Every man born into this world is alive because of the life they have from the seed of Christ planted in them.

                      However the Greeks attached their mythology to the word hades, and their hades was a place of burning and of constant torture for the wicked dead, and was ruled by the god Hades – Pluto. The early church on the main did not believe in this hellenistic view for the first three hundred years until men brought this pagan carnal view into the church changed it and began to teach it as truth.

                      It is totally amazing to me the total lack of fire associated with sheol and hades in scriptures. Man can be redeemed from sheol. This is something your religion will not teach. According to your religion once there always there, Which scripture as you can see does not support and furthermore when you properly understand aion and its adjective aionios as an age and that which pertains to an age it makes it impossible for me to believe.

                      Aion aionios:

                      Aion is translated directly into the English by the word eon. Eons or Ages if you prefer, have beginnings and ages have endings. Ages can be very short or very long. Aion or its adjective should never be translated as forever, with only one exception that I can think of. The lifetime of a man is a aion, the lifetime of a tree is a aion, the lifetime of a mayfly is a aion. The time it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun is a aion. Now the adjective when applied to the life of God which has no beginning nor end but is endless can take on the understanding of eternity. The reason I say this is in Hebrews seven the life of Jesus is said to be endless which is a completely different Greek word used, akatalutos, which means indissoluble, not subject to destruction. The life of Jesus we have been given is described as endless, indissoluble, not subject to destruction, with no beginning or end, and pertains to the lifetime of Jesus an age which never ends. Judgment however is only described as pertaining to an age. It is never described as akatalutos. Therefore correction has a beginning and has an end.

                      An adjective that modifies a noun and in a sentence when used more than once can have two or more entirely different meanings. Let us use big as an example: We can talk about a big atom, a big molecule, a big house cat, a big person, a big planet, a big solar system, a big galaxy; so how big is Big? It all depends on what you are talking about, what the adjective is modifying. Aionios life can be forever when you are talking about the endless life that Jesus is sharing with us, aionios kolasis is not forever since kolasis is never described as endless akatalutos, but only as pertaining to an age. So how long is an aionios?

                      Kolasis comes from kolazo which means to chastise. So God’s punishment serves a purpose to chastise who he considers as part of his family since he is the father of all spirits. He is only going to chastise his sons that need it. But all chastisement when it accomplishes his purpose ends.

                      You think I am being deceptive when I say that God is going to speak and all are going to be raised and eventually saved; because you read that there is a resurrection into life and there is a resurrection into judgment. I am glad you finally brought that up I have been waiting for you to do just that. Men who have accepted Jesus sacrifice on the cross are resurrected into life immediately . Those who have not accepted Christ when they are resurrected still think they are the old man that they are from birth and do not realize that Jesus is the light that gives them life. When they are resurrected because they are still dead in their trespasses and sins in their minds, they must enter into the judgment of God, the fire of God which burns up all that offends all he did not plant in them. They will lose who they think they are. But ultimately the reason for this is to bring them into victory. God’s judgments are into victory.
                      Healing is God’s judgment. The fire will burn away the tare they think they are and reveal that the wheat God planted in them was there all the time and they just did not know it

                      Mat 12:15-21 KJV But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all; (16) And charged them that they should not make him known: (17) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, (18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. (19) He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. (20) A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory. (21) And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.

                      All men are commanded to repent but it will take the goodness of God to bring them to repentance. Acts 17:30; Roman 2:4

                      God’s judgments can be very severe to any man who is resurrected to that resurrection of judgment He can kill us and make us alive. He can inflict us and he can heal us. All his judgment verses are going to be fulfilled upon that person but all of his judgments are for a purpose…to chastise his child, so that they may ultimately come into the victory Christ paid for all men. His fire is going to burn up all the wood, hay, and stubble we may have built in our lives but the foundation will remain and all shall be saved yet by fire.

                      Gehenna:

                      On the other hand is related to fire. Gehenna is the valley of Hinnon where the Jews burned their trash and offered their children to Molech by fire which thing never entered into God’s mind Jer 32:35. There are only two sets of verses that deal with hell fire when dealing with Gehenna: What we say and removing an eye or a hand so we may not enter gehenna fire.

                      Now the first we will deal with is the tongue and what we say Matt 5:22 and James 3:6. Our tongue is a fire set on fire by gehenna.

                      Jas 3:5-18 KJV Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! (6) And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. (7) For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: (8) But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. (9) Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. (10) Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. (11) Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? (12) Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. (13) Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. (14) But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. (15) This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. (16) For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. (17) But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. (18) And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

                      Basically as a figure of speech we are going to eat what we say and we will get burned by what we are saying. We cannot bless God one moment and curse men who are made in his image the next. A good tree cannot produce both good fruit and bad at the same time. A good tree can only produce good fruit. Neither can a bad tree produce good fruit but only bad fruit. We cannot live by the carnal nature of man and expect to tame the tongue it is impossible. If there is strife: divisions, a courting distinction between clean and unclean a putting one’s self forward above all; and envying: jealousy malice caused by our tongue then it is not from the wisdom from above it is earthly, sensual, devilish. The wisdom from above is an affirmation of purity of being clean: calling not that which God has cleansed unclean. It is peaceable and will cause you to be safe, make you perfect, complete in him, it will bring you to an expected end in him, it will restore you and make restitution. The wisdom from above is gentle, equitable, just and fair. It is easy to be entreated, easy to be asked for, good to persuade, believe, conciliate, and to assent. The wisdom from above is full of mercy; replete with compassion, and good fruit. It is without partiality: It does not cause one to separate thoroughly and withdraw themselves from others, it does not discriminate, or contend to make a difference, it does not judge in partiality. The wisdom from above is without hypocrisy: it does not pretend or act like something it is not. It is not feigned in thought act or word. It does not asset that something is true when it is not, nor does it believe something to be true when it is not. There is no false assumption of an appearance of virtue because of what we may believe to be true because of the religion we may be under in the wisdom from above. The wisdom from above will always manifest true virtue, and good fruit.

                      Gehenna is God’s trash dump where he burns what offends. Now we can either get rid of what offends which can be as hard as cutting out our eye or cutting off our hand; or we will have God remove it for us (which will be much rougher on us) . Now God does not want us to literally cut off our hand or literally cut out our eye in order to avoid a literal burning hell. It is a metaphor nothing more. The fire of Gehenna is described as being unquenchable meaning that once the fire starts man cannot put it out; but that does not mean that the fire will not go out when all the fuel is burned up.

                      Tartarus:

                      Is the deepest part of hades according to Greek mythology. Peter is not endorsing Greek mythology of their burning hell, to prove his point but is merely stating that there are many demons chained in the deepest part of sheol or hades. He is relating it to the men of his time in a method that they could relate to.

                      Religion has taken all four words and mixed them together along with any mythology that was attached to them and covered them under the auspices of just umbrella- one word, not in either language, the hell they know and preach today. Even the word ‘hell’ itself has pagan origins it came from the Saxon helan meaning to cover.

                    • Stephen Helbig April 21, 2013 at 10:55 pm

                      “I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the heavens, to found the earth, and to say to Zion, ‘You are My people.”
                      ~ Notice ~ It would be accomplished by THE WORD OF THE LORD IN THE MOUTH OF HIS! ~

                      LET this Word of the Lord establish establish the heavens, to found the earth, ~ “Those who have not accepted Christ when they are resurrected still think they are the old man that they are from birth and do not realize that Jesus is the light that gives them life. When they are resurrected because they are still dead in their trespasses and sins in their minds, they must enter into the judgment of God, the fire of God which burns up all that offends all he did not plant in them. They will lose who they think they are. But ultimately the reason for this is to bring them into victory. God’s judgments are into victory. Healing is God’s judgment. The fire will burn away the tare they think they are and reveal that the wheat God planted in them was there all the time and they just did not know it.”

                      It is a trustworthy statement deserving full acceptance. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. These things command and teach (1 Timothy 4: 9-11) ~ Let this be the sum and substance of all thy preaching

                    • Lanny A. Eichert April 22, 2013 at 8:34 pm

                      Patrick, you begin with something I wrote way back on March 13, 2013 at 1:19 am above based on you poor use of Psalm 98:3 and Isaiah 45: 22. The use of those texts addressed to living people on the earth requires them to look and be save while they are mortally alive, so therefore since according to you all have looked {Psalm 98: 3}, all are saved before they die {Isaiah 45: 22}. Therefore you have no reason for hell or the Lake of Fire where only unsaved people go; and since all are saved according to your insistence on these two verses there are no unsaved people to die and go to hell.

                      You use these two verses together to prove everybody gets saved, but you do NOT understand what using these two verses together means. You know Psalm 98: 3 says in the past tense that they all have seen God’s salvation which Isaiah 45: 22 instructs them to do to be saved. They have complied with Isaiah 45: 22 and therefore according to that text they all are saved. All the ends of the earth are saved according to your application of these two verses, dear Patrick, and Hell / Lake of Fire are an unnecessary waste of God’s creative powers since nobody goes there for punishment.

                      Now how about addressing the reservation of the ungodly unto judgment {2 Peter 2: 9} which God does NOT seem in any hurry to do as He knows and wrote {Ecclesiastes 8: 11} Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Since swift corrective punishment is required for the punishment to be remedially effective, why does God delay the Great White Throne Final Judgment from which He punishes the ungodly? That does NOT seem a loving thing to do when He knows the delay sets their hearts toward evil. Swift justice leads to repentance, and if your god were lovingly endeavoring to bring them to repentance, he certainly would have swiftly brought them through judgment to punishment. Think how long Adam and Eve’s first son Cain has been reserved unto judgment: more than six thousand years !!! Is that the delay of a loving god you claim him to be?

                    • Patrick Strickland April 25, 2013 at 3:27 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Great questions since in sheol the grave or hell if you want there is no knowledge, so to Cain or anyone who has died and is now in sheol. there is no time spent waiting before they are raised back up. To them they die, sleep, and wake up to face judgment. Meanwhile thousands of years can pass before they are raised up to face the judgment unto victory

                      Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy handH3027 findethH4672 [H8799] to doH6213 [H8800], doH6213 [H8798] it with thy mightH3581; for there is no workH4639, nor deviceH2808, nor knowledgeH1847, nor wisdomH2451, in the graveH7585, whither thou goestH1980 [H8802].

                      Let me show you the word knowledge in the Hebrew:
                      – Original: דּעת
                      – Transliteration: Da`ath
                      – Phonetic: dah’-ath
                      – Definition:
                      1. knowledge
                      a. knowledge, perception, skill
                      b. discernment, understanding, wisdom

                      There is no perception in sheol. So how can anyone perceive being tortured?

                      Look up each word in the Strong’s and you will find out that your version of a men who are conscience in hell burning and being tortured is not supported by that verse at all. The verse says the exact opposite.

                      God has set up certain times to accomplish his divine purpose. Every age he is going to do certain things, in certain ways and he is in no hurry to bring about certain aspects of his plan before it’s appointed time to occur. Now God can and does make exceptions but as a rule he follows his plan which he laid out before the foundation of the world for all the different ages. In god’s order he is going to raise up Christ the first fruit, then those who belong to Christ then all the rest who make up the end are going to be subdued willingly under his rule and authority.

                      God is long suffering he is not slack concerning his promise. To men it may appear he is being slack but God is not willing for any man to perish but for all to come to repentance.

                      2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

                      This is his will and it shall be accomplished in his divine plan and purpose.

          • Lanny A. Eichert March 15, 2013 at 12:37 pm

            Patrick, do you acknowledge Isaiah 45: 22 is an invitation to earth dwelling peoples ONLY and is void after physical death?

            Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. {Isaiah 45: 22}

  • Lanny A. Eichert February 22, 2013 at 7:04 pm

    It is fruitless to openly denounce and argue point by point against the orthodox doctrine of eternal torment. That’s because Jesus prophetically speaking without remedy of the end said:

    Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven

    his angels shall gather all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

    {See Matthew 7: 21 & 13: 42}

    Likewise He prayed {John 17: 12} confirming Judas Iscariot’s lost condition before Judas even died.

    Then also there’s the last revelation given in the Holy Bible ending with the Lake of Fire populated without remedy.

    What more do you all need to be convinced eternal torment is the final estate of the unbelieving men and angels?

    Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. {Luke 16: 31}

  • Mary Vanderplas February 22, 2013 at 10:23 pm

    I don’t disagree that the comments about Julie Ferwerda are ridiculous – and totally unwarranted. I don’t think, though, that the text in Matthew is meant to warn against those who pretend to embrace widely accepted teaching while actually rejecting it, as opposed to those who make no pretense about their rejection of traditional teaching in favor of an alternative view. I think that what Matthew is warning against, rather, are charismatic prophets in the church who appear on the surface to be innocent and harmless, authentic members of the body of Christ, but who in fact are a danger, leading the church astray. What makes them a danger is that they fail to produce the fruit of a righteous life that is the result of conversion (v. 16ff.). I agree, though, that Julie is hardly a false prophet bent on deceiving. Rather than labeling her a heretic to be feared and shunned (and demonized), her critics would do well to consider seriously her thoughtful critique of their terrible doctrine.

    The question about the meaning and value of Christ’s work if in the end everyone is saved anyway reflects the misguided notion that the human response of faith is as important as the act of God in Christ.

  • Patrick Strickland February 23, 2013 at 5:16 pm

    Hi Alice:

    To make your picture complete of Julie she needed to have long elf ears and a magical staff. 🙂

    Great comments about false prophets who come in sheep clothing. The sad thing is there are whole congregations made up of wolves in sheep clothing looking for a sheep to eat. I pity the poor sheep that decides to make that pack his home He won’t be waking up for breakfast.

    Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2013 at 6:43 am

    Tell me if there is even one person listed in Hebrews 11 that got saved “by faith” after they had died in unbelief. Where is the account of their “by faith” exploits in the after-life? WHY IS IT NOT LISTED in the “by faith” chapter? WHY is it not listed anywhere in the entire Bible?

    Tell me WHY is less than 50% of the U. S. A. ‘s population claiming to be Christian if God wants all of us Christians to pray for all men to be saved and to expect him to answer our prayer and to proclaim that he does want to save all men?

    If God wants all of us Christians to pray for all men to be saved and to expect him to answer our prayer and to proclaim that he does want to save all men, then WHY is less than 10% of the world’s population claiming to be Christian?

    Tell me WHY God’s saints have always been the extreme minority since the world began, if God wishes to save all people?

    The NUMBERS themselves disprove your heretical statements of God saving everybody from perishing. The MAJORITY perish in hell upon physical death in unbelief.

    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    the great winepress of the wrath of God was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

    Did God FAIL? No, you just believe incorrectly and sow a falsehood ***

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets.

    Beware of false prophets, but have you noticed that warning follows immediately after verse 14? Beware of false prophets that tell you God saves everybody when Jesus just told you few are saved unto life.

    Can’t you folks use your heads? It just plain makes sense that the broad way accommodates more people than the narrow way. Especially being Americans who believe in freedom can’t you see freedom-minded people stear clear of narrow ways. Their motto is “Don’t fence me in.” They see the narrow way too restrictive and oppressive just as Alice calls “Biblical” in Bird’s Eye View 17Feb. That tells you which of the two paths she’s on. She, too, is a hell-bound sinner, *** until she finds Truth, if she ever will. Otherwise she’ll burn in hell forever in eternal torment. The numbers prove it. Numbers don’t lie.

    • Patrick Strickland February 28, 2013 at 7:14 pm

      Lanny has said

      “Numbers don’t lie.”

      OH Ye of little faith…Numbers are just facts. Facts are just a picture in time. Facts can change with the passage of time. Facts are not necessarily the truth. Facts can be true at a given moment; but any fact can be completely changed by faith in the truth. I am speaking spiritually so let me give you an example to help you understand what I am saying.

      You can go to the doctor and he can check you out and show you an x-ray and an MRI and both can show that you have cancer. That is a fact. It is something you can see, But the truth is that by His stripes ye are healed. So if you start seeking God to heal you and he tells you that verse and you believe him, then all of a sudden you are miraculously healed. The fact has now been changed simply by belief in the truth.

      But what happens if you go back to the doctor and he checks you out and you still have a cancer? You are now faced with a choice: Are you going to believe your circumstances; or are you going to believe God? This is where many fail in their faith towards God. Many if not most will go with their doctors report and will be swayed by their circumstances that they perceive with their five senses and become even sicker with the cancer, and may even die. Some will seek God till He speaks again and explain why they are still sick and He might say something like this which he spoke to me when I needed a healing for an item. “Let every man be a liar yet let God be true.” I repented for believing the lie, The lie was the fact. The truth was what God spoke So as I started to thank Him for his healing every time I thought about it; within a month the ailment was completely gone. I was healed the moment I heard him speak but it took time for that healing to manifest in my life. If I would have believed my body circumstances more then the word of God I would still have the ailment I had. But because of faith in God’s word the fact was replaced with the spiritual reality promised by His word. What He has done in my life he can do for anyone. This is but an example but the principle remains the same. Just because we have not come to the time when the promise is fully manifested for all to see does not mean the promise will not be fulfilled. Faith does not look at circumstances but only at the fact that God is able to do what he has promised to do.

      If Abraham considered for one second His circumstances after the flesh and the deadness of Sarah’s womb: Issac the promised child would never have been born. Abraham waited 25 years for the promise to be fulfilled. But the spiritual reality of the seed that Abraham was promised to have was actually not fulfilled for two thousand years when Christ was birthed Gal 3:16-29

      Rom 4:19-20 KJV And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb: (20) He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

      Your numbers only prove one thing your lack of faith and the fact you are considering the circumstances that you can see more then you are believing His sworn word to save all men. You are living just by sight not by faith. You need to repent and reverse the order and walk by faith, and quit walking by what you see in the numbers. Your faith in numbers and in the pagan doctrine of hell that the catholic church allowed into the church is destroying faith in the truth and making it impossible for you to pray his will for all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth where you can fully expecting him to answer your request because you prayed according to his will.

      2Co 5:7 KJV (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

      You could change the numbers of those you think are going to be saved from 10 percent all the way down to less than 1 percent but it still won’t change the faith I have in God’s promise for all men to be saved. I simply believe his promise. His command. His sworn word. The truth of this promise is beyond God’s ability to break it without Him becoming the greatest liar of all time. Which is absolutely impossible. I thank Him for keeping His promise all the time. I thank him for promising to hear me when I pray anything according to his will. I thank him for giving me my supplication. I thank Him for being the God who IS the saviour of all men. In God’s time I will see all men saved. It cannot be any other way. I have too many promises that guarantees with faith all things are possible to him that believes.

      Mar 9:23 KJV Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE TO HIM THAT BELIEVETH.
      Mar 11:23-24 KJV For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and SHALL NOT DOUBT IN HIS HEART, BUT SHALL BELIEVE THAT THOSE THINGS WHICH HE SAITH SHALL COME TO PASS; HE SHALL HAVE WHATSOEVER HE SAITH. shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. (24) Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, BELIEVE THAT YE RECEIVE THEM, AND YE SHALL HAVE THEM.
      Mat 17:19-21 KJV Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? (20) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, IF YE HAVE FAITH as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE UNTO YOU. (21) Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

      When Moses sent the 12 spies into the promised land to spy out the land two of them brought back a good report and said we are more then able to take the land flowing with milk and honey. The ten said “yes the land if filled with milk and honey but there are giants in the land and we are but grasshoppers in their sight. The two looked by faith and the ten were swayed by what they could see and persuaded almost all of Israel to believe their report: Israel then wanted to stone Joshua and Caleb for wanting to go in and take the land. God stepped in and saved the two and killed the ten and many that were on their side. All of Israel was banned from entering into the promised land at that time because they considered the numbers against them. They wandered in the wilderness till everyone over the age of twenty died, except the two men of faith. Joshua and Caleb waited forty years before they had a chance to battle the giants for the Promised land but their faith never wavered.

      It does not matter if there are giants in the land. We are more then able to take the promised land.

      It does not matter if the numbers do not support my position. Numbers are just facts. It does not matter if you do not believe in after death repentance, or the salvation of all men. I absolutely do and I can find it clearly word for word in scripture as a promise from God out of more then three witnesses mouths David testifies to it, Isaiah testifies to it Jesus testifies to it John testifies to it Peter testifies to it Paul testifies to it as do many others in scripture including Jehovah swearing, and commanding all the ends of the earth to look and BE SAVED. Any word of God only takes two or three witnesses to be established as coming from God… as a true word of God. It does not matter how long I will have to wait to see this promise come to pass …I HAVE A PROMISE OF GOD that has gone out of His mouth in righteousness and shall not return to him void but it shall accomplish what he sent it to do; a promise he has sworn by his own name to keep therefore I am more then able to take the promised land. Faith in the truth of His promise is all I need to change the opposing facts. With God All things are possible.

      Mat 19:25-26 KJV When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? (26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With MEN this is impossible; but WITH GOD ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE.

      Thank God for the truth of his word that has the power to correct and change any fact we can perceive.

      1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

      So as you can see Lanny Numbers can become a lie and can destroy your faith when considered above faith in God’s promised sworn word. Numbers have never been an issue with God. Faith is the issue. Two men who had faith delivered three million Jews from the Egyptians, two men of faith entered into the promised land when the rest of their peers died in the wilderness, except for those who were 20 years or younger. God whittled down an army from 32,000 to just 300 faith filled men to bring deliverance to Israel from the Midianites who were as numerous as grasshoppers, so that no man could glory in what they had done but that they could glory in what the Lord had done. God is looking for a few good men to bring all creation into the same liberty of the glory that they have received from God. God is not looking for numbers right now to accomplish this blessed deliverance but he is looking for men of quality faith, who will trust Him implicitly. Men and women who will walk and talk just like Jesus did when he walked in the earth bringing deliverance to everyone they are sent to. God is looking for Men who will not take the glory upon themselves for what the Lord has done but will give the glory back to God who did this wonderful thing.

      Heb 11:6 KJV But WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE HIM: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

      1Ti 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

      You are free to continue to believe your numbers and continue to produce reasons why you cannot pray the prayer of faith; I on the other hand will simply trust God and have faith in God’s promises no matter what the circumstances and numbers say; and I will continue to fully expect him to give me what He has sworn to do. Let every man be a liar yet let God be true. In the fullness of time I will see it come to pass, even though I already know I have what I prayed for because I prayed his will.

      Till next time Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert February 24, 2013 at 12:49 pm

    These ten verses in the Bible still prove salvation is NOT possible after physical death:

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
    let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
    they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
    among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
    Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
    The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
    for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
    For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

  • Mary Vanderplas February 25, 2013 at 5:09 am

    I submitted a response several days ago (Friday) that hasn’t yet been posted. Is this an unintended omission – or is there some other reason?

    • admin February 26, 2013 at 10:12 pm

      I can’t find it. I’m showing that there is a comment unapproved, but it isn’t in the list. I’ll try to figure it out.

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 25, 2013 at 8:24 pm

    Patrick admits: “must come to pass during a man’s lifetime, but since it does not come to pass in a majority of men lives”

    Dear Patrick, I’ve been tell you all along Isaiah 45: 22 ONLY fits at the beginning of the thousand year reign of Christ specifically with ethnic Israel. It is NOT an all ages precept.

    Patrick states: as long as you believe in us and them you are still just a babe in Christ and carnal in your thinking.

    I’m sorry to tell you Jesus in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 still believed in us and them.

    My ten Old Testament verses I’ve often quoted testify of conscious awareness in the grave, Jesus spoke of how aware the rich man was in Hades, and He spoke of unquenchable fire and maggots in hell.

  • Patrick Strickland May 5, 2013 at 1:55 pm

    My ten Old Testament verses I’ve often quoted testify of conscious awareness in the grave, Jesus spoke of how aware the rich man was in Hades, and He spoke of unquenchable fire and maggots in hell.

    Reply No they do not but you are free to misinterpret them all you want to. Why don’t you quote them again and we will go through each and every one: word for word and define them from the actual Hebrew and we will find out exactly what god is saying, if you are willing to.

    Hi Lanny:

    In the context it must be asked who is Jesus speaking to in Matthew seven? To me it’s obvious that he is speaking to the Jews a people who were at that time ONLY under the law. He wasn’t speaking to Christians, since none existed at that time; he was speaking the Jews. But it can apply to baby Christians who are still under the law, and are mixing the Law with grace, And when they do that they will fall into the same error that the Jews did. When Jesus said that many were walking on the path of destruction, but only a few were finding life; how many Jews actually found life during the time of Jesus? Only a few actually came to Jesus and followed him the rest continued to follow the religion of their forefathers, a religion that Paul said was a ministry of condemnation and death. And in 70AD the Jewish religion was completely destroyed, but in actuality the law was nailed to the cross of Jesus years before. Remember Lanny Jesus said: “You search the scriptures; for in them you think you have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And you will not come to me, that you might have life”

    Under the law, the Jews considered themselves clean, and everyone else as unclean. They thought that they were holier then all that were around them. Clearly they had an attitude of us versus them. When Jesus spoke to them he was trying to correct that attitude, but in order to deal with the attitude they had, he had to condescend to their level and speak in such a way that they could understand that if they continued in the path they were going, they were not going to enter into the kingdom, until they did come to Jesus, the source of life that we are supposed to live by. They thought they were doing the will of God by keeping the law but their flesh could not keep the law.

    Jesus said that if he would be lifted up he would draw all men onto himself. Paul further said that all Israel would be saved. God has put no time limit on the fulfillment of either one of these last statements but the condition of following the law will keep the fulfillment of this promise from coming to pass quickly.

    Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I OF CHRIST. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
    (1Co 1:10-13 KJV)

    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for WHEREAS THERE IS AMONG YOU ENVYING, AND STRIFE, AND DIVISIONS, ARE YE NOT CARNAL, AND WALK AS MEN? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; (implied from I Cor 1:12 “I AM OF CHRIST”) are ye not carnal?
    (1Co 3:1-4 KJV)

    How can saying ‘I am of Christ’ make you carnal?

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2013 at 2:08 pm

      Patrick, FOUR factions of contention are listed as examples: #1) I am of Paul; and #2) I of Apollos; and #3) I of Cephas; and #4) I of Christ. ALL four were contending in the flesh to be superior including the “I of Christ” faction. On this site that is your supposed faction.

      • Patrick Strickland May 7, 2013 at 12:22 pm

        True there are four factions in the scripture but it is not limited to just those four. It is clearly there to teach us a greater lesson; Any group that excludes and causes division or strife can fit being called carnal. And if you look at history that includes every denomination of Christianity has borne the fruit of carnality. It is a natural desire for us to fit into a group and it is a proven group dynamic that anyone who does not belong to our group will be treated as an outsider worthy of any punishment that they get.

        Check out “Through the Wormhole” season 3 episode 7 which deals with the source of evil, and shows a few very interesting experiments along that line. A doctor tested young children and she played a video with two different bears in the video one doing good things and other doing bad. Then the children were presented with two stuffed animals that looked just like the two in the show. 90% of the children choose the good bear. The doctor then did another experiment where she play acted with the bear they choose and it liked everything the child liked to do. Now the bear was accepted into their group. Along came the other bear who did everything that the child did not like to do, and the child rejected the bear. but more interestingly when it came time to punish both bears the child felt sad at punishing the bear that belonged to her group, but was more then willing to doll out punishment to the bear that did not belong to her group.

        This is a clear example of our natural mind in action. But a truly spiritual mind will recognize that Christ died for all men; and that he took the sins of the entire world to the cross. He did not just die for our group what ever our group is called, but he died for all men.

        Every denomination will tell you that we are safe because we believe, and as long as you do what we approve of you will remain safe, but God help those who don’t belong to our group, or who don’t do what they are told; all those fruits, nuts, and flakes are going to be slow roasted in the fire of hell till they are done, and unfortunately for them they will never be done.

        There is a deeper truth than that natural tendency that the churches have displayed. It is the way of love where we love our enemies and do good unto them, and pray for them that they all are saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. this is God’s will for all men. and anything we pray as long as it is his will he guarantees that he will give it unto us.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2013 at 12:56 am

    How can saying ‘I am of Christ’ make you carnal? You don’t know, Patrick? Answer your own question.

    • Patrick Strickland May 7, 2013 at 11:46 am

      Lanny responded to me by saying how can saying “I am of Christ” make you carnal? You don’t know, Patrick? Answer your own question.

      I find it interesting Lanny, that you refuse to answer the question asked of you. I have already answered the question, and you called me anti-Christian over my answer, Don’t you remember, I can quote what I said earlier if you would like or you can go back and read it. The choice is yours. My answer has not changed. However I am interested in hearing your answer if you would be so kind as to give it.

      Grace and peace Patrick

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 8, 2013 at 12:13 am

        Patrick, thank you for seeing above (May 6, 2013 at 2:08 pm) I did not refuse to answer your question: How can saying ‘I am of Christ’ make you carnal? Your (May 7, 2013 at 12:22 pm) response seems to agree saying ‘I am of Christ’ is indeed a carnal statement in its context.

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