Why the Church Needs the Church As Much As the Church Needs the Church

Why the Church Needs the Church As Much As the Church Needs the Church

Response to Rachel Evans blog, Why millennials need the church as much as the church needs them If you are not familiar with Rachel Evans, I’ve been (ever so slowly) writing a chapter by chapter book review of her book, A Year of Biblical Womanhood.  (Here are the blog posts, if you want to have a look: Three-Thousand-Year-Old Inferiority ComplexGirl Gone MildMartha Stewart TheologyObedience: My Husband, My MasterBird’s Eye View of Rachel Evans’ Book, Eshet ChayilMy Breasts Are Like Towers, and I’m Too Sexy For My Tzniut.) Here is an excerpt from Why millennials need the church as much as the church needs them:

For a time, I counted myself among the spiritual but not religious, Christian but not churchgoing crowd. Like many millennials, I left church because I didn’t always see the compassion of Jesus there, and because my questions about faith and science, the Bible, homosexuality, and religious pluralism were met with shallow answers or hostility. At first I reveled in my newfound Sunday routine of sleeping in, sipping my coffee and yelling at Republicans who appeared on ”Meet the Press.” But eventually I returned, because, like it or not, we Christian millennials need the church just as much as the church needs us.

Rachel’s reasons for returning include: Baptism, confession, healing, leadership, communion, confirmation, and union with Christ. Before setting out to write this blog, I asked Rachel something: evans As I read Rachel’s blog, I have the distinct impression that Rachel is, for the most part, NOT addressing “the Body of Christ, present in Christ’s followers around the world.”  The reason I get this impression is that Rachel begins the blog saying she used to be counted among the “not churchgoing crowd,” but that now, she has “returned.” In addition, she specifically references the church as a place.  For example, “…the church is where we find them.”

As I’ve said before, it is unfortunate that there is only one word used to describe two completely different concepts.  We use the word church to describe both a place and a glorious concept (as described by Rachel in the screencap above).  The place, in my opinion, is a man-made attempt to control the glorious concept.  If Rachel is writing about the place-church, then her blog post makes perfect sense.  I might disagree with what she writes, but I am, at least, able to understand her view.  If Rachel is writing about the glorious concept-church, then much of her blog post doesn’t make sense.

Sometimes Rachel moves from addressing the place to addressing the body of Christ.  For example, Rachel writes, “The church, at its best, provides a safe place in which to wrestle with this story we call the Gospel.”  Here she refers to the church as an entity, separate and distinct from the place.  The church (believers) provide the place.

People, and in this case, millennials, choose to leave the place.

Should we assume that if they’ve left the place-church, they’ve left the glorious concept-church?  If so, why?  Does BEING the church not count unless it happens in some official ceremonious manner in a specific geographical location?  When Rachel gave up churchgoing, was she no longer part of the body of Christ?  When Rachel returned to the place, was she grafted back into the body of Christ?

I have no doubt that Rachel would answer these questions in the negative and offer beautiful explanations as to why millennial believers are still part of the church even if they don’t go to church, etc. But there’s no sense-making when the term church is not properly defined.  If we are to run with the idea that millennials are still “the church” even if they don’t go to church, then how are we to make heads or tails of Rachel’s statement?

…millennials need the church just as much as the church needs us…

Translate the word church as a place, and it makes sense (that the statement is erroneous is irrelevant to this particular point).  Translate the word church as the body of Christ, and it means that millennials stopped being the body of Christ when they stopped showing up at the place.  I don’t think Rachel believes this. I have much more to say about this blog.  I would like to address each point (Baptism, confession, healing, leadership, communion, confirmation, and union with Christ).  But until the term church is clearly defined, it would hurt more than it would help. Hopefully, Rachel will take the time to make a distinction between the place-church and the body of Christ-church so that I can write a proper response to her blog.

In the meantime, let me tell you why I no longer live in Egypt:

Because people are systematically punished for being who God created them to be.

Because the hierarchical structure breeds apathy among those at the bottom, corruption among those at the top, and burn-out among those in the middle.

Because God’s reputation is dragged through the mud, the power of Christ is underestimated, and the Spirit of God is grieved nearly every week.

Because the system drains the time, energy, and resources of those who would be otherwise engaged in doing good in their circles of influence.

Because the system is designed such that true reform is impossible.

Because you don’t put new wine in an old wineskin.

Comments
  • Alice August 6, 2013 at 9:13 pm

    and burn-out among those in the middle….

    YES! We are burned out. I am over it (“church”) in a building for the time being. I really like the idea of using what resources we do have in our own little worlds.

  • Mary Vanderplas August 7, 2013 at 7:16 am

    I don’t disagree with your contention that leaving the institutional church is not the same as leaving the church as the body of Christ. In fact, if one is a believer, one is, by virtue of one’s union with Christ, part of Christ’s body. One doesn’t choose whether or not to be a part of the body; the only thing one chooses is whether or not to act like it. Nor do I disagree that the church is not a building, that it is not equated with or confined to a particular geographic location and the practices that go on there, but is present wherever believers are, wherever and whenever Christ is worshiped and served. I don’t agree, though, that to speak as Evans does about returning to church, about going back to being involved in a local community of believers who together live out their faith in Christ is particular ways, is an illegitimate use of the term. Indeed, the term as used in the New Testament refers not just to the “glorious concept-church,” the body of Christ inclusive of all believers everywhere, but also to local congregations who met together (in particular places), ate together, worshiped together, fought together, etc. The saints whom Paul and the other New Testament addressed were people with particular names and addresses – and particular needs for instruction, correction, etc.

    I agree that the institution is flawed, though, as I’ve said before, I’m not as convinced as you are that it is beyond all hope of reformation. Nor do I think that the defects that you point out are as widely characteristic of the institution as you suppose. But that there are (glaring) defects cannot be denied. Your articulation of your reasons for leaving and for staying away is insightful – if hard to hear.

  • Stephen Helbig August 7, 2013 at 2:28 pm

    Communication can be difficult, and that circle or box in which we communicate is very relevant. Paul states that he became all things to ALL men that he may WIN some. If one is able to truly see THE CHURCH as the KINGDOM OF GOD our views of “US verses THEM will greatly collapse. Yes I know of the duality that exists concerning these matters but this is also God’s divine plan to move us into the ONENESS of Righteousness, Peace, and Joy of Our Lord Jesus Christ In His Oneness, ~ for God is one.

    As I read Rachel Evens blog above “Why millennials need the church” (August 2nd, 2013 @ 08:00 AM ET), I had to do a double double take to see if I totally misunderstood a previous blog written by Rachel on (July 27th, 2013 @ 08:33 AM ET) called “Why millennials are leaving the church” which upon reading, I took as expressing great truths of our times and progression of the Kingdom of God. However in reading “Why millennials need the church” I too wondered are these blogs really written by the same mind of our Lord for my first reading and thought was to that of a stagnant PLACE ~ (OLD WINESKINS) as opposed to the glorious body of Christ as this was my view of her previous blog on leaving.

    All I can say is our box or circle containing the called out ones is to small and I give an Amen to Our Lords saying to Peter ~ “I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the Heavens”
    ———————————————————————————————————-

    p.s. ~ Ecclesia (ekklesia) the Greek word for church, originally meant an assembly called out by the magistrate, or by legitimate authority. It was in this last sense that the word was adapted and applied by the writers of the New Testament to the Christian congregation. In the one Gospel of St. Matthew the church is spoken of no less than thirty-six times as “the kingdom.”

    p.s.s ~ when we confine church to a place or “building only” it can easily become The land of our bondage “Egypt”

    p.s.st. ~…For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the GOVERNMENT will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over HIS KINGDOM, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. (Isaiah 9:6,7)

    • Stephen Helbig August 7, 2013 at 2:56 pm

      p.s. ~ to my above comment. There is a progression, ~ “There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace” and I am excited to continue in this great legacy. Today one can see this increase in a reformation to perfect that which concerns us. Notice we are being “re ~ formed” to this pursuit of our Lord, and as we look to our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ as presented in the truth of GOD IS LOVE we will break the divisions that ought not to be, ~ For God is ONE

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 8, 2013 at 4:00 am

      Stephen, ecclesia occurs only three times in the whole of Matthew and that in only two verses.

      In 16: 18 Jesus speaks of His church {first usage} which He has yet to build and uses the future tense to build referring to the Acts 2 Day of Pentecost.

      In 18: 17 the other two usages occur.

      Thereafter ecclesia does not occur in any of the Gospel accounts.

      It is dishonest to speak of the church in all of the Old Testament and any of the Gospels since God did not inspire its use in the Hebrew and Greek Testaments which are the only inspired texts by the Holy Spirit.

      To come up with textual reasons for church where it is not textual is to follow the precepts of men.

      • Patrick Strickland August 10, 2013 at 7:04 pm

        Hi Lanny Glad to see you back. I hope you are feeling better.

        You stated

        “It is dishonest to speak of the church in all of the Old Testament and any of the Gospels since God did not inspire its use in the Hebrew and Greek Testaments which are the only inspired texts by the Holy Spirit.”

        I am not so sure that your point is true. In the LXX the Greek Septuagint which was written years before the new testament was… in point of fact many have dated the LXX as early as the 2nd century B.C. And when you do a search for verses where the word Ekklesia is used you will find 73 verses with 77 uses of that word. That is actually quite a lot of mentions for the church for not being in the old testament.

        (Deu 4:10) (Deu 9:10) (Deu 18:16) (Deu 23:1) (Deu 23:2) (Deu 23:3) (Deu 23:8) (Deu 31:30) (Jos 8:35) (Jdg 20:2) (Jdg 21:5) (Jdg 21:8) (1Sa 17:47)
        (1Sa 19:20) (1Ki 8:14) (1Ki 8:22) (1Ki 8:55) (1Ki 8:65) (1Ch 13:2) (1Ch 13:4)
        (1Ch 28:2) (1Ch 28:8) (1Ch 29:1) (1Ch 29:10) (1Ch 29:20) (2Ch 1:3)
        (2Ch 1:5) (2Ch 6:3) (2Ch 6:12) (2Ch 6:13) (2Ch 7:8) (2Ch 10:3) (2Ch 20:5)(2Ch 20:14) (2Ch 23:3) (2Ch 28:14) (2Ch 29:23) (2Ch 29:28) (2Ch 29:31)
        (2Ch 29:32) (2Ch 30:2) (2Ch 30:4) (2Ch 30:13) (2Ch 30:17) (2Ch 30:23) (2Ch 30:24) (2Ch 30:25) (Ezr 2:64) (Ezr 10:1) (Ezr 10:8) (Ezr 10:12) (Ezr 10:14) (Neh 5:7) (Neh 5:13) (Neh 7:66) (Neh 8:2) (Neh 8:17) (Neh 13:1)
        (Job 30:28) (Psa 22:22) [21:23] (Psa 22:25) [21:26](Psa 26:5) [25:5] (Psa 26:12) [25:12](Psa 35:18) [34:18](Psa 40:9) [39:10] (Psa 68:26) [67:27](Psa 89:5) [88:6](Psa 107:32) [106:32] (Psa 149:1) (Pro 5:14) (Lam 1:10)
        (Joe 2:16) (Mic 2:5)

        There are modules you can get for E sword which include the LXX and the LXX with Strong’s at http://www.biblesupport.com/ if you want to check out the Greek old testament download it and check it out for your self.

        Again glad to see you back dear sir you were missed.

        Grace and Peace Patrick

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2013 at 1:51 am

          Patrick, in Matthew 16: 18 Jesus speaks of His church {first usage} which He had yet to build when He uttered those words. He used future tense, dear fellow, so please pay attention. There can be no church until Jesus builds it. As I said before to Mary, the church’s citizenship is in heaven while Israel’s citizenship is on earth. There currently are TWO bodies: Israel is currently God’s adulterous wife, while the church is Christ’s virgin bride to be. But regardless as to how I make the split, Jesus still used the future tense when He spoke of His church in 16: 18, thus testifying He had not yet built it. The Holy Spirit also testified it was not yet built as He inspired Mark, Luke, and John to never include that word in their Gospel accounts. Luke and John used the word significantly in their other writings; the Holy Spirit thus testifying when the church began being built by Jesus.

          It STILL is dishonest to speak of the church in all of the Old Testament and any of the Gospels. Acts 7: 38 is the only support for referencing Israel as a church and that ONLY during their 40 years in wilderness wandering. That’s significant, in the wilderness, I mean, is the only time God calls them a church. It is truly the doctrine of men to call Israel the church. God didn’t but once. Romans 11 is proof positive God will again take up with His adulterous wife whom He has currently cast away {11: 15}.

          • Patrick Strickland August 15, 2013 at 2:54 pm

            It has been said and rightly so that…

            “The Old testament is the New testament concealed” and “The New testament is the Old testament revealed.

            The ecclesia the congregation of Jews of the Old testament is nothing but a type and shadow of the reality that they pointed to the church that Jesus is building. Many lessons can be learned from them that have a direct relationship with the church that Jesus is building.

            Now I never said that the church was in existence in the old testament as the same thing we know today but as a type and shadow they are mentioned there and acts 7:38 and the usage of ecclesia in the multiple mentions in the LXX prove it; and the church we know today is mentioned in the old testament specifically in Psa 22:22 (ALXX) I will declare thy name unto my brethren: In the midst of the church will I praise thee. which is quoted in the new testament in Hebrews 2:12 Heb 2:12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

            To say that the church is not mentioned in the old testament is dishonest and shows that more research should be attempted on your part before you make a claim.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 19, 2013 at 2:24 pm

              Patrick, the LXX is not Holy Spirit inspired. The NT quotes are. The church is a NEW body. It does NOT belong to the OT. You are still forcing a NT concept and word into the OT where it is NOT in the inspired text.

              • Patrick Strickland August 24, 2013 at 2:31 pm

                Hi Lanny

                Your answer brings up many questions that need to be resolved.

                Is the old testament inspired?
                Are translations of the old testament inspired?
                Are any translations of the bible inspired?
                How does quoting something from an uninspired translation make it inspired?
                If translations are uninspired then why rely on them for the meaning of words that are not in the original languages…hell, church, forever, eternal…etc?

                Check out the history of the Septuagint and you will see some
                very interesting things

                http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint.html

                Your view of the Septuagint as being uninspired does not match the early churches view of it at all.

                But then again this line of inquiry opens up a whole new set of questions concerning the pen of the scribes used to deceive men with.

                Jer 8:7-9 Rotherham Even the stork in the heavens knoweth her appointed times, And the turtle and the swallow and the crane, observe the season for coming; But my people know not the just sentence of Yahweh. (8) How can ye say, Wise, are, we, And the law of Yahweh, is with us? But indeed lo! falsely, hath dealt the false pen of the scribes! (9) Ashamed are the wise, dismayed and captured! Lo! the word of Yahweh, have they rejected, And, what wisdom, have, they?
                Jer 8:8 CLV How do you say, We [are] wise, And the law of Yahweh [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it has wrought, The false pen of scribes.”
                Jer 8:8 Darby How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? Behold, certainly the lying pen of the scribes hath made it falsehood.

                Why did the Jews change the old testament Hebrew after the church accepted the Septuagint as inspired?
                Why are there no copies of the original Hebrew Bible to compare with the Masoretic texts?
                Did the Masoretes actually change the texts?
                Is there any proof of this?

                I could ask many more questions but that should be enough for you to ponder upon for right now

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 24, 2013 at 11:58 pm

                  Patrick, the Masoretic texts are simply Hebrew COPIES, not translations, painstaking copies achieving perfection. All imperfect attempts were deliberately totally destroyed.

                  Since the original autographs were inspired by the Holy Spirit, copies and translations were the works of men and must be weighed on their merit. Since the Bible is found in multitudes of historical forms professional critics have pieced together most reliable versions to greater than 99% accuracy what was the original autographs. There is no question any longer what each word is in the Bible, and that by even scholars that are not Bible believers.

                  • Patrick Strickland August 29, 2013 at 4:31 pm

                    Hi Lanny

                    There are some interesting facts when the Masoretic texts which were mainly written close to 1000 AD (MS) are compared to the both the Septuagint (LXX) 300-200 BC and the Dead sea Scrolls (DSS). The Dead Sea Scrolls date back as early as 250 B.C., but most of them date to about A.D. 50–100. In many places the dead sea scrolls matches both the MS and the LXX rather well. But when compared to the many differences between the LXX and the MS; the DSS mainly agrees with the LXX, Now that is not to say that the DSS agrees solely with the LXX because it does not but there a few places where it agrees with the rendering of the MS over the LXX. In the majority of the differences between the LXX and the MS, however the DSS agrees with the LXX rendition.

                    The DSS shows that in many places where the LXX differs from the MS is not due just to transitional error.

                    The LXX was fully accepted by the Jews and was even commissioned by the high priest as a legitimate translation fully inspired and quoted by all the new testament writers. The LXX was not contested till around 135AD when the Jews wanted to discredit it because they rejected Jesus as the messiah.

                    The site i refereed to answers your first objection about trashing bad copies quite well. If you want to visit it and read it fully then here is the link.

                    http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/septuagint.html

                    To assume that their was no tom-foolery from the scribes involved with the MS manuscripts when the majority of the differences between it and the Septuagint do not agree with the DSS is almost naive on the lengths men specifically jews who had previously accepted it as a inspired book went to to discredit the LXX.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 1, 2013 at 4:02 am

                      Patrick, to wonder why God could not keep His Book perfect in the hands of men is to doubt God. Your god is impotent who cannot keep it.

                    • Patrick Strickland September 4, 2013 at 5:50 pm

                      “Patrick to wonder why God could not keep His Book perfect in the hands of men is to doubt God. Your god is impotent who cannot keep it.”

                      You seem to have a preconceived idea that God is keeping the scriptures completely perfect and inviolate and that he actually promised to do that. But if that was truly the case them there would be absolutely no differences in any Greek manuscripts, and no differences in the supposed meticulous copies of the Hebrew MS and the DSS, strangely there are many differences between different manuscripts some minor and some major. This is a well known fact. So why did your God not keep the meticulous copies of the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts perfect and exactly the same? Does not this fact completely contradict your supposition that God kept His Book perfect in the hands of men? See this is more a problem for you to deal with then it is for me. Because…

                      It is the glory of God to hide a thing but it is the glory of Kings to search it out. Pro 25:2

                      God did not give us a perfect flawless literal Bible to find His truth with. He gave us an anointing to lead and guide us into all truth. We have many manuscripts and scrapes of manuscripts that differ from each other in various ways, Some contain passages that others do not. Some spell words differently, then others: Some words are in the plural, but in other manuscripts the very same passage the word is in the singular. There are many differences too numerous to list Some minor and some major but you get the picture. However God gave us the anointing that will quicken us to which is actually the truth. But we must search each passage out and ask God which one is true. And when he shows us which one is true then we can have no doubt which passage in scripture from which manuscript is actually truth. But knowing which one it true is not the same as knowing what he actually meant by what he had written. We must each of us seek God to find out what He actually meant. Acquired beliefs and spiritual truths quickened to us from God himself are as different as pebbles and diamonds.

                      Don’t get me wrong I do believe that God has supplied us with a complete version of his scriptures, we just have to search through all the different variations of the assorted manuscripts to come to it; but without the anointing teaching us there is absolutely no way for any of us to ever come to the knowledge of His truth by just reading various manuscripts of scripture alone.

                      Sooner or later we each must let go of the pebbles we hold unto to get the diamonds he has prepared for us.

                      Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 8, 2013 at 2:57 am

    Dear folks, there are divisions to keep and those other uses we need to understand what the author is meaning. This site demonstrates a desire to mix it all up into nonsense to promote its own pride.

    You all commonly agree that God has made ages that don’t end, yet you refuse to believe He made an age of eternal punitive torment by playing with word meanings nowhere intended by the text. You import meanings and call it enlightenment and then try to make me the logical scapegoat.

    {I could be writing this in Rachel Evan’s defense as well as mine.}

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 8, 2013 at 4:25 am

    Since you commonly agree God made an eternal age of bliss, it only logically follows God made an age of eternal torment as the counterpart for the damned. You try to deny it by saying God is not that cruel, so therefore God saves everybody, which the Holy Bible records otherwise and human history proves is the case.

    You love to deny Jesus’ words in Matthew 7: 13 about the “many” which are the majority of humanity throughout mortal history. Jesus said what you refuse to hear. What you promote is not enlightenment, but open dishonesty.

    God looses >90% and saves <10% such that the ecclesia is an assembly called out as Stephen aptly defined it. It's the 90%. That’s the only way God’s adaptation of the Greek word makes any sense. If God were to save everybody, there be nobody left from which to call out His assembly.

    Dear people, Please understand remnant and elect. They refer to a select group from among a larger group. Please think.

    • Lanny A. Eichert August 8, 2013 at 4:39 am

      The <90% is the world from which the {<10%} church is called out.

      I'm trying to be as simply clear on this subject as is possible. You cannot have a called out assembly without having something from which they are called out. The church is called out from the world. If the whole church were the world, from what would they be called out? Don't you see God cannot save the whole world and still have a church?

      • admin August 8, 2013 at 4:45 pm

        Hey, welcome back, Lanny! How are you?

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 9, 2013 at 2:10 am

          Three screws now hold the upper ball of my leg bone, but now recovery of use begins and then the financial headaches. Nevertheless God is superintending everything, even your lack of ability to trust Jesus’ “many” and “few” in Matthew 7: 13 & 14 by which He will discard you into the Lake of Fire for eternal torment. That will be the result of your deliberate unbelief.

          Remember you just cannot have a church without an unconverted world. Also your arguments about eternal and all hold no water when kept in contexts. Please face the reality of God’s track record to date and know He is calling out only a remnant for His Name’s sake. “Name” means “Who God Is” in your site and “remnant” is “What God Does.” God does not save everybody since who He does save He uses as a demonstration of His mercy and grace. They are demonstrated to everybody else whom God has not chosen to save. So again you cannot have a demonstration without an unsaved world.

          So many things are against your incorrect denial of eternal torment, dear Alice. Alice, many of the people I have loved are currently burning in eternal torment; and I am just following God’s example of loving even those who will not believe to the damnation of their souls. I am doing nothing different than God even toward you and yours.

          • admin August 10, 2013 at 1:52 am

            Well, your leg may be out of sorts, but your mind is back to business as usual I see 🙂

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2013 at 4:08 pm

              Alice, this is no joking matter. Your eternal destiny is at stake; whether you go to heaven or hell.

          • Mary Vanderplas August 10, 2013 at 7:05 am

            God doesn’t sit idly by, watching helplessly or indifferently as those whom he made in his image go headlong to their destruction. On the contrary, God’s love is an active, initiating, seeking, reconciling love; God is working persistently to heal and restore, to bring every lost one of his human creatures to himself.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2013 at 2:15 am

              Mary, Jude verses 5 – 7 and Romans 1: 24

              • Mary Vanderplas August 12, 2013 at 5:35 am

                See Romans 5:6-8, Luke 19:10, Jeremiah 31:3, John 3:17, 1 John 4:14; 1Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

                That God hands over the ungodly, who worship created things rather than the Creator, to their own choices doesn’t mean that he gives up on them. That God acted in history to judge and punish the unbelieving and ungodly – and that God will act at the end of history to judge the unrighteous – is a theme in scripture. But alongside this theme is the theme of universal salvation.

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 13, 2013 at 4:56 pm

                  Again, Mary, what has gone over the dam is eternally lost in unbelief because God requires faith to profit {Hebrews 4: 2}.

                  John 3: 18 he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. God said CONDEMNED ALREADY, past tense {perfect passive indicative} continuing state of reality.

                  There is no illustration in the perfect Holy Bible of anybody saved after physically dying in unbelief. Only NOW is the day of salvation {2 Corinthians 6: 2}, so don’t receive the grace of God in vain {verse 1}.

                  Universal salvation lacks historical evidence, but not so with {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} the many and the few. >90% have perished in six thousand years. Why do you make Jesus a LIAR?

                • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2013 at 10:23 pm

                  Mary, “that God will act at the end of history to judge the unrighteous – is a theme in scripture” that itself disputes universal salvation. If He judges them, the unrighteous, at the end of history means they are unrighteous and judged in the END of history, whose history? Theirs. Their history ends with them still unrighteous and judged, meaning condemned. That’s their END. How can you make another end after the END? How can you get them saved AFTER the end of history, the end of their history? Logically you make no chronological sense and must therefore resort to Alice’s self-manufactured idea of non-linear time/history and claim it is beyond human understanding. If you can’t understand it then why are you proposing what you can’t understand and claiming it works?

                  But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. {2 Corinthians 11: 3}

                  • Mary Vanderplas August 15, 2013 at 6:39 am

                    As I’ve said repeatedly, the Bible juxtaposes the two themes: limited salvation and universal salvation. Because of this, it is impossible in my view to decide the matter strictly on the basis of what the Bible teaches about the eschatological future. However – again, as I’ve said repeatedly – I think a compelling case can be made in favor of universal salvation on the basis of the nature and purpose of God that all be saved and on the basis of the cross as the full outpouring of God’s wrath against human sin. In this light, divine punishment at the end of history (and in the here and now) is non-retributive and saving.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 19, 2013 at 2:16 pm

                      Mary, How can you make another end after the END?

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 24, 2013 at 5:36 am

                      Only God knows when and exactly what the End will be – including what the final judgment will be like and what the punishment of the ungodly in the life to come will entail and whether it will have its limits (i.e., an end).

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 24, 2013 at 2:19 pm

                      Now you write about a possible end without an end, wow !!!

                      Confusing stuff and you think you know a thing or two?

                      Read and believe God’s perfect literal Holy Bible, will you?

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 25, 2013 at 5:40 am

                      What I’ve said is clear and comprehensible (in contrast to your cryptic comments about “ends”), and makes sense. Let me repeat it one last time: God has not made us privy to the details of the eschatological future. What we have been given to know is that history is moving toward an end/conclusion, in which God’s reign triumphs. Whether this will entail the final salvation of all is, in my view, highly likely, for reasons I’ve articulated more than a few times. Whatever punishment is inflicted on the ungodly will, likely, be finite – and for the purpose of purification and restoration, not revenge.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert August 25, 2013 at 11:10 pm

                      Mary thinks in vain the Scriptures say:

                      for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. {Romans 12: 19}

                      For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. {Hebrews 10: 30}

                      God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies. The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet. {Nahum 1: 2 & 3}

                      Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people. {Deuteronomy 32: 43}

                      Eternal torment is their punitive never ending destiny, dear Mary, whether or not you like it, because it is declared in God’s perfect literal Holy Bible. You know how you stretch and twist words to come to yor false conclusion. Eternal torment is a very simple conclusion.

                      Believe the Book now, sooner than later, else you’ll have a rude awakening.

                    • Mary Vanderplas August 29, 2013 at 6:24 am

                      The God revealed in Jesus Christ is no vindictive deity who delights in seeking retribution and punishing beyond measure his enemies.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 1, 2013 at 3:47 am

                      Mary, the Book, God’s perfect literal Holy Bible, says what it says and to characterize it as vindictive retribution and punishing beyond measure is an evil assessment since God is Just and Sovereign.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 2, 2013 at 6:05 am

                      Eternal torment for finite sins is, by definition, punishment beyond measure. The biblical witness characterizes God not as a revenge-seeking tyrant, but as a loving parent who judges and condemns sin in order to help and restore his wayward children. The justice of God is displayed as a loving justice supremely in the cross, where God took upon himself the death sentence for guilty sinners (all of us), bearing the painful consequences of our sin, in order that we might be free.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 4, 2013 at 12:31 pm

                      Mary, beyond measure is your assessment by your definitions. You are judging God and deliberately forgetting that the cross must be accepted in this mortality or else it profits nothing. 2 Corinthians 6: 2 Now is the day of salvation.

                      Let God be Just and Sovereign.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 5, 2013 at 5:55 am

                      The God revealed in scripture and in Jesus Christ is no vengeful tyrant who hates and wills the destruction of his enemies. He is the God who loves sinful human beings and who, because of his great love for us, judges our sin, even as a loving parent punishes in order to help and restore. The justice of God is a loving justice – as the cross so powerfully reveals.

                      Punishing infinitely for finite sins is, by definition, punishing beyond measure. Such is not the picture of the God revealed in Jesus Christ – the God whose justice is always and only a loving justice.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 7, 2013 at 1:16 pm

                      Mary, your are STILL believing Satan’s lie that you will not die contrary to God’s track record of destroying Israel’s enemies. God doesn’t change and He is the Potter in both the Old and New Covenants. He has made creatures to destroy by which to contrast His grace upon His Elect. Scripture evidences the salvation of His Elect but NOBODY else. The evidence is NOW is the day of salvation; there is no entrance into salvation for those who physically die in unbelief: no record of a single soul in the first four thousand years of human history covered by the Holy Bible. Human history proves >90% die without professing Christ. That proves Jesus’ word which you also seem to refuse to believe: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} Jesus doesn’t teach what you do.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 10, 2013 at 5:21 am

                      God’s enemies in the OT were those who acted unjustly, those who held power and wealth and did violence against the weak and vulnerable members of society. Those who were included in the ranks of the covenant people were those who acted justly, not just those who belonged to a particular ethnic group.

                      The God revealed in Jesus Christ is love in himself. Making creatures for the purpose of destroying them is hardly consistent with God’s revelation of himself as love. That God can accomplish his desire that all be saved cannot be ruled out. In light of God’s purpose and in light of the meaning of the cross, there is every reason to hope that all will be saved.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2013 at 1:29 pm

                      Mary, when are you going to give up your foolish notion and believe Jesus’ New Covenant words: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} Jesus doesn’t teach what you do. There still remains no documented person in the Holy Bible who died in unbelief and was afterward saved during the four thousand year chronology of it, yet its chronology records many believers. Dear lady, the gates are ONLY opened during this mortal life and destruction is just that: eternal torment without remedy. Jesus is ia Liar if it is not so. If He is a Liar, then there is not salvation anyway, neither truth nor hope.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 13, 2013 at 5:31 am

                      The words in Matthew 7 do not constitute a doctrinal statement about who or how many will be saved; they constitute an exhortation to disciples who are inclined to slack off to renew their commitment (lest they be found lacking at the end). They reflect Matthew’s theology of the Christian life as a road, a path, a matter of deciding daily to follow Jesus.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 16, 2013 at 1:18 am

                      Mary, doctrinal simply means teaching and Jesus was teaching {5: 1 & 2} the multitudes the way to be lost and the way to be saved and giving the “percentages” {many and few} for each way respectively. 7: 13 & 14 are Jesus’ words that He spoke and did not originate from Matthew. Neither is there exhortation specifically to His disciples.

                      You have exposed you unbelief in the God-breathed inspirational nature of every word of the literal perfect Holy Bible such that you belittle God and make Him incapable of get every exact word His own Son spoke down on paper in black and white. It is evil blasphemy to suggest it was Matthew’s idea when Jesus originated the idea.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 20, 2013 at 5:39 am

                      The Gospels as we have them reflect the theology of the writers – and the historical circumstances of the original readers – as much as the historical events they portray and interpret. They were composed decades after the occurrence of the events on which they are based, through a long process of collecting, selecting, editing, and interpreting materials; they were not simply dropped into the laps (or the heads) of the authors, nor were they intended to be biographies of one Jesus of Nazareth.

                    • admin September 21, 2013 at 9:53 pm

                      I hope to one day have the panoramic view of scriptures that you do, Mary.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 22, 2013 at 2:33 am

                      Wow, Mary, what liberalism !!! You sure don’t believe 2 Timothy 3: 16 or John 14: 26. You refuse the supernatural in favor of the purely natural. And Alice thinks you’re great at it as you lead her astray. What condemnation is upon you both !!!

                      Obviously you haven’t seen what I wrote Patrick about Galatians 3: 16 and thirteen verses in Genesis, have you? Or all the prophesies of Jesus birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection proving the supernatural character of the perfect literal Holy Bible that God has preserved through the centuries. It was authored by God and preserved by God and certainly parts of the New Testament and parts of the Old were written years after the fact by the breathing out from the Holy Spirit each and every word spelt correctly to the penmen.

                      You either don’t give God much credit or you have an impotent god of your own design.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 22, 2013 at 6:09 am

                      The tradition I was raised in taught me well – at least when it came to the Bible’s nature as a divine-human book, authored both by God and by the church, the community of Christian faith.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 26, 2013 at 11:26 pm

                      Mary, you were taught a tradition that Christ complained was a tradition of unbelief. You were taught to go to hell. And you were taught that really well. Satan specializes in turning people away from true faith that embraces the Holy Bible as completely true to every spelt word.

                    • Mary Vanderplas September 27, 2013 at 5:20 am

                      The writer of 2 Timothy doesn’t spell out any theory of inspiration. As scholars point out, the idea that the scriptures are “God-breathed” reflects the Genesis story of the creation of Adam. In this picture Adam is created from both the dust of the ground and the breath of God; so, too, the scriptures have both a human and a divine origin.

                      John 14:26 isn’t saying that the disciples will remember every word that Jesus said. It’s saying that they won’t be left alone to struggle to remember and tell about Jesus. The Spirit of God will be with them guiding them in the whole process of preserving, interpreting, editing, expanding upon, etc., the tradition of Jesus so that the message of Christ is faithfully presented in new situations.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 2, 2013 at 5:18 am

                      What Jesus criticized, according to the Gospel writers, was the Pharisees’ practice of multiplying rules, thereby creating heavy burdens for people, and their focus on ritual purity and legalities instead of on the larger obligations of the law, namely love and mercy. He criticized also people’s rejection of him as the Christ of God – not their understanding of the scriptures as a product of both divine and human action.

                    • admin October 2, 2013 at 5:12 pm

                      Well said.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2013 at 2:31 am

                      Mary, Jesus condemned minimizing the literal authority of the Scriptures by your tradition. It doesn’t get any simplier than that.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 4, 2013 at 5:11 am

                      Nowhere in the Gospels is it said that Jesus condemned the practice of taking seriously the human aspect of the scriptures, nor that he equated acknowledging the authority of scripture with a hermeneutic of literalism.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 4, 2013 at 11:36 pm

                      Mary, by example Jesus spoke literally of Jonah in the fish three days as a literal picture of His three days literally buried. Also He credits the Holy Spirit with David’s Psalms. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? {Matthew 22: 43 – 45} He calls Scripture “every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” {Matthew 4: 4} consistent with 2 Timothy 3: 16 & 17 which is divine and literal.

                      Your tradition has blinded you to the character of the Holy Bible and you must minimize it for the sake of your translations.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 7, 2013 at 5:33 am

                      The texts you cite prove nothing except that Jesus regarded the scriptures as the word of God providing needed nourishment for human life. They do not prove that Jesus held a theory of inspiration that precludes understanding the scriptures as the product of both divine and human action, nor do they prove that he understood every written word as being literally true. That he referred to Jonah as a sign doesn’t mean that he necessarily interpreted the story literally.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 11, 2013 at 9:06 pm

                      Mary, was Jesus speaking of a literal three days burial or not? Literal in burial, literal in fish. That’s a no-brainer so why don’t you have one? Satan has corrupted it. That’s why you have a corrupted biblical interpretation and wrong understanding.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 12, 2013 at 6:02 am

                      The reference in Matthew 12 doesn’t prove that Jesus believed that this story was literally and factually true. Besides, Jesus wasn’t in the tomb for 72 hours – a literal three days and three nights. And see Luke 11:29ff., where no mention is made of Jonah’s three days and three nights in the belly of the big fish – showing that the material was interpreted by the early Christian community and by the Gospel writers.

                      Attacking the intelligence of your opponent does exactly nothing to enhance the validity of your argument.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert October 13, 2013 at 10:58 am

                      Mary, you’re thinking western, not oriental. You should know that as smart as you’re supposed to be.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 14, 2013 at 5:20 am

                      The issues are clear enough, regardless of how one interprets the time reference: neither this text nor any of the others you cite proves that Jesus interpreted the Hebrew scriptures literally; and the Gospels reflect throughout a complex process of selecting, editing, interpreting – not simply a reporting of what Jesus of Nazareth said and did.

                    • Mary Vanderplas October 14, 2013 at 6:10 pm

                      Since when does the meaning intended by the ancient author matter to you?

      • Mary Vanderplas August 8, 2013 at 9:04 pm

        The purpose for which the “called-out ones” are called out is to be sent into the world as agents of God’s reconciling love. God’s act of reconciliation, according to Paul, embraces the whole of creation (Colossians 1:20). Your assertion that “God cannot save the whole world and still have a church” is patently ridiculous, in light of the church’s reason for being.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2013 at 11:25 am

          Mary, Christians are strangers and pilgrims on the earth seeking a better country wherein dwells holiness. They are not agents to bring in the Kingdom. They are a continual remnant. Do you need the verses that prove it so?

          • Mary Vanderplas August 11, 2013 at 6:30 am

            The church was never intended to be a separatist club – existing for the sake of itself, living in isolation from (and harboring a hostile attitude toward) the ungodly, committed to protecting its privileged status and the illusion of superiority to others. Yes, Christians are aliens, different from the world in the sense that we do not subscribe to the world’s values and ways but rather follow a different master. But we are resident aliens, very much in the world, even as Jesus – the Holy One of God – was involved in the world, loving and serving others, including the most unholy people.

            That the church is called out in order to be sent into the world for the sake of the world’s healing and reconciliation couldn’t be clearer (John 17:15-18). The New Testament writers are united in giving voice to the church’s essential task of being agents of God’s liberating and reconciling work in the world. Don’t waste your time citing verses out of context and twisted to mean something the authors never intended in order to “prove” your erroneous claims.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 14, 2013 at 9:33 pm

              Mary, you make an awful lot of {John 17: 18} As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

              Don’t waste YOUR time citing verses out of context and twisted to mean something the authors never intended in order to “prove” your erroneous claims.

              Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; {verse 20} is the reason of His sending them: that the “few” others might believe Jesus by THEIR WORD. They were eleven disciples, not the church. Jesus had NOT yet begun to build His church, therefore you cannot validly make your claim on John 17. Who’s using texts twisted from their contexts and history itself?

              • Mary Vanderplas August 15, 2013 at 6:01 am

                The disciples of Jesus formed the nucleus of the church, the called-out-and-sent ones. Moreover, John’s Gospel was written to and for the church at the end of the first century; Jesus’ words therein were written and read as the words of the risen Lord Jesus Christ to and for the church, not simply as a nice bit of history about one Jesus of Nazareth that had no bearing on the church’s identity and mission in the world. The commission to go into the world empowered by the Spirit is echoed in the Gospels and the book of Acts. That the church exists for the sake of the world God loves is an unmistakable biblical teaching.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2013 at 11:29 am

          Besides, Mary, your agent idea lacks the success of reality as >90% of the human population have already gone to hell.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2013 at 8:15 pm

          Mary, you reference Colossians 1:20, but what about verse 23?

          the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

          Don’t you see only the addressed Colossians reaped the benefit? Everybody else failed of the grace of God. Isn’t everybody else embraced by the whole creation? Verse 21 begins “and you” which is not the whole creation.

          Why will you not see human history proves God saves only the “few” He chose to save, whom He has elected to save? All others He lets perish.

          whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world {Revelation 17:8}

          Human history is natural revelation just as is the creation itself. God is glorified in both. He is glorified in not saving the majority. He is glorified in making the “few” a spectacle to the “many”. That was His plan from the beginning. If you don’t accept it you’re going to forever burn in hell.

          As I told Alice, this is not a laughing matter: it means heaven or hell the moment you physically die.

          • Mary Vanderplas August 11, 2013 at 6:54 am

            Human history has not yet ended. How God will work out his purposes for the final salvation of his human creatures remains to be seen. Colossians 1:23 doesn’t contradict or invalidate the claim in verse 20 that God’s act in Christ encompasses the whole creation.

      • Mary Vanderplas August 9, 2013 at 5:42 am

        I hope you’re doing better.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 10, 2013 at 4:03 pm

          Mary, I’d do a whole lot better if you all would get with God’s program to save only His elect remnant. I would suppose you’ve read Chronicles of Narnia and understood the intended meaning to be of Christian failure, restoration, warfare, and victory. Far deeper than C. S. Lewis is John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress detailing the condition of the lost before conversion, actual conversion, and then the struggles of the Christian life. Neither Lewis nor Bunyan make anything like your “agents of God’s reconciling love.”

          If you want to know how to truly be saved, read Pilgrim’s Progress.

          • Mary Vanderplas August 11, 2013 at 7:03 am

            I already know “how to be truly saved”: stop thinking about “how to be truly saved,” as though it depends on anything I do.

            • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2013 at 7:47 pm

              Mary, just a simple question: have you read Pilgrim’s Progress?

              • Mary Vanderplas August 14, 2013 at 5:25 am

                Yes.

    • Patrick Strickland August 10, 2013 at 7:58 pm

      Hi Lanny

      Since you commonly agree God made an eternal age of bliss, it only logically follows God made an age of eternal torment as the counterpart for the damned.

      Though I would have agreed with what you just said years ago I do not see how it logically fits together any more since God has sworn by himselfand his word has gone forth in righteousness that all the ends of the earth are going to look and be saved by bowing their knee and convenant swearing that in Him They have righteousness and strength. or as the new testament says that Jesus christ is Lord. Now every one is going to confess it and according to scripture it will bring them into eis the glory of God.

      Now to me I know you have heard me say this before but logically you must ask yourself why would God make it possible to ask in prayer for his will to be done and then guarantee that he will answer it if he does not intend to actually fulfill it?

      God wants us to pray his will and we Know from scripture that His will is to save all men so logically why would he make an age that never ends filled with torture when he wants to save all men AND HE WANTS US TO ASK HIM TO SAVE ALL MEN? To me it makes no sense logically or otherwise. and when I found from scriptures that torment is never described as endless then for me I can safely perceive that age of torment is not going to be endless, but has a definite beginning and an end when all men are finally saved. Unlike his life which is described as both aionios and endless.

      1Jn 5:14-15 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

      1Ti 2:1-8 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (7) Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. (8) I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

      For me God is raising up and qualifyinhg a few to become overcomers Like gideons 300 who will become the firstfruit the manifested sons of God who will bring ALL CREATION NOT JUST SOME BUT ALL CREATION INTO THE VERY SAME GLORY THAT THEY HAVE. These are the saviours that are going to be raised up on mount Zion that Obadiah saw.

      Oba 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.

      Paul described these manifested sons in Romans 8 and the work that was before them. God is not raising up a remnant to rub the noses of the wicked and continue to proclaim how holy they are and how unholy the wicked are. NO a thousand times No God is raising up a remnant to bring salvation to the whole creation.

      The idea that we are holy and you are not has always been a stench in God’s nose and he finds the idea abhorrent.

      Isa 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day.
      Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.

      Let me give you the entire context of Isiah 65 so you can fully understand
      Isa 65:1-7 I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. (2) I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; (3) A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; (4) Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine’s flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; (5) Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. (6) Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, (7) Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2013 at 2:05 am

        Patrick says, Now to me I know you have heard me say this before but logically you must ask yourself why would God make it possible to ask in prayer for his will to be done and then guarantee that he will answer it if he does not intend to actually fulfill it?

        The simple answer is understanding God elected to save just a few and those are for whom His believers are to pray. He will certainly save His Elect wherever and whenever they dwell on this earth.

        • Lanny A. Eichert August 11, 2013 at 2:07 am

          Patrick, follow Jesus’ example

          I pray not for the world {John 17: 9}

        • Patrick Strickland August 15, 2013 at 3:54 pm

          Can you show me the scripture that says that God only saves the elect?

          This is another idea you believe that I cannot find anywhere in scripture. Can you help me out and show me where that scripture is that says that only the elect are going to be saved.

          Let me see when Paul said in I timothy to pray for ALL men you think that means only the elect I think you should check out the context because the elect are not mentioned at all

          1Ti 2:1-4 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; (2) For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. (3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

          Your version is not supported by that scripture at all. can you supply the scripture that does state what you did about prayer for the elect?

          Grace and peace patrick

          • Lanny A. Eichert August 19, 2013 at 2:30 pm

            Patrick, your 1Ti 2:1-4 quote does NOT say to pray for their salvation, either. The stated purpose is only that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. That assumes they continue in unbelief without bugging us.

            • Patrick Strickland August 24, 2013 at 2:48 pm

              LOL

              Lanny How did Jesus teach us to pray dear sir?

              Mat 6:5-17 KJV
              (5) And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
              (6) But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
              (7) But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
              (8) Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
              (9) After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
              (10) Thy kingdom come. THY WILL BE DONE IN EARTH, AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.
              (11) Give us this day our daily bread.
              (12) And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
              (13) And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
              (14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
              (15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
              (16) Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
              (17) But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;

              Jesus teaches us to pray that the Father’s will, will be done in this earth, as it is done in heaven.
              Paul tells us what the Father will is that we are to pray for all men: The Father will have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
              John tells us that we will have what we pray for as long as we are praying the Father’s will.

              Sorry Lanny I think I will follow Jesus teachings concerning praying for the will of the Father to be done: by praying the will of God that Paul declares for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth., and I will expect an answer from God just like john promised.

              • Lanny A. Eichert August 25, 2013 at 12:05 am

                Patrick, you know you are piecing together texts that don’t belong together. You assume what is not stated in 1Timothy 2:1-4. You can prove ANYTHING by your method of chaining texts together.

                • Patrick Strickland August 29, 2013 at 5:22 pm

                  Actually I am practicing what the prophet Isaiah and Paul said to do.

                  Isaiah when talking about those who have erred declares how to enter into his rest when studying the word of God… whom shall HE teach knowledge, whom shall he teach doctrine? them that are weaned from milk.

                  Isa 28:7-14 KJV But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment. (8) For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean. (9) Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. (10) FOR PRECEPT MUST BE UPON PRECEPT, PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT; LINE UPON LINE,LINE UPON LINE; HERE A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE: (11) For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (12) To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. (13) But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. (14) Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

                  Paul said that we are to compare spiritual with spiritual. He did not teach us to compare just the literal with literal to come to an understanding of the spirit.

                  1Co 2:12-14 KJV Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

                  If you noticed I only compared two precepts “prayer” and “the will of the Father” both precepts were in every set of verses I quoted. Each set of verses brought out a different aspect of praying the will of the Father. Jesus taught us to pray the will of the father to be done in this earth as it is in heaven; John told us that if we pray anything according to his will he hears us and we SHALL HAVE WHAT WE PRAY FOR: And Paul tells us to pray for ALL men and then immediately afterwards tells us the Father’s will so we can pray the Fathers WILL for ALL men.

                  By comparing spiritual with spiritual you cannot just prove anything that you want to. Our want is not even in the picture…by comparing spiritual with spiritual you are actually allowing the Holy Spirit to teach you just what he wants to teach you. If the holy spirit is actually teaching you then you are only going to see and understand exactly what he wants to teach you.

                  THE NATURAL MIND NO MATTER HOW RELIGIOUS IT MIGHT BE CANNOT RECEIVE THIS MEAT. Most of todays churches are still on the milk of the word and have never come to the place where they are eating meat and allowing the holy spirit to teach them.

            • Patrick Strickland August 24, 2013 at 3:02 pm

              I noticed you did not answer my questions concerning the elect, if you don’t mind could you provide those scriptures I asked for? Here are the questions again

              Can you show me the scripture that says that God only saves the elect?
              Can you supply the scripture that does state what you did about prayer for the elect?

              • Lanny A. Eichert August 25, 2013 at 1:14 am

                All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. {John 6: 37}

                No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. {John 6: 44}

                And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. {John 6: 65}

                For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {Romans 8: 29 & 30}

                For being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth {Romans 9: 11}

                Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles {Romans 9: 24}

                • Patrick Strickland August 29, 2013 at 6:53 pm

                  1. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. {John 6: 37}”
                  “And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. {John 6: 65}”

                  Neither of these verses you quote mentions that God saves only the elect. However they do mention that You of your own free will cannot come to Jesus unless it is given to you of the father to do it.

                  How many does the Father give unto Jesus?

                  All men are given to Christ. “Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for thy inheritance, and the uttermost part of the earth for thy possession.” Ps. 2:8. “The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.” John 3:35. “All things” here means all intelligent beings: so say the best Commentators.
                  “All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.” Mat 11:27 “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;” Joh 13:3

                  God hath given all things to Christ that he might save them. “Thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.” John 17:2. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” John 6:37. From these passages we learn: First, that all things are given to Christ that he may give them eternal life. Second, that all shall come to him and receive that boon, and none shall be cast out.

                  2. “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. {John 6: 44}”

                  Again no mention of God saving only the elect. The Father must be the one who draws us to Jesus we cannot come on our own free will. Without the father drawing us we cannot come to Jesus.

                  Now is there any passage that tells how many that will be drawn to Jesus?

                  Absolutely yes to that:

                  “And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.” Joh 12:32-33 All mankind must be drawn to Jesus in the Father”s timing.

                  3. “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. {Romans 8: 29 & 30}”

                  No mention of God saving only the elect in that verse.

                  Who did God not foreknow? No one…; He foreknew every man woman and child ever birthed and who will be birthed into this earth. All he foreknew is predestinated to share in His marvelous glory. Even the previous context declares that ALL creation is travailing for the manifestation of the sons of God so that they can receive the very same glory that they have received. In context all are saved and glorified.

                  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God (into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God). For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
                  (Rom 8:18-31 KJV)

                  I have to go but I will finish with the last two verses later.

                  Grace and peace Patrick

                • Patrick Strickland September 4, 2013 at 5:47 pm

                  4. “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) (Rom 9:11 KJV)
                  Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Rom 9:24 KJV)”

                  This is the best set of scriptures that seem to actually say only the elect get saved. I applaud you for bringing up chapter nine of Romans. If that is the only chapter you read then it is easy to see how you can come to the belief that God only saves the elect. But unfortunately for you the context does not end at the end of the chapter, but continues for two more chapters where we find something entirely different in view.

                  Overall Israel was blinded except the elect.

                  Rom 11:2 LEB God HAS NOT REJECTED HIS PEOPLE, WHOM HE FOREKNEW! Or do you not know, in the passage about [*The words “the passage about” are not in the Greek text, but are supplied for clarity] Elijah, what the scripture says—how he appeals to God against Israel?
                  Rom 11:3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life!” [A quotation from 1 Kgs 19:10, 14]
                  Rom 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people [Or perhaps “males,” referring to men only] who have not bent the knee to Baal.” [A quotation from 1 Kgs 19:18]
                  Rom 11:5 So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace [Literally “according to selection of grace”].
                  Rom 11:6 But if by grace, it is no longer by works, for otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

                  Rom 11:7 ¶ What then? What Israel was searching for, this it did not obtain. But the elect obtained it , and the rest were hardened,
                  Rom 11:8 just as it is written,
                  “God gave them a spirit of stupor,
                  eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear,
                  until this very day.” [A quotation from Deut 29:4; Isa 29:10]

                  So far this sounds just like what you are saying. However continuing to read further in the chapter reveals something else entirely

                  Rom 11:11 LEB ¶ I say then, they did not stumble so that they fell, did they ? [*The negative construction in Greek anticipates a negative answer here] May it never be! But by their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles, IN ORDER TO PROVOKE THEM to jealousy . [*The words “to jealousy” are not in the Greek text, but are supplied for clarity]
                  Rom 11:12 And if their trespass means riches for the world and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fullness mean ?

                  Rom 11:13 Gentile Branches Grafted in
                  ¶ Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Therefore, inasmuch as I am apostle to the Gentiles, I promote my ministry,
                  Rom 11:14 if somehow I may provoke my people to jealousy and save some of them.
                  Rom 11:15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will THEIR ACCEPTANCE MEAN EXCEPT LIFE TROM THE DEAD?

                  THE ELECT DID NOT FALL! THE ELECT DID NOT GET CAST OFF!!! Only the rest of the Jews who God hardened did, and they will be given an opportunity to be grafted back in. Their acceptance back is LIFE FROM THE DEAD. The branches that were broken off because of unbelief died, yet we read that they will have an opportunity to be grafted back in.

                  Rom 11:23 And those also, if they do not persist in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God is able to graft them in again.
                  Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are natural branches [Literally “by nature”] be grafted into their own olive tree?
                  Rom 11:25 All Israel to be Saved
                  ¶ For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, [Literally “in yourselves”] that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
                  Rom 11:26 and so ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, just as it is written,
                  “The deliverer will come out of Zion;
                  he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
                  Rom 11:27 And this is the covenant from me with them [A quotation from Isa 59:20–21]
                  when I take away their sins.” [A quotation from Isa 27:9; Jer 31:33–34]
                  Rom 11:28 ¶ With respect to the gospel, they are enemies for your sake, but with respect to election, they are dearly loved for the sake of the fathers.
                  Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

                  In chapter 9:27 we have a remnant elect saved; but in chapter 11:26 we have ALL ISRAEL SAVED. All Israel was called to be a kingdom of priests EXO 19:6. And since the gifts and callings of God are without repentance then ALL ISRAEL WILL eventually BE SAVED IN HIS TIMING SO THAT THEY CAN BE A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS. Right now only the elect are being saved, and in God’s sovereign plan and wisdom the rest are blinded and their hearts are hardened by him till the appointed time. In context that is first the Jews and those gentiles who accept Jesus as their savior; everyone else is blinded by God till in His timing he is ready to accept the Jews he cast off back, and when he does it literally will be life from the dead for all creation. This clearly is an example of an after death repentance found in this chapter. But the chapter does not end there. We are clearly told that God confines ALL in disobedience, in order that He can have mercy on them ALL. God’s mercy on all is not tormenting for all eternity those he blinded. That is not the mercy described throughout the bible: but His mercy is allowing them all the opportunity to be grafted back in.

                  Rom 11:30 LEB For just as you formerly were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of the disobedience of these,
                  Rom 11:31 so also these have now been disobedient for your mercy, in order that they also may now be shown mercy.
                  Rom 11:32 For God confined them all in disobedience, in order that he could HAVE MERCY ON THEM ALL.

                  WHEN I read the whole context of chapters 8-11 there is absolutely no way I personally can accept that God only saves just a few the elect and tortures the rest for all eternity. In this dispensation of time … in this age we live in right now it appears that God does not save all men, but only just the elect: for a specific purpose of qualifying them and preparing them to become manifested sons of God who will be used by God to bring ALL CREATION into the very same liberty of glory through the mercy of God that they have received.
                  Unfortunately You have failed to provide any verse so far that actually says that God only saves the elect and tortures the rest for all eternity. I will grant you that you came close with that last set but in context the remnant will continue to be saved and the rest blinded till the fullness of the gentiles comes and those who were blinded and broken off by God are accepted back and grafted back in. Right now we are living in an age when the elect are the only ones being saved and it has been that way since the cross of Christ but it will not continue forever as you assume, Romans 11 will not allow that interpretation. A remnant is being saved but eventually in God’s timing All Israel will be saved including those who were broken off because of unbelief, and all men who die in Adam will be the very same all men who will be made alive in Christ when God reconciles all into Christ. Roman 5; Col 1:16-22
                  Do you have any more scriptures that you want to bring up that you think say that God only saves the elect?

                  I hope you take the time to really think about what I have said, because more is going on in scripture then what you or I can possibly dream.

                  Grace and peace Patrick

              • Lanny A. Eichert August 29, 2013 at 7:16 pm

                Alice & Patrick, Titus 1: 1 shows the gospel is only for the Elect.

                Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness

                You see Paul is an apostle of Jesus Christ according to the faith of God’s elect and there is no such thing as the faith of God’s non-elect anywhere in Scripture. The gospel is ONLY for the Elect and when it is preached to the world only the Elect respond to the Gospel in their due time.

                In this text faith is in the accusative and kata with the accusative means the place through which anything is done or extended. The place of Paul’s Gospel ministry is only the place of the faith of God’s Elect. He ministers the Gospel only to the Elect. Obviously when people get saved it proves they are Elect.

                Now it seems you know the Elect are those who get saved during this mortality and doesn’t mean anybody else who physically dies without confessing Christ. Therefore since there are no Elect in the after-life of those who died without confessing Christ, there is no salvation after physical death for the non-elect.

                Again this means that all the >90% who have died in all of human history to date without confessing Christ will forever burn in the Lake of Fire without remedy. There is no salvation for them because they are among the non-elect. They are eternally lost.

                • Patrick Strickland September 7, 2013 at 7:55 pm

                  Hi Lanny,

                  Did you not notice that Paul speaking to Titus did not say in verse one that God ONLY saves the elect but tortures the rest forever. You assume and read into the passage more then what is actually there. And I can agree with much of what you say in the first 4 paragraphs: with the exception of the first paragraph and the last two paragraphs which are filled with just opinion that is not supported by clear statements of scripture. God clearly gives sight and hearing in this age to only a few who are chosen. Romans 9-10 But in Paul’s writings He never leaves it to just this age we are living in. Romans 11 Furthermore, Paul said a very interesting thing to Timothy in chapter 4 that clearly contradicts your conclusion you present in your last post.

                  This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach.
                  (1Ti 4:9-11 KJV)

                  For your assumption to be true then that scripture must read that God is NOT the saviour of all men but ONLY those that believe; but it clearly does not. Unfortunately for you there is absolutely no verse that clearly states exactly that truth. If there would have been you would have already brought it up and paraded it as proof.

                  (JUB) But the angel said unto them, Fear not; for, behold, I bring you a gospel of great joy, which shall be to all the people. Luke 2:10

                  In this age we are living in the type and shadow kinsman redeemer of the old testament is being fully manifested in the reality of Christ our Kinsman redeemer. And as the type only those who ask for help from their willing kinsman redeemer received help and redeemed back their inheritance they had lost for what ever the reason may have been. Only those who God has chosen, those who are elect are being drawn and given understanding through Christ our redeemer. Only those who ask him to be their redeemer are being redeemed at this time. However the reality of that Type and shadow of the year of Jubilee points to has not been fulfilled yet and the Year of jubilee is where ALL prisoners are released all debts are forgiven and all men return back to their inheritance if they have lost it. The redeemed become the manifest sons of god and help to bring ALL creation into the liberty of the glory they have received. This was a special day that occurred only once ever fifty years. What I am preaching is a year of jubilee message for all men and a kinsman redeemer for all who can receive him now.

                  Sadly the church because of the traditions of men do not preach the gospel of great joy to all men but they teach a gospel of great terror for most men that only takes into account this age of the kinsman redeemer which we live in and confines all who do not come to their redeemer to a burning hell forever.

                  Your whole post is based upon a logical fallacy you have at least two apriorism fallacies involved in your last post. In his book “How to Win Every Argument the use and abuse of logic “ author Madsen Pirie says concerning apiorism “Normally we allow facts to be the test of our principles. When we see what the facts are, we can retain or modify our principles. To start out with principles from the first (a priori) and to use them as the basis for accepting or rejecting facts is to do it the wrong way round. It is to commit the fallacy of apriorism.”

                  The difference between the two is the difference between exegesis and isogesis: Reading just what the verse is saying and reading into the verse what you want it to say.

                  One you assume there is no after death repentance, and that death somehow dis-annuls what Jesus did for all mankind at the cross as described in scripture then you can accept or reject any fact that affirm or contradicts that first assumption. But when asked to provide the facts ie the verses that state exactly what you believe you cannot provide any verse that clearly states exactly what you claim for either of those propositions. This should be clear proof to you that something is horribly wrong with what you are preaching as truth.

                  Second you hold to the principle that God Only saves the elect yet when asked to provide that verse that states that you again fail to provide any that says just that when found in its context. If cannot provide any passage in scripture that clearly states that God only saves the elect and tortures the rest forever then you again are faced with what should be clear proof that something needs to be fixed in your thinking.

                  If your primary principle is clearly there then you should have no problem actually finding verses that actually state it
                  If the facts fit then your principle will stand but if the facts do not fit your principle then insisting the principle you hold unto is still true is a sure method of deceiving yourself. Please allow the facts to change your principles instead of letting your principles dictate what you accept as truth.

  • Patrick Strickland August 15, 2013 at 4:12 pm

    Was Jesus praying for the salvation of the believer in John 17? no in context Jesus was praying for the believer to understand something that Jesus was giving them the glory that he had received and that that glory would cause them to KNOW that they are one with the father and Jesus EVEN AS they are one with each other.

    Now have you followed Jesus and prayed for the glory so that you may know that you are one with them even as they are one? If you have not then you are not doing the will of God.

    The fact is I have never heard any preacher in the baptist denomination say that they can be one with the father and the son even as they are one. In point of fact they put Jesus upon a pedestal and lift him up so high and say you will never be like him. Which is exactly opposite of what Jesus prayed.

    Jesus did not pray for the salvation of any one in that verse in question. and to take it out of context and say I need to follow Jesus example and not pray for the world so they can be saved is foolishness when the spirit of Christ in Paul inspired him to declare that we should pray for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

    When I pray that verse in John 17 I want all men who claim to believe to receive the glory so that they can KNOW that they are one with the Father even as they are one.

    See you forget one thing Jesus christ is the word of God and he was sent into this world for a purpose.

    1Jn 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    Now the word is not going to return to Father void but he shall accomplish what he was sent to do as Isaiah testifies.

    Isa_55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it

    The Word (Jesus) who was sent to save the world is not going to return back to God without accomplishing what he sent to do. If he does then Jesus and the Father are both losers and epic failures. That is not my God he did not fail, because love never fails.

    1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert August 19, 2013 at 2:41 pm

    Patrick, “the spirit of Christ in Paul inspired him to declare that we should pray for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth” is not what your 1Ti 2:1-4 says. Verses 3 & 4 are not instructions of what to pray, but rather statements about God. Verses 1 & 2 are instructions to specifically pray with a purpose to minimize persecution.

    • Patrick Strickland August 24, 2013 at 2:54 pm

      How do you minimize persecutions dear sir but by praying that they get saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

      When Jesus taught man how to pray He specifically stated that we should ask the Father for his kingdom to come, and for HIS WILL to be done in earth as it is done in heaven. Matthew 6:6-15. JESUS SPECIFICALLY TAUGHT US TO PRAY FOR THE FATHER’S WILL TO BE DONE IN THIS EARTH. This is something we should be actively doing in our prayer life seeking God’s will to be done in the earth.

      Paul in I Timothy 2 verse 1 states that we should pray for ALL men and in verse 2 gives an example of praying for leaders specifically. No where does he say we should ONLY pray for just our leaders. In verse 3 he says that this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour. In verse 4 pay particular attention to the fact he tells us God’s WILL which is He WILL HAVE all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth . Verse 1 and 2 does not tell us what to pray for when we pray for ALL MEN. But if we are doing what Jesus taught us to do and that is to pray for his will to be done in earth as it is in heaven then verse 4 takes on a entirely greater and magnificent meaning then just a statement of God’s will, it now takes on what God wants us to pray for; which is for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth since God WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH!!!

      Now John also gets a hold of Jesus teaching concerning praying the WILL of God being done and adds by the spirit that if we ask for anything according to his WILL he hears us and if he hears us then WE HAVE WHAT WE ASK FOR!!! I John 5:14,15 So any verse that states God’s will we should be able to pray with full confidence that we shall receive an answer, and that answer will always be exactly what we have prayed for as long as it is according to God’s will.

      Jesus teaches us to pray for God’s will to be done in earth as it is in heaven.
      Paul teaches us what God’s will is that we are to pray for all men.
      John takes it from just praying God ‘s will to actually giving us confidence that we shall receive what we pray for.

      I for one will pray God’s will for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth…Will you?

      One last thing James warns us that if we are not doing the will of God we are deceiving ourselves. James 1:22-24 I for one do not want to be deceived so I will do the will of God and pray his will be done in earth as it is in heaven… Will you?

      • Lanny A. Eichert August 25, 2013 at 12:19 am

        Patrick, you do deceive yourself since all men do not have faith to be saved. Those who pray I Timothy 2 your way don’t see their prayers answered. Many rulers have died in unbelief, many many more than have been converted. Your view of this text is proven false by history. Face it and modify your view to reality. Instead however you want to prove a false universal salvation which is contrary to human history and current events.

        Look again at 2 Thessalonians 3: 2 which also doesn’t tell any one to pray that all men be saved.

        • Patrick Strickland September 4, 2013 at 5:43 pm

          Hi Lanny

          Faith only comes by hearing an “rhema” word that is proceeding out of the mouth of Jesus or the Father. If most men have never heard the Father or Jesus then it is no wonder that they have no faith, yet and are resisting what he is doing. No wonder we must pray for deliverance from men who are out of place and (hurtful) evil.

          Those of us who have heard a word proceeding forth from the mouth of God are to live by faith and not by sight. Faith does not come by looking at the circumstances occurring around us, or which has occurred in the past. This will destroy faith. Faith believes just what you have heard proceeding out of the mouth of God and does not consider the circumstances surrounding it, and fully looks forward to it’s fulfillment despite what is going on around it.

          History has not proven anything yet because history is not over. Not all have been reconciled into Christ yet. Not every knee has bowed and every tongue has confessed that in him they have righteousness and strength, not every one has been gathered into Christ as scripture demands must occur. History only proves that we are in Romans 9, 10 where God seems to only saves a remnant and blinds the rest and casts them off, however that is not the end found clearly in scripture: History has not yet come to the age described in Romans 8 and 11, when all those blinded by God are restored, the branches that were broken off are accepted and received back and grafted in, and all creation is brought into the liberty of the glory of the manifested sons of God. What you are seeing God do in this age and for the last two thousand years since Christ died at the cross is not what he is planing to to continue to do in the next age.

          Lanny has said “Look again at 2 Thessalonian 3:2 which also doesn’t tell any one to pray that all men be saved.”

          Does every prayer in the new testament have to have us pray for all men to be saved in it, or do they each tell us other things we should be praying for? This prayer in 2 Thessalonian follows the lord’s prayer that Jesus taught us but only touches one area “deliver us from evil”, does that mean we are to ignore the rest of the Lords prayer just for this one aspect? Are we to ignore praying the father’s will because it is not mentioned there? Are we to forget forgiving those who trespass against us because 2 Thessalonian does not mention it? Are we to forget asking God to supply our daily needs because 2 Thessalonians 3:2 does not mention it either? Absolutely not. There are many things that the Lords prayer teaches us to pray for, but only praying the Father’s will is guaranteed an answer. If he does not answer what he has promised then God becomes like a man …nothing but a liar. It seems to me that you would much rather have God become a liar then for you to give up the tradition of men that you hold onto for dear life. But then again I fully recognize that you cannot let them go till you hear him speak and draw you to this particular truth.

          What about God’s faith will anyone’s doubt and unbelief make His faith void?

          No one’s Doubt and unbelief will stop the faith of God from coming to pass and make it ineffective.

          For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
          (Rom 3:3-4 KJV)

          • Lanny A. Eichert September 8, 2013 at 11:01 pm

            Patrick, Romans 3: 3 the faith of God is not God’s personal faith. God does not Himself have faith. He knows. Since He knows all things, He does nothing by faith. The faith of God is the whole body of truth and in the context it is the oracles of God, the written Word of God, here specifically the Old Testament Scriptures which you cannot make without effect by denying God kept it perfectly transmitted through the centuries so that today we have every word exactly as originally given.

            Dear Patrick, it accurately states unbelievers burn for eternity without remedy. The fact that you will not believe it doesn’t change the truth of eternal torment. That’s what Romans 3: 4 & 4 is telling you. Your “not believing” doesn’t change the Bible one bit. It is still true regardless of your unbelief. That way God is justified in His sayings when men try to judge God. Jesus is God and He said, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} Every word He spoke is justified eternal truth and He overcomes your heresy. That’s the meaning of Romans 3: 3, 4 which is far remove from your intended useage.

            • Patrick Strickland September 10, 2013 at 4:47 pm

              I know that you believe that God does not have faith but I for one cannot accept that as true. The idea that God does not have faith is not an idea I have not heard before. I have heard this idea many times before in fact. I have many reasons to reject that idea and all based upon scriptures. I do not have the time or the room to cover all the reasons I reject it but I will give you a few reasons.
              There are three main words translated faith: 2 in the Hebrew ’emuwn, and ’emuwnah;and one in the Greek pistis
              According to the Theological Workbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) this is the definition of the words translated as faith and their related words
              “116.0 aman to confirm, support, uphold (Qal); to be established, be faithful (Niphal); to be certain, i.e. to believe in Hiphil). …

              emuwn faithful, trusting.
              ’emuwnah firmness, fidelity, steadiness.

              This very important concept in biblical doctrine gives clear evidence of the biblical meaning of “faith” in contradistinction to the many popular concepts of the term. At the heart of the meaning of the root is the idea of CERTAINITY. And this is borne out by the NT definition of faith found in Heb 11:1.

              The basic root idea is firmness or certainty. In the Qal it expresses the basic concept of support and is used in the sense of the strong arms of the parent supporting the helpless infant. The constancy involved in the verbal idea is further seen in that it occurs in the Qal only as a participle (expressing continuance). The idea of support is also seen in 2Kings 18:16, where it refers to pillars of support.

              In the Hiphil (causative), it basically means “to cause to be certain, sure” or “to be certain about,” “to be assured.” In this sense the word in the Hiphil conjugation is the biblical word for “to believe” and shows that BIBLICAL FAITH IS AN ASSURANCE, A CERTAINTY, IN CONTRAST WITH MODERN CONCEPTS OF FAITH AS SOMETHING POSSIBLE, HOPEFULLY TRUE, BUT NOT CERTAIN.

              Following from this we find the word in the passive Qal participle used with a passive meaning “one who is established” or “one who is confirmed,” i.e. “faithful one” (2Sam 20:19; Psa 12:1 [H 2]; Psa 31:23 [H 24]).

              In the Niphal conjugation the meaning is “to be established” (2Sam 7:16; 1Chr 17:23; 2Chr 6:17; Isa 7:9). The Niphal participle means “to be faithful, sure, dependable” and describes believers (Num 12:7; 1Sam 2:35; Neh 9:8). This form is also used to describe that upon which all certainty rests: God himself (Deut 7:9), and his covenant (Psa 89:28 [H 29]).

              One interesting illustration of the relationship between “belief” and “being established” is seen in Isa 7:9. Ahaz is told that unless he believes (Hiphil) he will not be established (Niphal), i.e. without faith he has no stability.

              The various derivatives reflect the same concept of certainty and dependability. The derivative Amón “verily” is carried over into the New Testament in the word amón which is our English word “amen.” Jesus used the word frequently (Mt 5:18, 26 etc.) to stress the certainty of a matter. The Hebrew and Greek forms come at the end of prayers and hymns of praise (Psa 41:13 [H 14]; Psa 106:48; 2Tim 4:18; Rev 22:20 etc.). This indicates that the term so used in our prayers ought to express certainty and assurance in the Lord to whom we pray. …

              Emuwnah. Firmness, faithfulness, fidelity (ASV, RSV generally the same. Both give a marginal note in Hab 2:4 where they translate “faith” instead of “faithfulness” in accord with Paul’s use of the verse in Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11.)

              There are at least ten distinct categories in which this noun is used in Scripture. In its first occurrence in Scripture it expresses the sense of steady, firm hands, a very basic idea (Exo 17:12). From this mundane sense, SCRIPTURE MOVES ALMOST ENTIRELY TO A USE OF THE WORD IN CONNECTION WITH GOD OR THOSE RELATED TO GOD….

              Basically, the term applies to God himself (Deut 32:4) to express his total dependability. IT IS FREQUENTLY LISTED AMONG THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD (1Sam 26:23; Psa 36:5 [H 6]; Psa 40:10 [H 11]; Lam 3:23). It describes his works (Psa 33:4); and his words (Psa 119:86; Psa 143:1).

              Emuwnah. is also used to refer to those whose lives God establishes. He expects to see faithfulness in them (Prov 12:22; 2Chr 19:9). Indeed, such faithfulness or a life of faith is characteristic of those justified in God’s sight (Hab 2:4). God’s word of truth establishes man’s way of truth or faithfulness (Psa 119:30).

              From this we can also see the concept of a duty being entrusted to a believer which becomes his trust (faithful responsibility, 1Chr 9:22; 2Chr :15; etc.) or office.

              Emeth Truth, faithfulness, verity. (ASV and RSV usually the same.) This word carries underlying sense of certainty, dependability.

              We find it used in several categories of contexts, all of which relate to God directly or indirectly.

              First, it is frequently applied to God as a characteristic of his nature. In Gen 24:27, for example, it describes God who leads Abraham’s servant to the right wife for Isaac. In Exo 34:6, it is given as one of the verbal descriptions of God which constitute God’s goodness. Other examples are Psa 25:5; Psa 31:5 [H 6]; Jer 4:2; Jer 10:10.

              It is a term fittingly applied to God’s words (Psa 119:142, 151, 160; Dan 10:21).

              As a characteristic of God revealed to men, it therefore becomes the means by which men know and serve God as their savior (Josh 24:14; Kings 2:4; Psa 26:3; Psa 86:11; Psa 91:4; Isa 38:3), and then, as a characteristic to be found in those who have indeed come to God (Exo :21; Neh 7:2; Psa 15:2; Zech 8:16).

              Because it is an attribute of God which is manifest in man’s salvation and life of service as God’s child, the word is often coupled with another attribute of God related to our salvation, “mercy” or “love” (Áesed, Gen 24:27; Psa 61:7 [H 8]; Psa 85:10 [H 11]; Psa 115:1; Prov :22; Prov 16:6; Prov 20:28).

              And because these attributes of God’s truth and mercy lead to God’s peace toward sinful men, saved by God’s grace, the word is also often coupled with peace (Isa 39:8; Jer 33:6).

              As we study its various contexts, it becomes manifestly clear that there is NO TRUTH in the biblical sense, i.e. valid truth, OUTSIDE GOD. ALL TRUTH COMES FROM GOD AND IS TRUTH BECAUSE IT IS RELATED TO GOD. “end quote

              Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the JUST shall live by his FAITH (emuwnah). (Hab 2:4 KJV)

              Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth (emuwnah- FAITH) and without iniquity, JUST and right is he.

              The Just shall live by his faith, by his truth; and God himself lives by this very same principle which he has established since he is just and a God of emuwnah:faith-truth. God does not live one way and expects us to live a completely different way. With the exception of vengence God wants us to share in his divine life of love, faith, wisdom, peace joy, meekness, mercy, etc And the standard of life he holds himself to, he holds us to once Christ starts to live through us. Now the words Faith, faithful, faithfulness, and truth are deeply related in the Hebrew in fact the word emuwnah is translated as all of them. Faith-truth is not subjective to just what we want it to be,…what we declare to be truth; but is totally dependent upon God AND WHAT HE DECLARES IS TRUTH. THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY GOD’S FAITH-TRUTH! Our faith is his faith our truth is his truth. We serve a Just God of truth-faith

              Galatians 2:20 verifies this wonderful fact.

              Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

              The Life of Jesus must be manifested in our mortal flesh. We must die so He must live through us and as we have the same SPIRIT OF FAITH HE HAS, IT WILL. FAITH IS A SPIRIT from God and is not just a byproduct that only men have. If we don’t die in him then His life and faith will not be seen in us.

              2Co 4:11-13 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. So then death worketh in us, but life in you. We having the SAME SPIRIT OF FAITH, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

              Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established here is another verse from the old testament that proves that all the works of the Lord are done in faith-truth.

              For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth (emuwnah-faith). (Psa 33:4 KJV)

              If God does not have faith then why does scripture declare that all his works are done in emuwnah truth-faith? This verse alone completely contradicts your supposition that he does not have faith.

              I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness (emuwnah TRUTH- FAITH) and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy loving kindness and thy truth (emeth) from the great congregation. (Psa 40:10 KJV)

              These are just a few verses There are many more that verify this wonderful truth of God’s nature.

              We are partakers of his divine nature and faith is a fruit that grows in us as we abide in the vine of his life. Faith would never be produced in us if He did not have faith as an aspect of his divine nature to begin with to share with us.

              I do not mean to be rude to you dear sir but in light of the scriptural evidence available your last post seems to be based upon a lie someone sold you and is not truly biblical. God clearly has faith and it is absolutely no accident that Romans 3 after declaring that fact says that let every man be a liar yea let GOD BE TRUE. When you truly understand how closely truth and faith are related, then you can begin to see that verse three is actually speaking about God’s faith and not our own faith in him. As Deut 32:4 said we serve a God of truth (emuwnah- FAITH). So let every man be a liar yea but let God be true. Whatever He has faith for is going to be done and that is a certainty, with no question of it not happening.

              Now if you want to continue to believe that God does not have faith then go ahead I won’t stop you from believing something I absolutely cannot believe because I cannot find the God you speak of in the scriptures.

              Please take the time to read very carefully and most importantly prayerfully

              Grace and Peace Patrick

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 11, 2013 at 1:45 pm

                Patrick, the faith that believers have is the Word of God in which they trust beyond themselves. They trust in the truthfulness of One superior to themselves. They trust in Another THAN themselves. There is no such thing for God. God cannot trust in someone greater than Himself because there is no such person. God does not have Another to trust.

                • Patrick Strickland September 12, 2013 at 8:02 pm

                  To assume that faith only exists from an inferior towards a greater, and therefor assume that the greater (GOD) does not have faith because there is no one greater then God, shows me that you would rather believe your carnal thinking then what the Word of God clearly declares about God being a God of emuwnah-(TRUTH- FAITH). (Deut. 32:4) And ALL His works are done in emuwnah-(TRUTH- FAITH). (Psa 33:4 KJV) GOD DOES NOT NEED A GREATER FOR HIM TO EXPRESS HIS FAITH AND TRUTH. HE shows the world HIS FAITH AND TRUTH BY DECLARING THE END FROM THE BEGINNING AND DOING GREAT AND MIGHTY THINGS in this earth AND SHARING HIS DIVINE NATURE WITH US SO WE CAN DO THE WORKS OF GOD WITH HIM.

                  And as the TWOT declared concerning the word Emuwnah:

                  “…SCRIPTURE MOVES ALMOST ENTIRELY TO A USE OF THE WORD IN CONNECTION WITH GOD OR THOSE RELATED TO GOD….Basically, the term applies to God himself (Deut 32:4) to express his total dependability. IT IS FREQUENTLY LISTED AMONG THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD (1Sam 26:23; Psa 36:5 [H 6]; Psa 40:10 [H 11]; Lam 3:23). It describes his works (Psa 33:4); and his words (Psa 119:86; Psa 143:1)….”

                  Did you catch that last part Emuwnah-(truth- FAITH) is FREQUENTLY LISTED AMONG THE ATTRIBUTES OF GOD HIMSELF.

                  If anyone ignores or throws out any idea based upon scripture because it does not match our preconceived ideas about faith then you can be absolutely sure that that person is walking in deception and they don’t even realize it.

                  May the eyes of your understanding be opened to His truth. Yea let every man be a liar yet let GOD BE TRUE!!!

                  Grace and peace
                  Your servant in Christ Patrick

                  • Lanny A. Eichert September 16, 2013 at 1:29 am

                    Patrick, you forget you gave the following definitions
                    emuwn faithful, trusting.
                    ‘emuwnah firmness, fidelity, steadiness.
                    There is a big difference between faith and faithfulness. With reference to God faithfulness, not faith, is the correct rendering to mean firmness, steadiness, trustworthy, total dependability.

                    You are straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel. Choose the right word, will you?

                    • Patrick Strickland September 20, 2013 at 6:04 pm

                      No Lanny I have not forgotten the definitions that the TWOT gave for the word in question. Actually there is not a great difference between FAITH AND FAITHFUL as the websters dictionary declares.

                      Websters dictionary copyright 1828 in it’s definition of faith declares as it’s 9th definition of the word faith:

                      9. Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises.

                      The very first definition of faithful is the basically the same thing.
                      1. Firm in adherence to the truth and to the duties of religion.
                      2. Firmly adhering to duty; of true fidelity; loyal; true to allegiance; as a faithful subject.

                      3. constant in the performance of duties or services; exact in attending to commands; as a faithful servant.

                      4. Observant of compact, treaties, contracts, vows or other engagements; true to one’s word. A government should be faithful to its treaties; individuals, to their word.

                      5. True; exact; in conformity to the letter and spirit; as a faithful execution of a will.

                      6. True to the marriage covenant; as a faithful wife or husband.

                      7. Conformable to truth; as a faithful narrative or representation.

                      8. Constant; not fickle; as a faithful lover or friend.

                      9. True; worthy of belief. 2 Tim 2.

                      Less than one hundred years later that definition of faith was not part of the Websters dictionary copyright 1913.
                      Due to the change of the meaning of words that meaning was dropped. Though in modern times that definition has basically gone by the way side the fact that it once was the definition of the word less than 200 years ago proves that they are interchangeable ideas. Which verifies the Hebrew usage of the word ‘emuwnah”

                      Remember usage in scripture determines the meaning of a word and not modern concepts of what we think it may mean. Faith faithful, faithfulness and truth were all words translated from that one word.

                    • Patrick Strickland September 21, 2013 at 6:53 pm

                      More dictionary definitions for faithful:

                      World English Dictionary
                      faithful (ˈfeɪθfʊl)

                      — adj
                      1. HAVING FAITH; remaining true, constant, or loyal
                      2. maintaining sexual loyalty to one’s lover or spouse
                      3. consistently reliable: a faithful worker
                      4. reliable or truthful: a faithful source
                      5. accurate in detail: a faithful translation

                      — n
                      6. the faithful
                      a. the believers in and loyal adherents of a religious faith, esp Christianity
                      b. any group of loyal and steadfast followers

                      ‘faithfully

                      — adv

                      ‘faithfulness

                      — n

                      Collins English Dictionary – Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition
                      2009 © William Collins Sons & Co. Ltd. 1979, 1986 © HarperCollins
                      Publishers 1998, 2000, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2009
                      Cite This Source
                      Etymonline
                      Word Origin & History

                      faithful
                      c.1300, FULL OF FAITH, also firm in allegiance, from faith + -ful. Meaning true to the facts is from 1520s. The noun sense of true believers is from 1550s. Related: Faithfully; faithfulness.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 22, 2013 at 3:06 am

                      Patrick, a definition is chosen to fit the context. Your choice is foolishness. God is faithful does not mean He is full of faith as it would mean of a human being who is faithful. God is faithful means He is stable, the proper object of HUMAN trust and human faith. In other words God is trustworthy.

                      Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. {Hebrew 11: 1}

                      For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? {Romans 8: 24}

                      These two verses don’t apply to God. God “sees” and therefore has no need for hope or faith.

                    • Patrick Strickland September 30, 2013 at 11:28 am

                      “Patrick, a definition is chosen to fit the context.”

                      Actually in a perfect world you would be right. But unfortunately men with religious biases have translated the scriptures. The same word and it does not matter which language you choose whether it is Greek or Hebrew, or even Latin, when you translate it into English the same word applied to men is faith or even faithful, but when applied to God men have gone out of their way to make it something else whether faithfulness, or faithful, truth; anything but faith.

                      When you look up “faith” and “just” together only 4 verses show up Hab 2:4 in the Old testament and Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11, Heb 10:38 in the New testament. The last three are all direct quotes from Hab 2:4 which verify that emuwnah = faith = pistis and that tsaddı̂yq
                      = just = dikaios. Now when you look up tsaddı̂yq and emuwnah you find only two verses in the old testament Hab 2:4 and Deut 32:4 Now compare those two verses and watch what happens when the translators get a hold of it.

                      Hab_2:4 Behold, his soulH5315 which is lifted upH6075 [H8795] is not uprightH3474 [H8804] in him: but the JUST H6662 shall liveH2421 [H8799] by his FAITHH530.
                      Deu_32:4 He is the RockH6697, his workH6467 is perfectH8549: for all his waysH1870 are judgmentH4941: a GodH410 of TRUTHH530 and without iniquityH5766, JUSTH6662 and rightH3477 is he.

                      Can you tell me what in the context caused the translators of the KJV to not choose faith but to translate it as truth? Is it because men see that it applies to God and they assume that God does not have faith? Does not translating it as truth hide the fact that God is a God of faith?

                      The just shall live by faith emuwnah and it is crystal clear even for you that God is just and he is a God of emuwnah. If God does not have faith then he does not have emuwnah. But the problem for you is that he is a God of emuwnah and it is verified that ALL HIS WORKS ARE DONE IN EMUWNAH!!!

                      For the word of the LORD is right; and ALL his works are done in truth (emuwnah-faith). (Psa 33:4 KJV)

                      You see dear sir God calls those things that are not as though the are Romans 4:17… Those things not seen by man and he in many cases waits centuries for what he has declared to come to pass so that it may be seen. This is God’s faith in action, since faith is the evidence of things not seen.

                      Do you remember what the TWOT said about faith? BIBLICAL FAITH IS AN ASSURANCE, A CERTAINTY, IN CONTRAST WITH MODERN CONCEPTS OF FAITH AS SOMETHING POSSIBLE, HOPEFULLY TRUE, BUT NOT CERTAIN. When God speaks he speaks by faith and what he is working to accomplish will come to pass just like he determined it to happen, no matter how long it may take. Faith is a certainty and our hope relies totally upon him being faithful. When God spoke about the cross was he not waiting in hope till it was accomplished 700 years later? See Lanny it was not seen till it came to pass as he decreed. To God it was an act of faith where he was declaring what was not as though it was and it was a certainty to happen and around 700 years later it became something all could see. God waited 700 years for what he spoke to come to pass

                      Nevertheless my lovingkindnessH2617 will I not utterly takeH6331 [HGH8686] from him, nor suffer my FAITHFULNESSH530 to failH8266 [HGH8762]. My covenantH1285 will I not breakH2490 [HGH8762], nor alterH8138 [HGH8762] the thing that is gone outH4161 of my lipsH8193. OnceH259 have I swornH7650 [HGH8738] by my holinessH6944 that I will not lieH3576 [HGH8762] unto DavidH1732. His seedH2233 shall endure for everH5769, and his throneH3678 as the sunH8121 before me.
                      (Psa 89:33-36 KJV+TVM)

              • Lanny A. Eichert September 15, 2013 at 1:48 am

                Furthermore, Patrick, there is an argument in the literal perfect Holy Bible made on the difference between the singular and the plural in Galatians 3: 16. This argument provides two proofs. First the carefulness of God to transmit His Book perfectly throughout the ages. Second the trustworthiness of the entire Book as the object of the faith of His Elect people.

                This Book testifies that unrighteous people burn in eternal torment forever without remedy whether or not you believe the faith of God. {Romans 3: 3} The faith of God is the whole body of truth and in the context it is the oracles of God {verse 2} and thy (God’s) sayings {verse 4}, the written Word of God, here specifically the Old Testament Scriptures. You twist and push an idea contrary to the context which states it is the oracles of God and His sayings. How much more proof of your meddling do you need than the context itself? You are inventing and evil interpretation contrary to the context. Face it and repent.

                • Patrick Strickland September 19, 2013 at 3:31 pm

                  Hi dear sir;

                  You have said this about Gal 3:16:

                  “there is an argument in the literal perfect Holy Bible made on the difference between the singular and the plural in Galatians 3: 16. This argument provides two proofs. First the carefulness of God to transmit His Book perfectly throughout the ages. Second the trustworthiness of the entire Book as the object of the faith of His Elect people.”

                  Now let us take a look at Gal 3:16:

                  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
                  (Gal 3:16 KJV)

                  Where does that passage make a promise that God will carefully keep and transmit his book PERFECTLY throughout the ages? Where does that passage declare that the object of our faith is the bible? Where does it talk about trustworthiness of the entire Book? Where are the elect mentioned? None of those things are even mentioned in that passage. Yet you have the boldness to present your argument as if they are all there. You are reading into that passage much more then what is actually written in that scripture and you are presenting ideas that are not even written there. In fact your basic assumption does not fully match the facts: The Dead Sea Scrolls does not perfectly match the Masoretic texts which were written almost 1000 to 1200 years later, nor do the Masoretic texts or the DSS perfectly match the Septuagint. There are even many differences between the different Greek manuscripts we have for the new testament. The Textus Receptus does not perfectly match the Wescott Hort, or the Nestle-Aland If you actually studied you would find out this fact concerning the various manuscripts. We are not promised that God would keep all the manuscripts completely free from scribes fooling around with them. In fact scripture warns us about the lying pen of the scribes.

                  Jeremiah 8:8
                  (ASV) How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of Jehovah is with us? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes hath wrought falsely.
                  (BBE) How is it that you say, We are wise and the law of the Lord is with us? But see, the false pen of the scribes has made it false.

                  However we are promised that God has given us an anointing which will lead and guide us into all truth. I firmly believe that with all the differences out there in the various manuscripts that he actually did preserve what he actually meant: but there is absolutely no way for our natural carnal mind which does not listen to his anointing teach and lead us into all truth; to actually find His truth. We must each seek him to teach us his word or we will not come fully and completely to His truth.

                  Just look at all the different contradictory beliefs out there in just the different main line christian denominations which all have the same bible to preach from. The churches are filled with confusion…. Do we sprinkle or do we dunk when we baptize? Do we baptize in the name of the father son and holy ghost or in just Jesus name only? Is speaking in tongues of the devil or is it from the Holy Ghost? Are the gifts of God functioning today or did they cease with the last apostle? Does God have faith or not? Are we saved by just confessing, or do we need to be baptized in water before we are saved, or must we be baptized in the Holy Ghost before we are truly saved? Is the rapture pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, or is there no rapture? Are the Catholics the only ones saved and the rest going to hell? Or are the baptists the only ones who are saved and the rest going to hell? What about the Pentecostals are they the only ones saved and the rest are simply deceived by satan and are going to hell? Is there a hell like the denominations teach or is wicked man’s final place annihilation, or does god truly intend to save ALL men? Are we only a few predestined to salvation Calvinism or do we have a free will to choose salvation Armianism and the rest burn forever or does God fully intend to judge all man and then have mercy upon all and save all? Is there a trinity or is it oneness? There is no end to all the differences or questions that could be asked. So many conflicting doctrines and all denominations claim to have the Holy Bible to support their view.

                  We treat the many different ideas out there like an all you can eat buffet where we get to choose what is truth and what we don’t choose is a lie to us. We do not have the right to do that Only the holy ghost can lead and guide us into all truth and without God showing us what truth is we will always choose just what appeals to our ideology; and if most of our friends are baptists we will only choose what they believe but if our friends are Pentecostal we will choose only what they accept as truth. Peer pressure will affect what most of us choose to believe. And the funny thing is we will always reject what God is actually trying to bring us into simply because we fail to just seek what he actually meant by what he had written, simply because we want to be accepted by our fellow men. As long as we are picking and choosing just what we want to believe from the market place of ideas then we will be deceived and not come fully to His truth. Only when we begin to seek him diligently to teach us His truth will we begin to understand what truth really is. Sadly when we do this we will be rejected by the very denominations we belonged to.

                  As to the rest of your post…

                  It is simply amazing we can read the same book but come to two completely different conclusions. I see a consistent testimony throughout the entire scriptures that God is going to judge sin fully and completely, and then have mercy upon all and save all men.

                  I love how you equate the faith of God with the written Word of God But who’s interpretation of the holy writ should we believe? Is the faith of God the baptists set of beliefs concerning what they interpret the bible to say ie the baptist faith? Or is the faith of God the Catholics set of belief they interpret the Bible to say? Or is the faith of God the Methodist faith, or the Lutherans faith, or the Church of Christ’s faith, or the Church of God’s faith, or is it the United Pentecostal’s faith, etc, etc, add whatever denomination you can think of set of belief’s which they call their faith to that mix and ask yourself which set of beliefs truly make up the faith of God if the faith of god is actually the written scriptures?

                  God never promised to keep any denominations interpretation or any man’s interpretation of His spoken word which happens to be written in scripture… No a thousand times NO~!!!!! He ONLY promised to keep and to bring to pass what He spoke and sent His word to accomplish in this earth.

                  For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
                  (Isa 55:8-11 KJV)

                  Man’s vain contradictory denominational interpretations of the word of God will not come to pass only God’s determined will for every word he has ever spoken will come to pass. And if by chance what he has determined to bring to pass happens to match some denominations set of beliefs in a certain area this by no means is God validating their whole set of beliefs if their set of beliefs do not completely match what he actually sent all of his word to accomplish.

                  I do want to bring up one other problem with your post that I see. In Romans 3:3 you assume that the faith of God I.E. the bible is the object of our faith. Did you know that in the Greek language there are two different kinds of genitives, the subjective and the objective.

                  The objective genitive: God is the object of our faith.
                  The subjective genitive: The faith that God possess.

                  In order for you to be correct then Romans 3:3 must be an objective genitive.
                  Let us see what some commentaries on the Greek of that passage say.

                  Henry Alford Greek Testament:
                  “…shall their unfaithfulness (to the covenant: see above, and Wis_14:25; in the root of the matter, their unbelief, as in reff.: and the substantive ἀπιστία is bound to the verb ἠπίστησαν, but its rendering must be ruled by the contrast to ἡ πίστις τοῦ θεοῦ, which must be “the faithfulness of God”) cancel (nullify) the faithfulness of God? ‘Because they have broken faith on their part, shall God break faith also on His?’

                  Cambridge Greek Testament for Schools and Colleges
                  τὴν πίστιν τοῦ θεοῦ, the faithfulness of GOD—apparently the only place in N.T. where the gen. in this or cognate phrases is SUBJECTIVE; but the sense is determined by ἀλήθης infra; and the thought |[96] 1Co_1:9; Heb_10:23; 1Th_5:24, alibi S. H. qu. Lam_3:23; Ps. Sol. 8:35 (only in LXX[98]). For πίστις in this sense cf. Mat_23:23; Gal_5:22; 1Ti_5:12 (?); Tit_2:10. See Lft, Gal. p. 157; Hort, 1 Pet. p. 81.
                  [96] | parallel to
                  [98] LXX. the Septuagint Version of the Old Testament

                  Jamieson Faussett Brown
                  Shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? – `invalidate,’ or ‘nullify, the faithfulness of God?’

                  The People’s New Testament
                  What if some did not believe? In this verse the Jew raises a second objection. God has made a promise to Abraham to be a God to him and to his seed in all generations. “Shall God’s faithfulness be made of none effect, his promise be broken, because a great part of Israel does not believe upon the promised Seed of Abraham, who was to bless all nations?” God forbid. The Greek means, literally, “Not so.” It does not follow that God is unfaithful, because he rejects unbelieving Israel, for his covenant with Israel and his promise to Abraham were conditional.

                  Vincent Word Studies
                  Faith of God
                  Better, as Rev., faithfulness; the good faith of God; His fidelity to His promises. For this sense see on Mat_23:23. Compare Tit_2:10, and see on faithful, 1Jo_1:9; see on Rev_1:5; see on Rev_3:14. Compare 1Co_1:9; 1Co_10:13; 2Co_1:18.

                  In the old testament the word emuwnah can be translated as truth faith faithfulness and faithful. In the new testament the equivalent word, the noun pistis can be translated as faith, belief, assurance and it’s adjective pistos is translated as faithful, true, believe So I have absolutely no problem seeing faith God has in that scripture or if you like the faithfulness of God in that verse; the two words are virtually interchangeable in both languages. The faith of God is not objective as all the commentaries quoted say. One of the commentaries specifically the Cambridge Greek Testament clearly says that it is a subjective genitive in Roman 3:3. Therefore we are clearly dealing with the faith that God possess and not the object of our faith.

                  God’s faith is an expression of his faithfulness to keep and accomplish just what he sent his word to do, and no man’s, especially the Jew’s doubt or unbelief will hinder his will for his sent word from accomplishing just what he sent it to do.

                  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of My counsel [Cyrus, a type of Messiah] from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it. Hearken unto Me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness: I bring near My righteousness; it shall not be far off, and My salvation will not be too late: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel My glory. (Isa 46:10-13 EWB-CB)
                  And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou? (Dan 4:35 EWB-CB)

                  What God sent His word to do is just what it will accomplish. And that sent word will not return to him without executing, completing and achieving just what he sent it to do. And any promise that directly declares that in God’s Holy writ takes precedence over any other promise in scripture but when you add God’s sworn oath to his word not returning to him it becomes a promise that must absolutely come to pass. Every other promise in scripture must operate in relation to bringing His sworn word to fruition. This sworn word will not return to God without accomplishing just what he sent it to do. With both elements in place it is now a word that is completely impossible for it not to come to pass. There is only one scriptural promise that meets both of those requirement, and it is not a promise to torture most men for eternity, but involves the salvation of ALL men. All sin will be judged and that which is in each and every one of us that makes us wicked will be destroyed by the very appearing of his glory in us: yet the very life of Christ, the seed God has placed in every man that has come into this world shall be justified made whole saved.

                  Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to Him shall one come; and all that are incensed against Him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
                  (Isa 45:22-25 EWB-CB)

                  It is impossible for God’s sworn word not to come to pass!! If anyone is tormented forever for their finite sins then it makes the sworn word impossible to be accomplished, which according to scripture absolutely cannot happen It would seem that you are again stuck with a contradiction because the faith of your denomination does not match the written word of God. The faith that God has will not allow his nature to be besmirched by not bringing what He has sworn to do to pass.

                  Lanny Your ideas or even my ideas concerning scripture are NOT guaranteed to be fulfilled ONLY what God ACTUALLY SENT HIS WORD TO DO IS!!! So it behooves all who call on the name of the Lord to do whatever it takes to make his ideas ours: and not to push our ideas about the scripture and force him to keep them. He won’t keep our ideas if they do not match what he actually sent his word to accomplish.

                  • Lanny A. Eichert September 20, 2013 at 9:17 pm

                    Patrick, the faith of God is the whole body of truth and in the context it is the oracles of God {verse 2} and thy (God’s) sayings {verse 4}, the written Word of God, here specifically the Old Testament Scriptures. Stay in context instead of being so wordy. It is a simple text.

                    PS I suspected you wouldn’t comprehend Galatians 3: 16. You try to have the faith of God without a perfect Holy Bible. It is more important to you to discredit the Bible than to believe God keeps His word.

                    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14} FEW FEW FEW
                    Few EVER find it. Jesus said so without even adding the word ever.

                    • admin September 21, 2013 at 9:53 pm

                      Of course He didn’t add “ever,” because in doing so, he would change the meaning of what He said.

                    • Lanny A. Eichert September 22, 2013 at 2:38 am

                      Sorry, Alice, it doesn’t change anything but emphasis.

                    • Patrick Strickland September 22, 2013 at 12:56 pm

                      Why don’t you answer the questions from my previous post concerning Gal 3:16.

                      Where does that passage make a promise that God will carefully keep and transmit his book PERFECTLY throughout the ages? Where does that passage declare that the object of our faith is the bible? Where does it talk about trustworthiness of the entire Book? Where are the elect mentioned?

                      I love how you equate the faith of God with the written Word of God But who’s interpretation of the holy writ should we believe? Is the faith of God the baptists set of beliefs concerning what they interpret the bible to say ie the baptist faith? Or is the faith of God the Catholics set of belief they interpret the Bible to say? Or is the faith of God the Methodist faith, or the Lutherans faith, or the Church of Christ’s faith, or the Church of God’s faith, or is it the United Pentecostal’s faith, etc, etc, add whatever denomination you can think of set of belief’s which they call their faith to that mix and ask yourself which set of beliefs truly make up the faith of God if the faith of god is actually the written scriptures?

                      Why is the genitive not an objective genitive but is actually a subjective genitive?

                      What is a subjective genitive?

                      The objective genitive: God is the object of our faith.
                      The subjective genitive: The faith that God possess.

                      Why do most scholars of Greek agree it is a subjective genitive the faith of God – faithfulness of God.

                      It never fails Lanny that when you or anyone for that fact add to what you are reading you change just what it actually says. I agree with Alice that “ever” is not in that passage because it changes just what he said. And adding all the ideas you do to Gal 3:16 only changes what the scripture is actually saying.

                      Finally Lanny Did you know that the oracles of God are the utterances of God? Scripture does contain what God has spoken but men have twisted the meaning of his words to fit what they want them to mean. Every word that God has spoken is not contained in scripture. For example Jesus only spoke what he heard his father who was in him say to him. Yet scripture clearly declares that he had many other things to declare to us but it would take the reality of the holy Ghost in us to teach each of us the truth and to speak to each of us what he wanted to teach us.

                      I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
                      (Joh 16:12-15 KJV)

                      But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
                      (1Jn 2:27 KJV)

                      We have to rely upon the holy ghost, the spirit of Christ, in us to teach us truth not our opinion of what we think the bible says.

                • Lanny A. Eichert September 20, 2013 at 4:27 pm

                  Patrick, read the verses in which the promises were made. They all contain seed in the singular, not the plural. Galatians 3: 16 stresses “as of many; but as of one” seven words in English and seven words in Greek, seven words you cannot ignore.

                  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. {Galatians 3: 16}

                  See all singulars (seed) in Genesis 12: 7; 13: 15, 16; 15: 5; 17: 7, 8; 21: 12; 22: 17, 18; 26: 3, 4; 28: 13, 14

                  If God can preserve the singular in many different verses for nearly six thousand years, what makes any of you think that the Holy Bible is corrupted?

                  Let me ask you a question. If you wrote and published a greatly controversal book, would you not be watching that additional printings of your book were not edited, changed, parts left out, statements added by the publisher’s critics, and otherwise corrupted your ideas? As long as you lived with a sound mind you certainly would until you died. What makes you think God Who doesn’t die would not do the same for centuries? Look, God wrote the Bible in the first place {2 Timothy 3: 16, 17} and Jesus said “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” {Matthew 4: 4} Jesus said “every” word, so HOW can God let any word of His Bible be corrupted? In the Timothy passage HOW can Scriptures be used for CORRECTION if they are corrupted, or HOW can a man of God be PERFECT by the Scriptures?

                  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {2 Timothy 3: 16, 17}

                  I’m not saying one translation or another is perfect, but taken all together and properly weighted we have a perfect understanding of every word of the Holy Bible and it has always been through the ages, but more so now than ever before. Our forefathers often were skilled in both Biblical languages and could be critical of translations. We have higher critics who have compiled much more archaeological evidence than they to prove each word even though many are unbelievers. Today the Bible stands unrefuted as to its TEXT as originally written. Stop using old outdated arguments. The Bible was perfect as written and today if someone wants to find a perfect Bible he can. It has been that way for centuries. You want to find a corrupted Bible then ignore the fact that God is great enough to protect His Book from errors in transmission. I pity such a person, because he has an impotent god of his own manufacture. He really has no god at all.

                  Thirteen verses in Genesis and Galatians 3: 16 prove the Holy Bible is and has always been a perfect volume preserved by God and the proper object of His saints’ faith.

                  • Patrick Strickland September 22, 2013 at 2:25 pm

                    Why do you say I ignored those seven words. The seed being either singular or plural is not an argument I have ever made. In fact I am not aware of any manuscript or part of a manuscript in the Greek that changes the singular seed to a plural. So for you to sit there and complain that I am saying that section is corrupt is a leap of imagination on your part.

                    The promises were all made to the seed I fully agree. The seed is Christ and Christ is in every man who ever came into this world. He is the light, the life that lighteth every man that came into this world. john 1:9. Not every man has allowed the seed to germinate in them and reproduce the life of god in them, the wheat. So the seed in them is not doing them any good because they don’t even know and recognize it is there. Christ is in every man but every man does not know it. As the parable of the wheat and tares declares the wheat the seed God planted was planted first and the tare the enemy planted the flesh man came second.

                    None of the promises are to the flesh man but all the promises are to Christ.

                    The parts of the bible that are in question are all the verses where entire words and verses are either changed or missing or even added in all the various manuscripts that we have and it is those verses that are in question not all verses of the bible. The MS which dates around 1000 AD and the DSS 300-200 BC do not agree in many places. So which one are we to choose from in the places where they disagree? Do we choose the renderings that agree with the LXX 200 BC or do we just choose the one that tradition says is a perfect copy written over a 1000 years later? In spiritual matters can we trust our natural minds to resolve this issue or are we supposed to ask God to teach us the truth?

                    In textural criticism even many of the scholars do not agree fully on many of the words or even which manuscript to use when translating yet you gloss over the issue like it is not even there. See it is for this very reason we each need to learn to listen to the Holy Ghost because we do not really know which one is the correct manuscript. For many verses the problem remains and those scholars involved will continue to argue for years to come. And when you add denominational differences into the mix the problems multiply to even greater degrees of confusion because the scholars will try their best to use only the manuscripts that agree with their bias that they learned from denominations theology.

                    Let the confusion continue between men… Babylon will not cease till we all seek to only hear Christ and his opinion only.

  • Stephen Helbig September 11, 2013 at 12:25 am

    AMEN and AMEN ~ I LIVE ~ By the FAITH of THE SON OF GOD

    p.s. ~ God’s Blessings Patrick, your above post is a definition and work of excellence

    • Patrick Strickland September 16, 2013 at 7:54 pm

      Thank you dear brother for your kind words they are much appreciated. May we all learn to live by Christ’s faith.

      Grace and peace Patrick

  • Lanny A. Eichert September 28, 2013 at 12:09 am

    Patrick, in answer to your last two posts, 9/22 at 12:56 pm & 2:25 pm, Holy Writ, the Holy Bible is authorative, the only authority.

    These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. {Acts 17: 11}

    Not what you think or supposed some spirit taught you.

    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. {1 John 4: 1}

    The Standard is the WRITTEN Word of God.

    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. {2 Timothy 3: 16 & 17}

    πᾶσα γραφὴ is WRITTEN Scripture, dear Patrick, which is for CORRECTION, and if for correction itself must be correct.

    {Jesus} said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. {Matthew 4: 4}

    Every word of WRITTEN text He said is perfect or else He could not make such a BOLD statement.

    Why do you degrade His word? How can you have His word abiding in you? You dispute

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. {Matthew 7: 13 & 14}

    You say that destruction is not permanent when Jesus gave neither hope nor remedy for them.

  • Patrick Strickland October 2, 2013 at 5:06 pm

    I enjoyed reading your last post Lanny, Thank you for taking the time to post it. I appreciate it. Now let us deal with what you have said. Sorry but this is going to be a very long

    “Holy Writ, the Holy Bible is authorative, the only authority.”
    Interesting statement but I would agree that it is authoritative but I will not agree that it is the only authority. Scripture is very clear that God gave us the holy spirit, the annointing, the spirit of truth to abide in us along with Jesus spirit and the Father’s to lead and guide us into all truth. John 14:10-26, 16:7-15, I John 2:20-27.

    One of the more interesting definitions of truth is found in Thayer’s Dictionary under the Greek word G228 Alethinos
    – Phonetic: al-ay-thee-nos’
    – Definition:
    1. that which has not only the name and resemblance, but the real nature corresponding to the name, in every respect corresponding to the idea signified by the name, real, true genuine

    The truth is according to I John 4:17 …As he is so are we in this world. We not only have the name and resemblance but we have the real nature corresponding to the name available to us because Jesus and the Father both live and abide in us. This is a living reality that scripture describes in John 14 18-23 where Jesus promises to come into us and make his abode in us. This is the goal of biblical Christianity to conform us into the image of his son, who only spoke what he heard his father say and did only what he saw his father doing. THAT MY DEAR FRIEND IS NOT WHAT MOST DENOMINATIONS ARE STRIVING FOR.

    Scripture by itself as described by Paul as the letter that kills 2 cor 3:2-4:6. It takes both the letter upon the page and the spirit quickening it to us making it a living word in us in order for us to come fully to the truth of being conformed fully into Christ’s image by the Glory of God that is in us. Scripture without the spirit of God is only a word of condemnation and death which has a glory, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT MAKING IT ALIVE IT NOW BECOMES A MINISTRY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT HAS A GREATER GLORY THAT WHEN COMPARED TO THE GLORY OF JUST WHAT IS WRITTEN IS LIKE COMPARING NO GLORY TO INFINITE GLORY 2 COR 3:10.

    We need both both the scriptures and the spirit in order to come to life if we only have just what is written without the spirit then all we have is a ministry of death.

    “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. {Acts 17: 11}
    Not what you think or supposed some spirit taught you.
    Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. {1 John 4: 1}”

    Wow we HAVE DEALT WITH THIS TOPIC BEFORE you know fully well that I am not talking about listening to my self or to another spirit But ONLY TO THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN YOU. Would you like to quote the full scripture from I john 4 In order to do that we must start in the previous chapter so you can understand what he is talking about.
    My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, AND LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment. And he that KEEPETH HIS COMMANDMENTS DWELLETH IN HIM, AND HE IN HIM. And HEREBY WE KNOW THAT HE ABIDETH IN US, BY THE SPIRIT WHICH HE HATH GIVEN US. Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. HEREBY KNOW YE THE SPIRIT OF GOD: EVERY SPIRIT THAT CONFESSETH THAT JESUS CHRIST IS COME IN THE FLESH (IN THEIR FLESH WHERE HE ABIDES IN US) IS OF GOD: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: BECAUSE GREATER IS HE THAT IS IN YOU, THEN HE THAT IS IN THE WORLD. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    (1Jn 3:18-4:6 KJV)

    Now keeping his commandments TO love God and all men around you and knowing Christ is come in your flesh are all important aspects in knowing the difference between the spirit of truth and the spirit of error, just like Jesus promised in John 14:18-23

    Now let us deal with The passage you quoted from acts 17 the Thessalonians and Bereans were Greek and most likely studied the scriptures avaliable to them in their own language the Septuagint which by the way does not fully match the MS in many passages but does match more closely to the DSS And if the did study the hebrew languages then the manuscripts they studied from were more closely related to the DSS then the MSwe know today. History shows that there was a deliberate change to the manuscripts by the Jews in order to discredit the Christians.

    From http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masorete.htm
    “The Masoretic Text, other than the Dead Sea Scrolls, is the only existing representation of the Old Testament in Hebrew. The oldest fragments date from the 9th century AD, but the oldest complete texts come from the 10th and 11th centuries AD. However, the Hebrew text that it contains is clearly not the original Hebrew, nor even the Hebrew that was in use in the 1st century AD. The Hebrew of the 1st century AD was closely akin to the Greek Septuagint that we have today; this is clear because, although the Hebrew was little used, when it was used in ancient writing it was clearly in agreement with the Greek Septuagint rather than the Masoretic Text. For example, although Philo and Josephus both used the Greek Septuagint, it is believed by most scholars that they frequently had access to a Hebrew Bible and even consulted it on a few occasions. It is through evidence like this that we see that the then current Hebrew disagreed with the Hebrew Masoretic Text of today. In the 1st century, the Christians and all other Greek speaking Israelites, including 1,000,000 of them who lived in Alexandria, Egypt, used the Greek Septuagint. Jesus and His Apostles wrote in Greek and quoted the Greek Septuagint. Of this there can be no doubt. This is a fact that can be confirmed in any encyclopedia or scholarly book on the subject. As we have already pointed out, we know this because the quotations of the Greek New Testament are exactly aligned with the Greek Septuagint, but in sharp opposition to the Hebrew Masoretic Text. There is, however, no reason to believe that they were in disagreement with the Hebrew that was current in the 1st century AD.”

    “What we do know is that toward the end of the 1st century AD and into the 2nd century, the Talmudic, Edomite Jews were actively attacking the Greek Septuagint because it was used by the Christians. They felt that they could discredit the Christians merely for the reason that they used Greek, and at the same time, they began twisting the Hebrew Scriptures to try and disprove that Jesus was the true Messiah. This controversy roared on until at least the 4th and 5th centuries AD. We have already noted how the early Catholics attacked the Vulgate translation of Jerome because it was the first to be based upon Hebrew, and they continued for a very long time to use the Old Latin because it was based upon the Greek Septuagint. One of the most famous examples of how the Jews attacked the Greek Septuagint regarded the word virgin. The particular verse in question is Isaiah 7:14, which reads in the Greek Septuagint:”
    “Therefore, the Master Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will conceive in the womb, and will bring forth a Son, and you will call His Name Emmanuel.”
    “In the Greek, the word for virgin is parthenos, and it literally means a virgin. In the Masoretic Text, however, the word is almah which means a young girl. The usual Hebrew word for virgin, and the word in every case translated virgin in the Revised Version, is bethuwlah.This verse is quoted from Isaiah in the Christian Scriptures in Matthew 1:23. The Jews attacked the Septuagint from the beginning because they claimed that it had been corrupted by the Christians and that the Christians changed the word in the Septuagint to read virgin instead of young woman so that it would support the reading in Matthew. Of course, the Edomite Jews did not believe that Jesus was the true Messiah; this was why they were attacking the Septuagint. The Jews are the ones who changed the Hebrew, replacing the word virgin with young woman. The early motive of the Edomite Jews was to destroy Christianity, not just the Septuagint.” -end quote-
    You are more then welcome to research this fact on the internet there are many sites that will share this historical fact with you.

    Lanny has said: “The Standard is the WRITTEN Word of God.”

    True it is but without the spirit of God quickening it then all you have is a word of death and condemnation that will kill you and all who listen to you.

    Lanny has said “Every word of WRITTEN text He said is perfect or else He could not make such a BOLD statement.”
    I do recall a previous conversation where I clearly said that the law was perfect. Psa 19:7 But the law which is perfect CANNOT PERFECT YOU, but the bringing in of a better hope did that better hope is Christ in you the hope of glory. Heb 7:19; Col 1:27. Scripture without the spirit cannot perfect you. This is clear from 2 Cor 3

    Lanny continues to say: “Why do you degrade His word? How can you have His word abiding in you? You dispute”
    Teaching what is commonly taught in seminary on textural criticism, and the history of how we got our bible is not degrading His word. What I have brought up are facts that are not hidden but can easily be checked out. Scriptures are very important but you must recognize the difference between just learning scriptures written upon a page and having the spirit of God quicken them to you. Memorizing the letter of the scripture is not having his living word abiding in you. All scripture was given to perfect you but without the spirit quickening it to you there is no way it can perfect you. Having the letter that kills memorized in your brain you will never make you become perfect which is what God’s will for you is. Remember, the law which is perfect and was written CANNOT perfect you. Jesus is The Word of God, not scriptures; having him and the Father come into you to abide in the Holy of Holies of the temple of the God you are is having the Word of God abide in you. God wants us to have our love perfected and the only way for that to occur is for us to be fully quickened to the word in us that causes us to become as he is in this world.
    Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    (1Jn 4:17-18 KJV)

    God wants us all to come to the place where we learn to trust his voice in us so we can say just like Jesus did that the words we speak are not our own but the father’s and the works we do are not our own but we do only what we see the Father doing. This is our example and this it the living reality and truth he is trying to bring all of us into.

    My sheep know my voice and another they will not follow

    And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
    (Joh 10:4-5 KJV)

  • Lanny A. Eichert October 3, 2013 at 2:23 am

    Poor dear Patrick, you are still relying on a voice {God wants us all to come to the place where we learn to trust his voice in us} which can only be identified by the Standard of the perfect literal Holy Bible. Since you dispute Eternal Torment as taught by the Standard, the voice you have come to trust is not of God. It is that same voice that told Eve she would not die. That’s very simple and I need say no more, seeing you know the voice that spoke to Eve.

  • Patrick Strickland October 5, 2013 at 5:22 pm

    Lanny it amazes me that you even after being corrected in the last post, “you know fully well that I am not talking about listening to my self or to another spirit But ONLY TO THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN YOU”; you continue to lie to yourself and continue to declare that I am listening to a spirit and not the spirit of God, even going so far to say I am listening to satan himself say ‘did God actually say.” And then you insist FALSELY that the record of scripture does not contain a record of God saying He will have all men saved. But as you fully know there are many scriptures that declare just that fact in scripture.

    IT IS GOD’S WILL, IT IS GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE AND A FAITHFUL SAYING WORTHY OF ALL ACCEPTANCE AND IS SOMETHING WE ARE COMMANDED TO TEACH TO ALL AND PRAY FOR ALL MEN.

    I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is GOOD AND ACCEPTABLE IN THE SIGHT OF GOD OUR SAVIOUR;WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself A RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time.
    (1Ti 2:1-6 KJV)

    This is a FAITHFUL SAYING AND WORTHY OF ALL ACCEPTATION. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE. THESE THINGS COMMAND AND TEACH.
    (1Ti 4:9-11 KJV)

    I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. LOOK UNTO ME,(In the Hebrew this is A COMMAND, and not a request ) AND BE YE SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH: for I am God, and there is none else. I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF,THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN, THAT UNTO ME EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR. SHURLY, ONE SHALL SAY, IN THE LORD HAVE I RIGHTEOUSNESS AND STRENGTH: EVEN TO HIM SHALL MEN COME: and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
    (Isa 45:19-25 KJV)

    ALL ARE GOING TO BE GATHERED INTO HIM
    Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times HE MIGHT GATHER TOGETHER IN ONE ALL THINGS IN (GREEK EIS MEANS INTO) CHRIST,(CHRIST IS THE SEED) both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
    (Eph 1:9-11 KJV)

    ALL ARE TO BE RECONCILED INTO HIM
    For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to RECONCILE ALL THINGS INTO HIMSELF; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
    (Col 1:19-21 )

    For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature (ktisis original formation) waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature (ktisis original formation ) was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature (ktisis original formation) itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God ( greek literally reads INTO the liberty of the glory of the sons of God). For we know that the whole creation (ktisis original formation creature, did you notice how the translators changed the word they had previously translated in context as creature now as creation thereby hiding the fact that the creature he was speaking about is the creature travailing to be delivered into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God ) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
    (Rom 8:15-23 KJV)

    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    (Rom 8:26-31 KJV)

    AND there are MANY MORE VERSES WHICH YOU KNOW ARE THERE that I did not include.

    Jesus teaches us to pray the will of the Father, Romans 8 tells us the spirit will pray the father’s will through us; Paul in I timothy after telling us to pray for all men tells us what the father’s will is we need to pray for’ god will have all men saved and and come to the knowledge of the truth” and John guarantees that if we pray anything according to his will he hears us and we have what we pray for yet Lanny says: there is not any record that God wants all men saved in the written perfect scripture.

    Basically Lanny you are saying “did god say he will have all men saved no he didn’t mean that he really wants to torture most men for all eternity including all those he predestined to burn in hell.” Yet when asked where in the record that he predestined any to burn in hell, he cannot produce one single verse in context to verify that fact in all of the record. When showed the commandment of God for all men to look and be saved. Lanny say did god say that no he actually meant that they are invited to look and that only applies to them while they are alive and after they are dead then God cannot and will not save them. Yet when asked to show that interpetation in the record of scripture where it says that death disanulls the promise of God and makes the word that has gone forth in righteousness and will not return unto him without accomplishing what He sent it to do void he cannot show one verse that says exactly what he declares. When shown that we are to trust in a living God who is the saviour of all men especially those that believe; Lanny says did God say that no he actually meant that he is only going to save the elect and torture the rest. When shown that all creation is groaning and travailing for the manifestation of the sons of God so they can be brought into the very same glory that the sons of God have. Lanny says Did god mean that no he meant only the earth that was cursed is going to be brought into that glory. But he forgets that man is part of creation and was created on the sixth day scripture clearly says the whole of creation is groaning and travailing for this.

    Lanny religion and the denomination you attend has taught you to become the voice of satan saying did God say when it is clear in scripture what his will for all men is.

    If what I am teaching is not in the record then it seems hilarious to me that what I am saying is word for word in the record yet what you claim in most cases is not even found in the record without adding words not there or reading into the context many things that are not even on that point you present as being there. It is amazing that you have become the voice of condemnation like scripture declares you will become if you only read the letter of condemnation without the spirit making it alive to you.

    So in all honesty I am declaring what is in the record and you are only sharing your opinion about what someone taught you the record says. If what I am saying is not in the record then why can I find it word for word in the record? And if what you are saying about the record is true then why can I not find what you are saying in many instances word for word? Many of the items you believe to be true are not even stated in the record of scripture yet you believe they are clearly there, but you cannot provide proof from scripture of the existence of many core beliefs the idea you hold to. I love you Lanny but something is completely wrong with the picture you have painted.

    Now if you want Lanny you can go back and show me all the scriptures that clearly declare all the items I have asked you to provide previously. But so far you have been unable to and I seriously think you won’t be able to because if you could you would already have done it. There is not one scripture when understood in its context that declares word for word he will not have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. There is not one scripture that clearly declares word for word that he is not the saviour of all men but only those that believe.

    Seems to me dear sir that you know the voice of satan the accuser of the brethren better then I do since you clearly act like God did not say he will have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and pretend that he did not say it at all.

    See Lanny what you have is an image man have taught you about God and he clearly is a God who either cannot save all or does not want to. Any god who cannot save the record declares is an idol of our own creation. Isa 45:20 Now scripture clearly declares that all who serve idols become just like the idol they serve.

    But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men’s hands. They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not: They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not: They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat. THEY THAT MAKE THEM ARE LIKE UNTO THEM; SO IS EVERY ONE THAT TRUSTETH IN THEM.
    (Psa 115:3-8 KJV)

    You did not create this image of God that is comely taught today It was created 1700 years right at the beginning of the dark ages, by the religious leaders of that day who persecuted and persuaded through fear of loss business family, places of worship torture, all dissenting voices even killing all those who did not line up to what they decreed was in the bible. They burned any written opinion that would contradict their view and called all that disagreed heretics to the christian faith, They mistranslated words to hide the truth they choose only manuscripts that matched their view, they added to the scriptures and they took away from them. They accepted pagan myths about the after life and taught them as if they were the truth, and excommunicated all who questioned or held a different opinion with what they taught, and through fear were foisting on all men a lie as if it was the truth of scripture. This idea about who they thought god was and what they did to make everyone believe caused the havoc of the dark ages and religious turmoil still present in all the denominations of Christianity today. You however are one who clearly trusts the image of god Man have made of a god who will torture most forever. Is it any wonder you do not hear the voice of God in you because you don’t believe the record of scripture but you believe only what men tell you it means.

    My sheep know my voice and a stranger they will not follow. So it follows that the norm for all Christians is to hear his voice, yet ask most who call themselves christians if they have ever heard the voice of God and they will say no they have not, this should not be the norm of any Christian’s walk. Yet many have never heard his precious voice.

    Now Lanny Remember one last thing that if what you are saying is true about torture forever then it behoves you as a christian to stop lying about the record of scripture and about what voice you think I am listening to since I am clearly pointing all believers towards listening to only the voice of God in them which scripture clearly testify to… See Lanny scripture clearly declares that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire which burns with brimstone and if you continue to lie then how are you going to miss going there.

    • Lanny A. Eichert October 7, 2013 at 3:35 pm

      Patrick, 1 Timothy 4: 10 “especially” proves you wrong.

      For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

      God is POTENTIALLY the Saviour of ALL ἄνθρωπος anthrōpos MEN and that’s exactly why, “specially of those that believe” μάλιστα πιστῶν, these last two words are in the text. Faith is require and you know from Scripture all have not faith by their own choice, therefore they, the majority, are lost to burn forever. We labor and suffer to preach to all humans in order to find “those who are of faith.” You make me suffer your reproaches because you are not “of faith.”

      For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation. {2 Corinthians 6: 2} There is no other “now” than this mortal life for salvation. Jesus died for our mortal sins during His mortal life as our Substitute. Only man, not angels, can receive this Substitute, but only in this “now” this mortal life. He suffered during our “now” which requires we receive Him in our “now”, can’t you see that after death is too late? He is our “now” Substitute before we die. When He cried, “it is finished” was from the cross in our “now” mortal existence on the earth. He suffered the wrath of God on the cross as He was dying when He cried, “Why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Everyone who doesn’t receive Him “now” before they die will for all eternity be crying, “Why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Well, since they didn’t want Him in life, why should God force Himself upon them in death? You know how unwelcome it is when some one forces their presence upon you, so they would be if God forces Himself upon them. So why would they cry such? Because they would know God hadn’t fully forsaken them in life, but now really has in a newer way which is permanent without remedy.

      • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2013 at 4:12 pm

        I have several posts for the last one you made here is the first one dear sir:

        1. Scripture does not say God is POTENTIALLY the Savior of all; It clearly says the exact opposite God IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL. Would you also read that God is Potentially Love, when scripture says God is LOVE: or God is POTENTIALLY righteous, when scriptures clearly say God is righteous: or God is POTENTIALLY light and in him is no darkness, when scriptures clearly declare something different: or would you read God is POTENTIALLY faithful, when scripture read God is faithful? When you come to God do you believe he POTENTIALLY IS and he is a potential rewarder of them that come to him, or do you actually believe he is and that he is a rewarder of them that come to him? By adding a word to fit what you imagine is there you change the entire meaning of the sentence, you take it from a certainty to just something hopefully true but not certain to happen.

        Did you not know that since God is love and love is described as longsuffering in I cor 13:4 that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation?

        2Pe_3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

        In the Old Testament God said:
        For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I SENT it.
        (Isa 55:10-11 KJV)

        Jesus is the LIVING WORD OF GOD who was SENT BY THE FATHER into this world to accomplish a specific purpose, and he shall not return to God without actually accomplishing what he was SENT to do.
        And we have seen and do testify that the Father SENT the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
        (1Jn 4:14 KJV)

        Jesus is the Saviour of the world and not potentially the saviour of the world!!!

        You see if someone rushed into a burning building and only saved less then ten percent of the people living there, then there is no way they would ever allow anyone to call them the saviour of the whole building if they actually have a conscience and did not actually save the whole building it would eat at them and cause much heart ache. I know I have run into a burning apartment building in Greely Co in the early 90’s and have saved all that were in a burning building and my conscience would never allow me to be called a saviour of the building if I did not save all that were there. If I did it would only be a lie. If Jesus allows himself to be called the saviour of the world and he actually does not save all men in the world then he is actually promoting a lie as if it was the truth, and worse yet he failed to accomplish what he was sent to do, and he returned to God without accomplishing what he was sent to do. Jesus is the truth. How can he be truth if he actually promotes a lie for most of the world by calling himself the saviour of the world if he actually does not save the whole world?

        Grace and peace Patrick

      • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2013 at 4:16 pm

        2. Scriptures declare that “in of the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established” 2 cor 13:1. I noticed that when you quoted 2 cor 6:2 that there is absolutely no written clause that makes ‘now’ read only a man’s life. If ‘now’ is only time to accept salvation and only a man’s lifetime would you think that there would be clear scripture to declare that? I would!! In fact there would be at the very least two or three that would have to bear witness to that fact in order for it to actually be established as a word of God. There has to be at least two clear scriptures that declares now during your lifetime is the only time available to any man to accept salvation. Funny thing is though Scripture is absolutely silent where that idea is concerned.

        However when you check out the scripture in question closely you will find that it is a quote from the old testament, Isaiah specifically, that deals with the accepted time which happens to involve the work and ministry of the Messiah and what that ministry would involve. And when you follow all the related scriptures then something entirely different then what you espouse and claim is in scripture is seen.

        We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
        (2Co 6:1-2 KJV)

        Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people,…

        Obviously God is saying he heard the messiah’s prayers and is promising Christ help in an acceptable time in the day of salvation and promising to give, make, him a covenant for the people. And then God commissioned the messiah to do the following verses as his ministry. The messiah ministry and what he shall do is the acceptable time and the day of salvation.

        … to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest SAY TO THE PRISONERS, GO FORTH; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves….

        Notice specifically that the messiah is going to say to the prisoners, Go forth this is very important and we will cover this topic more in depth later.

        They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them. And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted. Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim. Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.
        (Isa 49:7-13 KJV)

        The Messiah’s ministry and what he shall do IS the acceptable time and the day of salvation. There are other verses in Isaiah that also declare what the ministry of the messiah would entail.

        Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; TO OPEN THE BLIND EYES, TO BRING OUT THE PRISONERS FROM THE PRISON, AND THEM THAT SIT IN DARKNESS OUT OF THE PRISON HOUSE. I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
        (Isa 42:5-9 KJV)

        The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES, AND THE OPENING OF THE PRISON TO THEM THAT ARE BOUND; TO PROCLAIM THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.
        (Isa 61:1-3 KJV)

        That last verse Jesus quoted a part of it in the new testament and when Jesus quoted that verse I want you to notice carefully what he said in conjunction with it.

        The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and
        sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, THIS DAY IS THIS SCRIPTURE FULFILLED IN YOUR EARS.
        (Luk 4:18-21 KJV)

        When the new testament declares now is the acceptable time now is the day of salvation it is actually declaring that now the ministry that God promised to Jesus to do is inaugurated and is now fully functioning from that time on. The acceptable time, WHICH is also called the day of salvation, is not an act of our will during our lifetime but is an work of his ministry ordained by God for Christ to accomplish throughout his endless life. Where Paul said “’Now’ is the acceptaple day, ‘Now’ is the day of salvation ” Jesus said “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears”. Now is not defined as a fanciful idea of our accepting him only during our lifetime. But now is clearly defined as dealing with letting us know that now the ministry of christ is in operation and he will continue to do what his father sent him to do, until he brings all men out of prison and darkness… into His marvelous light.

        Now the interesting thing is the only time that we are told that Jesus preached to any prisoners… We are told that Jesus went and preached to the spirits of men who were disobedient who died in the flood, who were in the prison called hell.

        By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
        (1Pe 3:19-20 KJV)

        What do you think he preached to them sorry you have to stay in hell. No that is clearly not the ministry his father gave to him. Jesus went to preach deliverance to those held captive as prisoners and to open the door for their release. Jesus was given a ministry that opens the prisons doors and brings mankind out of darkness into his marvelous light. He led captivity captive and gave gifts to men even to them who are rebellious so that he might dwell among them.

        Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them. Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
        (Psa 68:18-19 KJV)

        GOD WANTS TO OPEN THE PRISON AND LET ALL THE PRISONERS FREE, INCLUDING ALL THOSE WHO ARE IN THE PRISON CALLED HELL. Now the one who wants the prisoners to remain in prison is Lucifer and scripture clearly says that.

        How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; THAT OPENED NOT THE HOUSE OF HIS PRISONERS?
        (Isa 14:12-17 KJV)

        You do remember Lanny that Jesus specifically called the religious leaders of his day sons of satan? Why do you think that was? Because they were acting like their father and had the very same attitudes he has. Unfortunately the church on the whole because of the traditions of men taught to them are also acting just like satan in their attitude and do not want the prisoners released. So do you think that the church is actually following God’s ministry given to the messiah to open the prison doors and set the captives free that now is active or are they actually following satan’s desire to Not open the house of his prisoners?

        Out of the mouth of two or three witnesses let every word be established. Now is established by scripture to be something entirely different then what you are trying to force it to say.

        It never ceases to amaze me just what you will find in scripture when you allow scripture to interpret scripture; instead of adding words and ideas not included in passages and then redefining words to match what you think it says.

        Grace and peace Patrick

      • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2013 at 4:22 pm

        3. Faith dear sir is not a choice we make as you assume, we cannot choose to have faith nor can we choose to not have faith. Faith is a fruit of the spirit that only grows when we abide in the vine John 15 Gal 5:22. Faith is a spirit 2 Cor 4:13. And there is even a gift of faith described in scripture 1 Cor 12:L1-11. Faith comes by hearing and hearing through a spoken word proceeding forth from God now, as scripture clearly declares Rom10:17. Faith is a gift from God given to all men Acts 17:30-31; I find it interesting that never does scripture declare that faith is a choice you make to have or not to have. However when you do have faith given to you then you are encouraged to use it and to mix it with what you hear him say; and warned of the consequences of not mixing it with what you hear him say Heb 3,4.

        If you were to declare that men do not have faith because they are not abiding as a branch on the vine then you would be correct. If you were to declare that men do not have faith because they have not heard God speak you would be correct. If you were to declare that there are men alive today who do not have faith you would be correct, because scripture declares that: but if you were to assume that they would remain in that condition forever then you would be stating an opinion that the scriptures does not support.

        THIS IS WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY

        No man can come to Jesus unless they are drawn to Him by the father John 6:44.
        Jesus said that he would be lifted up just like the brass serpent was in the wilderness by Moses John 3:14-21. Everyone who was snake bit and were dying when they looked at the brass serpent that was lifted up by Moses were healed Num 21 7-9. Jesus declared that if I be lifted up I WILL DRAG ALL MEN UNTO ME!!! this spake he of his death on the cross John 12:32-33. Paul when preaching to the Greeks said that God has given faith to all because he has risen him up from the dead.

        And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance (assurance is translated from the word pistis which is the greek word for faith) unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. (Act 17:30-31 KJV)

        And God indeed having winked at the times of this ignorance, now declareth unto men that all should every where do penance. Because he hath appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in equity, by the man whom he hath appointed: giving faith to all, by raising him up from the dead. (Act 17:30-31 DRB)

        Now I want you to notice something that the translators did in that last passage because of the 221 times the word pistis is used in the bible 215 times it is translated as faith but only one time is it translated as “assurance”. And by doing that the translators of the King James Version have hidden the fact that God has given faith to all when they know that Jesus was raised from the dead. And combined with the other scriptures I mentioned That means all men must be dragged to look at the cross of Christ and when they do they will be given faith and made whole, healed, saved. It is evident that right now not all men have faith so they have not yet heard God speak, nor have they yet been dragged to look at the serpent that has been lifted up, Christ on the cross. Men who have not heard his voice nor have been dragged to look at the cross of Christ do not have the ability to choose to have true biblical faith.

        Not having faith right now for any man is NOT A PERMANENT CONDITION as you suppose it is!!! According to scriptures In God’s timing he will drag all men to look at the cross of Christ and at the resurrection of Christ and He will quicken them to the fact that when he died they died in him and then he will give them all faith to be saved, and when they look at the serpent raised upon a pole they will repent as they are commanded to do and will be made whole healed and saved. WHEN HE SPEAKS TO A PERSON THEN THEY WILL HAVE FAITH. If he chooses not to speak to them and drag them to the cross at this time, then they do not have faith till he does. And since scripture declares he is going to make sure all men look at Christ then we know that he will speak to them so that they can hear and he will give them all faith, just as they declare.

        Grace and peace Patrick

      • Patrick Strickland October 15, 2013 at 4:58 pm

        4. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. These things command and teach. (1Ti 4:9-11 KJV)

        Now let us deal with the word “specially” and how it is used in scripture. The word translated as specially comes from the greek word μάλιστα Malista and means: especially, chiefly, most of all, above all. The word is used only 12 times in scriptures, and no instance when two items are mentioned does it mean “only”.

        Let us look at several times it is used:

        Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

        Now did that passage read that we are to only do good to them who are of the household of faith? No it did not it clearly said that we are to do good to ALL men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith. We are not to limit doing good to only the household of faith. To read that passage any other way changes the clear meaning.

        Php 4:22 All the saints salute you, ‘chiefly’ (malista) they that are of Caesar’s household.

        Now did it read that only the saints in Caesar’s household salute you? No it read that ALL saints salute you, especially, chiefly, most of all those in the household of Caesar. To read it that only the saints in Caesar’s household are the only ones to salute you would be wrong.

        2Ti 4:13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.

        Now did it read to bring only the parchments? Or did Paul actually ask for not only the cloak he left at Troas but the books, especially the parchments? He wanted all that he mentioned, the cloak, and the books brought to him; but most of all he wanted the parchments brought to him by Timothy when he next visited.

        Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:

        Now are the jews who are the circumcision the only ones being unruly and being deceivers and vain talkers? No there is no way any one would come to that understanding there are many men who are not Jews who fit that criteria, but what he is speaking fits all of them but most of all the jews who are doing it.

        Now I could continue with every instance from scripture where the word malista is used and show the same thing especially with the verse being questioned by you. We trust in a living God WHO IS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, specially those that believe. He is not JUST THE SAVIOUR OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE BUT OF ALL MEN, especially, most of all, of those that believe. NOTHING CAN BE CLEARER FROM SCRIPTURE WHEN THE WORD MALISTA IS UNDERSTOOD PROPERLY.

        Grace and peace Patrick

        • Stephen Helbig October 17, 2013 at 12:09 am

          Patrick ~ It blesses the soul to Hear the Word of God expounded with His Grace and Peace, and we give thanks to the Father of Lights for the His Truth which sets free. ~ … “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change”…

      • Lanny A. Eichert October 17, 2013 at 3:48 am

        Patrick, in answer to all 4, you complain I add to Scripture, but you haven’t noticed you added “all” to captives set free (until he brings all men out of prison and darkness). You haven’t noticed God’s word by Moses to Pharaoh hardened his heart unto his condemnation. You want God dragging all men kicking and screaming. You want a clearer statement God saves ONLY those with faith, yet you have nothing clearly saying God saves after death.

        Like I have previously stated there are numerous Biblical instances of individuals saved in this mortality and even named, but you don’t have even a single instance of a named individual saved after they died in unbelief. Now that’s a very clear statement that only persons in this life who have faith are saved and nobody else. What more clearer statement do you want? You’re not going to get one, because you, like Alice, say that just because it doesn’t say it doesn’t mean it isn’t so to your universal salvation or that punishment isn’t eternal.

        • Patrick Strickland October 21, 2013 at 1:55 pm

          Hi Lanny:

          I really have no problem with you adding anything you want to, to any scripture that you read.

          I however try to live by a very simple rule: Only add what is related to the topic at hand if I can find at least two scriptures that say what I am saying. If I cannot find at least two scriptures then I am not going to add ‘My opinion’ to the word of God. Now I did notice that I added “all” when speaking about the prisoners being set free; but only because we are dealing with the ministry of Jesus which is called the acceptable time, the day of salvation; Setting prisoners free is part of salvation, and scripture does declare that Jesus spoke to the prisoners in hell who died during the flood. If you want to think that he did not set them free you are free to believe that. But because of the following Scriptures say concerning his intentions to save ALL: I added “all” to prisoners he set free since it is clear in scriptures that God will have all men saved and Jesus ministry was to open the prison doors so that the captives would be set free.

          1. God WILL HAVE ALL men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. I Tim 2:4
          2. We trust in a living God who is the Savior of ALL men, especially those that believe. I Tim 4:10
          3. God commands ALL the ends of the earth to look and be saved. Isa 45:22
          4. God is NOT WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9
          5. God commands ALL men everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30
          6. God sent Jesus to be the Savior of the world 1 John 4:14
          7. Jesus is the Word of God John 1:1-14
          8. The word sent by God will not return to him without accomplishing what it was sent it to do Isa 55:10,11
          9. Jesus is the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. John 1:29
          10.When Jesus died for ALL, ALL died. 2 Cor 5:14,15
          11. In the fullness of time God is going to gather together into one ALL into Christ Jesus. Eph1:10
          12. Jesus came to reconcile ALL into himself. Col 1:20
          13. God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself and has given to us the ministry of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:17-21
          14. FOR AS (gar hosper Greek literally reads “Because just as exactly like”) in Adam ALL die; EVEN SO (kai houto greek literally ready “and in this way”) in Christ ALL shall be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22
          15. God works all things after the counsel of his own will. Eph 1:11
          16. God works in us to do and to will his good pleasure, Phil 2:13
          17. God works ALL in ALL I Cor 12:6
          18. God will be ALL IN ALL when ALL enemies are placed under Christ’s feet and he submits all under his jurisdiction to the Father. I Cor 15:25-28 Eph 1:20-23
          19. God declares the end from the beginning and his counsel shall stand and he will do all his pleasure. Isa 46:10
          20. God will do his will and no one in heaven or in the earth shall stay his hand. Dan 4:35
          21. This word has gone forth in righteousness and shall not return to him, and he has sworn by his name that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear that in Him they have righteousness and strength. Isa 45:21-25
          22. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus who of God is made unto us wisdom righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. I Cor 1:30
          23. We know that Jesus is indeed Christ the Saviour of the world. John 4:42
          24. Jesus said that if he be lifted up he will draw ALL men to himself. John 12:32,33

          Jesus is the saviour of the world if he does not do his ministry of reconciliating all to God and releasing those who are captive and releasing the prisoners, including all in hell then how is he the saviour of the world if he really does not actually save all? How can he who is sent to be the saviour of the world return to God without actually saving the world? Jesus did not die for just a few but he died for ALL, and we know from scripture that when he died for all, all died.

          Most of us in this modern world do not truly comprehend what it means to serve a king. If a king commands something then that is what he wants and he will not settle for anything less than that. We serve a king who has the power and wisdom to bring all he has commanded to pass, including raising the dead to accomplish what he has commanded to do. He has commanded all the ends of the earth to look and be saved, He will have ALL men saved therefore through the ministry of christ he is reconciling the world to himself by releasing the captives and opening the prison door for all men. Remember scripture calls this the day of salvation.

          Now Lanny if you want to add to scripture the clause that only during our life do we have a chance to be saved but after we die there is no way we can be saved then you must provide at least two scriptures that state that. If you cannot provide those verses then there is no way you will ever convince me that that idea is actually scripturally established as truth. Reading into a verse then quoting another verse as proof where you also read into it that idea is not really proof at all. Declaring like you do that it is truth even if it is not mentioned in scriptures is not establishing it as truth.

          *** I am trying to establish truth and the only way for me to do that is to have at least two or three witnesses from scripture. Without the those witnesses then it is a word that is not established as truth but is only just an opinion of what you think scripture say.***

          During this lifetime In our Father’s house he has vessels of honor and dishonor He hardens men like Pharaoh and he has mercy on his vessels of honor but they both are still part of his house. God uses men he has hardened to bring tribulation to his vessels of honor so that they may grow stronger in His grace SO THAT HE CAN HAVE OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW FORTH HIS LOVE AND POWER TO THE MEN OF THE EARTH…till eventually they become manifested sons of God in the image of Christ who will will have the same ministry Jesus has and they will bring all the rest of creation into the very same glory that they have in Christ. Many will die because of the judgment of God, but scripture declares that he concludes all in unbelief and he has mercy upon all Rom 11:32. Now how is He going to have mercy upon all if all do not get a chance to follow the command of God to look and be saved and to repent? If they die and go to hell and never get a chance to be saved or to repent as you and most of religious Christianity who follow the traditions of men handed down to us from men who refuse to forgive those who criticized and opposed them, then how does God show mercy to ALL? How does the sworn word of God come to pass.
          Lanny has said “Like I have previously stated there are numerous Biblical instances of individuals saved in this mortality and even named, but you don’t have even a single instance of a named individual saved after they died in unbelief. Now that’s a very clear statement that only persons in this life who have faith are saved and nobody else.”

          Actually this is nothing but another logical fallacy called an ‘Argument from Silence’ on your part. How is it a clear statement when NO statement is being made that says just what you want it to? And as a so called “clear” statement it completely contradicts the sworn word of God and the will of God that is actually declared clearly in scriptures. In order for it to be an established word from scripture you need at the very least two definite scriptures that declare exactly what you are imagining is a clear word.

          Unlike you I don’t need the name of a particular “dead” man repenting in scripture in order to actually believe what he has sworn to do and what he clearly declares is his will for all men to be saved. However, I do have scripture that declares that God will restore Samaria, Sodom, Moab, The natural branches that were broken off because of unbelief can be grafted back in when they repent. A natural branch when broken off is now dead and if that branch is not grafted back in in a few days then if men wait too long to graft it back into the tree, it will not live to produce fruit it will remain a dead branch on the tree. A Natural branch can be grafted back in if you do it in a few days before all the life leaves it. However we are not speaking about natural branches but about God who can make a thoroughly dead rod grow leaves and produce fruit so it would be no problem for him to give a dead man the opportunity to repent so he can then give them life and graft them back into the vine. Only a few are saved during this lifetime. And God is preparing them to become the manifested sons of God so that they can minister the day of salvation and all that entails and bring ALL CREATION into the very same liberty of glory that they have been given in Christ Jesus a glory that changes them into the very same image that he has from glory into glory. The rest are broken off Yet eventually scripture declares that ALL Israel shall be saved and it is no stretch of the imagination that that means that they are grafted back in only after they repent.

          When Christ died for ALL then ALL died so technically in God’s eyes all repentance is after death; even though we may be alive we still died when He died. And if the process of death takes your mortal body then there is still available for all mankind a time when they will be able to repent and be saved. Has to be or what God has sworn to do will not be accomplished, and his word that has gone forth in righteousness returns to God in failure not accomplishing what he sent it to do, which structurally is also an impossibility.

          Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: WHO HAS DECLARED THIS FROM ANCIENT TIME (Check back and read number 19 in this post)? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I HAVE SWORN BY MYSELF, THE WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND SHALL NOT RETURN, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
          (Isa 45:21-25 KJV)
          For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. For men verily swear by the greater: and AN OATH FOR CONFIRMATION IS TO THEM AN END OF ALL STRIFE. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
          (Heb 6:13-19 KJV)

          SEE LANNY GOD SWORE TO SAVE ALL MEN, and has declared this from ancient times even from the beginning and THEREFORE IT IS IMMUTABLE AND NOW IMPOSSIBLE FOR IT NOT TO COME TO PASS, no matter what you or anyone else claims to the contrary. IT MUST COME TO PASS. HIS OATH OF CONFIRMATION IS TO THEM THAT BELIEVE THE END OF ALL STRIFE. But obviously to you his oath is not good enough.

          Lanny if Jesus sworn word in scripture TO SAVE ALL MEN is not good enough for you to put an end to this controversy and strife between us; then nothing I can say will convince you of what his will is for ALL men.

          Lanny your entire case that you bring forth in your last post relies totally on what you read into scriptures; However My case relies on his sworn word found in scriptures. For me his sworn word and command for all the ends to look and to be saved and his command for all men to repent is more then enough to prove all men are going to repent and be saved in his timing. And from scriptures we know that the wicked part in each of us is fully dealt with in Christ and will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming in us to be glorified and that wicked persona will have no part in the kingdom of God.

          When and if you can actually produce at least two scriptures that actually declare what you are reading into them: that only during our life do we have a chance to be saved but after we die there is no way we can be saved…that only persons in this life who have faith are saved and nobody else; then you might have a case. Nonetheless without those scriptures you really have to face the fact you do not have anything to stand on but opinion that the tradition of men has taught you. Good luck finding them.

        • Patrick Strickland October 24, 2013 at 3:16 pm

          “What more clearer statement do you want? You’re not going to get one, because you, like Alice, say that just because it doesn’t say it doesn’t mean it isn’t so to your universal salvation or that punishment isn’t eternal.”

          Dear Lanny I want scripture to actually state it in at at least two places in order for it to be established as truth. You can’t read into every scripture you bring up what you want whenever you want. You must have clear statements that state just what you are saying found in scripture,That dear sir is what scripture requires for it to be established as truth.

          2Co_13:1 I am coming to you this third time. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” Deut. 19:15 (KJ3)

          Lanny dear sir do you not realize that what you are claiming is not a minor biblical doctrine but is a major biblical doctrine that millions of Christians claim to believe and claim to be true. Therefore it must be established and found clearly in scriptures. And in this particular case if scripture does not say outright in at least two verses that after death there is no chance for repentance then without them there is absolutely no way it can be established as truth. If God said that there is no repentance after death that would prove your point, but since I have never found a single verse that declares that I don’t understand why you continue to sit there and say it doesn’t matter if it is not there but is still true. To me that is a totally absurd statement made by someone trying to defend their religion but not really interested in finding truth from scripture.

          The funny thing is Lanny you are absolutely right I am not going to get a clearer statement then the imagined it is there statements that you continue to make because it simply is not there. If it was you would already have given them. Now if they are there as scripture demands for them to be, to be established as truth, I would appreciate for you to provide them.

          Sadly, so far, to me there is absolutely no scriptures that clearly support, no after death repentance. So that idea falls to the way side just like God foreknowing most to hell eternally. Both ideas are not clearly found in scripture yet claimed by you to be true even in spite of no clear bible statements that say what you are stating.

  • Lanny A.Eichert November 15, 2013 at 4:28 pm

    Patrick, in the perfect literal Holy Bible you still have no two or three witnesses named in the Bible who have been saved after having died in unbelief. You have no two or three witnesses {verses, texts} exhorting anybody who died in unbelief to repent and believe. Your fantasy lacks specific examples and exhortations/instructions to the unbelieving dead.

    Your universal salvation is nothing but fantasy. There’s no reality to it, since there are no two or three Biblical witnesses.

    • Patrick Strickland November 30, 2013 at 5:11 pm

      Hi Lanny I almost missed this response back to me… Sorry for taking so long in responding. I do love you dear sir and I truly understand your frustration at proving your point.

      I have provided many examples from scripture but you refuse to accept any of them because of the terror of eternal hell that you believe is there in scripture.

      1. Sodom‘s fiery judgment is eternal [olam]. But only until God returns them to their former state (Ez. 16:53-55; Ju. 7). if they are returned without repentance all he has to do is the works he did in Capernuam in order for them to repent. (Matt 11:23)
      2. A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord‘s congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).
      3. Israel‘s affliction is incurable. But only until the Lord restores health and heals her wounds (Jer. 30:12, 17).
      4. Samaria‘s wounds are incurable. But only until the Lord brings them back and restores them (Mic. 1:9; Ez. 16:53).
      5. Egypt and Elam will rise no more. But only until the Lord brings back their captives (Jer. 25:27; 49:39; Ez. 29:14).
      6. Moab is destroyed. But only until the Lord brings back the captives of Moab (Jer. 48:4, 42, 47).
      7. The natural branches are broken off the tree Christ and restored only after they repent. (Rom 11)

      I don’t think you truly realize that we are ALL dead in God’s eyes because of our trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13) And that ALL repentance is really after death.

      Jesus came to call sinners to repentance not the righteous. (Matt 9:13; Mark 2:17; Luke 5:32) God has commanded all men to repent (Acts 17:30)!! God is NOT WILLING for any man to perish but for ALL to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) Jesus ministry is to set the prisoners free. (Isa 49:7-13; Isa 42:5-9: Isa 61:1-3) And the only prisoners he preached to in scripture were those rebellious men who died in the flood who were prisoners in hell. (1Pe 3:19-20 KJV) He gave them the very same message he gave us who are dead in our trespasses and sins and then he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men even to those who are rebellious.

      So how did you repent since you were dead in God’s eyes? when you know that answer then you will know how those who have died get to repent. I will give you a hint the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.

      Grace and peace Patrick

      • Lanny A. Eichert December 9, 2013 at 2:58 pm

        Patrick, you fantasize what is not specifically stated and still do NOT have a single soul recorded in the Holy Bible who was saved after physically dying in unbelief. You fantasize more than only the Elect are saved. There is no return of Sodom to her former state is the point God made through Ezekiel which you can’t seem to understand. Sodom was destroyed never to return was a well known Jewish doctrine. You try to strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel.

      • Lanny A. Eichert December 14, 2013 at 1:35 am

        Patrick says: I don’t think you truly realize that we are ALL dead in God’s eyes because of our trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13) And that ALL repentance is really after death.

        Oh, how you twist one unrelated thing into another. A natural mortal man is dead in trespasses and sins {Ephesians 2: 1} but is “quickened” or made ALIVE in verses 5 & 13, so that he is NO LONGER dead during mortality because he has faith. Who do you think Paul was addressing at Ephesus and Colosse? Physically dead people? No, he was writing to people who could read what was written with pen and ink: mortals.

        Patrick, I have news for you, “Believers are ALIVE in God’s eyes from the moment they first believed, from the moment of their conversion, from the moment they stopped believing the lies and started believing the truth. Can a dead man repent? Certainly not. Only living people can repent. A dead man doesn’t know what he needs to repent. Only a living man has spiritual insight to know what he needs to repent. I’m writing about spiritual death and spiritual life. Repentance comes AFTER “quickening” as every good Calvinist knows. There is no repentance after physical death. Why are you trying to trick me with words? That’s deceit, old man.

        Don’t you know I have questioned whether any of you know anything about conversion. If you’re ignorant about conversion, then you’re not saved, you’re not Christians, and you’re going to burn in hell’s fire forever.

  • Lanny A. Eichert December 14, 2013 at 1:27 am

    Patrick says: I don’t think you truly realize that we are ALL dead in God’s eyes because of our trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13) And that ALL repentance is really after death.

    Oh, how you twist one unrelated thing into another. A natural mortal man is dead in trespasses and sins {Ephesians 2: 1} but is “quickened” or made ALIVE in verses 5 & 13, so that he is NO LONGER dead during mortality because he has faith. Who do you think Paul was addressing at Ephesus and Colosse? Physically dead people? No, he was writing to people who could read what was written with pen and ink: mortals.

    Patrick, I have news for you, “Believers are ALIVE in God’s eyes from the moment they first believed, from the moment of their conversion, from the moment they stopped believing the lies and started believing the truth. Can a dead man repent? Certainly not. Only living people can repent. A dead man doesn’t know what he needs to repent. Only a living man has spiritual insight to know what he needs to repent. I’m writing about spiritual death and spiritual life. Repentance comes AFTER “quickening” as every good Calvinist knows. There is no repentance after physical death. Why are you trying to trick me with words? That’s deceit, old man.

    Don’t you know I have questioned whether any of you know anything about conversion. If you’re ignorant about conversion, then you’re not saved, you’re not Christians, and you’re going to burn in hell’s fire forever. I mean just consider Patrick says: I don’t think you truly realize that we are ALL dead in God’s eyes because of our trespasses and sins. (Eph 2:1-5; Col 2:13) And that ALL repentance is really after death.

    Oh, how you twist one unrelated thing into another. A natural mortal man is dead in trespasses and sins {Ephesians 2: 1} but is “quickened” or made ALIVE in verses 5 & 13, so that he is NO LONGER dead during mortality because he has faith. Who do you think Paul was addressing at Ephesus and Colosse? Physically dead people? No, he was writing to people who could read what was written with pen and ink: mortals.

    Patrick, I have news for you, “Believers are ALIVE in God’s eyes from the moment they first believed, from the moment of their conversion, from the moment they stopped believing the lies and started believing the truth. Can a dead man repent? Certainly not. Only living people can repent. A dead man doesn’t know what he needs to repent. Only a living man has spiritual insight to know what he needs to repent. I’m writing about spiritual death and spiritual life. Repentance comes AFTER “quickening” as every good Calvinist knows. There is no repentance after physical death. Why are you trying to trick me with words? That’s deceit, old man.

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