God’s Perfection

God’s Perfection

I’ve taken number 99 in Thomas Whittemore’s 100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind and repackaged it for those of us who are visual learners:

Screen shot 2013-06-28 at 4.06.28 PM

Comments
  • Mary Vanderplas June 28, 2013 at 9:43 pm

    I like your diagram, and agree that universalism, in contrast to both Calvinism and Arminianism, upholds these attributes of God. Calvinism has a capricious God permitting or effecting the eternal damnation of some – which is hard to reconcile with the Bible’s teaching about God’s love. Universalism, in contrast, has a God who loves all the world and wills to save all the world. Arminianism has a God whose desire to save all is thwarted by the sinful resistance of some – a view that underestimates God’s sovereignty (while overestimating human agency). Universalism, in contrast, has the sovereign will of God to save all being wholly sufficient: God getting what he wants. I’m not sure who embraces the point-of-view in the center of the diagram – the idea of people being “lost by God’s neglect or want of foreknowledge.” This wouldn’t be Calvinism, of course. It wouldn’t be Arminianism, either, since Arminianism affirms both God’s desire to save all and God’s foreknowledge of who will respond in faith. At any rate, I don’t disagree the universalism, in contrast, has a God who is neither negligent when it comes to accomplishing his purpose nor unaware of who will respond in faith to his gracious gift.

    • admin June 28, 2013 at 10:08 pm

      Regarding the view in the center of the diagram, I would lump “neglect” in with “good” (or lack of it) and “want of foreknowledge” in with “power” (or lack of it).

      • Mary Vanderplas June 29, 2013 at 5:53 am

        That makes sense. I don’t know anyone who actually holds these views, though. Calvinists talk about God’s rejection of some based on a predetermined plan, not about God’s neglect of those who don’t (and can’t) believe. Arminians talk about God knowing beforehand what individual persons will do and electing those whom he sees as cooperating with his grace while rejecting those whom he sees as finally resisting it – not about there being any lack in the foreknowledge of God. I suppose it doesn’t really matter when it comes to the message of the diagram whether these views are only hypothetical. In any event, your point about neglect being an expression of lack of goodness/love and want of foreknowledge being an expression of lack of power/sovereignty makes sense.

        • Lanny A. Eichert June 29, 2013 at 7:39 pm

          Haven’t either one of you neglected washing the kitchen dishes in order to expedite a more important task? By doing so did you lack goodness and love? Were you created in the image of God? What does the image of God do in your lives?

          So God in part neglects the ungodly to sustain and prepare His chosen Elect, protecting and preparing their way, without lacking any goodness and any love toward them, all of them. “ALL”, yes all.

          Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves {Romans 1: 24}

          Wherefore also God did give them up, in the desires of their hearts, to uncleanness, to dishonour their bodies among themselves {YLT}

          • Mary Vanderplas June 30, 2013 at 8:07 am

            “Giving them up” – i.e., turning them over to their own choices – isn’t the same as neglect. Neglect implies a failure to accomplish some (worthwhile) purpose or task. Nowhere is it said that God neglects the non-elect so as to focus his attention on the elect.

            The greater issue is how to square the doctrine of double predestination with the Bible’s plain teaching that God is love. Indeed, it can’t be done.

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 1, 2013 at 7:01 pm

              Mary, must I remind you that there is no action taken by God in His giving them over to their own choices. God just let them “go for it” without restraining them. If you must see an act of God in it, then the act of God was a deliberate choosing of non-intervention. He neglected to change their course of action and allowed total depravity to work.

              The sovereignity of God solves you double predestination horror. So God in part neglects the ungodly. Didn’t I write “in part” to show you I recognize His grace is also to the ungodly, but not as it is to the godly, the product of His love. Haven’t I also previously in other blogs quoted God hates the wicked unto eternal punitive punishment without remedy?

              The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth. Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup. {Psalm 11: 5 & 6}

              Why don’t you people stop forcing what you want God to be, and accept what God says He is?

              • Mary Vanderplas July 2, 2013 at 6:03 am

                What God says he is, is love in himself and that he loves the world. Creating the majority of world’s people with the intention of condemning them to hell isn’t love.

                • Lanny A. Eichert July 2, 2013 at 3:39 pm

                  Mary, what do you call FORCING them to convert?

                  Wake up and face the reality of >90% of the world’s population to date has rejected Christianity in any form. Six thousand years of human history has proven God saves very few, 90%, of humanity especially if God has determined seven thousand years as the whole course of mortality.

                  If you will face reality you must redefine what God means that He is love. You must admit your current definition is wrong. Remember His ways are higher than ours and the evidence of what God has done in human history denies your definition of God is love. You have no revealed provisions of post-mortal salvation, nor any examples given in Scripture, but you do have both provisions and examples of mortal salvation carefully presented throughout the Holy Bible. Your desire just isn’t there because it just isn’t made by God. Stop forcing it and start facing the reality that God saves only His Elect.

                  Mary, can’t you see how scant and stretched are the arguments for universal salvation in the light of the specific details of mortal salvation?

                  • Lanny A. Eichert July 2, 2013 at 3:43 pm

                    Mary, correction

                    error: God saves very few, 90%

                    correction: God saves very few, <10%

                    Six thousand years of human history has proven God saves very few, <10%, of humanity especially if God has determined seven thousand years as the whole course of mortality.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 6, 2013 at 11:32 am

                      (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
                      (2Co 5:7 KJV)

                      Are you walking by sight? or are you actually walking by faith dear sir? I think you are walking by sight because scripture clearly declares who God is God is the Savior of ALL men especially those that believe. We serve a living God who WILL HAVE ALL men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Both statements are direct quotes from scripture concerning what God is doing.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2013 at 2:25 am

                      Patrick, God gave humanity choice and therefore will not force them. God gave us His formula: believe during this life or be damned eternally. In that is contained His desire all be saved, but also in that is contained few will believe. World history confirms it.

                      You still have no record of the post-physical death salvation of an unbeliever in Scripture upon which to base your hope. We have many examples of folks saved in this mortal life unto eternal life: just read Hebrews 11. Since God gave no record of the other, there is no salvation after physical death for the unbeliever. There’s also no Biblical record of how an unbeliever is supposed to be saved after he physically dies: no invitation; only a resurrection unto damnation/judgment followed by the eternal Lake of Fire. 1 Corinthians 15 makes no mention of such a resurrection as Jesus referenced in John 5: 29 shall come forth; … they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. You can’t get these into 1 Corinthians 15. You can only resort to Alice’s and Mary’s “only God knows how it works” for an explanation of your incomplete fairytales spawned by your refusal to believe eternal torment is reality.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 13, 2013 at 4:10 pm

                      Ecc_3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

                      God does what he wants to do and no man can stop him from accomplishing what he set out to do even if they have a will.

                      Dan_4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

                      Isa 43:11-13 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. (12) I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God. (13) Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

                      Isa 14:26-27 This is the purpose that is purposed upon the whole earth: and this is the hand that is stretched out upon all the nations. (27) For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

                      Isa 46:9-13 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (11) Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. (12) Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: (13) I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

                      Psa_52:1 To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth continually.

                      Rom_2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

                      Isa 45:21-24 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (22) Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. (24) Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

                      If you were to take the all of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alphabet and rolled them into a scroll and matched the books of the bible to each letter For example aleph line it up to Genesis ; bet to Exodus; etc then you would have three books to each letter. Aleph 1st book Genesis, 23rd book Isaiah, and the 45 book Romans. the scroll would look something like this:

                      http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Spoke01_500t.gif

                      Now the letter aleph signifies God, the beginning and first things. Now the beginning book of the bible is genesis and is considered the first book of the Law. Isaiah is the first book of the Prophets, and Romans is the first book of the New Testament Epistles. God has spoken from the beginning and has made his end very clear. Genesis states it when he promises to bless all nations through Abraham’s seed which is Christ. Isaiah the 45th chapter bears witness to it when God covenant swears by his own name to do it and romans the 45th book of the bible declares it clearly in more then one chapter 5, 8, 9-11.

                      Now if you did not catch that the book of Isaiah has 66 chapters for a reason they each match the 66 books of the bible. there are 39 chapters of severe judgment that match the 39 books of the old testament and 27 chapters of blessing and glory that match the 27 books of the new testament. It is no mistake or just a simple coincidence that the very 45 chapter of Isaiah can be linked to the 45th book of the bible. The very phrase every knee will bow and every tongue will confess in Isaiah 45:23 is found in the 45th book of Romans in chapter 14:11

                      Isa_48:3 I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass.

                      Isa_48:5 I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them.
                      Isa 46:9-10 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, (10) Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

                      My faith does not rely on any post-physical death salvation of an unbeliever. My faith relies solely upon his sworn word and his promise that has gone forth from the very beginning. Now the aleph spoke the beginning spoke of all scripture bears complete witness to this marvelous fact. Check out this site it will help you to understand

                      http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/Spokes/Aleph.php

                      It does not matter if you cannot see what he is doing no man can stay his hand and he is going to love the hell out of everyone by doing good to all men he has commanded and sworn by his own name and his word shall not return to him void as much as you desire it to do that he has promised to save.

                      See Lanny God’s very own word is on trial here on weather he is actually trustworthy or not. and he has sworn by his own name to bring it to pass the salvation of all men thereby making it impossible for it not to occur. This is something he has declared from the beginning of the law the prophets and even the epistles. And as the scripture declares a three fold cord is hard to break.

                      Ecc_4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2013 at 1:51 am

                      Patrick, you are very eloquent, but very wrong according to Jesus’: wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat {Matthew 7: 13}. You have no salvation if you cannot accept His words, but choose your own wisdom, which reinterprets His words.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 14, 2013 at 5:49 pm

                      All you are doing Lanny is setting one set of scriptures against another without finding how they harmonize with each other. And you are telling me nothing I have not already answered already. All you are giving me is your opinion of what some man told you that chapter means and you take it out of the context of Jesus speaking to the Jews who a few during the time of Jesus found life, and try to apply it to all men as an answer that God is not going to keep his sworn word of saving all men. How ridiculous is that. Your interpretation that your denomination has taught you does nothing but make God sworn word a lie of the greatest proportions. But you continue to ignore the fact that Jesus also promised that these same Jews would be the last to enter the kingdom after the prostitutes they despised.

                      But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
                      (Mat 21:28-32 KJV)

                      Jesus came to seek and save that which is lost. and he is not going to quit till he accomplishes WHAT HE WAS SENT TO DO SAVE THE WORLD BY FINDING ALL THAT ARE LOST.

                      And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
                      (Luk 19:9-10 KJV)

                      For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is NOT THE WILL OF YOUR FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN, THAT ONE OF THESE LITTLE ONES SHOULD PERISH.
                      (Mat 18:11-14 KJV)

                      This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
                      (1Ti 1:15 KJV)

                      ALL OF US ARE GOING TO REAP WHAT WE SOW BUT WE ALL ARE GOING TO BE SAVED IN GOD’S TIMING THE FEW THAT FIND LIFE DURING THEIR LIFETIME ARE GOING TO HAVE REWARDS BUT THE MANY WHO DO NOT ARE GOING TO SUFFER GREAT LOSS BUT THEY ARE STILL GOING TO BE SAVED AS BY FIRE. this IS THE ONLY DOCTRINE THAT HARMONIZES ALL OF THE SCRIPTURES.

                      GOD’S SWORN WORD MUST COME TO PASS IF IT DOES NOT THEN GOD IS NOTHING BUT A LIAR of the greatest magnitude AND NONE OF US ARE EVER GOING TO BE SAVED. IF YOU CAN’T TRUST HIS SWORN WORD THEN YOU CAN’T TRUST ANY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF HIS MOUTH.

                      Is it not truly amazing the implication of eternal torment when viewed in the light of scriptures. And how many ideas that men hold as true because they trusted their pastors to teach them the truth that are not supported by even a single verse of scripture; yet are accepted to be true by many. It is time for the church to wake up to the corruption of the scriptures- the traditions of men which make the word of God of none effect, that has been taught for the last 1700.

                      Sorry Lanny but to me I cannot accept your one verse argument as disproving all the scriptures I have brought forth. Especially the sworn word of God that he is going to save all men you continue to ignore to prove that god is not going to save all men. You still need to deal with that.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2013 at 11:54 pm

                      Patrick, Matthew 7: 13 is sufficient to prove everything you say is false since it is backed by “for all have not faith” {2 Thessalonians 3: 2} and God’s last two thousand year track record in the world’s population. How many times must I tell you >90% world-wide have failed to embrace any kind of Christianity through the centuries. Wake up to reality.

                      Haven’t you read “Making War”
                      Lanny A. Eichert says:
                      July 12, 2013 at 2:14 pm
                      Alice, how is it only a remnant shall be saved and all Israel shall be saved? Are you unable to comprehend that the all Israel is the entire ethnic remnant that is mortally alive on the earth at the beginning of the promised millennium?

                      Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved {Romans 9: 27}

                      And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob {Romans 11: 26}

                      Can’t you see that “all” doesn’t mean everybody, but is limited in scope by the entire Holy Bible, and especially in this Epistle? In this Epistle first the Remnant is establish as the definition of the all Israel. In both cases ethnicity is established as well.

                      What’s a remnant in this context mean, dear Patrick? God saves only a FEW?
                      What did Esaias {Isaiah} mean “been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha?” Destined for eternal fire?

                    • Patrick Strickland July 17, 2013 at 1:55 pm

                      Now that is interesting the sworn word of God that is immutable unchangeable and is God’s greatest guarantee that what he has promised will occur no matter what: is now become worthless promise that offers no hope to anyone. Simply because of traditions interpretation of Matthew 7 not only makes his sworn word changeable but guarantees that God is not going to do what he swore to do. Congratulations on making God just like a fallen man that can lie and his sworn word meaningless.

                      Matthew seven has another interpretation that you simply ignore to prove the sworn word of God not true. If God won’t keep His sworn word to save all men then why do you expect him to keep any promise to you or anyone for their salvation?

                      We know from the sworn word of God that every knee is going to bow and every tongue is going to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord ie in him they have righteousness and strength. And we know from Matthew that God is not going to accept just empty lip service… where with your tongue you confess Jesus is Lord but with your actions and your heart you continue to do what you want to do in his name. God is not going to accept that empty lip service hard hearted confession at all, and he is only going to accept a confession of your lips that Jesus Christ is lord when you start to seek to hear and do what the Father in you will show you. Every man’s actions and their covenant confession are going to match up and as long as they do not they are not going to enter into the kingdom of God They are on the road of destruction and will be destroyed by their own actions. God kills and he can make alive. What he either destroys or allow s to be destroyed he can and will restore. God is going to continue to deal with each and every individual till all can make a confession with both their lips and actions of their hearts that he is Lord . Where both actions and confession of their lips are what the father has told them and shown them to do… Where Jesus is truly Lord of their lives thereby allowing them to enter into the kingdom of God. Nothing less will fulfill his sworn word. The word that has gone out in righteousness and will not return to him void.

                      But your tradition makes his sworn word which was intended to bring an end to all strife impossible to come to pass and changeable. And since Hebrews declares this concerning a sworn word

                      Heb 6:13-18 KJV For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, (14) Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. (15) And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. (16) For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. (17) Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: (18) That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

                      As you know immutable means unchangeable unalterable

                      Therefore your tradition of men you are trying to pawn off as truth is clearly unscriptural because it changes God’s immutable promise Making it impossible for God to save all men who he has declared he is going to save.

                      Remember we TRUST in a living God WHO IS the savior of ALL MEN especially those that believe 1 Tim 4:10.

                      You can trust in a god who is NOT the savior of all men but only those who believe all you want to; but he is NOT THE GOD OF SCRIPTURE!!!

                      God is out to establish a living loving relationship with all men. Reading and studying scripture and assuming you know Him is not having a relationship with God at all. I can read and study the newspapers all day long and think I know the president of the united states but the simple truth is that I don’t know Him and have never had a relationship with him as a friend. if I tried to enter the white house because I claim to know and am a friend to him, the secret service will check with him if he knows me if he is not too busy and his answer I never knew him will guarantee that the secret service will throw me out and if I become a nuisance they may arrest me. But I still don’t know Him any more then someone who just studies scripture who has never had a relationship with God and has listened to him teach them does. God is wanting every man to take the time to get to know him. He is in each and every one of us since the cross but most are looking for God everywhere but where he is and do not realize that they can now have a living relationship with him now. Not just a head knowledge that comes from just reading about Him and forming an opinion based solely upon what some else has said.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 17, 2013 at 1:58 pm

                      I will answer your remnant question at a later time I must get ready to go to work

                      Grace and peace

                    • Patrick Strickland July 18, 2013 at 7:42 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      Did you know that in the old testament when Israel sinned really bad, God would send correction to them in the form of the sword, fire, famine, and sickness. And the remnant that was saved was usually those who had not rejected and turned away from God. Salvation for the few was being delivered from the corrective punishment that God sent to the whole nation. Many would die but only a few would be saved either scattered to the four winds or as prisoners of the people God sent to chastise his son Israel. the remnant being saved- Salvation of a few had nothing to do with going to heaven but had everything to do with remaining alive in the earth so that they could continue to serve God when the correction of God came upon His chosen people the Jews.

                      Romans was written in 57 A.D. just 13 years before God sent the sword, fire, famine , and disease of His correction to Jerusalem when he destroyed the city in 70 A.D. Only a remnant was saved the majority of the Jews alive at that time died when Tiberius sacked the city. Read Joseph war of the Jews for a complete picture of what happened.

                      When God’s people sin, then God sends harsh correction and when his correction comes then only a remnant will be saved alive to continue to live for Him in this earth. History has demonstrated this fact time and time again.

                      But that has nothing to do how many people God has already determined to save make whole and gather together in one in him. All men will be corrected and chastised and salted with fire and all men eventually will be made whole in Christ. There are many different types of salvation seen in scripture. In the old testament a man could be saved and delievered from sin, sickness, oppressors, enemies, the sword.

                      A remnant saved refers to those Jews that God keeps alive when his correction came just 13 years later in the destruction of Jerusalem. And for the jews it has been fulfilled over and over again throughout the dark ages and even in our modern times when a few survived Auschwitz and the many death camps the Nazis created to exterminate them.

                      Now it is clear that in God’s timing God will save all Israel. But every time his children turn aside to sin then he will also send correction and destroy many of his children off the face of this earth, and only a remnant will remain alive in the earth.

                      For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
                      (Rom 11:25-29 KJV)

                      God has determined to save all men by sending Jesus to take away the sins of the world and He will continue to correct us all till we each forsake our wicked ways and accept what he has sworn to do for all men.

                      Grace and Peace Patrick

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 19, 2013 at 2:09 am

                      Patrick, Matthew 7: 13 & 14 is just as surely the sworn Word of God as any other Biblical text. Therefore you have no valid argument. Many remain lost and few are saved. You still don’t have a Biblical record of unbelievers saved after physical death to prove your point. You also have an extremely poor human history, 90% lost, which actually contradicts your point. The whole volume of the Holy Bible closes with a populated Lake of Fire without remedy.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 21, 2013 at 3:57 am

                      Patrick, since God can make an age that doesn’t end your whole universal salvation scheme will not work because {Jude 7} “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” is an age that doesn’t end trapping its victims endlessly. You see, your translation of age-during for eternal does NOT prove your point, but it does prove eternal torment.

                      You folks are really naughty to insist the fire is age-during and ages come in various lengths, meaning they come to an end, but you avoid saying God can make an endless age. That’s deceitful logic.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 27, 2013 at 6:09 pm

                      Hi Lanny

                      I was just wondering Can you find any place in Matthew seven where God says I swear by my own name to do it?

                      Without his sworn oath behind it then the passage in question is not a sworn word of God and will not affect by changing a sworn word nor cause a sworn word to not come to pass. Matthew seven just helps elaborate what god meant when he said swore that every knee and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.

                      Now anyone who is religious and has studied the bible like Saul of tarsus did at the feet of Gamiel or some other man in our case we have a tendency to do exactly what Saul did we try to defend our religious heritage from all who would oppose it from lying about what they believe misrepresenting their oppositions position and if we can get the government behind us like the early Christians did after Constantine came into power, or later as the Catholics did during the dark ages, they even persecuted all those that did not believe just like they did by first denying them the right to have businesses homes churches to worship in … to the point of killing their enemies that disagreed with what they were taught to be truth. Saul did it and history is filled with many examples of men that did the same thing in the name of god.

                      Yet they did not know God at all. They just knew some man in a pulpit taught them about him and his word, and they accepted that as truth without question.

                      It was not till after Saul had a run in with Christ Jesus that he stopped persecuting all those that disagreed with his understanding of scripture. Paul never killed another person after that encounter with God.

                      Many people claim to know God and are doing His will but many are just like Saul was defending a belief in God but not truly knowing who he is they are actually serving. That is the kind of confession that will not get you into the kingdom of heaven that is why it is so important for all men to have a run in with God like Saul did. It will take your knowledge about him from just a knowing scripture and agreeing with what you have been taught by men to the point where you will know Him and listen to his interpretation of what he actually meant by what he had written.

                    • Patrick Strickland July 27, 2013 at 6:59 pm

                      Can God make an age that never ends?

                      Absolutely!!! In fact that age he made that never ends is related to his life which is endless (Akatalutos)

                      As I have told you before a man’s lifetime can be an age (aionios); having a beginning and an end. A cows lifetime can be an age (aionios); a mayfly’s life can be and age (aionios): a dog’s lifetime can be an age (aionios). A mountain range existence can be an age (aionios) having a beginning and an end. All of these ages can be different lengths of time some very short some very long all have beginnings and endings.

                      At the same time God’s life is a age but it has no beginning and no end and His life is also described as endless (Akatalutos) According to scripture Jesus christ life is also described as immortal (Aphtharsia, and Athanasia in the Greek) and he is the only one to have it. but as we all becopme partakers of His divine nature and get to know him we begin to live from his endless immortal life.

                      Now eternal torment is never described as endless (Akatalutos) or immortal (Aphtharsia, and Athanasia in the Greek). There is absolutely no scriptures that can remotely make aionios mean an age that never ends when the adjective aionios describes torment or condemnation. Aionias torment has a beginning and has an end. Aionios life because it is also endless and immortal does not. All ages have beginnings and endings except in reference to God himself

                      Christ is our life.
                      For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
                      (Col 3:3-4)

                      He is never described as our torment, nor is he ever described as our condemnation. God never created an age that never ends in relation to torment. That age you insist upon would be against his will and his sworn word to save all men.

                  • Mary Vanderplas July 3, 2013 at 5:46 am

                    “[A]s all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ,” Paul says (1 Corinthians 15:21-22) – meaning what else but that the grace of God extends to every last sinner because of what God has done in Christ. Moreover, in the incarnation God bound himself to humanity – giving reason to believe that all of us are among those whom God has chosen to receive his saving gift, that all of us are among “his Elect” (a point that the great theologian Karl Barth articulated).

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 3, 2013 at 8:49 pm

                      Contrary, Mary, to Jesus Christ: “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat” {Matthew 7: 13}

                      So who’s right, Barth or Christ?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 4, 2013 at 1:53 am

                      Mary, having bound Himself to to humanity, if He only wanted to save just a few, WHAT differently would God have done? Would He not have to have done everything the SAME just to save the few He chose to elect? Was there any OTHER way to save less than 10% of all mortal humanity than to save 100% of humanity? What LESS could God have done than that He did do if His design was to save only a remnant? Wouldn’t He still have been required to become incarnated? Wouldn’t it still be true that all He chose to call out for salvation will certainly without fail be made alive in Christ? The key phrase is “in Christ” and not everybody gets in Christ because faith is the only way to get in Christ and all do not have faith, therefore only a few are made alive in Christ. You need to view 1 Corinthians 15:21-22 in the context of it being addressed to saints and not the world. The resurrections described are only that of saints like those addressed. There is no resurrection of the unjust mentioned in the chapter at all. All resurrection statements are fully positive describing saints’ resurrections. There are no bad resurrections in the chapter. Jesus said, the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth … they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. {John 5: 28 & 29} This resurrection is not SEEN in chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians. What is seen is a making-alive-resurrection which limits “so all will be made alive in Christ” to just saints. Everybody else is raised to judgment and condemnation, having died IN THEIR SINS {John 8: 21 & 24}; that which follows the Judgment {Revelation 20: 11 – 15} is the eternal Lake of Fire for them.

                      You wrongly use both of your ideas, especially 1 Corinthians 15, because you are not thorough.

                      Jesus said, “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and MANY there be which GO IN thereat” {Matthew 7: 13}

                      Who’s right, Barth or Christ?

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 4, 2013 at 2:00 am

                      Alice, Mary wrote, Moreover, in the incarnation God bound himself to humanity. Mary, therefore makes it impossible for God to redeem Satan and his fallen angels. She’s right. God does NOT redeem His entire creation.

                    • Mary Vanderplas July 7, 2013 at 7:35 am

                      If in the incarnation God has bound himself indissolubly to humanity, then there is good reason to think that all are in Christ and hence chosen to receive God’s saving gift. It is not an unreasonable hope, anyway, that all will be saved based on God’s act in Christ of assuming our humanity. How and when unbelievers will be brought to faith is something only God knows – and the response of faith, while not unimportant, shouldn’t be made all-important when it comes to our determinations about who will (and can) be saved.

                      All humanity, not just all the saints, die in Adam. Likewise, all humanity, not just all who currently are counted among the saints, will be given newness of life in Christ. This is what Paul seems clearly to be saying here.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2013 at 1:45 am

                      Mary, Mary, Mary, you continue to avoid Satan didn’t die in Adam and he has no connection to the humanity of Christ and therefore cannot be saved, meaning God does NOT save all His creation as Jesus said of humanity in Matthew 7: 13 “broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat”

                      You also purposely refuse “in Christ” as very clearly a function of faith which ALL do NOT have, yet you squeeze them into Christ BEFORE they have faith on the basis of passages of sovereignty, following Patrick’s and Stephen’s faulty logic.

                      Your hope is very unreasonable to dismiss Matthew 7: 13 and the term “in Christ” as a primary reference limited to mortal saints. It is also unreasonable to build a case and then say only God knows how it works. If you can’t show Biblically how God said it works, then you only have an imagined case. Please realize you are promoting something that has eternal consequences. God has defined eternal consequences for unbelief which you dispute on extremely limited and twisted reasonings of definitions and perverted contexts.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert July 9, 2013 at 3:40 am

                      Mary, if God only wanted to save only a few WHAT would He do differently than He did? Would He have not have been incarnated?

                    • Mary Vanderplas July 10, 2013 at 5:50 am

                      Your question misses the point. The point is that the incarnation – God’s assuming our humanity, his collapsing of the distinction between earth and heaven, as one person put it – discloses the depth of God’s love for humanity, for all people. It isn’t hard to imagine this act of God determining the destiny of every last person.

  • Patrick Strickland June 30, 2013 at 4:45 pm

    I think it would be very interesting to see all 100 visually displayed as you have done with no 99. Excellent 🙂 Thank you Alice.

    I like number 3 -6

    GOD THE LORD, OR OWNER OF MEN

    3. All men, of right, belong to God. “Behold, all souls are mine,” saith the Lord. “As the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine.” Ezek. 18:4 God will not give up what belongeth to him, to the dominion of sin and Satan forever. All men are God’s by creation; he made them all. They are his by preservation; he sustains them all. They were his at first, and they always have remained in his care. “The earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.” That God, who says to men, “If any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith and is worse than an infidel,” can never abandon his own creatures. He will ever exercise a gracious care over them, as will be more fully seen in the following reasons.

    ALL MEN COMMITTED TO CHRIST’S CARE

    4. God hath given all things to Christ, as the moral Ruler of the world. “Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.” Psalms 2:8 “The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35 “All things,” here, means all intelligent beings. So say the best commentators. (The word things is in italics in the KJV which means it is not in the Greek. We are not talking about trees here.)
    5. God gave all beings to Christ that he might save them. “Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.” John 17:2 This plainly evinces, that it was God’s design, in giving Christ dominion over all flesh, that they should all enjoy eternal life.

    6. It is certain that Christ will save all that the Father hath given him. “All that the Father giveth me, shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in nowise cast out.” John 6:37 These three propositions are irrefragable evidence of the final happiness of all men. 1st. God hath given all things to Christ. 2d. All that God hath given him shall come to him; and 3d. him that cometh he will in nowise cast out. All are given; all shall come; and none shall be cast out. What is the unavoidable conclusion?

    I do not at this moment imagine how that would be represented visually but i know it would take some very creative thinking to display them. Sounds like an interesting and creative challenge.

    Grace and peace Patrick

    • admin June 30, 2013 at 8:13 pm

      Good idea!

    • Lanny A. Eichert July 7, 2013 at 4:52 pm

      Why, Patrick, do you after quoting {Thomas Whittemore’s #5} John 17: 2 ignore John 17: 12?

      those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

      Judas Iscariot is lost, not saved, according to Jesus Who also prayed both verses 2 & 12. Do you think Judas is enjoying eternal life in hell right now?

      All beings to Christ that he might save them? All beings? In the incarnation God bound himself to humanity, Mary said; and there’s nothing in that about other “beings” that I can see, only human beings. Christ is only bound to save human beings, no angels, no demons, no unclean spirits, no devils, and no Satan. Christ only died for human sins. Satan didn’t die in Adam, therefore he cannot be made alive in Christ, the last Adam.

      • Patrick Strickland July 13, 2013 at 4:33 pm

        We have already discussed this on the dream machine thread and you know that I view it differently from you and that the son of perdition is actually the carnal mind in each of us standing in the temple of God which you are declaring it is Lord of the temple and has the right to do what it wants to do. This son of perdition is what will be destroyed at the appearing of God in his temple when he comes to be glorified in us.

        As far as Judas the man is concerned I believe he will be saved but the son of perdition in him was lost and destroyed. Now you are free to believe that he is lost all you want but I think you will be surprised when you get to heaven at how many men are actually going to be saved. If you can hear it Judas did the will of God that he was sent to do.

        Judas had to betray the Lord Jesus Christ because God had sent him into this world for that very purpose.

        Lanny dear sir Whitmore lived in the 1800’s and the definition of the word for being must come from a dictionary of that time so that you may properly understand how he used the word being.

        WEBSTER’S DICTIONARY 1828

        Being
        BE’ING, ppr. [See Be.] Existing in a certain state.

        Man, being in honor, abideth not. Psa 49.

        BE’ING,n. Existence; as, God is the author of our being.

        In God we live, and move, and have our being. Acts 17.

        1. A particular state or condition. [This is hardly a different sense.]

        2. A PERSION EXISTING; APPLIED TO THE HUMAN RACE.

        3. An immaterial, intelligent existence, or spirit.

        Superior beings, when of late they saw.

        A mortal man unfold all nature’s law–

        4. An animal; any living creature.

        Animals are such beings, as are endowed with sensation and spontaneous motion.

        Ask yourself from the context that I previously quoted from Whitmore 100 reasons for the salvation of all men does Satan have flesh? Then if he does then he is included as part of all that is saved; but if he does not then he is not included in the context of what Whitmore was saying, and is strange that you would consider we are talking about the salvation of Satan, when we are talking about the salvation of all men.

        Grace and peace Patrick

        • Lanny A. Eichert July 14, 2013 at 2:00 am

          Patrick, just look how you play words in your response. That’s evil, not simple faith.

          • Patrick Strickland July 14, 2013 at 5:54 pm

            Can you give me an example of what you are talking about?

          • Lanny A. Eichert July 15, 2013 at 2:16 pm

            Patrick, your first two July 13, 2013 at 4:33 pm paragraphs {on the son of perdition}. Jesus was speaking of a person not principles, as also the Holy Spirit inspired the Apostle Paul to writen in 2 Thessalonians 2: 3. These are the only texts to use the term and an identified person is the intended meaning. You have no Scriptural support for your imaginary notion that you have expanded.

            • Patrick Strickland July 18, 2013 at 8:29 pm

              What you call a play of words I call listening to the holy spirit teach me what he actually meant by what he had written.

              Don’t you think that the very fact that the phrase son of perdition is only found in two places is not significant?

              Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
              (2Pe 1:20 KJV)

              knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture at all is becoming its own explanation.”
              (2Pe 1:20 CLV)

              So literally you can say that no discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, is it’s own explanation.
              Scripture must interpret scripture. You cannot use just the scripture you are quoting as it’s own interpretation, you must find a second to explain it. This is a principle of biblical interpretation. We all must learn to compare spiritual with spiritual.

              2 thess 1,2 help explain what Jesus meant concerning the son of perdition. And Yes it applied to Judas, but it most assuredly applies to each and every man alive. When God comes to be glorified in us his temple then the son of perdition the antichrist in each of us sitting in the temple saying I am Lord of this temple will be destroyed by God’s appearing in His glory in us. This ultimately is the only man that is truly lost and destroyed, this wicked tare that Satan planted in each of us. but the seed of christ that God planted in each of us first which is the wheat will be saved. This seed is that light that lightens every man that came into this world it is the very life we have, and the very breath we have and it only came from God. Every man has light-life that God gave them from the foundation of the earth and when we entered into this world of death we lost our remembrance of the source of our true life. Scripture declares that in death there is no remembrance of thee. We live in a realm of death and we are dead in our sins and trespasses to the truth of our being in Him. Only when we learn to hear him will be even begin to recognize the truth of our being.

              Judas fulfilled the will of God that God ordained from before the foundation of the world for him. We learn in scripture that Jesus was crucified from before the foundation of the world (rev 13:8) and in God’s eyes he had already planned for Judas to betray him. In fact there are several prophecies in the Old testament that testify to what Judas would do. It was God’s will for him to betray Jesus Christ and he fulfilled the job that God wanted him to do.

              Now without God showing you these things I never expect you to understand them or even accept them as truth but you will continue to act like they are nothing but foolishness to you. Just as scripture declares.

              Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
              (1Co 2:12-16 KJV)

              We have been given the mind of christ don’t you think it is time for you to let that same mind operate in you as it does in him?

            • Lanny A. Eichert July 19, 2013 at 2:19 am

              Patrick, you have no essential room for instantaneous conversion such as that which made the Apostle Paul.

              Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {John 3: 3}

  • Lanny A. Eichert July 6, 2013 at 8:03 pm

    So, Mary, HOW can all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ,” Paul says (1 Corinthians 15:21-22) work since Jesus said, the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth … they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. {John 5: 28 & 29}???

    HOW, Mary, can there be a resurrection of damnation that Jesus stated? HOW is a person made alive in Christ? WHEN is an unbelieving person made alive in Christ: before or during or after the resurrection of damnation? Please explain what provisions are stated in the Scriptures to make it a righteous thing for God to do this.

    In Scripture God fully discloses with examples how mortal man is saved, but what Scriptures fully disclose with examples how the man who dies in unbelief is saved?

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