Good Friday (Guest Blogger Edy T. Johnson)

Good Friday (Guest Blogger Edy T. Johnson)

Good Friday (Guest Blogger Edy T Johnson)

Edy writes in the voice of one of the men crucified with Christ.  Read the account in scripture here.

2013 Good Friday – Seven Last Words
Luke 23:46 – The Last Word

Then Jesus calling out with a loud voice, said, ‘Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.’ And having said this, He breathed his last.

==Reflection==

We heard this Rabbi speak. We heard the stories He told. I especially liked the one about the lost son who returned to his father. If I had a father, perhaps that might have been me. But, I had no home to go to. So, I got by, breaking into others’ homes to take what I needed. …OH, this pain!

The pain of the flesh is bad enough, but the anguish of the heart is simply devastating. Why did my life turn out this way? But, more important, why is this great Rabbi dying alongside us? Does a person’s life make no difference in the end? Good or bad, we all die!

Oh God! …..what am I saying? …..In this agony, my cries could fill Jerusalem. But, I won’t give them the satisfaction.

This Rabbi has me confused. Earlier He cried out to God, asking why He had forsaken Him, but now He calls God “Father,” and gives up His spirit to Him, rather like a last will and testament, turning over all He has to His heirs.

Why can’t it end for me, like that? Why cannot I just announce that I’ve had enough and say goodbye?

I know! — The Lord is giving me time to repent. What I said to the Rabbi was inexcusable. My fellow thief was right to ask, “Do you not fear God?”

“This man has done nothing wrong,” he told me. And, he was right. Even the centurion, just now, had to admit, “Certainly, this man was innocent!”

He sure wouldn’t say that about me. I’m guilty as sin. OH God! It’s too late to tell this Rabbi, the Messiah, that I’m sorry. What can I do to make things right? Time is running out. I can’t make it! OH God, what can I do?

Oh, what was it He said to that woman taken in adultry? “Where are your accusers?”

I am my own worst accuser. But, it’s too late for me to make amends. My life ends, bound to this cross…oh, but I remember, now, the rest of His words, “Neither do I condemn thee. Go and sin no more.”

Oh, Lord, all merciful. Thank you for your Word. I can die in peace, after all! My Lord, my Messiah, into your hands I, too, commit my spirit.”

Comments
  • Lanny A. Eichert March 30, 2013 at 2:14 am

    Sorry, Edy, it didn’t end that way for the second thief. He’s burning in hell fire right now without remedy and will be forever.

    You spin a nice fantasy.

    • Cindy April 1, 2013 at 6:10 am

      Lanny- I’m so curious. How do you know that to be a fact? We only stand before One Judge after death- and only He can discern the intent of our heart.
      But I wonder even more- WHY you say that? the spirit with which it is full of the antithesis of God’s heart- The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Pe 3:9

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 2, 2013 at 11:59 pm

        Cindy, you quote 2 Peter 3: 9 but you did NOT quote Matthew 7: 13, 14, 21 – 23; nor Matthew 13: 49 & 50. Why, Cindy? Are they just as true as 2 Peter 3: 9? Is Peter more correct than Jesus?

        Don’t you see that the perfect literal Holy Bible tells us one was save on the authority of Jesus Himself. Don’t you think that since the Holy Bible is perfect and both men are written therein, that if the second were saved at the last moment before he died, we’d have been told it was so? Yet the perfect Scripture leaves us to conclude he had no faith even unto death. No hope for that man is given by God’s perfect Scriptures. Follow the story line and don’t add your opinion unless you make God a Liar. The contrast is deafeningly clear. The first thief said to the second: Dost not thou fear God? Obviously not. The first thief at that point was already saved and possessed discernment to know the truth. {1 John 5: 20}

        Edy spins a nice fantasy for all you who refuse to face reality.

        Then there’s Judas Iscariot whom Jesus prophetically announced to His Father in prayer {John 17: 12} as lost and the son of perdition. He died without repentance. Jesus knew he’d die without repentance, and you all want to hold out hope for him as proof of your unbelief in Jesus’ prophecy in prayer.

        The whole volume of the Holy Bible ends {the Revelation} with a populated Lake of Fire where all the inhabitants of hell are cast FOREVER; and you refuse to face the reality that it is forever. What kind of faith do you all have? It certainly isn’t a trust of the Holy Bible.

        {1 John 5: 19b} the whole world lieth in wickedness.
        It is wickedness to refuse to believe every spelt word of the Holy Bible.

  • Mary Vanderplas March 30, 2013 at 5:34 am

    What a beautiful, moving reflection. I like what it says about the grace of God making undeserving sinners worthy, making things right between us and God despite the fact that we, all of us, are “guilty as sin” – freeing us from anxious attempts to make things right ourselves or from falling into despair because we can’t pull it off no matter how hard we try. I like, too, how you portray this other thief coming to know himself as a forgiven sinner, trusting the love of God even for him, and in this knowledge finding release from the self-condemnation that dogged him, and a glorious peace that all was well with his soul.

    Thank you, Edy. I have been richly blessed in my Holy Week journeying by your lovely piece.

    • Edy T Johnson April 25, 2013 at 1:02 am

      Mary, I cherish your words about the grace of God freeing us “from anxious attempts to make things right ourselves or from falling into despair because we can’t pull it off no matter how hard we try.” That’s a wonderful summary of what I hoped to get across, and I have been delighted to share your comment with some of my other readers. Thank you!

  • Stephen Helbig March 31, 2013 at 2:07 pm

    Oh, Lord, all merciful. Thank you for your Word. I can die in peace, after all!
    My Lord, my Messiah, into your hands I, too, commit my spirit.”

    Thanks Edy ~ Thumbs up

    ……….. /–)
    ………/ …/
    ……./ ….(__ ____
    ▓▓…….. ..((_ l___)
    ▓▓…….. ..((_ i___)
    ▓▓…….. ..((_ k___)
    ▓▓—-.___( (_e__ )

    …………✿•*¨`*•. (¯`v´¯) (¯`v´¯) .•*¨`*•✿…………
    ……….. . . ✿•*¨`*•.¸(¯`v´¯)¸.•´*¨`*•✿ . . ………..

    It is hard to properly understand the terror, the horror, the abject dismay of the DEATH of Christ as He suffered when He took upon Himself the form of a man and became obedient unto death. ~ Why? ~ Because no man remembers the excellence and glory and exaltation of that world of life he enjoyed with the Father before the ages began. Paul tried to express the extent of the Christ’s impoverishment and the depth of His humiliation with these word of inspiration: “You know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich” (II Cor 8-9).

    p.s. ~ Who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

  • Edy T Johnson March 31, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    When I looked at the last of Jesus’ words from the cross, it suddenly struck me that I had never heard a message of compassion for that other thief. It came to me that I – by nature sinful and unclean like all the rest of fallen creation – might try and put myself in his place. I certainly have enough experience as a sinner, thankful that is precisely whom Jesus died to save. And so, the words flowed through me, not so much of me, as I grieved with this struggling soul. And, isn’t that exactly what Jesus did – putting Himself in our place? We look at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. I look forward to meeting that other thief at the Lord’s banquet table, some glorious day, because the remedy is sufficient (nothing lacking) for the disease!

    • Lanny A. Eichert April 3, 2013 at 9:22 am

      Edy, unless the remedy is RECEIVED in this life, it does NO good. It cannot be received in the after-life.

      Sin is the disease in this life, but if in this life you don’t drink His blood and eat His flesh you have NO LIFE. The wages of sin is death. You got the disease in this life and you must be rid of it in this life. Jesus said ye shall die IN YOUR SINS if you believe not. The Remedy is only designed for this life. He is never preached in the after-life anywhere in Scripture and there is not a single soul revealed saved in the after-life having previously physically died without confessing Christ.

      Just in case you retreat to 1 Peter 3: 19 how is it we are not told of anybody getting saved by Christ’s supposed effort? I’ll tell you why. They heard the Spirit of Christ in Noah’s preaching for 120 years while he built the ark. Any other view is wrong. Christ did NOT descend to “spirit prison” between His death and His resurrection to preach solely to that select group of people. You make them a privileged company above all other sinners? Besides why did Christ fail to save them if He had indeed preached to them in “spirit prison”? You mean not even Christ can preach well enough to save unbelievers? What you want to believe here is beyond reason and any other Biblical support; AND His resurrection is just as necessary as His death in the matter of salvation, therefore salvation was not even completed when you suppose He preached to them.

      • Edy T Johnson April 4, 2013 at 8:14 pm

        Lanny, let’s begin at Genesis. Please list every consequence you can find that God told them would result from the sin, shortcoming, failure that Adam and Eve experienced that broke humanity’s relationship with God. No mention of any punishment beyond the death sentence. All the consequences are in this life.

        In order to believe in post-mortem punishment, one has to accept pagan belief that the soul is immortal, which certainly is the lie from the serpent, “You will not surely die!” Rather, Scripture tells us “the soul that sins dies.” We all die because we’re all sinners.

        And so, God, Emmanuel, entered history to reclaim His creation, to end the suffering of this vale of tears, and create us all anew. It is a gift, we are incapable of adding anything to it. We are all part of the new creation. Some just don’t know it, yet.

        “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. …So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body…Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption…So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory….” – 1 Corinthians 15

        We have been given a ministry of reconciliation. That is what Jesus brought to fallen humanity and has intrusted to us, the church of the Firstborn. So, wherever we confront alienation, we are confronting the enemy, who blinds eyes to the Truth.

        Jesus said, “And I, if I shall be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] to me.” That’s our job, to lift up Jesus, bring the Light of the world to those suffering in the dark, wandering under the curse, hungry for answers to what this life is all about. Such “condemned already” souls are as precious to God as yours and mine are. And He is not about to abandon a single one of them.

        To believe in postmortum punishment is equivalent to denying the Savior of the World that He did what He said. Jesus is victorious. The gates of “Hell” (Sheol, the grave, etc.) will not prevail.

        • Lanny A. Eichert April 5, 2013 at 12:28 am

          Edy writes: belief that the soul is immortal, which certainly is the lie from the serpent. No mention of any punishment beyond the death sentence. All the consequences are in this life. We all die because we’re all sinners.

          If the picture you paint is hell on earth and nothing after this life, then why are you quoting resurrection texts? Resurrection makes no sense if the soul is not immortal. Secondly if your jesus is victorious why does anybody at all die?

          You have very poor logic.

          • Edy T Johnson April 23, 2013 at 12:06 am

            Lanny, you wrote: “Resurrection makes no sense if the soul is not immortal.”

            Lanny, immortal means without death. But, Scripture clearly states that the soul that sins *dies.* Thus, we are mortal, not immortal. God alone is immortal, without death.

            Resurrection is when we are re-created (no longer bound by the curse of sin and death), by the Firstborn from the dead, the Word made flesh, who has known us since before He created us in our mother’s womb in the first place.

            To believe that the soul does not die (not scriptural), but is transferred into some sort of asbestos body for punishment, is to believe in reincarnation, not resurrection. We are raised incorruptible (1 Corinthians 15)

            • Lanny A. Eichert April 25, 2013 at 2:51 am

              Edy, resurrection is the changing of the human BODY from mortal to immortal. Resurrection affects ONLY the body of human beings.

              But some [man] will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? {1 Corinthians 15: 35}

              With what “body” do they come? The whole discussion that follows in the next verses is all about “bodies.” There is no discussion about souls in the chapter at all.

              It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. {1 Corinthians 15: 44}

              Do you see the word “body” used four times in the text of this verse? There is no wording of recreation, only “change” used both on verses 51 & 52. What follows verse 35 is the change from the seed to the mature plant. The seed is not recreated into a mature plant, but it does undergo a change developing into a mature plant. Don’t you remember in High School Biology Class causing a lima bean to germinate?

              Again I warn you that the chapter only developes the resurrection of the bodies of saints, but has no development of the resurrection of the wicked. When the wicked are resurrected {John 5: 29} Jesus said: they that have done evil, (shall come forth) unto the resurrection of damnation. Therefore they are not raised incorruptible, but they are raised immortal; and we might be able to “assume” in a spiritual body of a sort that is tortured by fire and chewing maggots and constantly thirsty, at the very least. Since it is not a body of flesh, you need not suppose they are reincarnated, but they are raised with a perfect memory of the lusts of their flesh which they are unable to satisfy.

              To claim they that have done evil are raised incorruptible is to say withOUT corruption, making the resurrection a saving event. Verse 52 tells us the resurrection is an instantaneous event that takes less than a split second to complete {in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye} leaving no time for the sinner to accept Gospel truth, repent, and believe; all three of which takes measureable time for human decision making. They that have done evil are evil people both immediately before they are resurrected and immediately after they are resurrected. Their moral character is unchanged by the mere resurrection of their bodies.

              Resurrection does NOT solve the problem of human sin; only faith in the Blood of Jesus does that. Since {2 Thessalonians 3: 2} all men have not faith, most die IN THEIR SINS and perish in hell’s fire.

              I hope by now you understand souls dead because of sins still possess functioning conscious existence both in this life and after physical death and are unaffected by the resurrection of their physical bodies. I began with the Biblical question, How are the dead raised up? The dead are assumed to EXIST if they are to be raised up. They have conscious existence after physical death. The body is decayed in the ground, the physical life spirit is returned to God, so what remains conscious after physical death is the immortal conscious “dead because of sins” soul. This is contrary to your statement that in the grave is nothing, because nothing means no existence, yet the dead continue to exist. There is no purpose for my ten passages from the Old Testament if conscious existence were not true. They prove what is not possible for the conscious dead sinner. There’d be no point in telling what’s not possible if he had not consciousness.

              • Edy T Johnson April 26, 2013 at 8:03 pm

                Your scenario sounds like eisegesis, Lanny, rather than exegesis.

                Adam became a living soul when God breathed His breath/spirit into the clay. So we don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul that has both spirit and body. When God withdraws His breath/Spirit, the body returns to the dust and the soul is no more, dead, mortal soul, not immortal. But, God is perfectly capable to create us anew, so we pass from death to life, no longer subject to the curse of sin and death.

                God has a purpose (“What you meant for evil, God meant for good,” Joseph told his brothers) for everything in His creation. Our purpose, as part of the church of the Firstborn, is to be ministers of reconciliation, to proclaim the good news. The results are in God’s hands.

                “HE who has begun a good work in you will bring it to completion.” Someday, everyone will come to the end of self and recognize Jesus for the Savior He is, and every knee will bow.

                • Lanny A. Eichert April 27, 2013 at 12:16 am

                  Edy, WHAT happened to each of the souls of both Adam and Eve when they sinned?

                  {see below Lanny A. Eichert says April 23, 2013 at 11:13 am}
                  Edy, you are hung up on your idea of soul death not understanding what happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned in the Garden of Eden. Now when they ate of the tree from which they were told not to eat, they sinned, did they not? Did their souls die, Edy, as the Scripture you quote says? Please nod yes in agreement with Scripture. Did they enter the grave? Please nod no. Where they still standing physically alive on the earth in the Garden of Eden? Nod yes. Did physical human life continue on planet Earth with dead human beings reproducing physical life with dead human souls?

          • Edy T Johnson April 29, 2013 at 12:12 pm

            Lanny writes: “If the picture you paint is hell on earth and nothing after this life, then why are you quoting resurrection texts? Resurrection makes no sense if the soul is not immortal. Secondly if your jesus is victorious why does anybody at all die?”

            Correction, Lanny:
            Here’s my understanding from Romans 8:18-23
            For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
            For the creation waits with eager longing for *the revealing* of the sons of God.
            For the creation was subjected to futility, **not willingly,** but because of him who subjected it, in hope
            that the **creation itself will be set free** from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
            [sure sounds like ALL to me will obtain the same freedom]
            For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
            And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
            [raised incorruptible in our new spiritual body – 1 Cor. 15]

            And in 2 Corinthians 5:
            “For we know that if the tent that is our earthly home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
            For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling,
            if indeed by putting it on we may not be found naked.
            For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened–not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that **what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”**

            I maintain, based on the wealth of Scripture and the witness of God’s Holy Spirit, that this life’s journey in the wilderness is THE consequence of the curse of sin and death. The death sentence carried out (Calvary) actually sets us free from that curse, which all will finally realize when we pass from death (the grave) to new resurrection life (NOT to further postmortum unrelenting suffering).

            • Lanny A. Eichert April 29, 2013 at 4:21 pm

              Edy, your **creation itself will be set free** [sure sounds like ALL to me will obtain the same freedom] is the wrong conclusion due to the distinction made by the text’s “And not only the creation, but we ourselves.” But we ourselves reduces the creation to everything other than men and angels. Unfortunately you all incorrectly according to this text expand “creation” to include all humanity. All you folks are not CAREFUL in what you read or how you read it. God is very precise in what He caused to be written so that it might have the authority of His Authorship without the errors of men.

              Romans 8:18-23
              For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

              Also, Edy, if you’d be careful about 2 Corinthians 5, you’d also know it is LIMITED to only saints being swallowed up by life. All unbelievers are swallowed up by the Second Death in the eternal Lake of Fire in
              postmortum unrelenting suffering. “For in this tent we groan, longing to put on our heavenly dwelling”, do you really believe unbelievers have this longing while they don’t even believe in heaven or hell? This a longing ONLY those who believe in eternal torment can truly have.

              • Edy T Johnson April 29, 2013 at 9:50 pm

                Lanny writes: “All unbelievers are swallowed up by the Second Death in the eternal Lake of Fire in postmortum unrelenting suffering.”

                You don’t read this in Scripture. You piece together elements to support your dogma (eisegesis) while ignoring the overwhelming evidence that the salvation of the whole world belongs to the Almighty, Eternal, Omnipotent Good Shepherd, who loves us and gave Himself for us. Jesus plus nothing equals everything. That is the good news.

                You want to add to what Jesus finished at Calvary. It doesn’t work.

        • Lanny A. Eichert April 8, 2013 at 12:24 pm

          How, Edy, is believing in postmortum punishment equivalent to denying the Savior of the World Who warned you of being cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. {Mark 9: 45 & 46}?

          Aren’t you just babbling what you’ve heard from others, but haven’t really examined thoroughly? Why are you so set on crucifying the establishment with this crowd? Have you imagined a hurt also?

  • Cindy April 1, 2013 at 6:18 am

    Edy,
    To see Jesus die would be life changing! I had never thought about the other thief that way- you’ve got me contemplating ALL the people who were there at the cross- the Pharisees, the soldiers, How could they not be changed watching Jesus die? Did He not say- “If I be lifted up- I will draw all men to me?” The Centurion proclaimed, “Truly this was the Son of God” When the curtain was rent in two pieces from the top to the bottom- I have to believe there were some “religious” people who were re-thinking their position on who Jesus was! Wonderful story!

  • admin April 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    Although this blog is based on speculation/imagination, it paints a vivid picture of the tension at work in one who God is drawing to Himself. It’s especially effective because of the immediate setting, which is described by the criminal with emphasis on relationship – the way he perceives himself, the other criminal, the crowds, Christ, and memories of Christ in relationship to others.

  • admin April 12, 2013 at 11:51 pm

    Oh, and sorry it took so long to comment. I’m playing catch up!

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 1:34 am

    Yes, Alice & Edy: speculation/imagination. Both of your *** imaginations speculating, because it is all about trying to deny eternal torment and trying to support God saves everybody.

    Contrarywise Jesus said:
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}

    Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons {and daughters} of men is fully set in them to do evil. {Ecclesiastes 8: 11}

    To do the evil of their wicked imaginations.

    If punishment, that is, the sentence, were remedial, the only way it works remedially is if it were exercised quickly against the offender. God has not yet brought sinners to the Final Judgment, but has seemingly delayed? Why? What does the delay do to the hearts of humanity? See the text says “is fully set … to do evil.”

    God’s delay of Final Judgment proves He will NOT save everybody.

    FYI How long has been the delay for the “spirits in prison” in 1 Peter 3: 19? From Noah’s day until now? Oh, Edy, if they were really existing in prison from Noah’s day until Christ’s quickening, what does that say about the immortality of the soul you call a pagan belief?

    • admin April 13, 2013 at 1:39 am

      It would be just as much speculation to say that the criminal did not repent in his own mind before he died. Nobody knows but God.

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 1:47 am

        Alice, there you go again with just because it doesn’t say so doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

        If it is NOT said then it is NOT meant.

        • admin April 13, 2013 at 2:19 am

          We have NO information one way or the other. That is what I am saying.

          • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 2:14 pm

            Wrong, Alice. Every indication in the text is that the second thief was unrepentant unto death. What difference is that to you any way since you falsely think God saves people even in the after-life after they physically died. You are wrongly stating “no information” for the perverted purpose of enhancing your position of salvation after physical death even if that unrepentant thief gets almost to repentance at his death and then after he dies he finally repents. That’s your bad point and bad direction you are taking. You have “no information” you say upon which to make that foolish imagination. That’s why I called it above the *** imaginations of both Edy and you which you censored as a personal judgment instead of my evaluation of strictly your imaginations.

            The weightier matter is that of
            Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons {and daughters} of men is fully set in them to do evil. {Ecclesiastes 8: 11}

            That text shows God “spares the rod and spoils the child.” Notice the text specifies “the sons of men” not “the children of God”, so that God distances Himself from them. Here again are the “us” and “them” meaning the “us” are Fundamentalist Christians like me and the “them” are liberals who wish to call themselves “Christians” like you and your friends. Just as God distances Himself from the “them” in Ecclesiastes 8: 11, He does the same {in Romans 1: 26} For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections. That for your information dear Alice is sparing the rod and spoiling the child. That is nowhere near the direction a loving Father God chastens His dear children for their profit. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. {Hebrews 12: 6} BTW what is this “receiveth” thing in the text? Isn’t it the “us” and “them” thing again?

            Alice, this one verse, Ecclesiastes 8: 11, by itself disproves your universalism and all your friends. *** all of you, for evangelically rebelling against God. It is one thing to privately rebel and another to evangelize that rebellion.

            PS Just in case you missed my point, proper child raising requires immediate and consistent corrective punishment for misbehavours.

    • Lanny A. Eichert April 13, 2013 at 1:57 am

      But what is said is
      Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons {and daughters} of men is fully set in them to do evil. {Ecclesiastes 8: 11}

      • Edy T Johnson April 17, 2013 at 2:16 am

        Lanny, Jesus specifically died for sinners. I count myself among the sinners, thankful Jesus died for me. He came to seek and to save those who are lost. Do the righteous have no need of a Savior? Only if they are blind to their own faults. Pity them! For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

        As for your contention about post mortem salvation, Jesus declared that everything that was required was finished at the cross. We are *raised* incorruptible (see my April 4 post for references); because we are a new creation. Sin has already been dealt with for us, because we are utterly helpless to save ourselves. That is the good news intrusted to us to bring to all people.

        His mercies are new every morning…His mercy endures forever. Halleluia!

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 18, 2013 at 3:07 am

        Edy, look at your words: We are *raised* incorruptible … because we are a new creation. Your reason for “raised” is the new creation. The new creation happens at the moment of CONVERSION. There is no raising incorruptible without first in this life being born again converted. ONLY those new creations are raised incorruptible is what I’m trying to tell all you folks. Those who die as old creations remain corruptible. Yes, their bodies become immortal, but they remain corrupted. How else do they burn and are eaten by worms, maggots? {Mark 9: 43 – 48 thrice repeated for emphasis so you’d know the certainty of it}. Incorruptible bodies cannot be maggot infested {partially rotten flesh} nor burn {partially consumed}.

        Edy, I wish you were born again and able to see the gross errors of this blog site. You need to stop being deceived by these people and those others feeding you their poison. God’s Book, the Holy Bible, is perfect and literally true and completely trustworthy and you can stake your eternity upon every spelt word in it. You can trust God to be right in making Hell and the Lake of Fire an eternal never ending penalty to the wicked. Have you read how Alice wrongly accuses eternal punishment for her insecurities, when she should be blaming her own total depravity, her sinful nature, sin in her? That is absolutely horrible logic to substitute the just cause with a pet dislike. That’s the height of dishonesty. How can you trust dishonest people like that who fill her blog site?

        None of them are honest who claim eternal torment as a wicked church doctrine, because not only it is held by the churches, but because Jesus taught it as the truth; and He is God, so He knows for sure who burns forever. Read His words in Matthew 7: 13, 14, 21 – 23; 13: 49 & 50. Also John 17: 12 where Jesus prophetically calls Judas Iscariot lost, perished, the same word used in John 3: 16 !!!

        Don’t be deceived, Edy, the whole Bible ends with the Lake of Fire populated without any remedy in the last three chapters of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Get saved ASAP before you physically die, Edy, or you’ll be there forever.

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 18, 2013 at 5:11 am

        Edy, of what you continue to loose site is the necessity to RECEIVE God’s free gift of salvation. Just because it was finished at the cross does NOT mean everybody is saved even if they don’t know it yet. I told you that above on April 3 and you responded with very poorly on the April 4. God freely OFFERS His gift, He does NOT FORCE anybody to receive it. If you don’t receive it you burn in Hell. Refusing God’s gift is like spitting in God’s face and He’ll only take that for the duration of your mortal life. Then He’s had enough of your rebellion and sentences you to burn in Hell forever, and Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire where Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet are along with Satan’s angels {Matthew 25: 41}, demons, and unclean spirits.

        Edy, “us” is ONLY believers, not “all people” you claim. Believe and be saved. You know right well most people refuse Jesus Christ and physically die without professing Him. Jesus said they died IN THEIR SINS {John 8: 21 & 24}. He said they therefore perished as in John 3: 16 what His death was to prevent if they’d only believe in Him, but they didn’t, so they perished according to John 3: 16. Surely you can quote that verse word perfect by heart, I hope. Look again at John 8: 21 and see those who die in their sins CANNOT come to Jesus. Jesus said so exactly. Read the text, each and every word He spoke. The only alternative is Hell followed by the Lake of Fire. Physical death terminates God’s salvation offer to humanity. Physical death is the cut-off. What you are when you physically die is what you will be forever: sinner or saint. Immutable states at that point.

  • Edy T Johnson April 21, 2013 at 10:50 pm

    Lanny, you imply that I am listening to voices other than God’s Word. Not at all. It is God’s Word that drove me to dig deeper to understand the schizophrenia of too much preaching I’d listened to. We simply cannot have Christ Victorious, yet He loses so many of the sheep He died to save. What, pray tell, was the point of everything He endured to redeem us, if the devil wins in the end? Why does the Bible tell us that the gates of hell will not prevail, but you claim “hell” prevails forever?

    I could write a book beginning with the first verse of Scripture that jumped off the page at me that cut right through the reasonings of men vs. the Word of God. So, as I recommended in my April 4 post, show me anywhere in the Hebrew Old Testament where postmortum punishment is even given a hint. Something that important should have been shouted from the housetops by every watchman for generations. But, you will not find it.

    Instead, your conclusions about postmortum torment seem to be based on a dozen misunderstood verses in the New Testament (plus the teachings of men based more on Greek and Roman pagan mythology and fiction like Dante’s Inferno) but overlook the weight of evidence in a hundred plus other passages of Scripture.

    Another misunderstanding: The Good Shepherd does not *offer* to rescue the lost sheep, He *provides* Himself to seek the one lost sheep *until* He finds her. He is not about to abandon any of His flock to the wolf.

    Lanny, I appreciate your concern for the lost. I am afraid that your concern is to save them from something beyond death, rather than to bring them the Good News for the here and now. We bring the Light of Jesus to our fellow travelers wandering the trail of this life in the dark and tell them they don’t have to wander blind and alone. This is why Emmanuel, God with us, entered this dimension of time and space. Hebrews 2: “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might *destroy* him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.” That pretty much covers all of us!

    • Lanny A. Eichert April 22, 2013 at 12:50 am

      Edy, Jesus required people believe Him for their salvation and told them if they didn’t believe they’d die IN THEIR SINS. There’s no Jesus salvation without faith, dear girl, personal faith in Christ which is only available in this mortal life.

      I’ve often posted ten Old Testament texts proving no hope for the physically dead and here they are again:
      For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}
      let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave. {Psalm 31: 17}
      they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them {Psalm 49: 14}
      among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand. {Psalm 88: 5}
      Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? {Psalm 88: 10 – 12}
      The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. {Psalm 115: 17}
      for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. {Ecclesiastes 9: 10}
      For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. {Isaiah 38: 18}

      Edy, you are listening to evil wicked “voices” when you call the many and the few of Matthew 7: 13 & 14 the reasonings of men. Jesus clearly taught, “Not every one … shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” {Matthew 7: 21}. Look around you and see how FEW people in the WORLD have professed Christ through the centuries. If so few are professing how is it you don’t see YOUR god as a failure for having so very few elect believers in their mortal lives? In YOUR scheme of things which is more blessed: to be saved in this life and avoid hell altogether, or to go to hell before being saved? If YOUR god saves so few in this life, why is he so short on blessing people and is he really then a nice god?

      Edy, these are the words of Jesus {Matthew 25: 41} “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

  • Edy T Johnson April 22, 2013 at 11:04 pm

    So, Lanny, you’re convinced that Adam’s failure/guilt is more powerful than Jesus’ work on the cross? Adam (and the devil) win? Jesus is the loser?

    No good news in that way of thinking.

    As for the scriptures you quote, you only confirm that the “soul that sins, dies.” There is no anything in the grave, because we are all dead. (By the way, “hell” in it’s original meaning is related to “hel-met,” a covering; hence, it refers only to the grave.)

    For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave *who* shall give thee thanks? {Psalm 6: 5}

    But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; **for he is kind to the ungrateful and the selfish.** Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful. “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” Luke 6:35-38

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 23, 2013 at 11:13 am

    Edy, you are hung up on your idea of soul death not understanding what happened to Adam and Eve when they sinned in the Garden of Eden. Now when they ate of the tree from which they were told not to eat, they sinned, did they not? Did their souls die, Edy, as the Scripture you quote says? Please nod yes in agreement with Scripture. Did they enter the grave? Please nod no. Where they still standing physically alive on the earth in the Garden of Eden? Nod yes. Did physical human life continue on planet Earth with dead human beings reproducing physical life with dead human souls?

    Did God attempt to solve this dead problem by providing the Substitute for soul death? Yes by becoming a man and dying in our place. By what means does Christ’s death benefit the individual sinner? Only by faith, dear Edy, only by human faith. Yet the Scriptures say {2 Thessalonians 3: 2} for all men have not faith. That is God’s statement of FACT, young lady. Jesus required faith of human beings in order for them to be forgiven {John 8: 21 & 24} if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins. Have you read: But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. {Hebrews 11: 6} ???

    God did NOT fail to accomplish all He intended by the cross since He never intended to save everybody, just a few, as Jesus said in Matthew 7: 13 & 14. God has accomplished the saving of those He chose to His salvation. The cross is sufficient to save everybody, but the FACT is “all have not faith.”

    • Edy T Johnson April 25, 2013 at 1:31 am

      Hbrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 25, 2013 at 1:51 pm

        Edy, the verse you quote is written to BELIEVERS and “the joy” are God’s Elect believers, saints. Jesus is victorious for and unto saints, not unbelieving sinners.

        Again the error of you all on this site is your unwarranted application of Scripture across the board to unbelivers.

        • Edy T Johnson April 26, 2013 at 8:20 pm

          Lanny, you miss the point. Jesus had His inner circle disciples, that He was preparing to be eyewitnesses to the world. He also had followers, an outer circle of the curious, those in need, those who begged to be part of His close followers, but that He denied because He had other plans for them, instead.

          The body of Christ, the church, continues to bring Christ to the nations. We are not a chosen people that have accomplished anything on our own in order to lord it over the poor slobs wandering in the dark.

          Those poor slobs are precisely the ones Jesus sends us to reach, to bring the Light of the world so they can experience the joy of the Lord, too. Condemnation of them is not part of our job description. Apart from God, every single one of us is “condemned already.” We are numbered among the firstborn simply to proclaim the good news of God’s pardon.

          • Lanny A. Eichert April 27, 2013 at 12:42 am

            Edy, you agree that the “soul that sins, dies” don’t you? { above Edy T Johnson says April 22, 2013 at 11:04 pm}

            And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

            Did Adam and Eve die as God said would happen the very day they disobeyed God’s commandment? Did the soul that sins, die? Is Adam’s disobedience a sin? Did he as a soul die that day? Is Eve’s disobedience a sin? Did she as a soul die that day?

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 23, 2013 at 3:50 pm

    Readers & Edy, you ask, who won? WHO won this world, Edy? Who does the Holy Bible signify as the winner of this world? Who is the god of this world according to the Holy Bible? Haven’t you read:

    But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. {2 Corinthians 4: 3 & 4}

    Let us settle this issue once and for all. God lost and Satan won this world.

    {Now, why don’t you do some deep thinking “before” you ask me the questions you should be answering for yourselves.}

    • Edy T Johnson April 25, 2013 at 2:08 am

      Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, >until>destroy the works of the devil.<allallallAllall.<

      Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

      Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

      • Edy T Johnson April 25, 2013 at 2:22 am

        Oops! Somehow I managed to mess up my post!

        Romans 11:25-26 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved….

        Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

        1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

        1Ch 29:11 Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all.

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 25, 2013 at 2:16 pm

    Readers & Edy, he might have mercy {Romans 11: 32} is an Aorist Active Subjunctive Greek verb meaning maybe He will and maybe He won’t have mercy, but only the possibility is meant. So He has mercy on whomever He chooses and He withholds mercy to whomever He chooses {Romans 9: 18} Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

    It is improper to quote Romans 11: 32 {insisting God is ALWAYS merciful to EVERYBODY} without also noting the nature of the verb’s mood and quoting 9: 18 which proves God is not merciful to everybody all the time.

    The improper use of Romans 11: 32 is typical on this site, yet it actually disproves Alice’s theme that God saves everybody.

    • Edy T Johnson April 26, 2013 at 1:06 am

      Jhn 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.” …

      Jhn 8:10-11 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her, “Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”

      Jhn 8:15 “You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one….”

      Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.”

      Rom 3:3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God?

  • Lanny A. Eichert April 26, 2013 at 6:30 pm

    Edy, this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days {Hebrews 8: 10} places verse 12 in the context of the beginning of the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ as King of the Jews. National ethnic Israel’s Messianic prophesies are in view to be fulfilled, especially the national conversion of the Jews to Christ, their Messiah and Sin Bearer. Look at verse 9 which speaks of the Exodus from Egypt under Moses, so that historically referenced national Israel is clearly the object of the “new” {verse 8} covenant of “those days” mentioned in the text.

    what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? {Romans 3: 5 & 6} The faithfulness of God to His Law requires eternal torment upon all rebels as the followup to verse 3 and you all on this site are included in its begining question: For what if some were without faith {in eternal torment}? Your lack of faith in eternal torment does NOT change God’s faithfulness to judge and eternally pinish those who break His Law.

    • Edy T Johnson April 27, 2013 at 1:06 am

      So, Lanny, having “faith” in eternal torment is what you think saves us? What diabolical “gospel” is this? Is there anyone you know who has not broken God’s law? (Matthew 5:20ff “”For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven….”)

      Seriously, I have to ask: what is the purpose of the law to you?

      And, what was significant about the veil in the temple being rent in two when Jesus took the sin of the whole world and nailed it to the cross?

      You have continually “laid down the law,” here, as if we are expected to observe it without fail. Yet God knows our frame, He remembers we are only dust. So, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Thanks be to God!

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 27, 2013 at 4:50 pm

        Edy, Your lack of faith in eternal torment does NOT change God’s faithfulness to judge and eternally punish those who break His Law. You don’t just have a lack of faith in eternal torment, you oppose the doctrine and therefore call God a Liar. The god you believe is NOT the Biblical God and therefore you faith is invalid for saving you.

        And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

        So WHAT happened to Adam and Eve with respect to them being souls, dear Edy, once they ate of the forbidden tree? The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

        Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. {Ezekiel 18: 4}

        Edy, you wrote April 26, 2013 at 8:03 pm Adam became a living soul when God breathed His breath/spirit into the clay. So we don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul that has both spirit and body. When God withdraws His breath/Spirit, the body returns to the dust and the soul is no more, dead, mortal soul, not immortal.

        You expound physical death, but not sinning while living this mortal life on earth. Now God’s command sounds like same day immediate death as when the sin was committed. Did Adam and Eve as living souls die that day? After that day how did Eve conceive and give birth to Cain and Abel?

        Do people who commit sins continue to have physical life? Are such people living souls? Are their

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 27, 2013 at 4:52 pm

        Edy, Your lack of faith in eternal torment does NOT change God’s faithfulness to judge and eternally punish those who break His Law. You don’t just have a lack of faith in eternal torment, you oppose the doctrine and therefore call God a Liar. The god you believe is NOT the Biblical God and therefore you faith is invalid for saving you.

        And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

        So WHAT happened to Adam and Eve with respect to them being souls, dear Edy, once they ate of the forbidden tree? The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

        Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. {Ezekiel 18: 4}

        Edy, you wrote April 26, 2013 at 8:03 pm Adam became a living soul when God breathed His breath/spirit into the clay. So we don’t have a soul, we ARE a soul that has both spirit and body. When God withdraws His breath/Spirit, the body returns to the dust and the soul is no more, dead, mortal soul, not immortal.

        You expound physical death, but not sinning while living this mortal life on earth. Now God’s command sounds like same day immediate death as when the sin was committed. Did Adam and Eve as living souls die that day? After that day how did Eve conceive and give birth to Cain and Abel?

        Do people who commit sins continue to have physical life? Are such people living souls? Are they ALSO dead souls?

        • Edy T Johnson April 29, 2013 at 1:31 am

          Lanny: “You don’t just have a lack of faith in eternal torment, you oppose the doctrine and therefore call God a Liar. The god you believe is NOT the Biblical God and therefore you faith is invalid for saving you.”

          My reply: I oppose doctrines of demons and men’s interpretations that are either held in ignorance or are twisting scripture to fit a particular dogma.

          “Let God be true and every man a liar.” Romans 3:4

          As for faith, that is not something we can cook up, rather it is a gift of God to us: Rom 12:3 – “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”

          • Lanny A. Eichert April 29, 2013 at 12:57 pm

            So, Edy, so WHAT happened to Adam and Eve with respect to them being souls, dear Edy, once they ate of the forbidden tree? The soul that sinneth, it shall die: isn’t that right?

            1 Thessalonians 5: 23, what about it?

            • Edy T Johnson May 1, 2013 at 3:39 pm

              Yes, that is what the Bible and experience tells us is so.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 1, 2013 at 11:32 pm

                Edy, do you mean Adam and Eve’s soul died as soon as they eat from the forbidden tree? Did their bodies die also? or we’re they soul-less bodies and spirits?

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 2, 2013 at 12:20 am

                Edy, Are we living souls today? We are sinners, as you wrote “sinners, such as you and I, Lanny.” Doesn’t that mean we have sinned many times? Does that mean the first sin we did caused our deaths? I asked in my first sentence if we are living souls because I think you and I are still physically alive enough to write our says on this site and a significant time has passed since you and I did our first sin. I thought you said since we first sinned we, having been living souls, died and are no longer living souls. I think I am a living person; what about you: do you think you are a living person? Are we no longer living souls? So do you mean since in Adam all died, that we were never born living souls since we are Adam’s children? Adam and Eve had children, Cain and Abel, who were not living souls? If Adam and Eve died as living souls the moment they ate how could they reproduce any living souls? Wouldn’t they have to reproduce only baby bodies into which God breathed into their nostrils the breath of life and they became a living souls? So is that how people who are no longer living souls are able to have children who are living souls until they do their first sin? But since everybody is in Adam at conception and in Adam all die, how can they ever be living souls? Don’t you see your idea makes NO sense?

                The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {Psalm 58: 3}

                Doesn’t Psalm 58: 3 tell us that everybody is a sinner from the womb, in other words, from the moment we are conceived in our mothers’ womb? How then can we ever have been a living soul since the soul that sins dies before even getting out of its mother’s womb?

                Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. {Psalm 51: 5}

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 2, 2013 at 12:53 am

                Edy, so if according to you when God takes away the breathe of life the living body dies and the living soul is no more, what does the soul that sins dies mean? It, the living soul, is no more? Adam ceased to exist as Adam? Eve ceased to exist as Eve? Both continued to exist according to the Bible and experience even by their names of Adam and Eve, isn’t that correct? How then can the soul that sins cease to exist? Does our psyche cease to exist upon our first sin?

                Please explain these things: what you mean.

      • Lanny A. Eichert April 28, 2013 at 1:27 am

        Edy, have you considered the use of “soul” in {1 Thessalonians 5: 23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

        Why wouldn’t this text define a person as a three part human being, having a spirit, and having a soul, and having a body; given the highest order of being first and the lowest order of being last: the spirit part to relate to God, the soul part to relate to other persons, and the body part to relate to the physical earth environment? Yet in the Scriptures I have noticed a merging of three words; namely spirit, soul, and heart; to mean the same thing requiring the contextual useage to dictate the meaning beyond the strickness of the word.

  • Edy T Johnson April 29, 2013 at 12:08 am

    Mat 9:10-13
    And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”

    But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. Go and learn what this means, ‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”

    God’s Word is given for sinners, such as you and I, Lanny.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 1, 2013 at 12:21 am

      Edy, I’ve been trying to get an answer from you about:

      And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

      WHAT happened to Adam and Eve with respect to them being souls, dear Edy, once they ate of the forbidden tree? The soul that sinneth, it shall die: isn’t that right? in the day that thou eatest? but didn’t they continue earth life? I am waiting for your explanation. Also 1 Thessalonians 5: 23 as I wrote.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 1, 2013 at 1:05 am

      Edy wrote God’s Word is given for sinners, such as you and I, Lanny. Edy knows Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. {Ezekiel 18: 4} because she wrote the “soul that sins, dies.” Tell me about sinners, such as you and I. Do you and I die as souls each time we sin? How can we as souls die and then still sin again? I would suppose sinners sin now and then again; am I not right that sinners are repeat offenders?

      • Edy T Johnson May 3, 2013 at 11:47 am

        Lanny writes:
        “…Does that mean the first sin we did caused our deaths?
        …The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. {Psalm 58: 3}
        …Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. {Psalm 51: 5}
        …so if according to you when God takes away the breathe of life the living body dies and the living soul is no more, what does the soul that sins dies mean? It, the living soul, is no more?….”

        Lanny, perhaps this will help clear things up for you as it once did for me. Back when I was a young student, listening to the radio drama “Unshackled,” I heard the announcer say something that became an epiphany moment for me. He said, “A man isn’t a sinner because he gets drunk; he gets drunk because he is a sinner.”

        Up to that point, I thought if I repented sufficiently enough, I could put myself in a right relationship with God. My focus was myself and what I had to do to be “saved.” That single announcer’s statement made me recognize that it isn’t what we DO that makes us “condemned already” sinners, it is what we ARE. Using a medical analogy, sin isn’t a virus that we catch (and can recover from), sin is a genetic malformation that won’t go away, since it is part of our DNA. Sin isn’t an accident we fall into or a temptation that we choose. It is way beyond anything we have any control to seek or to avoid, try as we might.

        Since we know that even babies die, before they’ve had a chance to break God’s law, it isn’t the sins we commit that puts us under the curse of sin and death. We are children of Adam, and we inherited the condemnation he brought on all of creation. We are corruptible, so we are prone, “programmed” if you will, to sin. So, it is not our individual sins that cause our death (these are just symptoms of the disease we inherited). We die because we are conceived-in-sin and born sinners, born of Adam in the wilderness, on death row, waiting to be released, as promised, by death. I’m convinced that, except for Jesus, death would have been the end of everything. The grave would claim us all. The End.

        But, thanks be to God, as in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive!
        Flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life.
        Corruption must put on incorruption. (which is why eternal life is a gift we cannot do a thing to “put on.”)
        We are raised incorruptible, a new creation no longer under the curse of sin and death.
        Jesus said, “Behold, I make all things new.” Halleluia!

        • Lanny A. Eichert May 4, 2013 at 1:16 pm

          Edy, your “babies die, before” statement also proves you don’t believe Psalm 58: 3 which says they are wicked in the womb kicking to have their own way to the discomfort of their mothers. If at conception they were living souls they died as living souls with their first kick. So WHAT were they the moment they were born? Come on now, I expect you to know the baby inside the womb is able to sense love or hostility of its parents and therefore has understanding long before being born. The Bible even proves they know more than that.

          And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
          For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
          {Luke 1: 41 & 44}

          So Edy, does a baby have a soul and a body and a spirit? Does a baby have no soul, but has a body and a spirit? Does a baby have a soul, a body, but a dead spirit or no spirit?

          What happens in this life the moment a person is born again converted to Christ? What part is regenerated? soul, body, or spirit?

          Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; {Titus 3: 5}

          What parts are cleansed due to the part regenerated?

          • Edy T Johnson May 4, 2013 at 10:16 pm

            Beloved, we are God’s children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. – 1 John 3:2

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 5, 2013 at 4:28 am

              Edy, 1 John 3: 2 does NOT say everybody is God’s children. The statement is addressed {1 John 1: 3} to believers. No unbelievers are mentioned as being God’s children.

              You, after decades of Bible study, seem to not know anything about the regeneration of the mortal convert.

              Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {John 3: 3} Cannot means not able. Jesus meant mortal man.

              • Edy T Johnson May 6, 2013 at 2:58 am

                Jhn 1:3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.
                Jhn 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

                Therefore, all of humanity as God’s creation belongs to Him alone, thus we are all God’s children, no matter what you think, Lanny. Nobody else can lay claim to what belongs to God.

                The devil is a *defeated* foe. He has no power, and you are in error to declare him the victor when he has been vanquished by the genuine Savior of the world who alone is victorious. Thanks be to God.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2013 at 1:57 pm

                Edy, I told you that you know nothing about the new birth which is required to become God’s children. Jesus said Ye are of your father the devil in John 8: 44 and Ye must be born again in John 3: 7 so that God could pen as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name in John 1: 12. Power or authority to claim the relationship of children of God belongs ONLY to those who have BEEN born again saved by grace through faith; nobody else.

                • Edy T Johnson May 7, 2013 at 1:07 am

                  Lanny, how is it you are qualified to presume what I know or don’t know? I have no idea what denominational dogma or interpretation of Scripture it is that frames what you believe. But, I do know that “works righteousness” adds nothing to what Jesus accomplished at Calvary, whether we see it fulfilled, yet, or not.

                  Here is Jesus’ definition of being born again (since the Bible doesn’t have the term “new birth” to be found): `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;’ (John 3 YLT)

                  “…That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
                  Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born anew.’
                  The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know whence it comes or whither it goes; so it is with every one who is born of the Spirit.” (John 3)

                  Lanny, as I read what you write, it appears that you are insisting on deeds of the flesh to bring about the new birth; I recognize the working of the Holy Spirit bringing us to be born of the Spirit.

                  As for authority: Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

                  And He gave us our assignment: Mat 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 7, 2013 at 4:33 am

                    Edy, by grace through faith is works righteousness? Just because Jesus died doesn’t save everybody, since God requires faith inside mortal men before the redemption is applied to the believer’s account and then regeneration {Titus 3: 5} takes place in this life. Why don’t you know this? Without faith it is impossible to please God {Hebrews 11: 6}. He saves only those few He pleases and damns all the rest. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} Those few He pleases find the strait gate and enter by new birth becoming God’s children, born ones. Notice the word become in the text of John 1: 12. It means they were not God’s children before they believed and they had to “become” children by the faith {believing and receiving} that causes regeneration.

                    Since there is no mortal faith after physical death and greater than 90% died in their sins as nonchristians, there’s no salvation for them.

                    You say our assignment is Matthew 28: 19 so please notice it is assigned to mortals to accomplish among mortals; therefore there is no salvation after mortality and >90% perish unsaved.

                    • Edy T Johnson May 7, 2013 at 10:40 pm

                      Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

                      Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

                      Rom 12:3 ¶ For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

                      Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

                      1 Cr. 13:13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

                      Jer 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, [saying], Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

                      Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee [is] mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing

                      Mat 5:43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

                      Luk 7:42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

                      Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little. 48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

                      Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

                      Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

                      Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

                    • Edy T Johnson May 7, 2013 at 11:11 pm

                      (Lanny): ” Just because Jesus died doesn’t save everybody, since God requires faith inside mortal men before the redemption is applied to the believer’s account and then regeneration …”

                      Question: where does the faith that “God requires” come from in the first place?

                      (LAE): “He saves only those few He pleases and damns all the rest.”

                      Question: In your book, how does anyone know if he is numbered among those God pleases, or numbered among those He damns?

                      LAE: ” It means they were not God’s children before they believed and they had to “become” children by the faith {believing and receiving} that causes regeneration.”

                      Question: Didn’t you indicate it was God who pleased to save some and damn the rest? Now you write we have to become children by faith, which causes regeneration, so it is up to us, after all? Which is it?

                      LAE: “there is no salvation after mortality and >90% perish unsaved.”

                      Question: Does this mean that Jesus failed to die for the sins of the whole world? that He did come to condemn the world instead of save it? (See John 3:16-17) that we are not raised incorruptible?

                      Lanny, I’m afraid your god is too small.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 9, 2013 at 6:53 am

                      Edy, I’m afraid your god is too much of a failure. You say he is omnipotent, but he could not get his desired obedience from his first man nor from his first woman with all his attention focused on just TWO. Throughout the ages of human mortality he could not even save 10% this side of the grave. What ever made your god think he could save everybody after he failed with the first two to keep them righteous? Six thousand years and counting, Edy !!! And still very few find the strait gate, yet you trust in a failure. Wake up to reality: that’s obviously NOT the plan. World population proves you wrong to think that your god could or is saving everybody.

                      While I was in the military I tried to do a Bible study with a fellow, but he would not read what I told him. Instead he read Proverbs and drew a wonderful conclusion. He said the Bible declares there is only two kinds of people on earth and they are the righteous and the wicked. However when he met a girl and started dating her the Bible study ceased. Don’t you see that women are the enemies of the Gospel? I bet you’re a woman, aren’t you? I think Alice is also. The men on this site agreeing with her aught also to be women.

                      For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? {1 Peter 4: 17 & 18}

                      There will ALWAYS be those not obeying the Gospel right to the end of all things. There will always be the ungodly and the sinner. I’ll tell you where they’ll appear: in the eternal Lake of Fire in eternal torment. I have the Absolute Truth of God’s perfect literal Holy Bible as sure evidence to that fact.

                      Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: {Ephesians 3: 8 – 11}

                      Dear Edy, that distinguishable body called the church, distinguished from the world of unsaved humanity, is very small in comparison, but its small numbers displays the wisdom of God to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies. The world of unsaved humanity is the backdrop against which Wisdom is displayed, so they are necessary trash for final burning: all in the Plan, which then obviously does not include saving everybody.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 6, 2013 at 11:17 pm

                Edy, concerning Satan, he is STILL right now today the god of this world (who) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not {2 Corinthians 4: 4} and Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. {Revelation 12: 12} Satan is the saints’ “defeated” foe, but not yet the earth’s defeated foe. That day is a still future reality and has not happened according to our mortal clock.

                Don’t kid yourself, Satan is still blinding the minds of unbelievers; why else are the saints such a very small minority population of the world? Again if your god saves everybody why aren’t they a majority? I’ll tell you why: your god has failed miserably to date because your god is a false god, a dumb idol.

                • Edy T Johnson May 7, 2013 at 1:18 am

                  Why else, indeed! Why did Jesus have only 12 disciples? I believe I have addressed this question more than once, already.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 7, 2013 at 4:02 am

                    Edy, you have not addressed why less than 10% of the world’s population at any given time even claim to be Christian, let alone are. Your god’s track record is a failure and he lets over 90% go through life on earth dead in their tresspasses and sins while the remainder are blessed to live eternal life from the moment they first believed. The >90% have to suffer punishment and judgment that the few don’t. Where’s your god’s compassion for the lost? Your god is not equal or fair in saving everybody. He plays favorites.

                    • Edy T Johnson May 7, 2013 at 11:32 pm

                      You describe the god YOU are proclaiming, Lanny, one without compassion for the lost, one who is not fair in playing favorites, a puny little idol who has no power to reclaim His creation and restore the lost.

                      That is precisely NOT the God I have been declaring to you. The only true God became flesh to dwell among us out of the great love He has for all, whose will is for all men to be saved – and who is omnipotent, so He gets everything He desires. Isn’t that the Good Shepherd of Psalm 23? Isn’t that the Light of the world that draws all men to himself?

                      His arm is not short that He cannot save, contrary to your opinion of Him.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 9, 2013 at 6:48 pm

                      Edy, if His arm is not short that He cannot save, then why isn’t your god saving everybody NOW instead of letting more than 90% live and die a Christless existence without the gift of faith from his grace? Not much grace is seen in that. Your god is cruel to the majority of mortal humanity. I suppose you agree, right?

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 4, 2013 at 7:28 am

    Edy, the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Those words are cause and effect: the cause of death is the act of a sin. Your explanation attempts to reverse the soul that sins dies, by changing apples to oranges. Stop with why a sinner sins and get back to how a soul dies. You deny {the cause} the soul that sins {the effect} dies by writing it isn’t the sins we commit that puts us under the curse of sin and death. The soul that sinneth, it shall die {Ezekiel 18: 4} was written long after Adam and Eve, meaning the cause and effect still occur individually. What happened at Genesis 2: 16 & 17 to the first two living souls, Adam and Eve, when they sinned? Your epiphany moment cannot seem to explain it, right?

    In case you haven’t notice in the past I have recommended the radio drama, “Unshackled,” at http://www.unshackled.org for these readers.

  • Edy T Johnson May 4, 2013 at 9:55 pm

    Lanny, I’ve given you my best understanding after decades of Bible study and life experience. I do not grasp what more you are asking of me. God created us; Adam broke God’s creation; Emmanuel came to restore, recreate and make all things new. It’s all God’s work, given for us and to us, “for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.” Philippians 2:13

    `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because **apart from me ye are not able to do anything**….’ John 15:5

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 9, 2013 at 12:26 am

    (Edy): He gets everything He desires.

    And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

    Did Omnipotent God get what He desires from Adam and Eve?

    You still continue to avoid why your god leaves >90% of mortal humanity in darkness without the Gospel knowing full well the extreme suffering awaiting them after death, while blessing only the remaining <10% with eternal life in this life and the next. That's neither fair nor loving.

    • admin May 9, 2013 at 1:52 am

      You appeal to the micro, while Edy appeals to the macro. Why don’t you address the macro? Does God get everything He desires, when all is said and done? That’s Edy’s point. You haven’t addressed her point, you invented a new one.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 9, 2013 at 3:15 am

        Alice, God is the God of both the little and the large. The micro is just as important to His honor as the macro. He told us if we are faithful in the little He’ll bless us with the more, not visa-versa. You will not be faithful about the little, will you?

        If your god gets what he desires why are so few people throughout the ages obeying his commandments and so very many not giving your god the obedience he commands?

        Alice, Edy’s point is not verified in actuality, while mine is. Greater than 90% throughout the ages have perished without confessing Christ and not a single one of them is by name verified currently saved. That’s a record that proves your error.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 9, 2013 at 2:07 pm

        Why, Alice, isn’t loosing more than 90% of humanity over six thousand years a macro consideration?

        Think of the figurative significance of 6K in relationship to 7K since God’s Biblical revelation makes 7 clearly His figurative number signifying completeness, especially since Christ and His saints reign one thousand years as the victorious conclusion of mortal human history. God seems to relish the small micro factors to confound human wisdom: all the minute details surrounding the Savior’s humble birth.

        No, Alice and Edy, after all is said and done every bit of the micro will have transpired just as God said, so:

        Did Omnipotent God get what He desires from Adam and Eve?

        And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

        Yes or no?

        • admin May 11, 2013 at 12:10 am

          yes

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 11, 2013 at 1:58 am

            Alice, explain. Since God said don’t eat from that tree and they did eat from that tree, that doesn’t look to me as though God got what He desired. Did God say one thing and desire just the opposite? Please explain.

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 11, 2013 at 2:13 am

              BTW, Alice, thank you for ALSO answering the loss of >90% is a macro consideration for you proving your god is a failure.

              It is a great savings in cyberspace to get one answer for two questions.

            • admin May 11, 2013 at 10:43 am

              The entire scene (the people, the serpent, the garden, the trees, the one particular tree, the command) is a God-ordained environment with one outcome, that is, humanity discovers the knowledge of good and evil. The command and the tree are two elements of it. Think about it.

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 11, 2013 at 1:07 pm

              Alice, you are saying God ORDAINED Adam’s and Eve’s sins?

              • admin May 11, 2013 at 10:15 pm

                God is sovereign. He knew exactly what He was doing.

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 11, 2013 at 2:22 pm

              Alice doesn’t answer her god commanded one thing and intended the complete opposite, implying her god is a perfect liar.

              • admin May 11, 2013 at 10:12 pm

                How can there be a knowledge of good and evil if everything is permissible?

                “What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, ‘You shall not covet.'”

            • Lanny A. Eichert May 12, 2013 at 1:04 am

              Alice, can’t you answer a simple question like did God desire Adam and Eve to sin?

              Is your answer all rapped up in your question: How can there be a knowledge of good and evil if everything is permissible? By God’s commandment their eating from that tree was not permissible and they knew {Romans 7: 7 your useage} that was evil BEFORE they ate. They knew it was permissible to eat of all the other trees, so they knew that was good. They HAD the knowledge of good and evil before they disobeyed.

              I ask you again, did God desire Adam and Eve to disobey His commandment and sin against Him?

              • admin May 12, 2013 at 1:51 am

                Define “desire”.

              • Lanny A. Eichert May 12, 2013 at 3:21 am

                The beginning of this thread above, May 9, 2013 at 12:26 I quoted (Edy): He gets everything He desires. Ask Edy, since I cannot find her post from which I quoted. Perhaps you have a search engine by which to locate it.

                May 11, 2013 at 12:10 am you answered a simple “yes” to my May 9, 2013 at 2:07 pm question: Did Omnipotent God get what He desires from Adam and Eve? So why now are you having trouble with its definition? You didn’t then. There’s been no change of meaning: “I ask you again” means AGAIN. Yes or no with a proper explanation.

                Did God desire Adam and Eve to disobey His commandment and sin against Him?

                • admin May 12, 2013 at 9:28 pm

                  If you define “desire,” then I will answer your question. If you do not define “desire,” then I will not answer your question.

                • Lanny A. Eichert May 13, 2013 at 1:07 am

                  Alice, it is only a six letter word and I don’t understand why it is such a problem unto you. God gave Adam and Eve a commandment, a law, to preserve their life and to prevent them from dying, because God is LIFE. Now what did that commandment reveal about God’s desire for Adam and Eve? Did God want Adam and Eve to die as a result of eating from the forbidden tree? How could “what God is” meaning LIFE ever desire or want His creature’s death? If He didn’t want them to die, then did He want them to eat from that tree?

                  Did God get what He wanted? Specifically, did God get what He wanted from Adam and Eve after giving them His Character-specific life-protecting commandment?

                  Now, Alice, does using the four letter word, want, make it easier for you to understand than the six letter word, desire?

                  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. {Genesis 2: 16 & 17}

                  Did God desire/want Adam and Eve to disobey His commandment and sin against Him?

                  Yes or no with a proper explanation., please.

                  • admin May 13, 2013 at 9:02 pm

                    Notice the difference between these two questions:

                    1. Did Omnipotent God get what He desires from Adam and Eve?
                    2. Did God desire/want Adam and Eve to disobey His commandment and sin against Him?

                    The answers, in my opinion:

                    1. Yes. What God desires is the human beings with the knowledge of good and evil, but without sin.

                    “And law came in, that the offence might abound…”

                    2. That depends on whether you examine the Garden scenario as an isolated incident or an incident that serves a greater purpose. If you believe that what happens in the Garden is the end of the story, then no. Of course God doesn’t want people to sin and die. If you believe that what happens in the Garden is the beginning of the story, then yes. God orchestrated the entire situation. He could have never created a way for humanity to discover the knowledge of good and evil. He could have prevented temptation. But He didn’t. Why? Because disobedience served a higher purpose in His omniscient will.

                    “…and where the sin did abound, the grace did overabound, that even as the sin did reign in the death, so also the grace may reign, through righteousness, to life age-during, through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

                    Do you see the word “that”? It explains the purpose of sin. The Garden doesn’t happen in a bubble outside of time and space and God’s will. God is sovereign in everything, including disobedience.

                    #2443 hína (a subordinating conjunction) – for the purpose that (in order that), looking to the aim (intended result) of the verbal idea.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2013 at 3:46 am

                    Alice, don’t you see your contradiction?

                    1. Did Omnipotent God get what He desires from Adam and Eve?
                    1. Yes. What God desires is the human beings with the knowledge of good and evil, but without sin.

                    But, Alice, they did sin, but you wrote: but without sin. Since they sinned, they got the knowledge WITH sin, not without it.

                    “He could have never created a way for humanity to discover the knowledge of good and evil.” What kind of god have you? My God is omniscient. Adam and Eve had the knowledge of good and evil before they sinned because they had God’s instruction. What better Instructor do you suppose there is than God Himself to impart such knowledge?

                    You believe Adam and Eve did not have the knowledge of good and evil before they ate from the forbidden tree and sinned doing so. You believe they had to sin to get that knowledge, because there was no other way to get it. You believe that knowledge is what God wanted them to have.

                    Alice, WHAT didn’t they know about good that Holy God wanted/desired them to know that Holy God hadn’t instructed them? WHAT didn’t they know about evil that Holy God wanted/desired them to know that Holy God hadn’t instructed them? Only a morally corrupt god tests his creatures in a manner designed for sure failure as you had suggested.

                    Alice, have you forgotten that God created Adam and Eve fully mature in every way which includes intellectually and emotionally as well as bodily mature. They lacked nothing, otherwise God is not thoroughly perfect in all His ways. Since they lacked nothing how could they be deficient in their knowledge of good and evil?

                    Alice, how could Adam and Eve have not known good and evil since Holy God is thorough even before their test?

                    • admin May 14, 2013 at 7:43 am

                      Regarding #1 – you’re not looking at the big picture. Will humanity EVER have a knowledge of good and evil and be without sin? If this is true of even one person, then sin has served God’s purpose. Does this mean God loves sin? No. Does this mean God approves of sin? No. Is God sovereign over sin? Yes, yes, yes. Do you see the difference? The main problem and reason why you write, “Since they sinned, they got the knowledge WITH sin, not without it,” is that you are not recognizing that God accomplishes His purposes at appointed times (ages). His plan of the ages spans waaaay beyond the Garden. That’s why you see Genesis 3:15 as a promise of things to come, instead of something that happens right there and then.

                      Do you believe that God is capable of ridding us of sin? Of course you do. So why are you having such a hard time with the concept that humanity ultimately can have a knowledge of good and evil, yet be without sin? Look at the outcome, Lanny, instead of looking only at what you see here and now or in the past. In the outcome, you see God’s desires, will, want, whatever you want to call it, coming to fruition.

                      You believe that there is no sin in Heaven, right? Do you also believe that the inhabitants of Heaven have a knowledge of good and evil? If you do believe this, then you should be able to wrap your brain around the big picture of how the first transgression serves God’s desire after all – whether you claim the transgression happened prior to or after the actual act.

                      We agree on two ideas, that is, unless I am mistaken about what you believe: A. God intends for humanity to have a knowledge of good and evil without sin, and B. humanity did attain the knowledge of good and evil at some point, which we will call “the Garden.”

                      And if you are the fundamentalist you claim to be, then you also believe that those who have sin, through Christ, can become those who have no sin.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2013 at 3:17 pm

                      Alice, oh how skillfully you call evil good and deny present reality. Few there be that are saved: then, now, and the future. Human history and Biblical history prove it. Jesus proved it {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}. The definition of church {ecclesia} proves it. Final Judgment proves it.

                      It is good that one man kills another: he means it for evil, but Alice’s god means it for good. Your god is corrupt and corrupts you. Even your imagined end result is corrupt: the reconciliation of all; corrupt because it is contrary to Jesus’ Matthew 7 & 13 teaching. He said you shall die IN YOUR SINS {John 8: 21 & 24} for unbelief: finished finality for the lost. Physical death IS the cutoff for salvation.

                      Wake up to reality !!! Wake up to truth before it is too late and you die IN YOUR SINS. Tomorrow is not promised to you, but the Lake of Fire is in the same way it was by Jonah’s God-given preaching: unless you repent.

                      Alice, Jesus is not the Liar you make Him to be. Judas Iscariot is still lost after 2,000 years and so is Adam’s son, Cain, after 6,000 years, and they will always be lost just like everybody else who dies IN THEIR SINS. You cannot produce a single Biblical record of an individual saved after physical death. Niether can you show me even one individual resurrected person according to your “every man in his own order” after 6,000 years of human history.

                      Jesus said in all finality to the repentant thief on the cross next to him, Verily I say unto thee, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.” So neither is there soul sleep upon physical death, but conscious life after death either in heaven or hell. By so many of Jesus’ words, dear Alice, are you proven a dreamer of false dreams. You really need to repent and acknowledge Jesus’ truth because He is not that Liar you think Him to be.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 16, 2013 at 8:29 pm

                      Alice asks, Will humanity EVER have a knowledge of good and evil and be without sin? In your words, dear Alice, humanity NEVER will have a knowledge of good and evil and be without sin.

                      Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. {Titus 1: 15 & 16}

                      Perfectly illustrated “in works they deny him” on this site by the blogs and comments posted here. The pure doctrine of eternal torment is here viewed as perfectly horrible. Judas Iscariot was prophetically declared lost/perished by Jesus to His Father in prayer {John 17: 12} and you all claim “not finally” as you add such a foreign idea even to creation its very self.

                      And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. {Genesis 2: 2 & 3} ENDED & RESTED

                      Alice doesn’t believe the end of any Bible story until everything is reconciled the way she falsely thinks of Ephesians 1: 10 and Colossians 1: 20 failing to realize only what already is in Christ {by means of mortal conversion by grace through faith} is gathered in reconciliation from among the remaining world. Instead she wants the whole unsaved world gathered into Christ. That’s not even the right preposition: the one used is not INTO, but simply IN meaning already IN the group. And she thinks she gives honest heed to the Greek? Only as much as it serves her purposes. That’s dishonesty.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2013 at 3:23 am

                      Alice writes, We agree on two ideas, that is, unless I am mistaken about what you believe: A. God intends for humanity to have a knowledge of good and evil without sin, and B. humanity did attain the knowledge of good and evil at some point, which we will call “the Garden.”

                      You are wrong on both A & B because your idea of a knowledge of good and evil is not God’s idea. I’ve told you this before that Adam and Eve knew good and evil BEFORE they were tested by God’s commandment. They knew by Divine instruction their knowledge of good and evil. All the while before they sinned they experienced the goodness of God by His sustaining grace and immediately before they sinned they experienced the evil of Satan as he maligned God and His commandment/word. They did NOT need to disobey and sin against God to experience evil and thus have an experiential knowledge of it. While they listened to Satan before they took and ate they were experiencing evil and gaining experiential knowledge of it. When they granted credibility to Satan they sinned in their heart/soul before they even ate and sinned in their bodies. Eve was deceived and Adam willfully followed in her deception.

                      You think God wanted them to grant Satan credibility? You think God wanted them to be deceived?

                      Let such never be said. {God forbid.} God had instructed them to be suspicious of anything contrary to His commandment and reject it. That is as far is their experiential knowledge of evil was supposed to go within the will of God. That’s as far as it was necessary for their testing to be complete and they would have produced only godly offspring and physically lived forever by eating from the tree of life enjoying the Garden and walking with God daily.

                      Alice, you are wrong to assume that God intended them to get something on their own that He had not provided to them. I told you that they were fully equipt with everything they needed or else God would have been negligent toward them. Your assumption makes your god wholly imperfect, putting it mildly, even contradicting your claim that your god can do anything he desires to do. You are vainly trying to avoid your god causing them to sin which essentially your god does by as you said setting them up to fail. Don’t you see that is the result of your “end of the story” routine insistence upon grace and rejecting the fact that God doesn’t get His way with mankind.

                      I’ve told you God gave freedom to mankind and as a result man was free to disobey God with eternal consequences. God desires obedience and when men disobey Him God is not getting what He desires. You say let’s look at the big picture, but you incorrectly manufactured your fantasy big picture that your god saves everybody, hence your god gets what he desires in the end, so the immediate situations don’t count for anything. That’s called justifying the means by the end. You’ll get fired from your job by doing that and discrediting your employer. God will blister your tail feather far worse for what you are doing than your employer. He’ll strive with you only so long before He terminates you.

                      Before the commandment in the Garden bondage to sin had not yet happened, so Adam and Eve were truly free to choose good or evil, yet it should be noted that their experience prior to the commandment was all positively good and should have biased them toward the good which had been so enjoyable because God was faithful.

                      Alice, you really should take this as a warning that when women are let to lead the whole world is destroyed and only God can salvage a little of it and that not perfectly as it was. Salvation removes sins but not the print of the nails in His hands visible for all to see for eternity.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2013 at 4:26 pm

                      Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. {James 1: 13 & 14}

  • Edy T Johnson May 9, 2013 at 1:57 am

    I think your argument rather proves my point, Lanny. All the consequences the Lord spelled out to Adam and Eve are limited to this world. “Hell on earth,” some call it, but the sentence ends with death and the grave. By that time we will all have learned the lessons God designed for us to learn. For example, that apart from Him we can do nothing.

    Everyone can then be raised incorruptible, new creation, transformed to the image of Christ Jesus.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 12, 2013 at 4:11 am

      Oh, Edy, you make physical death the point of conversion to truth for those who don’t get it while living their mortal life. God chose through the foolishness of preaching as the means of conversion, but you select death as the means thus eliminating any necessity of the gospel preaching. For you, physical death removes all sins from the dead sinner who died in his sins. You must then believe dying produces repentance in EVERY sinner or else repentance is not even necessary due to the educational learning experience of dying. Where in the world is Jesus Christ who died, was buried, and rose again for us?

      Unlike Alice, you must have no use for the purgatory effect of the Lake of Fire she claims. Her claims don’t fit anyway if they are raised incorruptible, new creation, transformed to the image of Christ Jesus before being sentenced to purging in the Lake, since there’s no sin to purge. She can’t make up her mind to the order of events anyway as she only depends on her perceived final outcome.

      Like her you ALL fail to consider the repentant thief to whom Jesus said, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. {Luke 23: 43} That’s real conscious life immediately after physical death attesting to the conscious existence of everybody who physically dies landing either in heaven or hell {Luke 16: 19 – 31}.

      Get with it, dear people, and throw away your non-mortal soul, soul sleep, universalism; and come to reality.

      Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. The repentant thief proves you all wrong. There is life after death either in heaven or hell apart from the earthly human body which is not necessary for consciousness.

      Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 12, 2013 at 4:38 am

      So,Edy, if Everyone can then be raised incorruptible, new creation, transformed to the image of Christ Jesus immediately after they physically die, has anybody been raised? Alice says the resurrection is according to 1 Corinthians 15: 23 “every man in his own order” and I am wondering if you have met anybody yet since over 6,000 years of humanity have died and qualified to be raised. Have you seen yet Adam and Eve or their three sons, Cain, Abel, or Seth? Since Jesus was raised and He appeared to His disciples the raised first family certainly could appear to mortals.

      Or is the Resurrection one big single event happening at one point in earth’s life time. Or is it two individual one time events as perhaps Jesus indicated in John 5: 29? Or is it as Alice thinks, a continuous event in progress today tailored to the individual’s progress, dependent upon works.

  • Edy T Johnson May 13, 2013 at 2:46 pm

    Q: What is the purpose of the Law?
    A: The law was our schoolmaster to bring/drive us to Christ.

    Imagine a classroom. The teacher sets the rules. Why? In order to facilitate learning. Tests are not a judgment, but a method for both the teacher to discover who needs more help, and also for the student to dig deeper into what they haven’t yet learned.

    Now, imagine the Garden of Eden and follow the above scenario. I see at least two things that the Almighty wants humanity to learn:
    1. That He alone knows how to love us best and provide for us like no one else can; and
    2. that apart from Him, we are utterly helpless, more dependent than a newborn babe that can only cry and make messes.

    My suggestion is that we PERCEIVE something as evil, because we don’t understand what God is doing. “You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.”

    Now, imagine that 90% of the students have been born with mental handicaps that make teaching them a huge challenge for the teacher. He does have another 10% that are not so afflicted, that have both a love of learning and a desire to help the teacher.

    Let’s imagine that six out of the ten think they help the teacher by smacking the 90% over the head with a book to make them learn. The other four are horrified by such a lack of compassion and understanding. These four realize that befriending the 90% already suffering in affliction, coming alongside to show them the wonder of learning, is a wonderful opportunity that the teacher has given them.

    And so, the 90% that experience such good news are able to learn what’s true, are enabled to respond to the point that they realize their mental handicaps have been overcome. So much so that they, in turn, become teaching helpers, knowing how difficult it was to learn, and so they join the ones with compassion and understanding to reach out to the afflicted.

    That, Lanny, is my attempt to illustrate for you the ministry of reconciliation that the Lord has entrusted to those of us counted among the 10% that you identify as being saved and that I consider part of the Church of the Firstborn.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2013 at 4:08 am

      Edy, greater than 90% will burn in the Lake of Fire forever because they ignore even God’s attempts to reconcile them much less the Church of the Firstborn. Wake up to the world wide rejection of Christ over six thousand years. It is fact, not fiction; and your god hasn’t improved the numbers all that time. Once they “die in their sins” they are FINISHED. Jesus said so. {John 8: 21 & 24}

      Your god is a failure, Edy, so get rid of him and get the real thing: become a dyed-in-the-wool fundamentalist and you’ll have the right Jesus.

      • Edy T Johnson May 14, 2013 at 12:44 pm

        Poor Lanny! You believe so much that just isn’t so. You sound more like the accuser of the brethren (or a hireling that abandons the sheep) than you sound like the Good Shepherd seeking the lost.

        It seems to me that you identify yourself with the “6%” (from my classroom illustration) who use the Bible as a sledgehammer, beating people over the head with select verses that you claim fit your dogma.

        But, you’re missing the rest of the story:

        Jesus was speaking to those spiritual leaders who prided themselves on doing everything right, themselves, while condemning those harlots and drunkard sinners (including Jesus, because He ate and drank with them) beneath their contempt!

        John 8:27ff – They *did not understand* that he had been speaking to them about the Father. 28 So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, *then you will know* that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” 30 As he was saying these things, many believed in him…34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever.

        36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed….

        He already has, and “It is finished.” Halleluia!

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 14, 2013 at 8:34 pm

        So Edy denys Jesus’ words in John 8: 21 & 24 and that her god is a failure to date after 6,000 years.

        Regarding verses 21 & 24 Jesus said (28) I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. Verses 21 & 24 have His Father’s authority: unbelievers die IN THEIR SINS. Their opportunity for forgiveness and salvation was lost the moment they died. Death was the cutoff of their salvation offer. They are cemented in their unbelief to eternally perish in eternal torment.

        Satan knows God right now better than any of us, but he’s not saved.

      • Edy T Johnson May 17, 2013 at 12:47 pm

        Lanny A. Eichert says: May 16, 2013 at 8:29 pm
        “The pure doctrine of eternal torment is here viewed as perfectly horrible.”

        Pure doctrine of eternal torment?! What abominable blasphemy of the God who is Love, whose mercies endure forever!

        Psa 18:25 With the loyal thou dost show thyself loyal; with the blameless man thou dost show thyself blameless; 26 with the pure thou dost show thyself pure; and with the crooked thou dost show thyself perverse.

        Pro 16:2 All the ways of a man are pure in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the spirit.
        Pro 20:9 Who can say, “I have made my heart clean; I am pure from my sin”?
        Pro 30:12 There are those who are pure in their own eyes but are not cleansed of their filth.

        Zep 3:8 “Therefore wait for me,” says the LORD, “for the day when I arise as a witness. For my decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out upon them my indignation, all the heat of my anger; for in the fire of my jealous wrath all the earth shall be consumed. 9 “Yea, at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that ALL of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him with one accord.

        [SEE – this world is the place of judgment and consequences for our part in the curse of sin and death. It all ends with God’s New Creation, provided by the blood of the Lamb]

        Jam 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

        Psa 19:14 Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 18, 2013 at 4:06 am

        Thank you, Edy, for providing Psalm 18: 26 as a good foundation for Titus 1: 15 & 16

        Just so you know Zephaniah 3: 9 are those mortals not destroyed by God’s fierce anger of verse 8 AND the daughter of my dispersed in verse 10 is the ethnic Israelite nation to whom God promised His Kingdom reign literally on David’s throne in Jerusalem: Messiah’s rule.

        Edy, it is blasphemy to call Jesus a Liar for prophetically declaring Judas Iscariot lost/perished by Jesus to His Father in His prayer {John 17: 12}. That prayer proves the doctrine of eternal torment is pure rather than blasphemous. So does the fact that the Holy Bible closes with the populated Lake of Fire without remedy. Again: I stand on God’s Word, then do it here, as you claim.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 18, 2013 at 9:57 pm

      Edy, do I need to remind you again of the repentant thief to whom Jesus said, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise {Luke 23: 43} to prove physically dead people go CONSCIOUSLY immediately to heaven or hell {Luke 16: 19 -31} without their physical bodies. That’s not blasphemy, either.

      Please do stand on God’s Word, as you say you do. Luke 16 & 23.

  • Edy T Johnson May 15, 2013 at 11:02 pm

    Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were **dead in sins,** hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that **not of yourselves:** [it is] the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are *his* workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    Are you a humanist, Lanny, pushing the idea that man is sovereign, the master of his fate?

    I am not a humanist. The God of the Bible is Sovereign. “We are weak, but He is strong. Yes, Jesus loves me…the Bible tells me so.”

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2013 at 1:22 am

      Edy, His workmanship is the ELECT and nobody else. This epistle is written to believers who are the us and we and ye in these sentences and does NOT extend to unbelievers. When will you get that through your eye gate and into your mind?

      Man is NOT sovereign nor the master of his own fate, but God is both toward man saying I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. {Romans 9: 15, 16} Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth. {Romans 9: 18} Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, {Romans 9: 21 – 23}

      The greater than 90%, the many, the lost are the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction and the vessels of mercy are the less than 10%, the few, the saved.

      As Jesus said: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}

      God is rich in mercy and love toward His believers in particular as described in the passage you quote {Ephesians 2: 4 – 10}. Your verse five emphasis of dead in sins is clearly the small group called “us” being the Apostle, his company, the church members at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus everywhere as per 1: 1. Verse 2 of chapter 1 should clue you to the fact that peace is only given to those in Christ meaning those addressed are saints not everybody in the world who have no peace since they don’t have Christ.

      Tell me something: would you tell the world the things your spouse wrote you before you wed applies to every one in the world? Certainly not because they were not the addressed. Well, neither is the world addressed by God.

      I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. {John 17: 9} Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word {John 17: 20}

      Get this through your heads, dear people, Jesus died for the world, yet He did NOT pray for the world. He prayed ONLY for the ELECT, only those given to Him by His Father. Verse 20 takes the reader from Jesus incarnation to today. Jesus prayed even for His ELECT of the twenty-first century and of every century between His First and Second Comings. Can’t you see there is the world of unbelievers even unto His Second Coming and even into the Thousand Years initiated by His Second Advent. His ELECT span from the Fall to the Final Judgment. They are the only us and we and ye in these sentences of the Ephesian Epistle referenced by this text and the focus of Jesus’ prayer. The ELECT are all MORTAL persons and nobody else is the subject of Jesus’ prayer or the us and we and ye of Ephesians or any other Epistles of the Holy Bible.

      That leaves nobody else to receive salvation from God, meaning >90% perish in the eternal Lake of Fire in eternal torments; and physical death is the cutoff for salvation. LOOK at the world’s population and see FEW even claim salvation by Christ after 6,000 years of human history. With SEVEN as God’s number of completeness and the thousand year reign yet future, we are approaching the end of human civilization as we know it if indeed God has determined seven thousand years from creation to final judgment and the New Heaven and New Earth. The Thousand Year Reign of Christ is past due by thirteen years if our ancient history and our calendar are correct. We’ve gotten through Y2K as a possible signal our historical dating is flawed.

      The bottom line is that you cannot take texts from their historical context and universally apply the text. You don’t do that with your love letters, so don’t do it with the Holy Bible.

  • Edy T Johnson May 17, 2013 at 11:31 am

    And what, pray tell, are the elect ELECT for? Like the Pharisees, to keep it to themselves and lord it over all the trash Gentiles?

    Like the church, the CHOSEN people had a ministry, fulfilled in producing the Messiah. God has given us, the Church of the Firstborn, our assignment as ministers of RECONCILIATION. Other sheep He has which are not of this (chosen people/elect) fold – them ALSO He must bring.

    We are the Body of Christ in the world. Jesus had only 12 disciples, whom He prayed for. But, His work on the cross certainly wasn’t limited to these few.

    I stand on God’s Word, not the frail interpretations and Scripture twisting of men. Neither the works of the devil nor the failure of Adam will succeed, because Christ IS Victorious. God is not a loser, no matter how you try to paint the picture, Lanny. And, He LOVES His creation. He certainly is not going to throw out the baby with the bath water.

    I am so grateful you and those who follow your arguments are not the judges of God’s creation, no matter how much you try to make others think you alone have it all figured out.

    “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that SHOWETH MERCY!”

    1Jo 2:1 My little children, I am writing this to you so that you may not sin; but if any one does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

    2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and **not for ours only** but also for the sins of **the whole world.**

    – 30 –

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2013 at 3:58 pm

      Yes, Edy, Jesus had only 12 disciples, whom He prayed for. But, His work on the cross certainly wasn’t limited to these few. Jesus ALSO prayed for the persons converted by their ministries the the ministries of those after them and so on even to today and on to the Final Judgment Day. The Twelve by the grace of God saw thousands converted, but the will of God was not to sustain that growth rate throughout the centuries. As it remains today only 10% {of the world’s population} or less even claim Christianity, let alone are actually regenerated. According to your expectation of your god saving everybody, less than 10% is a failure rate if Edy would face the reality of the last two thousand years since the Cross. However when you consider Jesus’ words in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 telling us about the many and the few it becomes understandable that God does NOT intend to save the world, but only the ELECT. His intention is to save His elect by the foolishness of preaching the Cross to the whole world where His elect are found here one and there one, and little by little His elect are gathered into one body, the church, which excludes the world of unbelievers purely by the definition of ecclesia, which itself proves your universalism totally false. Even the Israel of God {Galatians 6: 16} proves your universalism totally false because {Romans 9: 6} they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. Only true Israel are the all Israel that shall be saved {Romans 11: 26}. They are the elect, not the untrue Israel.

      I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. {John 17: 9} Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word {John 17: 20}

      You don’t like how exclusively Jesus prayed, do you, Edy, especially when Jesus said I pray not for the world? I stand on God’s Word, then do it here, as you claim. Forget universalism and believe in the ELECT of God. It has always been God’s plan.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 17, 2013 at 4:12 pm

        Sorry Alice, It has always been God’s plan since Adam and Eve sinned.

        • Edy T Johnson May 17, 2013 at 11:52 pm

          You didn’t answer my question: “And what, pray tell, are the elect ELECT for? Like the Pharisees, to keep it to themselves and lord it over all the trash Gentiles?”

          I even gave you clues to the Biblical answer.

          • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2013 at 6:01 am

            Edy, I quote my May 17, 2013 at 3:58 pm above:
            His intention is to save His elect by the foolishness of preaching the Cross to the whole world where His elect are found here one and there one, and little by little His elect are gathered into one body, the church, which excludes the world of unbelievers purely by the definition of ecclesia, which itself proves your universalism totally false.
            Who do you think is entrusted the preaching mission? Missions is the work of the church and the church is composed only of the ELECT. The unregenerate peoples of the world are not members of the church, but are the subjects of the church’s preaching mission. Evangelism belongs only to those who have been instantaneously born again by the words of the perfect literal Holy Bible {1 Peter 1: 23}. So you see, I did answer your question which is not to keep it to themselves. Anybody that can keep it to himself is not saved. That’s why I get in so much trouble.

  • Edy T Johnson May 18, 2013 at 1:52 am

    Lanny A. Eichert says: May 17, 2013 at 1:22 am

    Edy, His workmanship is the ELECT and nobody else. This epistle is written to believers who are the us and we and ye in these sentences and does NOT extend to unbelievers. When will you get that through your eye gate and into your mind?
    ——-
    And you have this on what authority, Lanny?

    Jhn 1:3 ALL things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [ie: the elect are only part of God’s workmanship]

    Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to ALL people. 11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2013 at 6:40 am

      Edy asks what authority? I also gave that answer this way:
      Tell me something: would you tell the world the things your spouse wrote you before you wed applies to every one in the world? Certainly not because they were not the addressed.
      The perfect literal Holy Bible is to be read with the same respect and understanding afforded any other literature, and more so because God Himself authored it, so it commands absolute authority over saints/elect. So just like a book written about six million Jews killed in Hitler’s Germany addresses their unique experiences, it is not to be interpreted as happening to the whole world. Maintain the CONTEXT of the Holy Bible if you would understand it. It is God’s love letter and Owner’s Manual to His saints; and if you’re not one of His saints/elect it has only little authority over you. God owns His saints/elect because He has purchased them with His own Holy Blood shed on the Cross. They no longer belong to themselves and they need a manual to know how to live this regenerated life. That Manual, called the Holy Bible, is written solely for them and would be foolish for the worldling to try to follow. It requires Holy Spirit power to live what is instructed to the saints/elect and the worldling doesn’t have Holy Spirit power nor a regenerated heart. Now do you see why you cannot universally apply everything in the Holy Bible to everybody?

  • Edy T Johnson May 18, 2013 at 9:54 pm

    Lanny writes: “Just so you know Zephaniah 3: 9 are those mortals not destroyed by God’s fierce anger of verse 8 AND the daughter of my dispersed in verse 10 is the ethnic Israelite nation to whom God promised His Kingdom reign literally on David’s throne in Jerusalem: Messiah’s rule.”

    Yes, my point, the place of judgment is in this world under the curse; the testing and judgment/punishment ends at death. Death and “hell” (the grave) will be destroyed, not “eternal.” Jesus makes all things new, so all of His creation to include all the children of the world will be raised incorruptible, transformed, no longer subject to sin and death.

    Lanny: “Edy, it is blasphemy to call Jesus a Liar for prophetically declaring Judas Iscariot lost/perished by Jesus to His Father in His prayer {John 17: 12}. That prayer proves the doctrine of eternal torment is pure rather than blasphemous. So does the fact that the Holy Bible closes with the populated Lake of Fire without remedy.”

    I repeat: Pure doctrine of eternal torment?! What abominable blasphemy of the God who is Love, whose mercies endure forever!

    You read so much into a text that isn’t there, Lanny.

    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. [Death and the Grave now empty]

    Hbr 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire. [I’m reminded of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, unscathed in the fiery furnace; only what bound them was destroyed. That is God’s purpose.]

    Now, if I may suggest it, please pursue a study of the words that you claim equal “eternal torment.” Do a search of the Hebrew and Greek words that have been translated “hell” to include the original definition of “hell,” itself. At least two of the Greek words are borrowed from Greek and Roman mythology. Meaning: they bring baggage from pagan fiction that paint a picture not found anywhere in the Bible, but has crept into church doctrine, polluting the Good News of Christ victorious over sin and death.

    2Ti 2:24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness.

    And so, I shall conclude what I began by declaring that I have every expectation of seeing that other thief raised to new life to meet the Lord in the air alongside the rest of us. And that not because of anything we have done or left undone, but because of God’s great mercies which are new every morning. Great is HIS faithfulness. It certainly isn’t ours.

    John 12:32 “And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

    Let’s be about our Father’s business, lifting up Jesus, the Light of the world, for all those still struggling in the dark. That’s our assignment as ministers of reconciliation (not alienation, which is the devil’s doing). Peace be with you all!

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2013 at 12:20 pm

      Edy, when death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire the story continues.

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 19, 2013 at 12:16 pm

    Dear Edy, Why did you fail to continue your quote of the Revelation 20 to include verse 15?

    And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Why do your ignore Luke 16: 19 – 31 since Jesus spoke those words as well as John 17: 12 to which you also gave no good reason supposing paganism FIRST published the idea of hell? You fail to realize God’s true religion came BEFORE paganism. Paganism borrowed from God to malign His true religion by distortions and thus discredit God.

    Don’t ignore Scripture, dear Edy.

    • Edy T Johnson May 20, 2013 at 9:10 pm

      I have studied the parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16). In the interest of time and space, check this link, one of the best explanations on the topic that I have found: http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d030602.htm

      Hopefully, it will answer all the rest of your questions, too. I sincerely hope you read it from beginning to end.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 21, 2013 at 12:18 pm

        Edy, FYI, two and a half tribes inherited their land on the east side of Jordan via the assistance of the whole army of Israel to dispossess the native peoples. The conquering of the promised land does not picture enterance into heaven, but Christian warfare. The promised land include BOTH sides of Jordan.

        God confounded your interpretation of Luke 16: 19 – 31 by giving the Israelites their broad land. You interpretation is built of the inaccuracies of songs and folk lore besides a desire to deny eternal torment.

        Besides the Revelation 20: 14 story doesn’t end at verse 14 and your deliberate avoidance of verse 15 proves you refuse to believe ALL the Scriptures God wrote and TO WHOM.

        And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

        God has a book of whom He will save {His plan}. They are called the ELECT. If you are not one, you are not in His book, and you will be cast into the eternal Lake of Fire as trash to burn forever in eternal torment. Not nice? You forget that God doesn’t have to save everybody. He would have destroyed all of Israel except for Moses’ intervention. God would have started all over with a new people, except for Moses. God is sovereignly gracious and He will have justice also.

        Don’t reveal your spouse’s love letters to strangers and tell them all he wrote applies to them as well.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 21, 2013 at 12:25 pm

        Oh, Edy, your refusal to include the Revelation 20: 15 proves God’s love letter, the Holy Bible, is NOT FOR YOU by your own desire; and your name is NOT WRITTEN IN HIS BOOK.

        And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

  • Edy T Johnson May 21, 2013 at 8:09 pm

    I previously quoted:
    Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. [Death and the Grave now **empty**]

    Hbr 12:28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe; 29 for **our God is a consuming fire.** [I’m reminded of Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, unscathed in the fiery furnace; only what bound them was destroyed. That is God’s purpose.]

    Lanny wrote: “Besides the Revelation 20: 14 story doesn’t end at verse 14 and your deliberate avoidance of verse 15 proves you refuse to believe ALL the Scriptures God wrote and TO WHOM. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire…Oh, Edy, your refusal to include the Revelation 20: 15 proves God’s love letter, the Holy Bible, is NOT FOR YOU by your own desire; and your name is NOT WRITTEN IN HIS BOOK. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

    I guess you missed the connection between “the lake of fire” and the words “our God is a consuming fire.”

    Jesus took the sin of the whole world to the cross. Our consuming-fire Almighty God removes everything that binds the world in brokenness and fear. Our Good Shepherd heals the broken-hearted and sets captives free; and I love Him.

    So much for your judgment about whose name is included in the Lamb’s Book of Life. Who made you judge of the world, anyway, Lanny. Are you acquainted with the accuser of the brethren? Your writing sounds more like it’s erupting from that source than from the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

    Maybe you just need a new pair of glasses so you can see what you’re missing.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 22, 2013 at 3:26 am

      Edy, you still have not included the persons of verse 15 being dispatched into the SAME place as death and hell, meaning their final personal condition is the SAME as death and hell, neither of which are annihilated or cease to exist because the text doesn’t say that, only that they both are there forever because the Lake of Fire is forever. You fail to realize death and hell momentarily released {verse 13} all of its occupants to stand before God’s Great White Throne Judgment Seat to answer for their unbelief before being reunited with both death and hell in the Lake of Fire along with the Beast, the False Prophet, and Satan with his demonic unclean spirits.

      You make no explanation of what you mean by a connection between the Lake of Fire and God being a consuming fire. How am I supposed to understand what you mean by that? I wish to remind you that sins never cease to exist, rather they are only “put away” or divorced as far as the east is from the west, since that is what forgiveness is, leaving forever the wounds in Christ’s hands, feet, and side for all saints to forever see just as He showed Thomas after His bodily resurrection from the dead, signifying they will be forever visible in His glorified incorruptible immortal body. Sins do NOT evaporate: the past is always the past; history cannot be changed. Once Adam and Eve ruined God’s creation, not even God could undo that totally, that’s why it must destroyed by fire and a whole new heaven and a whole new earth be created {2 Peter 3: 10 – 13}.

      Hebrews 12: 29 our God is a consuming fire and Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are all related to saints and have nothing to do with the Revelation 20: 15 destiny of unbelievers; so where’s the connection? The “our” of our God is a consuming fire refers to the God of believers and certainly the three Hebrew children are those who have trusted in the only God that exists. Those not written in the Book of Life do not own the only God that exists so to them there is no “our God” to be a consuming fire. I suppose that when they are thrown into the Lake of Fire they might acknowledge the Christian God is a consuming fire, but that is the God of Christians, not their god(s).

      Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were NOT consumed by Babylon’s fire so where’s the connection to God’s fire? You got the wrong fire there, Edy, don’t you? Babylon’s fire burnt the ropes that bound them.

      So what’s your supposed connection between the Revelation 20: 15 and Hebrews 12: 29, dear Edy, and why you avoid verse 15 with 14?

  • Edy T Johnson May 23, 2013 at 12:57 am

    Lanny, perhaps you can answer some questons for me, for a change.
    1. If “hell” and the lake of fire are not the same thing, how do you define “hell?”
    2. Where do you read that sins never cease to exist? Do you have a specific quote, or is that just your own conclusion?
    3. If the “elect” are elect because God chose them, then where does that leave those God didn’t elect? Do they even have a chance to become believers? And, why should they be doomed if they never had a chance to begin with?
    4. Is Jesus a failure, because He died for the sins of the whole world, but He won’t be able to “make all things new” because sinners made it impossible for Him to win?
    5. Isn’t it possible that there is no one whose name is not found in the book of life?
    6. Did you know that the word translated “torment” in several places in Revelation and elsewhere, is basanizō, in the Greek, and the first definition of the word is testing for purity?
    7. When the Holy Spirit appeared as tongues of fire at Pentecost, would you conclude that fire was from God, who is a consuming fire? Did the tongues of fire consume the apostles? Please explain.
    8. If as you claim 90% of the world’s population is doomed to the lake of fire forever, is that not due to our failure to carry out our assignment as ministers of reconciliation, rather than God’s failure? Please explain your claim that God is a failure, which He certainly would be if He fails to restore His creation as He says.

    That should be enough for now.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 25, 2013 at 12:03 am

      Edy, you seem to equate Hell and the Lake of Fire, but since Hell is cast INTO the Lake of Fire, the two cannot be the same thing. Hell is the temporary conscious abode of the wicked between their physical death and the Great White Throne Judgment. The Lake of Fire is the permanent conscious abode of the wicked.

      Where does Edy read sins cease to exist? God says to the New Covenant believer He will remember them no more, and since God can choose to not remember them they must continue to exist.

      The non-elect suffer the just reward of their total depravity: it is their depravity that prevents their faith in the Gospel which is available to everybody. God is sovereign and has the just right to use them as He sees fit as He did with Judas Iscariot, Pharaoh, and Esau.

      Jesus does make all things new for His saints when He dissolves this present heavens and earth after the Great White Throne Judgment of the wicked.

      Revelation 17: 8 “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” is a sure example of the majority of humanity having their names absent, since these of this context NEVER had their names written there and their conduct proves it.

      The first definition of a word is not necessarily the best in the context otherwise there’d not be second and third definitions.

      Edy, your words, “appeared as tongues of fire”, answer your concern. The fire was not real. “AS”

      God is not the failure, just your god is because you claim your god saves everybody. My God saves only His elect as He planned on schedule only during this mortal earth life.

      Please reread May 22, 2013 at 3:26 am above and see how I answered some of these questions there also.

      Edy, now that you’ve been instructed and have given yourself time to think through these things, will you continue to avoid verse 15 with 14 in the Revelation 20?

      • Edy T Johnson May 25, 2013 at 12:29 pm

        Thank you for your attention to my questions for you, Lanny. As I read your replies, I perceive you follow the doctrine of double-ended predestination. Do correct me if that is not where you are coming from.

        I also see how you might find “proof text” support for some of your arguments, but not for all. For example, to claim that “Hell is the temporary CONSCIOUS abode of the wicked” is clearly refuted by Scripture in
        numerous places. While I do not equate hell and the lake of fire, it is my inadequate choice of word that might have left you with that impression. I should have written “SINCE hell and the lake of fire are not the same
        thing…” rather than “IF….” Sorry for the confusion and the opportunity to clarify. This does illustrate how easily words can trip up our understanding, however!

        Before giving you an answer to your burning question of me, and since you haven’t given me reason to believe that you have done a word study on the few words that are used to support a dogma of eternal torment, let me
        give you a hopefully brief introduction, off the top of my head but based on a background of word studies.

        SHEOL – the Hebrew word for the grave/hidden/unseen, but “edited” in translation as a number of other words, including “hell” in some versions/translations (when used in connection with the “wicked”). I challenge you to find any reference at all to postmortem punishment in the entire Hebrew Bible/Old Testament. It isn’t there. That could hardly be an oversight, if that were such a critical doctrine as so many claim it is. What is there is judgment/consequences in this world.

        HADES – For some strange reason, but perhaps the result of influence from the Babylonian captivity, the Septuagint used this word from pagan mythology when translating the Hebrew SHEOL into Greek. If you are
        acquainted with all the “gods of the underworld” connected with this fiction, you will realize it has no support in Scripture. So, we do have to beware of theology that isn’t based on sound language studies. Bad translations
        can create a mountain of confusion.

        GEHENNA – as you probably know, refers to the burning garbage dump outside Jerusalem. blueletterbible.org is my favorite online study tool. You can check the Hebrew and Greek behind the English translation to see
        where and how these words are used in context. As I understand Jesus’ use of the word, His warnings related to everyday situations rather than some postmortem threat.

        TARTURUS – is another word, used only once in the NT, also gleaned from Greek mythology and its accompanying fictitious notions, but perhaps the best/only word available for the context.

        INFERNO – this is the word Jerome used when translating the Bible into Latin. For those of us who studied Latin, we know its meaning has nothing to do with fire, but is more like Sheol’s definition: under the earth.

        HELL – surprise, the original meaning of even this word has nothing to do with fire, but more like protection! “Helling” potatoes means to cover them (for winter keeping). The same root is found in words like “HELmet,” a
        protection for one’s head. Somehow, over the generations and eons, words take on implications far from the original because of misuse and confusion.

        …to be continued…

  • Edy T Johnson May 25, 2013 at 2:52 pm

    For your question about the 90 per cent, Lanny:
    A: God’s kingdom is not of this world. the 90% figure (if true) is our responsibility as ministers of reconciliation. The elect are the Body of Christ to go into all the world. The world is and the lost are our mission field. The Good Shepherd LEAVES the 99 in the fold and goes out after the one that is lost, so His flock may be complete. Could it be that 1% is the people without compassion who need to be captured by the Good Shepherd? The well (the 99 in the fold) have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. So much for the “elect” being the only ones Jesus died for, when the Bible tells us plainly that He died for all and He reclaims all (through our ministry, bringing Christ to the nations), because He IS the Good Shepherd. He doesn’t let the wolf steal a single lamb.

    Q: Edy, now that you’ve been instructed and have given yourself time to think through these things, will you continue to avoid verse 15 with 14 in the Revelation 20?

    A: Rev 20:12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls — according to their works; 13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; 14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire — this [is] the second death; 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

    Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; :2 and I, John, saw the holy city — new Jerusalem — coming down from God out of the heaven, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband; :3 and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them — their God, :4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.’

    First of all, Lanny, in v. 15, you are hinging your argument on a conditional word, IF. That’s why I previously asked you my “what if?” question.

    Secondly, for my argument that this world is the realm of consequences and judgment for those under the curse of sin and death, we are all “dead in tresspasses and sins.” (20:12) None of us asked to be born into this environment, did we! We’re stuck, through no fault of our own, but we still suffer the consequences, even unborn babies die, though you would have to make a stretch to claim that they are wicked and depraved. No, we are all simply “conceived in sin.” That’s all of us, not just those born out of wedlock.

    So, you see, things aren’t as cut and dried as a superficial reading might indicate.

    Then, we could do a word search for fire, which is related to purification. I maintain it is the WORKS and WAYS that are consumed, not God’s creation, if we do careful reading, ie “the WAY of the ungodly shall perish.” That does not say that the ungodly will perish, but their ways, which block them from seeing their Redeemer, will be removed. You wouldn’t claim that a loving mother would throw out her baby with the bath water; surely God has more compassion for His creation.

    1Cr 3:13 Every man’s WORK shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is…15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    I’m convinced the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth has to do with people mourning their pet projects and dogmas revealed as straw.

    As for “eternal torment,” the Bible tells us “…nor shall there be any more pain, because the first THINGS did go away.” (21:4)

    Now, instead of assuming that the lake of fire, and our God who is a consuming fire, equal eternal torment, I think you might have to take another look at the evidence.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 25, 2013 at 11:52 pm

      No, Edy, just how you remove what you will from their contexts is so evident. {another look}

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2013 at 9:42 am

    Edy writes: First of all, Lanny, in v. 15, you are hinging your argument on a conditional word, IF. That’s why I previously asked you my “what if?” question.

    Edy fails to understand εἴ τις with the indicative εὑρέθη “is simply and generally assumed to be.” So her “what if” is impossible. That is why the KJV is “whosoever was not found.” The whosoever is all the dead, small and great, standing before God {verse 12}.

    Regarding double-ended predestination as you like to insist, the answer is no because God did NOT predestine Adam and Eve to sin. I hope you read my conflict with Alice on that subject. The conception of your life has nothing to do with your will any way so you have no right to complain you were conceived in sin apart from your will. Psalm 58: 3 clear tells babies are sinners IN THE WOMB.

    The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

    Don’t you see “estranged from the womb”? Estrangement from God begins right from the moment they are in the womb, the moment of conception. That’s the real meaning of conceived in sin. Sins cause estrangement from God. Proof positive is they are liars the moment they are born. You don’t see that, do you? You will not believe that because you want to elevate your own understanding above the written word of God. Who’s right, God or you?

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2013 at 10:40 am

    Edy, blueletterbible.org is also my tool, but I also graduated as a dormatory student from a three year Bible Institute in West Virginia containing four semesters of New Testament Greek.

    The “is simply and generally assumed to be” is quoted from the blueletterbible if you would have had the insight to look further down G1536 by clicking for the rest of the entry and paid attention to 1. with the Indicative of all tenses ….

    Even with only two years of NT Greek I have to be careful not to make an ignorant statement. You erred not knowing enough and assuming too much.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 26, 2013 at 10:48 am

      Edy, it would be well to translate “assumed to be” as “since” and would therefore be “since any were not found in the book of life they all were cast into the lake of fire.”

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2013 at 2:14 pm

      since any were not found in the book of life they (all) were cast into the lake of fire
      Is a proper translation of the Revelation 20: 15.
      The they (all) are the dead, small and great, standing before God {verse 12}.
      They came from the sea, death, and hell {verse 13} to stand in judgment and since death and hell were cast into the lake of fire {verse 14} they rejoin death and hell in the lake of fire since they also are cast into the Lake of Fire.

      It is all rather simple, don’t you think, yet it proves salvation is not for everybody?

  • Lanny A. Eichert May 27, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Alice, since any were not found in the book of life they (all) were cast into the lake of fire is the big picture.

    Remember you complain to me that “you’re not looking at the big picture.” The big picture is that the perfect literal Holy Bible concludes with the Lake of Fire populated without remedy as its last written entry, the Revelation, draws to a close.

  • Edy T Johnson May 28, 2013 at 2:03 am

    L: So her “what if” is impossible. That is why the KJV is “whosoever was not found.” The whosoever is all the dead, small and great, standing before God….
    E: The literal translation (YLT) is “If.” The dead are either walking this earth, or dead in the grave and gone. Because we are not raised corruptible but incorruptible. The Word of God tells us so.

    L: Psalm 58: 3 clear tells babies are sinners IN THE WOMB.
    E: Did I write that was not the case? No I didn’t. Go read again: “conceived in sin” because we are in this world under the curse of sin and death. The wages of sin (we all have it) is death (thus we all die). We don’t do a thing to make ourselves sinners, likewise we cannot do anything to make ourselves righteous. Thus no not one is innocent of sin, besides Jesus. He is the only One capable of saving us. He alone rescues us from the curse. The remedy is sufficient for the disease. But, I’ve already explained all this to you. Am I casting pearls before swine? I hope not.

    L: …the perfect literal Holy Bible concludes with the Lake of Fire populated without remedy as its written entry….
    E: Actually, the conclusion is two chapters later. Rev 22:20 he saith — who is testifying these things — `Yes, I come quickly!’ Amen! Yes, be coming, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [is] with you all. Amen

    Lanny, I’m all for Bible school study. Head knowledge is important, but it doesn’t stop there. Theory needs practice. The head needs to be informed by the heart as well, since God looks on the heart. From what I’ve been reading from you, I begin to wonder if you know the Good News by heart or only a theory in your head. How has the world’s suffering touched your heart, your own or the suffering of others? Does suffering move you to compassion for the lost, or to rage? Are you like Corrie ten Boom, who hated her Nazi captors? Or, have you had the experience of her sister Betsie, who saw past the barriers erected by the devil to love her Nazi guards as well as their victims?

    Only love is the fulfilling of the law, the love of God in Christ Jesus, whom we love because He first loves us. Love isn’t something we cook up. It is God’s gift poured into us to overflow to others.

    I am so delighted to proclaim with the angels, “Behold I bring you glad tidings of great joy which shall be to ALL people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord!

    Rom 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 28, 2013 at 8:14 pm

      Edy, regarding the Revelation 20: 15 “if” you wrote before you had the chance to read my May 26, 2013 at 10:40 am, May 26, 2013 at 10:48 am, and May 27, 2013 at 2:14 pm posts explaining how you can verify “if” ought to be “since” by reading on your blueletterbible further down G1536 than you must have. It is an “if and it is true” kind of statement meaning everybody’s name was absent from the Book of Life, not found written which is truly the case of every name search.

      Edy at first wrote: “babies die, though you would have to make a stretch to claim that they are wicked and depraved”, and after I responded: “Psalm 58: 3 clearly tells babies are sinners IN THE WOMB”, now she asks: “Did I write that was not the case?” I hope she sees by “stretch” she insists wicked and depraved they are not. She tries to claim babies die under the curse without being wicked and depraved while they were in the womb. It looks like she believes in being a sinner without ever having done anything wrong when she wrote we don’t do a thing to make ourselves sinners? Psalm 58: 3 tells they are wicked and depraved in the womb: the wicked are estranged from the womb. Did I not explain estrangement from God is due to committing sins? Can a person be a sinner before committing his first sin? I think that’s what Edy thinks probably because she cannot see how sins can be committed in the womb even though this verse clearly states estrangement.
      But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. {Isaiah 59: 2} is the estrangement principle even in the womb.

      The Revelation concludes with the populated Lake of Fire mentioned in 19, 20, and 21 without any change in 22, so it IS proper to say the last God-given inspired text leaves us with an intact populated Lake of Fire without remedy. That Biblical conclusion in black and white on paper with ink defeats any notion of saving everybody.

      Just because you can’t see my pity for you all in writing against your error doesn’t mean I lack love and only demonstrate hate toward you all as you swallow Satan’s poisons.

  • Edy T Johnson May 29, 2013 at 2:02 am

    FYI – I don’t know anything about the author of this quote, but I like the quote:
    “The truth of the matter is that we are uncomfortable with God. We’re disoriented by the way He loves. We want God to love us for an endless number of good reasons. At the same time, we find ourselves nervous before Him because He sees right through us and knows everything that isn’t lovable. He tells us that He is our place of rest, acceptance, and unconditional love, yet we cannot reconcile this love. We know who we are. We know all that is unlovely within us. We wonder how we have become worthy of such love, and that’s what worries us- we know we’re not.

    “It’s so hard for us to believe that if you come near to God, you will find yourself not drowning in condemnation, but swimming in compassion.

    “Jesus called to all who were weary and who found their souls exhausted to come to him and find rest. He is telling us that God will be for us our place called home.
    We run from God because we long to be loved and we have convinced ourselves that the One who is most loving could not and would not embrace us.
    We run from the One our souls crave.
    It is insanity to run from God and search for love.”
    ~Erwin McManus

  • Edy T Johnson May 30, 2013 at 1:57 am

    Lanny writes: “The Revelation concludes with the populated Lake of Fire mentioned in 19, 20, and 21 without any change in 22, so it IS proper to say the last God-given inspired text leaves us with an intact populated Lake of Fire without remedy. That Biblical conclusion in black and white on paper with ink defeats any notion of saving everybody…”

    If that is the case, Lanny, then how can you be sure God saves anybody, in particular, how can you be sure your own name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life?

    L: “…Just because you can’t see my pity for you all in writing against your error doesn’t mean I lack love and only demonstrate hate toward you all as you swallow Satan’s poisons.”

    If we are swallowing “Satan’s poisons” because we believe God’s word, how do you comprehend Rom 11:32? “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.” And, that is just one of hundreds of scripture passages that reveal the love of God that is beyond our ability to comprehend.

    I pray that the eyes of your heart will be open, Lanny, to see beyond the wickedness of this world (that is under the curse of sin and death through no fault of its own) to see the ultimate purpose of God in Christ Jesus, who loved us and gave Himself for us.

    How can Jesus give up a single lamb and allow the devil to claim victory? I am thoroughly convinced by scripture alone that would be no gospel at all, but blasphemy against the Holy One. If only you could see how rich in love and mercy our victorious Savior of the world is.

    • Lanny A. Eichert May 30, 2013 at 6:03 pm

      Edy’s question “how can you be sure God saves anybody” is answered by the record of saints in the perfect literal Holy Bible. How can I be sure God saves only a few people and many people otherwise perish is answered by the record of everybody else in the same Holy Bible. Historically the Holy Bible covers at least four thousand years and only a remnant are saved. Remnant means a small portion of humanity. The record of the God of the Bible is miserable if His purpose was to save everybody, however since He purposed to save only a small select {the Elect} portion of humanity through the centuries, His record is perfect and He gets who He wants.

      In Romans 11:32 God’s mercy is upon ALL because otherwise He is within perfect justice to have destroyed everybody and saved nobody. {Matthew 5: 45} He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

      • Lanny A. Eichert May 30, 2013 at 10:42 pm

        From Matthew 5: 45 there are only two kinds of people: the evil and the just. There it is again, Alice, the lost and the saved; and Who is speaking those words and does He choose His words carefully in the entire context? Doesn’t the whole context prove two kinds of people will exist forever?

        • admin May 31, 2013 at 11:15 pm

          I’m continually astounded at how you can look at the scriptures and see what you see, while I look at the same scriptures and see something completely different.

          The way we are to treat others, even those who do evil toward us, is what it means to “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” The standard for love is God Himself. From these amazing, life-giving concepts, you somehow walk away with eternal hopelessness, as if God expects us to be better at loving others than He is. It makes no sense to me, Lanny.

          So to answer your questions – Yes, Jesus chooses His words carefully, and no, the whole context says nothing about two kinds of people (evil/just or saved/lost) existing forever. This is your own interpretation imposed on words that speak of life and love and the glory of God evidenced in the lives of those who deal with others as they see their Heavenly Father dealing with them.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 1, 2013 at 1:00 am

          Alice. the whole context says nothing about two kinds of people (evil/just or saved/lost) NOT existing forever, therefore they do exist forever.

          Look at the text of the whole chapter. The Beattitudes define a people group contrary to the world as the light of the world and salt of the earth with a righteousness that excedes that of the religious zealotes, because these people are the children of God their Father. There is not hint at all of them changing the world whether religious or otherwise, therefore the remaining population of the world dies in their sins doomed to eternal destruction and torment. You say the context says nothing about them existing forever, but it says nothing about any hope for the world, just the casting of their bodies into hell {20 – 22, 29, & 30} at the end of mortal life.

          Can’t you see the stage has been set in the whole chapter of just two kinds of people, one with hope and the other without hope, one saved and the other lost, one benevolent and the other selfish, bliss for one and damnation for the other. Can’t you see the stage shows only two destinies without any changes? So WHY say you “not forever” when there’s nothing in the context to indicate it is not FIXED forever?

          • admin June 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm

            Lanny, regarding your approach: “the whole context says nothing about two kinds of people (evil/just or saved/lost) NOT existing forever, therefore they do exist forever,” you are getting sloppy with your logic. The text also says nothing about two kinds of people turning into flying pigs. Using your logic, I could say, “therefore, they do turn into flying pigs.” As a student of the scriptures, your approach to the text is just plain silly.

            • Patrick Strickland June 2, 2013 at 12:39 pm

              Well Alice if we could torture and bully enough people to believe that they do turn into flying pigs then we could easily have the whole world believing that to be true. A little group pressure in the form of religious terrorism and fear goes a long way to encourage all dissenters to believe pigs fly. And before too long I am sure there will be reports of people seeing flying pigs, just so they can belong to our group.

              Oh wait the religious system of men has already done that with eternal torment.

              Love it such a better way then fear that there really is no comparison between the two.

              Grace and peace Patrick

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 2, 2013 at 7:14 pm

              Alice, no sillier than you’re saying the whole context says nothing about two kinds of people (evil/just or saved/lost) existing forever.

              The fact is the context stages two kinds of people without changes even suggested, therefore they exist forever. The context is more persuasive forever than not. You have nothing in the context to suggest it is not so forever. My logic is more persuasive than yours because of the Author of the context.

  • Edy T Johnson June 4, 2013 at 12:31 pm

    Lanny, you didn’t answer my question:
    “If that is the case, Lanny, then how can you be sure God saves anybody, in particular, how can you be sure YOUR own name is written in the Lamb’s Book of Life?”

    In particular – means I want to personalize the discussion. How can YOU be sure you are numbered among the saved? How have you crossed from evil/lost to righteous/found? Please explain.

    Until we understand the real answer to this question, we are in the dark on the subject of the so-called “eternal torment”…which is for those evil others (including babies), of course, certainly not for me!

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2013 at 1:25 am

      Edy’s question “how can you be sure God saves anybody” is answered … May 30, 2013 at 6:03 pm, but she wants it personalized. Perhaps you don’t remember reading Best Blog Comments of 2012 Posted 13th January 2013 by Alice. However that post was the immediate resultant change of being born again, not the accounting of the actual transaction by which I ceased to be a sinner and immediately became a saint. The simplicity of the transaction was that as a man sat next to me reading and showing me John 3: 16, a verse of Scripture I had committed to memory and even many times sung in song, but had never considered the “whosoever” to be specifically me while I knew it meant the world, yet it was impressed upon me at that specific moment as he read my name in place of the “whosoever” that #1 God is really a real person, #2 God loved little me enough to send Jesus, #3 Jesus loved me enough to die on the cross for my sins, #4 Jesus is God Who wants to be nothing less than my Lord/boss. I asked man what should I do. He read and showed me the Revelation 3: 20 and asked me if I wanted to pray? I said yes and then began to pray. I confessed I knew I was a sinner because I stole various things and lusted after Playboy pictures. I thanked Jesus for loving me and dying for my sins. I asked Jesus to come into my heart and be my Saviour, my Supervisor, my Commanding Officer in Charge, and my Non-Commanding Officer in Charge. The man then asked me where’s Jesus? I answered He is in my heart. He asked how do I know? I said because we just read in the Revelation 3: 20 that He was standing at my heart’s door waiting for my invitation, I asked Him to come in, He is God and cannot lie therefore He came into my heart. My salvation is based on Jesus’ words perfectly preserved word for word including the spelling of every word in the Holy Bible. Jesus is true to His every word as spelled in the perfect literal Holy Bible. That happened during a Saturday afternoon and I gave my first public testimony of its happening that evening and as I walked back to my barracks that night and saw the stars in the Denver sky I knew God put them there. Just hours prior to that transforming transaction I thought God was pure energy and He allowed some of His energy drift away to become the Creation. I had a radical shift in my whole thought process because of that transaction and for you to see that I reprint from Best Blog Comments:
      I became really ALIVE from the very day I was saved and born again, so much so that I couldn’t stop talking about it. I mean, even the stars in the sky were no longer just stars in space, but from that very moment they were “my God’s creation” and at that moment I knew I had a real God to look up to. He was no longer just the imagination of some people who really didn’t know what they were talking about. He really was and is God Who knows everything there is to know about me; and not just me, but about everybody and everything. Wow, and I just met Him that day, twenty-two years into my life, and now pushing seventy, I have never tired of such amazement that He should have “touched” me with the truth of His reality. A totally new world-view was now mine and it has never gone away. If He did that for me, just think how He wants to do that for you, too. Don’t loose the moment, but don’t stop until you “grasp the hem of His garment.”

      Edy asks from evil to righteous? It is a function of believing every word of God {Matthew 4: 4} and they are found nowhere but the perfect literal Holy Bible that teaches me that Jesus exchanged my evil with His righteousness charged/imputed to my account the moment I believed {2 Corinthians 5: 21}, which concludes her favorite reconciliation passage. Perfection is imputed the moment faith begins and that perfection is total because it is Jesus righteousness.

      I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. {Galatians 1: 6 – 9}

      The gospel preached on this site is another gospel; it certainly is not the Biblical Gospel, Edy, and you’d do well to escape it. My Jesus prophetically prayed {John 17: 12} Judas Iscariot is lost without remedy before he even died and gave John the Revelation closing with the Lake of Fire populated without remedy. He also told of many flowing through the broad gate unto destruction and few finding life.

      BTW the so-called “eternal torment” is that because Alice forces me to use her terminology to put all I say proving it in her negative connotation.

      • admin June 5, 2013 at 8:39 am

        “Alice forces me to use her terminology” = To maintain a sense of civility in the blog comment section, opposition and rebuttal should be about the subject under discussion and not the people engaging in discussion. In other words, no personal insults, no Internet bullying. This does not mean that I force commenters to reframe “all” that they write. People regularly write things I disagree with. I either leave it be or respond to the comment. The only time you’ll see “***” where I omitted something as admin is when someone writes something like (for example) “You are a stupid, demon-possessed freak…” instead of writing, “I disagree with what you said, and here’s why I disagree…” It’s just common courtesy.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2013 at 1:20 pm

          Alice, you forced me from eternal damnation and eternal condemnation to adopt your eternal torment. Your term expresses the personal experience resulting from my two terms and that’s how I had at first used your term before you bullied me into its exclusive use. Damnation and condemnation both result in torment, but D & C are emphasizing judgment and God’s rejection. You wanted my expression to illuminate my God as horribly mean to sadistly bring torment to the disobedient, whereas I wanted to express human torment as the NATURAL by-product of judgmental rejection. Torment is the HUMAN response rather than the God-inflicted sadistic punitive punishment you all cry against as not fitting the character of God as not willing that any should perish. Just to say God is not willing that any should perish indicates many do perish in that manner in which God would not have it, but His justice demands eternal punishment upon those disobedient to His Gospel. If God had intended Adam and Eve’s sins then He’d be even more unrighteous to eternally punish them and their offspring, but since He intended them to be eternally righteous, He is justified to eternally punitively punish them. The dark blackness of hot eternal divine fire is fitting punitive punishment for the disobedient that the all-wise God has determined. I agree with the God Who saved little old me at age twenty-two, while you all seem discontent with His decrees. Pity you.

          • admin June 6, 2013 at 12:48 am

            I don’t know what you’re talking about (forced and bullied). Quote me so I know what you refer to.

  • Edy T Johnson June 5, 2013 at 11:39 am

    Thank you for sharing your journey with Jesus, Lanny. How Jesus reached you and showed you that He has brought you out of death to life is your personal experience, because the Lord treats each of us as an individual. What He did and is doing in you, He is also at work doing for each of us, past, present, and future (whether we recognize it or not). And, He is certainly willing and able to accomplish His work in every heart so that none perish. That is not another gospel, but the heart of the Good News that Jesus finished at Calvary.

    Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure

    2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2013 at 3:20 pm

      Edy, don’t go getting blown away by what is personal into thinking all is well. It is another gospel here because it denys Jesus’ words about Judas Iscariot and the Lake of Fire. That cannot be ignored, but must be interpreted as being an entirely different Jesus of their own making. Salvation requires ONLY the true Jesus. It all depends on what the WHO you believe is. That is the point of Alice’s site, yet it has the wrong Jesus. The wrong Jesus means the wrong gospel. The wrong gospel results in eternal torment as the result of Divine Rejection of the soul.

      If you believe the wrong gospel presented on this site the day you physically die, you will suffer immediate Divine Rejection and be thrown into hell to burn forever when death and hell are thrown into the Lake of Fire. It will be so because you will have believed a false Christ. Satan makes false Christs appear all the time and the only way to know the True One is to evaluate Him according to the Biblical words He spoke and wrote as preserved in the perfect literal Holy Bible. He said Judas is lost and these folks don’t believe that’s what He meant. Their Jesus is a Liar, Edy, so don’t believe them.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 5, 2013 at 3:43 pm

      Edy, your “able to accomplish His work in every heart so that none perish” is totally wrong, amounting to another gospel because Jesus said {John 17: 12} prophetically in prayer to His Father that Judas Iscariot is perished and Judas hadn’t even physically died yet. He actually did die in unbelief and rebellion without ever finding repentance. Jesus’ 17: 12 words proves with perfect authority that persons perish and the gospel of Alice’s is totally false and built on her denial of eternal torment. Jesus is NOT ABLE to accomplish His work in the hearts of those who never come to repentance in this life. Repentance is required and when it is not forthcoming God quits working: He will not ALWAYS strive with man. God gives up on man and delivers him over to the devices of his own wickedness. See Romans 1, the last half of the chapter.

  • Edy T Johnson June 6, 2013 at 1:59 am

    In response, Lanny, I must conclude that the god you profess to believe in is too small to win the victory over sin and death that the Bible declares He has done. That, plus putting the burden of salvation on the frail human (God knows our frame, He remembers we are only dust), is the “another gospel,” because it is no good news at all. You insist on the old diabolical bad news that all is lost because we’re too stupid or too stubborn to choose the right answer. “O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you?” I won’t allow the devil to rob me of the joy of God’s grace and mercy!

    I’m just sorry that you aren’t able to see that what the Lord did for you and for me He has done for everyone. Remember, He is no respecter of persons and has consigned all to unbelief so that He may have mercy upon all.

    Besides that, my salvation is in no way dependent on whether or not I believe in “eternal torment” (where on earth did you get such an idea?). My salvation and yours was accomplished at Calvary over 2000 years ago, and we are able to add nothing to it. That’s my profession of God’s faithfulness.

    The Bible tells us that God alone is eternal. “Torment” is temporary affliction, relieved by the touch of the Master’s hand. “He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows…By His stripes we are healed.”

    It appears to me that your conclusions, based on a handful of scripture verses, blinds your eyes to the wealth of scripture passages that declare just the opposite. Perhaps you don’t realize that what you continue to claim is that the devil is the ultimate winner and Jesus is the loser.

    I flatly deny any such conclusion. The devil is a defeated foe; Christ Jesus is victorious.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm

      Edy, your salvation is in every way dependent on whether or not you believe in “eternal torment” because Jesus prophetically prayed {John 17: 12} reporting to God that Judas Iscariot was lost using the Aorist Tense Middle Voice to tell you it was emphatically done and over for Judas. When you dispute Jesus on Judas, you make Him a Liar. Therefore your Jesus upon which you base your salvation is a false Jesus and you have NO salvation. It is just that simple, dear girl.

      • Edy T Johnson June 7, 2013 at 5:06 pm

        Jhn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.

        My dispute is not with Jesus, who is the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life. Rather, it is with your conclusions. Obviously Judas was finished with the life of this world (the wages of sin is death). Beyond that, God’s grace abounds and we have no authority to pronounce final judgment on anyone.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 8, 2013 at 3:02 am

          Edy, Jesus pronounced final judgment upon Judas Iscariot before he even died. How’s that for being the TRUTH?

          Your refusal to believe that calls the Biblical Jesus a Liar and makes your Jesus a fraud. Frauds cannot save anybody.

          You are arguing about Jesus’ pronouncement of Judas’ lost/perished state to imply He meant something other than He stated because you added grace abounds. Jesus didn’t go there, but left him lost without remedy. You need to leave him lost without remedy as Jesus did or you elevate your knowledge above Christ’s. The fact that Jesus makes such a statement BEFORE Judas died should give every reader the assurance Jesus knows the entire future and that He is rightly called the Alpha and the Omega. Jesus knew the beginning and the end of Judas Iscariot and He lets us know that by our listening to His prayer.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 6, 2013 at 4:37 pm

      Edy, be careful that what you read in the Holy Bible is mostly for and about saints, not sinners. You typically apply believer’s passages universally to believe everybody will be saved. The “promises” are ONLY made to and for God’s saints, and sinners are excluded. Consider reality, dear Edy, how that >90% have had no Christian affiliation over the past six thousand years. That should prove to you God let them die and go to hell forever lost, just like Judas Iscariot. Conclude correctly that God has a chosen few that He intends to save and nobody else. To only them Satan is defeated, but not to everybody else. Wake up and read the Bible correctly or go to hell: that’s the only choices you have.

      • Edy T Johnson June 7, 2013 at 5:18 pm

        If sinners are excluded, then all of us are doomed. Jesus came into the world to save sinners; the sick of this world. The healthy have no need of a Physician, Jesus said so Himself.

        As I’ve mentioned, before, Jesus’ disciples were chosen for a purpose. Likewise, we are chosen to be Christ’s body in the world “greater things will you do, because I go to the Father.” Just because a person is firstborn doesn’t mean he is an only child. Jesus died for all, firstborn to last born.

        Sadly, you continue to paint a picture of a world in which the devil wins and the Creator of the universe is a pathetic failure. You aren’t the first person I’ve heard make the claim that the Bible is mostly for saints and believers. I wonder where that exclusive teaching arose. It certainly misses the whole point, as it harkens back to the exclusionist ideas of the Pharisees.

        And, you might note Jesus’ harsh words were for them, not for the common people under their criticism. Rather, He endured the wrath of the religious leadership because He associated with the harlots and drunkards and didn’t live by the rules of the elite.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 8, 2013 at 9:27 am

          Edy, the picture you paint is that of a god who saves everybody yet has failed to convince >90% of those who have died over the last six thousand years. Do you call <10% everybody? There is no salvation after physical death, don't you know that? Nobody physically dead is preached the Gospel and gets saved. Nobody in the Holy Bible. Nobody since. Nobody's been resurrected other than Christ in two thousand years, Alice.

        • Patrick Strickland June 8, 2013 at 1:53 pm

          I would agree with you Edy… We all would be in great trouble if he did not save sinners.

          If Jesus only saves believers then that makes salvation a work of our own flesh…we have to believe to be saved. but I see we believe because we finally see the truth that we have been saved, therefore we believe this makes it totally a work of God and not a work of our flesh. If our salvation relies on our ability to believe, if we lose our faith then according to religion we can lose our salvation. Religion makes salvation totally reliant on us and not on God. Talk about having salvation backwards.

          Salvation is a gift of God.

          Rom 5:15-21 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. (16) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. (17) For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (19) For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

          Eph 2:4-22 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (11) Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; (12) That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: (13) But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. (18) For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. (19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; (20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; (21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: (22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

          And what God has begun in us it is his responsibility to finish.

          2Co 8:6-12 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also. (7) Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also. (8) I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love. (9) For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (10) And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago. (11) Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have. (12) For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

          This is a true and trustworthy, and faithful saying God is the savior of all men especially those that believe, scripture does not say that he is NOT the savior of all men but only those that believe.

          1Ti 4:9-11 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.

          Grace and peace Patrick

          • Lanny A. Eichert June 10, 2013 at 12:37 am

            Patrick runs wild with his own interpretation which is disputed by grace are ye saved through faith, THROUGH FAITH, while he plays on it is the gift of God to negate through faith. He also fails to understand much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness, THEY WHICH RECEIVE, requires receiving which in John 1: 12 is equated with believing: it is receiving and believing the Word made flesh, Jesus Christ Who pronounced Judas Iscariot lost without remedy {John 17: 12}, hence the doctrine of eternal torment, without which you cannot be saved, because you’d have the wrong Jesus.

            Sorry Edy and Patrick, salvation still requires human faith which all have not {2 Thessalonians 3:2} proving God saves only His Elect, not everybody.

            • Patrick Strickland June 15, 2013 at 6:23 pm

              Lanny you are absolutely right salvation relies upon faith. Not everyone has faith right now. Because simply put faith comes by hearing and hearing through that which is being spoken as a word of God.

              So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
              (Rom 10:17 KJV)

              Now the word “word” is the greek word rhema and means:

              1. THAT WHICH IS OF HAS BEEN UTTERED BY THE LIVING VOICE, thing spoken, word
              a. any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
              b. speech, discourse
              1. what one has said
              c. a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one’s mind made in words)
              1. an utterance
              2. a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative 1c
              d. concerning some occurrence
              2. subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
              a. so far forth as it is a matter of narration
              b. so far as it is a matter of command
              c. a matter of dispute, case at law

              The word of God is that which is being uttered and proceeding forth out of his mouth right now. The dead letter written upon a page must become spirit and life to us and the only way it can is for God to speak to us and show us what He actually meant by what he had written. Jesus never claimed that the words he spoke were literal but he clearly said the words I speak are spirit and they are life. There is coming a time when all men everywhere are going to hear his voice and they are going to be raised up out of their graves. They are going to hear Him speak and they are going to have faith and they will be saved because of the faith they have from hearing His voice Now the word saved means to be healed, and made whole, and to deliver.

              i Tim 4:We trust upon a living God WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN , ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT BELIEVE. Paul did not say he is only the Savior of just those who believe. This verse alone makes your claim suspect as nothing more then the doctrine of men and not a word that has proceeded out of the mouth of God, a word that Paul clearly said was ” a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.”

              Ask most baptists or any denomination you want if they have heard the voice of God for themselves and they will answer no they have not. If faith comes by hearing and hearing by an utterance proceeding out of his mouth is it any wonder that the world has no faith since the very church does not have any faith. Now they have a watered down meaning for the word faith where they have a set of doctrines they claim are true and this becomes the baptist faith the church of God faith the church of Christ faith but it is not the faith that comes from hearing the voice of the son speaking in you and raising you up out of the grave of your sin.

              God clearly has said that ALL that are in the grave are going to hear his voice and they are all going to be raised, out of their grave. When you really take a close look we don’t have any faith except what he gives to us. His faith becomes our faith.

              I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
              (Gal 2:20 KJV)

              It does not matter if you or anyone does not believe what I am sharing, scripture is clear that your doubt and unbelief will not make void the faith of God.

              For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
              (Rom 3:3-4 KJV)

              God has declared that if we pray anything according to his will then he will hear us and we shall have exactly what we prayed for.

              And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
              (1Jn 5:14-15 KJV)

              Now it is crystal clear from scripture that God’s will is to save all men. Now if we pray His will then we are guaranteed an answer to our prayer. Plain and simple.

              I exhort therefore, that, FIRST OF ALL, SUPPLICATIONS, PRAYERS, INTERSESSIONS, AND GIVING OF THANKS, BE MADE FOR ALL MEN; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. I WILL THEREFORE THAT MEN PRAY EVERYWHERE, LIFTING UP HOLY HANDS, WITHOUT WRATH AND DOUBTING.
              (1Ti 2:1-8 KJV)

              My faith has come because I heard him speaking in me and I am guaranteed an answer. If he does not fulfill his promised will then there is absolutely nothing you can pray for and expect an answer FROM HIM; IF HE CAN’T BE TRUSTED TO KEEP HIS PROMISE THEN HE IS NOT A GOD WHO IS WORTHY OF OUR LOVE AND WORSHIP.

              I have his faith in me praying His Father’s will for all men to be saved and come unto the truth. I absolutely have no doubt whatsoever , yet you continue to give reason after reason why you can’t believe God to answer what he has promised to us to give unto all of us.

              Maybe one day it will hit you why I have a greater faith in God and His ability to do the impossible then you do.

              Grace and Peace Patrick

              • Edy T Johnson June 17, 2013 at 5:54 pm

                Patrick, I’m grateful for the Scripture selections you’ve added to the discussion. God’s Word abounds exceedingly with the Good News! Somewhere I came upon this quote, with no idea where it originated: “The Gospel is such good news, even Christians don’t believe it!” It is just so good.

                • Lanny A. Eichert June 18, 2013 at 2:38 pm

                  Edy, you’re grateful to people who misuse Scripture to promote Satan’s lie: Ye shall not surely die {Genesis 3: 4}. Patrick and Alice avoid the rest of the story, even the very next verse. They selectively use the texts deceitfully, even redefining words contrary to context.

                  as many, which corrupt the word of God {2 Corinthians 2: 17}

                  Just look below {June 17, 2013 at 1:06 am} that I call Patrick for using John 5: 28 without verse 29.

                  • Edy T Johnson June 18, 2013 at 7:56 pm

                    Lanny, aren’t you the one who has been claiming that the soul doesn’t die? While I have quoted several times “the soul that sins dies!”

                    That is why I can report with confidence that eternal torment is impossible. We die, corruptible; we are raised from the dead incorruptible; no intermediate “existence” in the grave/sheol/hell/Hades/Gehenna. The grave/pit/sheol/hell/etc., is only where our body returns to dust.

                    Our soul is not *reincarnated* into some asbestos body. The soul dies.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 13, 2013 at 6:49 pm

                      “You don’t believe healing is by sovereign grace alone?”

                      For by grace are you saved (deliever, healed, made whole) through faith…Not without faith, but through faith!!! And faith comes by hearing and hearing by a word (spoken out of the mouth) of God or of Christ depending upon which version you read.

                      Now if the blind man’s healing was only by the sovereign grace then their would have been no need for Jesus to bend down and make mud then tell the man to go and wash at the pool of Siloam. All he had to do was say you are healed. But he told the man to go wash at a specific pool in Jerusalem and when the man obeyed he came away healed. Faith comes by hearing. now did he hear Jesus say something to him? obviously yes. this is not straining to prove a point but is an illustration that both had faith. Now you can try to prove that he did not have faith all you want but the principle of faith is clear to me if it is not to you.

                      Now I never said the blind man had to have faith in order to be healed. But it is clear that Jesus did have faith in every healing he did, because he heard his Father tell him every word he spoke. And every man was healed through Jesus faith or a combination and their own faith and Jesus faith. But the blind man did hear Jesus tell him to go and wash in the pool of Siloam and when he obeyed Jesus he came away healed. Remember faith comes by hearing. and he did hear Jesus tell him to go wash in the pool of siloam. The principle of faith is there for all to see if you actually have eyes to see with. Now I am not speaking of your natural eyes dear sir, but the eyes of the spirit. The bible does not have to say he had faith in order to prove he had faith all you have to find is where the principle of faith comes into operation in any particular healing.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2013 at 2:32 am

                      Patrick, in response to Patrick Strickland says: July 13, 2013 at 6:49 pm

                      Your point on healing was the faith of the one healed had to be present before healing can occur. NOW you resort to a vague “principle” of faith, whether Christ’s or ours, doesn’t matter. You’re dodging. You SAID we aren’t healed because of a lack of our faith. I called to witness Jesus’ miracles did not always require the person to believe before Jesus healed them. Now you’re looking for ANY evidence of ANY faith in operation.

                  • Patrick Strickland June 20, 2013 at 6:51 pm

                    Hi Lanny thanks for your opinion, but as you know I believe that all judgment verses are going to be fulfilled and all salvation of all passages are going to be fulfilled. ALL scripture must be fulfilled as He sent it to do, not how our denominational beliefs say they must be fulfilled. It does not matter what you or I believe only what he sent His word to do. That is all that matters to God and that word shall not return to him void but it shall accomplish just what He sent it to do.

                    Your are free to believe that I am ignoring the context but the simple truth is I am not. You can believe that or you can choose not to. It does not matter to me we have dealt with the subject in depth before.

                    You have yet to deal with the issue of faith and prayer without doubting, and why I can pray for all men to be saved and Why you cannot. So far all I have seen are many reasons and excuses from you why you cannot pray for all men to be saved as God asked you to do in his scripture.

                    Remember dear sir Jesus said that all things are possible to him that believes.

                    Mar 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

                    Jesus only established one kind of judgment and that was healing -making whole all those that were in need of being made whole.

                    Mat 12:15-22 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and HE HEALED THEM ALL; (16) And charged them that they should not make him known: (17) THAT IT MIGHT BE FULFILLED WHICH WAS SPOKEN BY ESAIAS THE PROPHET, saying, (18) Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. (19) He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. (20) A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send FORTH JUDGMENT TO VICTORY. (21) And in his name shall the Gentiles trust. (22) Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

                    By healing what was needing to be made whole Jesus fulfilled the scripture and brought judgment unto victory and the old testament quote actually says judgment to truth. Isa 42:1-4 Now in the old testament there is a strong connection between faith and truth they are from the same set of words.

                    Truth comes from emeth and means:
                    1. firmness, faithfulness, truth
                    a. sureness, reliability
                    b. stability, continuance
                    c. faithfulness, reliableness
                    d. truth
                    1. as spoken
                    2. of testimony and judgment
                    3. of divine instruction
                    4. truth as a body of ethical or religious knowledge
                    5. true doctrine adv
                    2. in truth, truly
                    from H539
                    translated as truth, faithful, true

                    Faith comes from emunah and means:

                    1. firmness, fidelity, steadfastness, steadiness
                    comes from H529 and h529 comes from h539.

                    Translated as faith, truth, faithfulness

                    The judgment that Jesus established was a judgment unto victory, truth and faith. God is going to remove from each individual all that does not let them be whole in him and is going to heal all and bring them into truth and faith. How do we cast fire upon our enemies heads by doing good to them. This is exactly how God is going to burn up His enemies by doing good to them and casting coals of fire upon their heads burning up the stinking thinking that they hold unto.

                    I can quote the TWOT or the Ancient Hebrew workbook if you like to prove that point. Truth and faith are closely related. Scripturally they are the same.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2013 at 4:42 pm

                      Patrick: HE HEALED THEM ALL

                      Only those present at that time and place.

                      Have you ever had a physical ailment of any kind? See. He hasn’t healed them all. You are proof.

                      Again you violate the context. Your doctrine is proven false. Eternal torment reigns.

                    • Patrick Strickland June 24, 2013 at 5:45 pm

                      Dear Lanny scripture clearly declares

                      But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
                      (Isa 53:5-12 KJV)

                      Just because you or I do not manifest the healing Jesus paid for all men at the cross does in no way prove God is a god of eternal torment. No!!! a thousand times no!!!! Sickness in any form that remains in any man only shows we do not believe His word. And that we are repudiating Him in our unbelief. Sickness remaining in any ones flesh shows we do not have faith in what he has given to all men that he died for.

                      You do know that for some one claiming to believe the literal word of god that if you are sick in any form that you really do not believe the literal word of God.

                      Now from my experience I have seen many including my own self quote that scripture that by his stripes I am healed, and have never seen a healing take place. I have seen people quote that scripture for years and never get healed, and even seen a few die never getting healed yet confessing by his stripes i am healed. Yet every time I waited on the Lord and heard Him speak concerning a healing I always got healed from whatever he spoke concerning.

                      You see Lanny there is a vast difference in just reading a scripture and mentally agreeing that it is true and actually experiencing the reality behind that verse.

                      If a man was stranded in a desert and ran out of water and after three days came upon oasis with a man guarding the water. Do you think he would be happy if the following conversation took place?

                      “I beg of you Please give me a cold cup of water?”
                      And the guard said “No problem. Just give me a moment… ” He then reaches into the bosom of His robes and extracts a post it note and a pen and writes A CUP OF COLD WATER. And hands the note to the thirsty man, and says “here you go …One cup of cold water.”

                      Letters written on a page are not the reality that they describe dear sir. a note with a cup of cold water is not the reality of a cup of cold water, if you truly think it is then try drinking a note. Do you think it will satisfy you?

                      Healing is the children’s bread, and it is the judgment that Jesus established. Now this judgment is available to you and everyone who hears his voice right now in fact the very word saved guarantees it.

                      The word saved comes from the word sozo and means:

                      Strong’s: From a primary word σῶς sōs̄(contraction for the obsolete σάος saos safe); to save that is deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): – heal preserve save (self) do well be (make) whole.

                      Sozo is translated as healed, save, saved, make whole

                      Being saved is not a one time affair where you confess your sins and ask for forgiveness and for him to come into your heart. No it is a continuous process that must go on in each of us every day we need to be saved from something be it sickness, disease, mental illness, emotional troubles, our old man, sin, financial troubles, enemies of all kinds oppressing us we need to be made whole in our bodies souls and in our spirits. and till we are made completely whole then we each of us are still in need of being saved. He must rise up in His temple which you are and He will drive out all of Your enemies when he is seen in you. that Old man in you who is the wicked will perish at his appearing in His temple which you are. If all you have is just a one time say Jesus is Lord and you are saved then the reality is you only have a form of godliness but you are denying the power there of. The reality is that God wants to make you whole in every area of your life. And he wants to make every man whole since every man was made in his image and he bore all men’s sins and transgressions at the cross. God must arise in us his temple and only when he does will his enemies be driven and destroyed from out of our lives

                      To the chief Musician, A Psalm or Song of David. Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
                      (Psa 68:1-2 KJV)

                      I am not the same person I was yesterday but then again I am not the man I am going to be in him tomorrow. Every day brings a new area and a new opportunity for Him to manifest His salvation in this vessel that I am. and every day he has an opportunity for His salvation to become manifest towards others through His love that is in us. Salvation is much deeper then you have ever realized, and more is available to you then you have ever dreamed. One day God will even bring you to the place where sickness will never affect you ever again in this life, if your faith can hear him speak to you and tell you that fact. without hearing Him then there is no way you will have faith to be saved from all that oppresses you now.

                      but I digress since we were dealing with the judgment of a MAN AFTER THEY ARE RAISED FROM THE DEAD. SOME WILL IMMEDIATELY ENTER INTO ETERNAL LIFE, BECAUSE THEY HAVE HEARD HIM AND HAVE BELIEVED IN THEIR LIFE ON THIS EARTH OTHERS ARE GOING TO BE RAISED INTO his RESURRECTION OF JUDGMENT, AND THE ONLY JUDGMENT HE EVER ESTABLISHED IS HEALING. He is going to pour out good upon their heads and this will be the burning fire that they will experience. They are expecting burning in hell and the lake of fire forever but God is going to burn off them all that offends him and he is going to bring all his children through the fire so that they may be made whole… saved.

                      Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
                      (1Co 3:13-15 KJV)

                      This fire is not just going to affect just those who are believer as you have previously claimed but this fire will affect every man whose knee bow and every tongue which covenant swears that in him they have righteousness and strength that is all men Now you know this is a sworn word and shall be accomplished. Every man’s work is going to be tried by fire.

                      For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
                      (Rom 14:9-12 KJV)

                      In context you are right but God put all scripture in the bible to let us know what is available to all that follow Christ Jesus There is more going on then just what you are trying to limit it to in just the context. The judgment he established back then is the same judgment that all men are going to face. Christ is the same yesterday today and forever. He died for all men and all men are going to be partakers of what he did two thousand years ago. You or I can partake of His healing powers right now if you can simply humble yourself and hear his voice and harden not your heart. and through the faith he gives to you by hearing His voice speak then you will begin to walk in divine health if you have ears to hear what the spirit is saying.

                      And that is the key I have been trying to get you to understand you must have ears to hear what the spirit is saying, and not just what you think the scripture says. if you can’t hear the spirit speaking to you then you need to do what ever it takes to get to the place where you can hear him. If you need to fast and pray ask and seek till he answers. But don’t let the salvation God has provided for the whole man only be put off for sometime far in the future after you die. All things are possible to him that believes dear sir.

                      Let God Arise in you dear sir

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 25, 2013 at 2:19 am

                      Patrick, you make faith necessary for healing rather than the pure grace of God. The man born blind in John 9 was not required to first have faith. Jesus healed others without first requiring them to believe Him. Why? To prove you all wrong, dear Patrick.

                      What happened to Ephesians 2: 8 & 9, Patrick, do you now flip-flop? Isn’t verse 10 a reality? Paul had “a thorn in the flesh” he had to bare all his life. Was God’s answer to him that it is because he did “not have faith in what {God} has given to all men that he died for?” Or was it that God’s grace is sufficient?

                    • Patrick Strickland June 26, 2013 at 1:45 pm

                      Are you absolutely sure that you cannot see the principle of faith in John 9 at all? I can see the principle of faith clearly in that passage concerning the healing of the blind man. The principle of faith is what I have previously discussed faith comes by hearing and hearing through a word of God or a message that is proceeding out of the mouth of God.

                      Now let us consider Jesus for just one moment in that story He clearly stated Joh 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me,

                      Which links up to the following verses:

                      Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
                      (Joh 8:28-29 KJV)

                      For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
                      (Joh 12:49-50 KJV)

                      Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
                      (Joh 5:19)

                      Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak to you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth into me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father.
                      (Joh 14:9-12)

                      As these verses and many others attest to Jesus only spoke what the Father told him to say, and he only did what he saw his Father doing. Faith comes by hearing and hearing comes by that which the father speaks. Jesus had faith because he only said and did what he heard his Father say and what he saw His Father doing. There is not one thing that Jesus did in the new testament gospel accounts that did not qualify as an act of faith, which followed the principle of faith described by Paul in Romans. In fact the author of Hebrews declares that Jesus is the chief leader and example of our faith. You will never know it by just reading the kjv the Amplified version of Hebrew 12:2 reads

                      2 Looking away [from all that will distract] to Jesus, Who is the Leader and the Source of our faith [giving the first incentive for our belief] and is also its Finisher [bringing it to maturity and perfection]. He, for the joy [of obtaining the prize] that was set before Him, endured the cross, despising and ignoring the shame, and is now seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

                      The word “author” in the KJV and “Leader and the Source” in the Amplified is the word Archegos in the original Greek – Phonetic: ar-khay-gos’ And is defined as
                      1. the chief leader, prince
                      a. of christ
                      2. one that takes the lead in any thing and thus affords an example, a predecessor in a matter, pioneer
                      3. the author

                      Jesus is the pioneer and forerunner and our example of faith in action. And “As HE IS SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD”. We must follow His example, and we must learn to listen to the Father. This should not be hard since we have been given the mind of Christ. He is the standard we must live by. If we don’t then we are out of order, and should not expect anything from God.

                      Scripture also declares that without faith it is impossible to please God Heb 11:6, and the Father clearly said concerning Jesus “this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased”. Matt 3:17, 17:5; Mark 1:11. Jesus’ faith made him well pleasing to the Father.

                      Now since we have established that Jesus lived by the principle of faith at all time let us turn to the blind man for a moment.

                      Remember faith comes by hearing and hearing by a word of God but there are many translations that differ and say “…and hearing by a word of Christ. The American Standard Version, Bible in Basic English, Concordant literal version, and The Contemporary English Version to name a few. Christ simply means the anointing. A annointed word spoken by Christ can produce faith. An anointed word that is spoken by the anointing (Christ) in you can produce faith. The blind man after Jesus Christ made clay and put it on his eyes heard Christ Jesus say “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam,” and because he heard Christ say that God wanted to work in him verse 3; Faith came into his life: therefore because he had faith he went and washed in the pool of Siloam and for the first time in his life he could see! Hearing the word of Christ and obedience to that word produced the healing of his eyes.

                      The word faith does not have to show up in the account if you can understand how faith comes…which is through hearing a word proceeding forth from the mouth of God or of Christ. When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness he said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that prodeedeth out of the mouth of God. The principle can be clearly seen in both Christ and in the blind man. Both were operating in faith. The principle always operated in Christ’s life because he always listened to the Father and spoke what he was saying. And the principle of faith operated in the blind man because he heard Christ speaking what the Father told him. Faith came when he heard, believed and did what Jesus told him to do, and he was healed.

                      As far as Ephesians 2:8,9 what are you talking about the verse clearly declares we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. You may have been given the gift of grace that saves but you cannot access it without the operation of the principle of hearing God speak which causes faith to be produced in your life. We have access into the grace we have been given through faith. Rom 5:2 Here are a few verses that deal with the relationship between faith and grace.

                      Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: through whom we have received grace and apostleship, for attentive hearkening and obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
                      (Rom 1:3-5)
                      On account of this it is out of faith, in order that it might be by grace; to the end the promise may be sure to every child of faithful Abraham, Jew and Gentile alike; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
                      (Rom 4:16 EWB-CB)
                      By Whom … we have obtained access also by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
                      (Rom 5:2 EWB-CB)

                      If you can manifest your salvation, your healing and being made whole by grace alone without the principle of faith operating in your life then you have accomplished something truly amazing… since we only have access into the grace we stand in through the hearing of faith.

                      This only desire I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit [the new nature] by works of law, or by hearing of faith? Are ye so senseless ? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now being perfected in the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore That ministereth to you the Spirit [the new Nature], and worketh miracles among you, doeth He it by works of law, or by hearing of faith?
                      (Gal 3:2-5 EWB-CB)

                      Salvation is a gift of God for everyone and God has given this gift to every man woman and child ever born. But they must hear a word proceeding out of the mouth of God in order for them to have faith whereby they have access into the gift that is freely given to all and which cannot be removed because the gifts of God are without repentance and irrevocable. He is not going to take away what he has freely given to all but he will do all in his power to ensure in his timing that all men will partake of the gift given to them. It does not matter if they die and never hear his voice and have faith. Scripture declares that they will hear the word of the Lord and will be raised up at that time. God will then try every mans work by fire and will burn up all that is wood hay or stubble and many will suffer great loss but they will be made whole – healed- saved as by fire. What a gospel of good news to all men. God is responsible for giving us everything we need to please him. All we have to do is hear and obey what he speaks to us and receive what he has promised.

                      Lanny not only is the principle of faith in john 9 but scripture clearly declares it as a truth you simply refuse to believe. Jesus is our example and the pattern for how we as Christians should live our lives. Any area in our lives that do not line up will be subject to his judgment. And Jesus knows how to bring about the circumstances in our lives where we will begin to cry out to him to deliver us from our troubles.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert June 26, 2013 at 10:52 pm

                      Patrick said because he heard Christ say that God wanted to work in him verse 3; Faith came into his life.

                      Dear fellow verse 3 was Jesus privately speaking to His disciples and you want to make it the basis of the blind man’s faith? Jesus never asked the blind man if he had the faith to be healed which is your point on healing: we are not healed because we don’t have the faith to be healed.

                      Do you really think the blind man was saved at verse 3 from his sins? He wasn’t healed until he washed, verse 7. He wasn’t saved until he confessed Christ in verse 38.

                      What do you think, Patrick? Can a person be healed before he’s saved?

                    • Patrick Strickland June 30, 2013 at 3:04 pm

                      Lanny you have not been around very many blind folk have you? Because of the loss of sight all the other senses become greater then normal, and Their ability to hear is greater then you think and since Jesus was standing there with His disciples next to the blind man he heard everything they said. In fact verse one says that as he passed by he noticed the blind man. then his disciple started to ask him, I believe he stopped right then next to the blind man and Jesus answered them. But when he finished the bible did not say he walked up to the blind man and then spit in the dust of the earth: no scripture declares in verse 6 that he just spit and made clay and then put the clay on the blind’s mans eyes. Then he instructed the blind man on what to do to get sight. Jesus was standing right next to the blind man when he was talking in verse three and the blind man heard every word he spoke about him.

                      Now Lanny did the the blind man got healed or did he not get healed? He obviously was healed.

                      Healed is part of the definition of sozo where we get the word saved. So absolutely the blind man heard Jesus Christ speak and received faith to get healed and more important he went where Jesus told him to go wash and he came away healed. If he did not have faith (and faith is defined as persuasion, conviction of the truth, truth itself) and was not persuaded then he would never have went and washed at the pool of Siloam and came away healed If he did not have faith and obey what Jesus told him to do then he would have remained blind.

                      Faith comes by hearing and hearing by a word spoken by God or Christ. That is scripture buddy, and you can take it to the bank.

                      Your are free to believe that the blind man did not have faith but I can point out the principle of faith in action in his life. As far as I am concerned he had faith because he heard Jesus speak what he heard his father tell him to speak and do.

                      Lanny has asked:
                      “Do you really think the blind man was saved at verse 3 from his sins? He wasn’t healed until he washed, verse 7. He wasn’t saved until he confessed Christ in verse 38.

                      What do you think, Patrick? Can a person be healed before he’s saved?”

                      Well obviously he was healed long before he confessed Jesus So to answer your last question yes absolutely any man can be healed long before they confess Jesus. Healing and being saved are just two sides of the same coin. Healing and salvation was bought and paid for at the cross of Christ, and because Christ died for all then all died. His healing and salvation is for all mankind. And both are available to all men as a free gift of grace.

                      In fact there are many stories of healing taking place on the missionary field before the man has ever confessed Jesus Christ as Lord. I am sure you can find many modern stories from men like T.L. Osborn John G Lake, Smith Wigglesworth etc. that would verify that fact.

                      God is out to make every man he created in his image whole (sozo) in him: Physically mentally, emotionally, and spiritually He is after making a whole man well – healed and delivered from all enemies. He is going to do whatever it takes to bring that salvation into a living reality in every mans life, no matter how long it may take. That is what salvation is all about. But I know you don’t agree. and that is OK.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 1, 2013 at 12:46 am

                      Patrick: I believe he stopped
                      That’s not good enough to prove other than verse one says that as he passed. I’m quoting your words that Jesus had already passed him and it is more likely He is farther passed than standing there with His disciples next to the blind man. Passed is past tense. Don’t you see the “ed?”

                    • Patrick Strickland July 6, 2013 at 1:37 pm

                      Then why does the bible not say he walked back and then spit and made clay? Scripture only says that he spit and made clay and anointed his eyes, then told him to go and wash at the pool of Siloam.

                      I work in an ER and am always passing by and hearing conversations going on as I pass by. Now I know that I can still hear a conversation at normal speaking voice from about ten feet away between two people, and depending on the person speaking even fifteen feet away I can clearly make out what they are saying. When someone is speaking to a crowd of people as Jesus was he was speaking loud enough to be heard by all of his disciples over the noise of the crowd. So for a blind man to hear what they said is really no stretch of the imagination since they were still close enough to see Him. Jesus could easily have been twenty feet away and the blind man could have heard him.

                      Now they were in the crowded entrance of the Temple and in context Jesus had just passed by the entrance of the temple after passing by all the men in the temple who wanted him dead read chapter 8 through 10 without stopping at the end of each chapter to get the full context of just one day in the life of Jesus. Could the passed by be referring back to chapter 8:59 and not the blind man? Absolutely!!! I believe so because of the conjunction “and” at the beginning of the verse connecting who the context was really talking about from the end of the previous chapter.

                      Joh 8:59-9:1 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, AND SO PASSED BY. (9:1) AND AS JESUS PASSED BY, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.

                      Jesus did not pass by the blind man. He passed by the men trying to stone him and went out of the temple and saw a man born blind.

                      So the principle still stands when we hear Christ speak and we obey him faith comes and then whatever he spoke as we obey him comes to pass.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2013 at 3:31 am

                      Patrick, you try to strain into the narrative something that’s not there: Jesus did not require the blind man to have/acknowledge/confess faith before He healed him. Your point is that faith is required before healing can be accomplished by God. Jesus never made that a consistent point in all of His miracles. There is nothing in John 9 to confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that the blind man was a Jesus believer before he was healed, while he amply testified of his faith after he was healed. The text evidences his faith after healing, but not before it; and certainly whether or not he had faith was NOT an issue regarding whether or not Jesus would heal him. Purely God’s sovereignity is displayed for the man’s life, presence, and condition.

                      You don’t believe healing is by sovereign grace alone?

                • Patrick Strickland June 20, 2013 at 6:11 pm

                  The original writer of that quote was so right the good news is just too good to believe for many who are believers in Christ.

                  Thank God He will have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. and in his timing all will come to what God considers to be truth, or that which the Hebrew literally says “to be firm”. His truth is a firm foundation for us to stand on, and only coming to the place where we can hear him tell us what His truth is can we be firm in our stance on the word of God. Each of us must hear Him for ourselves. Each of us must let him heal our spiritual ears so we can hear just what the spirit is saying in these days.

                  As you know just listening to men teach us their denominations opinion of what they think is truth can lead us away from His truth.

                  I have enjoyed reading many of your responses on this thread

                  Grace and peace Patrick

            • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2013 at 1:06 am

              Dear Patrick, There is coming a time when all men everywhere are going to hear his voice and they are going to be raised up out of their graves.

              And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. {John 5: 29}

              That’s the text which you reference and the immediate result of hearing His voice for most of humanity is their resurrection of damnation, or better still, judgment unto condemnation. Most persons, when they hear His voice, will immediately stand empty in space before the Great White Throne in their Final Judgment to be thrown into the Lake of Fire for the sins and unbelief.

              Patrick, why do you deviate from 28’s next verse {29} with your imported interpretation from Romans 10: 17? Or why do you fragment 28 & 29 to press 28 into Romans 10: 17?

              Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. {John 5: 37 & 38} for Whom He hath sent, Him ye believe not that He prophetically announced by the Holy Spirit to God His Father that Judas Iscariot was perished for our information {John 17: 12}.

              Patrick, you have misused Scripture, using only part of the text, only the part that serves your purpose, and ignored the part that proves you wrong. Then for your proof, you say you’re hearing God’s spoken words while you’re disbelieving what He has said elsewhere.

  • Edy T Johnson June 7, 2013 at 2:13 am

    God’s Word of redemption is obviously falling on deaf ears.

    Isa 53:4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. 6 ALL we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned EVERY ONE to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us ALL.

    Hbr 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.

    Thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 8, 2013 at 3:13 am

      Edy, there are many deaf ears on this site refusing to believe Jesus prophetically pronounced Judas Iscariot before he even died lost/perished without remedy because He is the Alpha and the Omega. Since He knew the beginning and the end of Judas He made no reference to a remedy, leaving Judas plainly perished.

      I’m telling all you deaf ears that everything reconciles Biblically when you know God saves ONLY His Elect and nobody else. Until you do your gospel and your christ are false and you have no salvation.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 9, 2013 at 6:28 pm

    All readers and Alice, if you’re going to believe Jesus is truly God, then for Jesus’ sake believe He deliberately prophetically prayed announcing Judas Iscariot was lost WITHOUT REMEDY. He made that announcement PROPHETICALLY and without remedy. Can’t you understand His prophetic statement is without remedy because He knew Judas frontward and backward and was so telling us in getting His prayer quoted by the Gospel writer under the inspiration of His Holy Spirit. Therefore you have the witness of both the Son of God and the Holy Spirit of God, plus the prefect receiving by God the Father of this announcement without His addition of any remedy. The entire Trinity witnesses the finality of the lostness of Judas Iscariot. How more emphatic can God get than to say, “none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.” {John 17: 12}

    So where does that leave you who hope to believe God saves everybody? It leaves you with a false faith because at lease one person out of everybody is not saved but lost; and if one then many. Yes, since God testifies of one lost, then many are lost and your doctrine of universal salvation is proven false just because Judas is lost, perished, burning in hell, and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment before the Great White Throne {Revelation 20}. Now since you cannot before God leave such a testimony ignored unless it be to your own destruction like Judas, please discard your false notions and believe the God of eternal torment, even His Son Who died to save you from it. Discard the idea that Jesus saves from temporary hell and Lake of Fire, and embrace the Jesus that saves from the eternal Lake of Fire with its eternal torment. Only this Jesus saves to the uttermost.

    • Edy T Johnson June 10, 2013 at 2:16 pm

      Is this the reference for your claim, Lanny?

      Jhn 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

      Notice, no mention of “WITHOUT REMEDY,” only “lost.” As I wrote, above: Obviously Judas was finished with the life of this world (the wages of sin is death). This agrees with more than one of the definitions of the original Greek: “d) to declare that one must be put to death…f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy a) to lose” Thus, lost life, in this temporal world under the curse of sin and death, where we have Scriptural support to declare that the consequences of the fall are limited to this world, ending with death, the final sentence.

      The closest your understanding comes to your claim is included in the definition, but only as a metaphor! “e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell.” That metaphor is human/pagan interpretation, a big stretch to support man’s doctrine of demons.

      So, Lanny, which or whose explanation of Jesus word about Judas is closer to the truth? Do take note and read carefully the passages of scripture that Patrick included. Note especially Romans 5:(21) That as sin hath reigned **unto death,** even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

      Death ends the reign of sin. Jesus’ death finished it. Our individual death, now, only releases us from this body of death so we are raised incorruptible, a spiritual body like unto Jesus’ resurrection body, according to Scripture.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 12, 2013 at 4:07 pm

    Readers, Edy asks Is this the reference for your claim, Lanny? Jhn 17:12
    Yes, Edy, as I quoted it in part with the reference at the end of my first paragraph.

    Edy demands: Notice, no mention of “WITHOUT REMEDY,” only “lost.”
    Yes, Edy, haven’t I admitted neither those two words nor any other explained remedy was added by Jesus when I wrote the witness of both the Son of God and the Holy Spirit of God, plus the prefect receiving by God the Father of this announcement without His addition of any remedy. Didn’t I also EXPLAIN why Jesus had no reason to add those two words or any other explanation when I wrote His prophetic statement is without remedy because He knew Judas frontward and backward. I also wrote with emphasis He made that announcement PROPHETICALLY. {June 6, 2013 at 4:13 pm Jesus used the Aorist Tense Middle Voice to tell you it was emphatically done and over for Judas.} He was perished.

    Edy, Jesus spoke as the Prophet Who certainly knows the eternal destiny of Judas Iscariot. He wasn’t speaking casually telling His Father He lost one out of twelve, but He’ll eventually get him back. He was not contemplating leaving the ninety and nine to seek the one lost sheep. He declared Judas’ final destiny as a lost soul consistent with the prophecies about both Jesus and Judas: that’s the meaning of the end of that verse that the scripture might be fulfilled. There’s no prophecy of the recovery of Judas Iscariot.

    As regards paganism, Edy, which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    So where does that leave you who hope to believe God saves everybody? It leaves you with a false faith because at least one person out of everybody is not saved but lost; and if one then many. Yes, since God testifies of one lost, then many are lost and your doctrine of universal salvation is proven false just because Judas is lost, perished, burning in hell, and will be thrown into the Lake of Fire at the Final Judgment before the Great White Throne {Revelation 20}. Now since you cannot before God leave such a testimony ignored unless it be to your own destruction like Judas, please discard your false notions and believe the God of eternal torment, even His Son Who died to save you from it. Discard the idea that Jesus saves from temporary hell and Lake of Fire, and embrace the Jesus that saves from the eternal Lake of Fire with its eternal torment. Only this Jesus saves to the uttermost.

  • Edy T Johnson June 13, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book —Revelation 22:18

    Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’ cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; :18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. :19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; **you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” **

    :21 And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins, and clothed them.

    :22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, **lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever”–** :23 therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. :24 He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, **all souls are mine;** the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: **the soul that sins shall die.**
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    Psalm 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, :3 who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, :4 who redeems your life from the Pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, …:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. :9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger for ever. :10 **He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according to our iniquities.** …:13 As a father pities his children, so the LORD pities those who fear him. :14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.

    Hebrews 2:7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, :8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left **nothing outside his control.** As it is, **we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.**

    :9 **But we see Jesus,** who for a little while was made lower than the angels, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death **for every one.**

    :14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, :15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. :17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. :18 For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

    1John 2:28 ¶ And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
    ———————–
    Note: consequences for disobedience listed by God to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden are only for this world.
    Note: even though they had to be isolated from the Tree of Life, our loving God clothed them, because His mercies are new every morning.
    Note: even though all humanity returns to the dust, all souls belong to God, and as a father pities his children, so God does not deal with us according to our iniquities, but according to His steadfast love.
    Note: We see Jesus! And He is the Resurrection and the Life, victorious over all sin and death. And I love Him because He first loved me, and won my heart. Halleluiah

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 14, 2013 at 1:09 am

    Edy, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, ‘You shall not eat of it,’

    Because Adam listened to Eve instead of God; and you expect me to listen to you, a daughter of Eve? Once is enough a man listened to a woman and got us into this mess!!!

    You listen to me. Submit to male instruction.

    Judas Iscariot is damned for eternity in accordance to the plan of God; and if one man, then many other men and women also. That fits Romans 9.

    Your notion puts Adam and Eve completely non-existent between death and resurrection requiring resurrection to be their recreation, so that they are created twice. Why resurrect something He recreated? Did He recreate a dead soul? Why would God create a dead soul? Could God create a dead soul? I thought you said dead souls don’t exist. If Adam and Eve are to be recreated, why not recreate them already with an incorruptible immortal body and bypass resurrecting a corrupt mortal body requiring changing it into incorruption and immortality? Have you thought this thing through, dear Edy? Your notion annihilates Adam and Eve and all the rest of us the moment we physically die.

    Edy, the recreation of God’s Elect happens during this mortal life on this earth according to {2 Corinthians 5: 17} Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

    Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. {Hebrews 7: 25} ONLY those who come to Christ now are saved to the uttermost and that means saved from the uttermost condemnation of eternal torment. Now means on this earth during their mortal lives {2 Corinthians 6: 2} For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

    Edy, there’s a very big difference between resurrection of the body and recreation of a soul.

  • Edy T Johnson June 15, 2013 at 1:36 am

    Mr. Eichert, you certainly are a piece of work, I must say. I make a point of posting strictly Scripture passages, and in reply you lecture me as a daughter of Eve, who you think should keep quiet. Well, perhaps you forgot that the Lord didn’t hesitate to reprimand bull-headed Balaam through his donkey. So, I’m sure He also isn’t shy about speaking through a woman, too, when the need arises.

    Luke 19:39 And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, rebuke your disciples.” 40 He answered, “I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out.”

    Besides that, you err. We all are to submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. And, it is *wives* who are to submit to their own husband. It is not, as you say, that I am to listen to you and submit to male instruction. Good grief! From what I’ve read of your writing, I would never consider you among my mentors, both male and female. Why? Because the Lord blessed me with a spirit of discernment. And, I do not hear the voice of Jesus in your writing. Sorry!

    Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 16, 2013 at 4:54 pm

    Edy: Gen 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.”

    Wow, what I heard preached this morning at church on this text you quoted {June 13, 2013 at 5:22 pm}.

    your desire shall be for your husband

    That text was preached as “Your desire shall be for your husband’s authority!” That’s exactly what we see in the next verse as having happened according to God’s perspective when to Adam He uttered “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife” and therefore He let that be Adam’s “thorn in the flesh” passed on to every male on the planet whom He ordained to rule over them in these words “he shall rule over you.” Male dominance is God’s program with women resisting it all the way back to Eve.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 17, 2013 at 12:26 am

    Edy, Please address: Your notion puts Adam and Eve completely non-existent between death and resurrection requiring resurrection to be their recreation, so that they are created twice. … Your notion annihilates Adam and Eve and all the rest of us the moment we physically die. {June 14, 2013 at 1:09 am}

  • Edy T Johnson June 17, 2013 at 6:03 pm

    Lanny, you already wrote that you aren’t interested in my reflections (“Because Adam listened to Eve instead of God; and you expect me to listen to you, a daughter of Eve? Once is enough a man listened to a woman and got us into this mess!!!

    “You listen to me. Submit to male instruction.”).

    So, I don’t know why you ask, or why I should bother to explain, again.

  • Edy T Johnson June 17, 2013 at 11:17 pm

    …But, perhaps passing along someone else’s words, to help answer your question, will be more acceptable to you, Lanny. (This is one of the best illustrations of redemption I’ve ever read):

    “…Derrick gazed at the dirty puddle knowing that even then, the sun was pulling up the water. All of it’s dirt and grime would be left behind and soon, the water would reappear as pure rain drops clothed with sunbeams shining through them in all the bright hues of the rainbow.

    “Derrick said to himself, “Wow! That is what Christ did for me. He pulled me up to Himself and all of the dirt and grime of my early years have been left behind! Wow!”

    Wow, indeed.

    http://www.faithwriters.com/article-details.php?id=137532 The Triumph of Joy by Pastor Dan White

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 18, 2013 at 2:20 pm

    Edy, you conveniently ignore your notion puts Adam and Eve completely non-existent between death and resurrection requiring resurrection to be their recreation, so that they are created twice. … Your notion annihilates Adam and Eve and all the rest of us the moment we physically die. {June 14, 2013 at 1:09 am}

    Derrick answers nothing of this subject.

    • Edy T Johnson June 19, 2013 at 11:21 am

      Lanny writes: “Your notion annihilates Adam and Eve and all the rest of us the moment we physically die.”

      If that’s your picture of death, I don’t disagree. Death is “dead and gone,” but just as He knew us before He formed us in the first place, our life is hid with Christ in God, from which we look for His new creation. (Galatians 6:15)

  • Edy T Johnson June 18, 2013 at 7:41 pm

    Here are some Scriptures that have prompted my understanding, Lanny. You may draw your own conclusions; no need to accept mine:

    Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you;
    Psalm 139:15 my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. 16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.

    Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, **all souls are mine;** the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: **the soul that sins shall die.**
    Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    Psalm 89:48 What man can live and never see death? **Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol?**

    Psalm 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, :3 who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, :4 **who redeems your life from the Pit,** who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, …:8 The LORD is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. :9 He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger for ever. :10 **He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according to our iniquities.** …:13 As a father pities his children, so the LORD pities those who **fear** him. :14 For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.

    Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through **fear** of death were subject to **lifelong bondage.**

    Hebrews 2:7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.” Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. As it is, ***we do not yet see*** everything in subjection to him.

    Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, **God made alive together with him,** having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
    3:3 For you have died, and *your life is hid with Christ* in God.

    Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith *of* the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)

    1Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, **Death is swallowed up in victory.**

    Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to glory except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but ***a new creation.***

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 22, 2013 at 4:49 am

      Alice & Edy, who quotes Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil

      Christ did not share the same nature as the devil and He purposed to destroy the devil, not save him. Christ does NOT save His whole creation. He destroys most of it.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 20, 2013 at 2:33 am

    Edy, For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. {Romans 8: 6} The soul that sins is carnally minded and is dead, but the person is physically alive otherwise he can’t be carnally minded. Is everybody who is physically alive spiritually minded? Do they physically die the moment they become carnally minded and sin? Aren’t there a lot of sinful people walking this earth with mortal life? How can you say the soul that sins dies physically? That doesn’t square with reality, dear girl.

    {Colossians 2:13 And you, who were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh} Weren’t they alive walking this earth and Paul preached the Gospel to them and they got saved? How could they be BY YOUR soul that sins dies, annihiliates {Death is “dead and gone”}? How could they being dead {gone} hear Paul’s preaching?

    Have you really thought these things through?

    • Edy T Johnson June 23, 2013 at 1:43 am

      Lanny, it seems to me that instead of recognizing that each of us lives with two natures, you are projecting the old nature onto others and seeing yourself as having only a new nature. Thus, you can cut off the majority of humanity because it doesn’t fit your criteria for being “saved.” Care to wrestle with that idea for awhile? Because your contention, above (June 20, 2013 at 2:33 am) makes no sense to me, Scripturally or otherwise.

      While I have not exhausted all that the Lord intends to teach me, I have most certainly studied and been led by the Spirit to understand the Good News that you seem to reject.

      Patrick (June 20, 2013 at 6:51 pm) has given us some great study material in his post(s). Have you given that powerful Word from the Lord adequate attention. Lanny? I hope you will do.

    • Lanny A. Eichert June 24, 2013 at 3:23 am

      Edy, you still are trying to escape from your own version of the soul that sins dies. As soon as you being a living soul commit an act of sin you physically die and no longer exist. If you no longer exist you cannot hear the preaching of the Gospel. You can have no hope of salvation. That’s what your version means.

      Now you’re shifting into insisting two natures and again fail to realize if you as a living soul have a carnal nature by which you commit an act of sin you physically die according to your version and cease to exist. Again without existence you can’t hear the preaching that saves and you are hopeless.

      You universalize the two natures to everybody when they only occur in the believer. The unbeliever only has a carnal nature, only one nature. You must be born again to get the spiritual nature. This carnal nature is the source of our sinful deeds which when a person commits he doesn’t die physically. That proves that your soul that sins dies physically and no longer exists is a foolish idea.

      Edy, you say in Adam all die, but do you know why or how or when? You were conceived in sin with a carnal nature and because carnal is death you were dead, but you lively grew from conception to adulthood with mortal life all along being a soul with some sort of life. You had bodily physical life and psychological life, which is a lively soul, BUT you had no spiritual life nor will you have until being born again by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Everybody born of Adam comes into this world as a body and a soul and a spirit of man {1 Corinthians 2: 11}, which spirit of man is equated in Scripture with his soul. Only those whom God rebirths {saves} get an additional spirit, the Spirit of God {2: 12}. The natural man is seen as just body and soul, while the spiritual man is wholely body, soul, and Spirit. The physically alive natural man is seen dead because he has no Spirit of God to quicken his soul and body.

      Edy, you haven’t been yet able to define the composition of man correctly because of your form of universalism which in any form is false any way.

  • Edy T Johnson June 24, 2013 at 11:44 pm

    Lanny, it appears we are speaking two different languages. You ignore, or misrepresent, what I’ve already written. Then you add your own definition to tell me what you claim I’ve said. And, it all turns into twisted nonsense that I cannot unravel for you. I can only explain what the Holy Spirit has shown me through God’s Word.

    First, you resist admitting that we sin because we are conceived in sin (through no fault of our own). Just as I had no opportunity to pick my parents’ ethnic heritage, and speak neither Norwegian or Swedish, I am still Scandinavian by blood. And, should I want to choose to be Ethiopian or Chinese, it is impossible. The tiger cannot change its stripes. Even if I had been adopted by Ethiopian parents, I would still be Scandinavian.

    In that case, my “new nature,” by adoption would be Ethiopian, but I would still have my “old nature,” Scandinavian. Likewise, we are born sinners before we’ve ever had the chance to miss the mark or break any commandment. The fact that we all die, sooner or later, is the major clue that we are conceived in sin (Psalm 51:5). So my claim stands. We enter this world as prisoners on death row, doomed from the beginning, no matter what we do. No one can claim to be sinless, save Jesus only.

    You write: “That proves that your soul that sins dies physically and no longer exists is a foolish idea.” I beg your pardon, but you are contradicting the clear word of Scripture. “…the soul that sins shall die.”

    As long as you persist in claiming that we only *become* sinners when we sin, you will not be able to understand any of my explanations, because you don’t recognize the foundation.

    “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. …So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body…Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption…So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory….” – 1 Corinthians 15

    You wrote elsewhere: “To claim they that have done evil are raised incorruptible is to say withOUT corruption, making the resurrection a saving event.” Lanny, have we not all “done evil” since the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9)?

    You also wrote: “I hope by now you understand souls dead because of sins still possess functioning conscious existence both in this life and after physical death….” Again, this idea contradicts a whole list of Scripture references which you yourself quoted. Read more at April 26, 2013 at 8:03 pm and April 29, 2013 at 12:12 pm ; also April 22, 2013 at 11:04 pm and more.

    It seems to me that some interpret God’s Word in such a way that man is the measure, rather than God.

    Praise the Lord, it is His remedy that is sufficient for the disease, not our puny efforts to justify ourselves!

    • admin June 25, 2013 at 12:15 am

      This is an excellent response.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 25, 2013 at 8:42 am

    Edy, you still haven’t been yet able to define the composition of man correctly because of Ezekiel 18: 4. Your chronology of man is as foolish as Alice’s end of man. Her excuse is the non-linearity of time. Neither one of you nor even Patrick will face reality because you devise your god saves everybody. You should put as much effort into John 17: 12 as you do in Ezekiel 18: 4.

    The soul that sins dies but by you that doesn’t mean physical death each moment it sins, because by you death means no more existence to continue sinning. How much sinning must a soul do before it dies, dear Edy? I guess you compile its sinning and suffering hell on earth until they balance or it believes in Jesus? You offer no explanation. You’re the one that made the “twisted nonsense” denying the immortality of the soul. You are unable to tell the end of man by sound chronology. Since we are all sinners we all die and cease to exist by your definition of die. Without existence you expect us to hear God’s voice?

  • Edy T Johnson June 25, 2013 at 8:34 pm

    I absolutely deny the immortality of the soul. Scripture is clear, God alone is immortal.
    “Romans 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the IMMORTAL God for images resembling MORTAL man or birds or animals or reptiles.”

    Words mean something. God alone is without death; we obviously are not.

    Now, you tell me, Lanny:
    +When a body dies, where does the breath go?
    +Since the life of the flesh is in the blood (but the blood returns to dust along with the body) what happened to the life?

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 26, 2013 at 5:00 pm

    Edy, your view is all twisted nonsense that you cannot unravel and that’s what I’ve exposed to you and Alice. The soul that sins dies MUST mean something other that what you say. Ceasing to exist doesn’t work when you have a carnal nature. Therefore ceasing to exist is not correct. With the carnal nature die must mean something other than ceasing to exist. A person with a carnal nature continues to exist. Continued existence is not ceasing to exist. A person controlled by his carnal nature continues to commit acts of sin, but does neither physically die nor ceases to exist. He continues as a living soul who is dead, having died further each time he sins. The answer for understanding this is what is sin. Sin is coming short of the glory of God endowed to Adam and Eve at their creation. They were made in the image of God for communication and fellowship with God. With that glory/image ruined, man became estranged from God. Since God is Spirit and man must worship God in spirit and in truth, both spirit and truth died in man when Adam sinned. Sin makes the man’s spirit dead and man is defined as a soul that died in his relationship with God. He remains physically alive, but spiritually dead as long as his mortal life lasts without conversion to Christ. He is a lost and dead soul because of sins.

    Now, Edy, since God created the human race by means of our first parents’ reproduction your choice in conception is an invalid matter, but since you raise your issue you display you lack of submission to your Creator, so it is no wonder that you refuse to believe He will discard all unbelievers into eternal fire and torment as He forewarned you He would do.

    Do you now see what issues you must consider in order to come to a right definition of terms? This is plain and simple language studies.

  • Lanny A. Eichert June 26, 2013 at 9:59 pm

    Edy, your life/breath question must also be answered carefully with respect to how the words are used. In 1 Corinthians 2: 11 man’s spirit is most likely a reference to his psychology or soul. Both spirit and breath also mean man’s life force as some have called it, actually life. Other times it is used in reference to his liveliness or vitality or zest or zeal. Your reference to the life of the flesh is in the blood actually creates a problem for you disputing the breath returns to God Who gave it {Ecclesiastes 12: 7}. Blood, then, is also a symbol of life as is breath. First aid training requires the restoration of breath before stopping the bleeding. Your question is all biological. God sustains both our breathing and our circulation.

    Perhaps it would be better to use the word everlasting in reference to man and eternal in reference to God so that man is everlasting since he has a beginning but no end and God is eternal having no beginning nor end. However the same Greek word is used of both men and God. FYI since man is made in the image of God, why should man have an end. His beginning cannot be anything other than a non-eternal reference since he was created, which signifies no prior existence. Since man is designed FOR the eternal God why shouldn’t his existence never end? Think about what man’s purpose is.

    Why am I here?

  • Edy T Johnson June 26, 2013 at 10:33 pm

    Unfortunately. some believe in limited atonement, that God does not love His creation enough to rescue every single lost lamb from the jaws of the wolf. What a detestable proposition! I take God at His Word and believe He ransomed the entire world from sin and death, not yet revealed, but certainly on the horizon, as He promised.

    Some make man the measure of everything. Some insist that we “must do” so much to achieve the free gift God has provided. But, in His Word, we read that He makes the sun to shine on the good and the bad. They don’t have to “do” anything to receive the sun, they can only try to avoid it, an impossible occupation. Likewise the gift Jesus finished at Calvary and sealed at the resurrection, it is accomplished for us.

    I maintain that we do not have to “DO” anything to receive the free gift. But, by the power of the Holy Spirit that calls us through God’s Word, we WILL receive it. Not of works, lest anyone can boast.

    Since Jesus loved me so much that He died for me, I can only trust that He has done the same for everyone, even the thief on the cross and Judas Iscariot, like it or not. As I walk with Jesus in the Light, our relationship grows closer, more compelling, and I want to shout the good news to everyone still struggling in the dark world of sin and death that the Light has come “for you, too!”

    So, I say, enough of this endless wrangling. Let us rather keep our eyes on Jesus, the Author and FINISHER of our faith, who has begun a good work in every soul and will bring it to completion in His own time. Now we see through a glass darkly, but then we shall see Him face to face and know as we are known.

    “After the Execution” is a story I wrote. Perhaps it expresses in a more personal way a picture of the marvelous gift of redemption. See: http://www.faithwriters.com/wc-article-level3-previous.php?id=18346

    • admin June 28, 2013 at 2:58 pm

      You paint a lovely image of redemption (your story).

      • Edy T Johnson June 28, 2013 at 3:48 pm

        Thank you, “admin,” it sort of wrote itself in my head as I lay awake in the dark, one night, a gift from God to me for others.

    • Stephen Helbig June 29, 2013 at 9:30 am

      Edy great insight ~ I read the link ~ I cried in joy ~ Truly ~ “I see the Light. I see flaming seraphim around the throne burning with the purest love. I see that lake of fire as the bosom of the Good Shepherd. I see the Truth: Our God is a consuming fire! In His mercy, the One who is Love, takes all of our curse into Himself. ~ ~ And Yes I relate~ He that is forgiven much really does Love by grace.

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